Conference vicki::boats

    I believe "red dot" is the manufacturer. It refers to a heater much
    like your automobile. It is a unit you mount in the floor or bulkhead
    that has a small radiator like your automobile heater core with one or
    two, depending on model, 12V fans mounted behind the core. You plumb
    the hot water off your engine through the core with heater hose and
    turn on the 12 V fans and you have heat. It is best to have the unit
    mounted lower than the coolant fill cap on your engine and have fresh
    water cooling. You usually take the water off the engine where it exits
    the block so it is at its hottest, run it through the heater and then
    back to where it originally went. They work great and put out a lot of
    heat. You can even mount the unit low in the boat and build ducts to
    raise the hot air to almost anywhere you want it.

    
    Just a thought -
    
    	If your only intent is to keep the chill off you might consider
    	an oil burning trawler lamp.
    
    	I forgot to look up the note number; but, Alan discusses his lamp
    	in the Sailing notes file.
    
    	I have a lamp made by "Aladin" - picked it up in the Kittery
        Trading Post.  The cost is fairly low - $25 to $100 depending up
    	how pretty you want it. (Mine has a Teak Base with a Square Rigger
    	carved in it).
    
    	The Aladin lamp uses a Mantel (neat system with no pressure).
    	You light it low - warm up the mantel - then turn it up --
    	It gives the light of a 60 watt bulb when turned up and a little
    	lower it has a nice soft (romantic) glow.
    
    	I have a 34' Silverton Convertible & on a damp rainy day early
    	or late in the year it warms the whole boat up.  We use it at
    	anchor & dock side both (it's nicer than an electric)
    
    	The only draw back is you don't want it on underway for obvious
    	reasons.
    
    	                   Let's get the covers off,
                                                      Lou

    I was looking for a similar type heater to put in my cruiser.  Then I
    started making coffee each morning and found that the stove took the
    chill off real well.
    
    If you've got a stove,  try using it for a few minutes to take of the
    chill.
    
    
    Steve
    

    
    
    	After touring my favorite JY the other day, I noticed that the
    Suzuki Samauri has a one-piece heater core/fan. (The majority were
    two-piece setups, fan near passenger and core in the center of the
    vehicle).
    
    	I thought, that a small unit like the Samauri's could be mounted
    quite easily in the Nautique, but some pretty obvious questions came
    to mind.
    
    	1) Do heaters in open boats really do anything, take the chill off
    		the toes, at least? (Reg?)
    
    	2) Will the typical inboard engine temperature of about 160 (in
    		chilly water) be high enough for such a setup?
    
    	3) What about water circulation?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Rick
    
    	
        

re <<< Note 815.4 by KAHALA::SUTER "We dun't need no stinkin' skis, (sometimes)" >>>
>                           -< Suzuki Ski Nautique? >-

>	After touring my favorite JY the other day, I noticed that the
>    Suzuki Samauri has a one-piece heater core/fan. (The majority were
>    two-piece setups, fan near passenger and core in the center of the
>    vehicle).

	Hmmm, sounds good  - -  so, