Conference vicki::boats

    
    
    	In order to determine which "style" is best for you and your folks,
    	you need to spend some time thinking about the typical usage.  If
    	your folks are going to be pretty much "fair weather" boaters, then
    	the cuddy probably isn't a big deal.  On the other hand, if they 
    	plan on doing alot of fishing, and don't care what the weather is,
    	then being able to get relief from both the weather and your bowels
    	would be a real plus.  Some people spend 4+ hours a day on their
    	boat, others take theirs out once a weekend to go get an ice cream.
    	If you don't know enough about what the actual usage will be, spend
    	some time on other people's boats and get the feel of it.  The boat
    	market is VERY soft, and won't be turning around for awhile, at
    	best, so don't worry about missing the "Deal of the Decade" at
    	one of the dealers.
    
    	As for Fays, I have never dealt with them, but a friend has
    	purchased two boats from them and has been very pleased.
    
    	good luck...
    

Thanks for the info. None of us are really into fishing, and don't ski. Most
of the usage will be for touring around the lake and site seeing. They will
definitely not be the types for going out on rough days or when the weather
is marginal. They will be retiring up there, and feel with a house on the
lake (and a very nice breakwater, dock and beach just constructed) one
should have a boat right :-). And who am I to argue :-) :-).

I imagine I will use it much more than they do .....

Frank

    As one who has moored his boat at Fays for the last 5 years, I can
    state that they(in general) and Merrill Fay in particular are of very
    high integrity. Merrill is the sort who makes deals on a handshake
    and can be expected to stand by his word. I don't  know all of the
    salesman who work for him, but have found his operatioon (2nd
    generation, since the mid 1940's) to be totally honest. There must be
    8-10 DECcies (mostly sailboaters) who keep their boats there.
    If you want further references to Fays Boat Yard, I suggest that you
    post your question in MSCSSE::SAILING.
    
    Bill
    

    Another very reputable marina is Thurston's, at the bridge in Weirs Beach.
They sell Celebrity, Cobalt, Crestliner (aluminum only), and Harris Flote-Bote.

The Thurston brothers were very highly recommended to us, and we pass-on our
own recommendation to others.

We bought a Crestliner bowrider from them in 1988 (they still made 
fiberglass boats then) and are very satisfied with the entire operation 
(they perform "perpetual care" on *The Newfound Princess* ).

Try looking at their Celebrity's or Cobalt bowriders.

    Having just gone through the bow rider/cuddy decision I can identify
    with your dilemma. We also were looking to use the boat on a large lake
    (Champlain) from a lakeside house. At first we were leaning strongly
    toward the cuddy, mainly due to a small child having a place to take a
    nap, the potty, and "gee, wouldn't it be fun to do an overnight stay
    sometimes". We were looking in the 21' size.
    
    Once we really thought about the way we would be using the boat ( and
    the way we used the old boat) we came to the following conclusions:
    
    1- The 21' cuddy's have a pretty small cabin, not one where we would
    stay overnight in very often. The 23' you are looking for is certainly
    bigger. Also, the cuddy cabin boats have smaller cockpit areas since
    thge windshield on most 21's is placed further toward the stern to get
    cabin size.
    
    2 - We mainly use the boat for touring, swimming, and skiing, all of
    which are done not far from home. The boat is very often used as a
    portable swim/picnic platform and the bow seats provide alot of room to
    sit or stretch out.
    
    3 - We will keep the boat for a long time and the child will grow up and
    not need naps or the potty as frequently.
                       
    In short, we bought the bowrider. Like you, my parents will also be
    using the boat ( they are actually the majority stockholder). I do not
    know the age or condition of your parents, mine are 72 and quite
    active. We moor the boat in front of their house and I wanted something
    my father would feel comfortable handling. Climbing over the cuddy
    cabin to get to the bow seemed to be quite and effort on most boats of
    this size, where the bowrider was an easy walk to the tip of the bow,
    even easier than his old closed-bow runabout. This also applies to boat
    size. My impression of 23 footers is that they were considerable larger
    than the 21's (more freeboard, weight, etc.) and again a factor would
    be how much boat can your father (and you) handle, especially if you do
    not have boating experience.
    
    These are some thoughts from someone who has spent the past few months
    looking at a LOT of boats from many different brands. I would agree
    with others not to purchase a boat just because it is a good deal. I
    searched for a boat size, power, and style which would fit our expected
    usage and a manufacturer which represented what I felt was the best
    value.
    
    Call me (DTN:221-5679 or 617-895-5679) and I would be glad to discuss
    what I found and why we decided what we did.
    
    Larry
    
    

    
    
    A good comprimise between a cuddy and a bow rider is a walk around
    cabin. I have a friend who has a 21' Dixie with a 125 on a Bracket
    drive, and another freind who has a 23' PRO LINE with a 200HP on 
    BAracket drive. Grat Boats and lots of room (a BIG cooler with a seat
    cushion on tyhe top makes a great aft seat)- lots of
    flexibility/visibility /and fun to drive.
    
     THat's my nexboat.
    
    Dick

    One of the most important factors in matching a boat's layout to your
    intended use is exactly what is touched upon in .5.  Unless you
    are considering a bowrider, all small boats with cabins (small = under
    25') have a factor which you never see in the specs which is ratio of
    outside to inside room.   It's even hard to judge this ratio in person
    unless you bring along the number of people you intend to cruise with
    and sit them all down.  While looking at a boat in the 20-22' range I
    saw an amazing range in this ratio.   Like among 22' boats, there was
    the Larson Delta cruiser with a teeny tiny cuddy but very large cockpit
    with a rear bench plus back-to-back seats plus a useabul foredeck for
    hanging around.   The other extreme was a Bayliner 2255 Ciera which
    actually managed to put an enclosed head, small Galley, and aft cabin
    inside - the outside space was needless to say cramped - I didn't
    even consider the foredeck usable because it had this huge bulge from
    trying to put decent headroom inside.
    
    I wound up buying a boat with more like a 50-50 compromise, but no one
    ever goes in the cabin except to use the head and I've never been on it
    overnight.  So in retrospect I went for a compromise layout which
    wasn't quite right.
    
    Now this nice 32-footer I've been looking at doesn't have to make these
    compromises.... :-)

    Be sure that your intended use waterways allow the use of 'houseboats'.
    I have run into a number of lakes in New Hampshire on which
    'houseboats are not allowed'.  A houseboat is a 'boat with sleeping or
    toilet facilities aboard' according the legal definition here.  I would
    like to know what drives that law... is it true environmental concern,
    or, waterfront property owners rising up against another form of public
    use of the waterway?
    
    Jeff

	Have you considered a pontoon type boat? I don't know much about them
but they seem to fit the fair weather, puttering around category and they
offer a lot of room.  

    I have a 22' walkaround cuddy cabin Angler.  This is a great fishing
    boat with 360 degree fishing ability.  The cabin is small, I cannot
    stand up in it (about 5' headroom).  One could spend a weekend or
    overnight as it would sleep 2 adequately.  As far as being in the cabin
    underway in bad weather, I wouldn't even attempt it.  The people who
    have, only laster 15-20 minutes before they came up for air.
    
    The small cabin is good for storing fishing equipment, electronics, and
    other stuff one would normally carry to/from the boat.  Also provides
    some privacy for nature calls.
    
    I mostly fish; therefore the more deck space the better.  If you're a
    member of the champagne and quiche crowd, the go for more creature
    comforts.
    
    Gordon (still looking for the perfect boat)
    

    I have been on WINNI for over 17 years and know most of the boat
    dealers, (Merrill Faye was a neighbor for 3 years on Varney Point), and
    his reputation is one of the best.  I see you are looking for a medium
    price boat and the Chapperal is a good boat for the money.  I
    personally have a formula (about 15 DEC'ies at Lakeport Landing). 
    Another place to investigate in Shep Brown's this marina handles the
    wellcraft.  I think you should also consider which side of the lake you
    are on also.  If you buy a boat in Paugus bay (Irwins, Lakeport,
    Thurstons, Channel marinas) and are on the opposite side of the lake
    and have problems the towing gets quite expensive.  Not that a new boat
    should have problems but sometimes ....  Another thing to think about
    with the bowrider are the conditions of lake Winnie (since you are
    looking at the right length) you can go out in terrific sunshine and
    1 hour later be hitting quite high winds and waves.  The bowriders tend
    to have a lower freeboard that a non-bowrider.  My only suggestion is
    to take test rides on lousey days.... We really get our share out
    there.  I live in Gilford NH so if you have any questions about a
    dealer or a particular model don't hesitate to call me.  
    
    
    mimi biro
    
    

I want to thank everyone very much for their comments so far.

We went to a local dealer (Shrewsbury, Ma) and looked at the Chaparral
2300sx (bowrider) this morning. We have only seen the 2350 (cuddy version)
in person before and liked what we saw. The 2300sx is really great. Lots of
room, with a small space with a porta-potti and sink. Theres not lots of
room in the potti-hole, but its big enough for the occasional use. The
room up front in the bow is great, and if you use the center cushion, you
get one large sun deck! There are lots of storage spaces as well. We really
liked it. This was a 91, with a 230 hp mercruiser.

We got a price from this dealer, who seemed like he wouldn't really go
any lower (probably would if you whipped out your check book). Price
seemed high to me. We went home and called the saleperson at Fay's that
we had talked to before, and he said he could do much better on ordering
a 92. He also recommended the Volvo over the mercruiser, and thought that
230 Hp was a bit too small for that boat (weights in at slightly over
4000 lbs). He was great over the phone, and quoted a starting price at
over $2000 less that the other place. So, we are going up there this
weekend to talk with him, and the chances are that we will end up with
a boat if we can agree on a deal. It will most likely be the Chaparral
2300sx (bowrider) with a 260 hp volvo drive.

In scanning this conference, I didn't find any notes with anything bad
to say about the Chaparral or the Volvo. Are there any further comments?
Fay's can equip the boat with either drive, so its up to us. They are
a full service shop for both drives.

Is there any advice any of you experienced boat buyers might have on
how to deal on a new boat? Can you expect to deal on some of the options,
and perhaps get them to throw in certain items?

How important do you think a VHF radio and/or depthfinder is on a boat
that will primarily be used on lake Winni?

Any other words of wisdom before we take the big plunge :-).

Thanks again for the comments so far!

Frank

    I can't see how a bowrider is appropriate for anyone who expects to hit
    any 'real' weather.  The bowriders 'must' scoop up water in rough seas.
    Do they?  I can't imagine being out on the ocean on a rough day with a
    bowrider.  What a set up for 'submarining'.  Are my perceptions correct
    with what people have experienced, or, do the bowrider ride up over
    high breaking waves better than they appear they would?
    
    Jeff

One thing that I can say for sure, is that we will NEVER take the boat out
on the ocean. None of us are ocean fans, and my mother especially is afraid
of being out on the ocean.

Lake Winni will be where the boat will stay. I know that it can get very
rough out there however. I understand that sitting up front on a bowrider
opens one up to getting wet on a rough day. However, if it gets that bad,
I don't think anyone would want to be up there anyway (no one would want
to be in the cuddy during such weather either). I would assume that if
you want to keep the water out, you can leave the canvas over the bow,
and just sit in the back. The 23' Chaparral rides very high. We took the
cuddy out on a very rough day (last Labor day weekend), and even hitting
some vary large waves only splashed little water over the bow. The
bowrider version of the boat rides just as high. (Sorry if I'm not getting
all the terminology right).

I have seen some of the Formulas around the lake. Pretty slick looking
boats. They look to me to be more of a speed/ski boat that an all around
touring boat, but I may be wrong.

I think that from our experiences so far, and from what I have read in
this file, that we will probably end up buying from Fay's. My parents
house (where the boat will be mored), is in Robert's Cove. It's a bit
of a trek to Gilford, but doesn't seem that it would be that bad. We
will most likely have Fay's store the boat for the winter.

From reading this file, it seems that finding a good dealer that does
good service to tough. Fay's seems to be good at both. It would seem
logical that as busy as the lake is up there, that buying from a local
(good) dealer may be advantagous if you find you need service. Am I
correct is assuming this, or am I all wet :-).

Keep any comments comming!

Frank

    I agree with the previous notes as to bowriders taking water over the
    bow.  I have a 22' walkaround and have taken the tops if a couple of
    waves in the mouth of the merrimack.  This was mainly due to
    inexperience, but still a scary thought looking in the back of the boat
    watching 1 1/2 feet of water trying to drain out of two 1 inch holes.
    
    I have also went over one wave and through the next one in the same
    place, with the wave breaking on the windshield (engine don't fail me
    now).
    
    I don't know what it's like on a big lake like Winnie, but the ocean
    can change in an instant and I imagine the large lake is the same.
    
    My next boat will have an enclosed bow (full cabin) or a lot of flare
    such as a Grady.  I don't want to ever take another wave.
    
    Gordon
    

Well, we did it! We bought (ordered) a 1992 Chaparral 2300sx yesterday from
Fay's Boat Yard in Gilford, NH. I think that we got a pretty decent deal.
The salesman was very straightforward with us (which we liked) on the price.
All their boats include a standard package of accessories (life jackets,
anchor, etc) and 15% off any accessories at their marina for 1 year.

Now, this is definitely going to be the longest winter of our lives!!!!!!

The boat should be in sometime around February, so we can at least look
at it and fondle it long before spring :-).

We did go with the 245hp volvo duo-prop.

I want to thank everyone for their comments.

Now that we have a boat, we need to think about some of the accesories.
This seems to be the time of year to purchase such things since its the
end of the season.

It seems that everyone feels that a VHF radio is a good idea. It seems
to make a lot of sense to me as well, and they are really not that
expensive. I browsed though a note in this conference about VHF radios.
Rather a lengthy topic. It seems to me that a basic portable unit will
do the job. Is their any reason to go with a larger or more featureful
unit? Are there some features that are considered extremely desirable?

The other thing that we think we'd like to have is a depthfinder/fishfinder.
There seems to be lots of models of these. Some even include a Loran, which
we would not need (given that we will be staying on lake Winni). I like
the units that give you a nice graphical representation of the bottom.
Is there a good note in this conference on these devices, or can someone
comment on brands/models/prices/places to buy here?

Thanks again for all who have helped with all the very useful info so far!

Frank

    Welcome to the world of boating, one of the most delightful ways to
    spend those warm lazy days!  It almost makes it feel good to be wadding
    up that folding money and throwing it over the side.
    
    I'm sure you'll be happy with Fay's.  THis is my second season there
    and I cant think of much bad to say about them.  They are decent
    people.  
    
    For all you ever wanted to know about depth/fish finders check out
    the fishing conference,  wahoo::fishing-v2.
    
    See you on the water next spring.
    
                                                  Tom

    	Now's the time for a boating course. It may help protect your
    investment.
    
    Paul

    re: .-1
    
    I agree 100%, besides it will give you a discount on your insurance as
    will some other safety equipment as VHF and depthfinder.
    
    Gordon
    

Could you supply some information about these courses, eg, where are they
given, what they encompass, how long they run etc?

Thanks,
Frank

    Moderator hat on...
    
    This is getting a bit side tracked.  I've just created a new topic
    for 1991/1992 safety courses.  Please take any further discussion 
    on safety courses to topic 923.
    
    See notes 237 and 564 for previous safety course topics.
    
    Thanks!
    Rick

OK, thanks Rick.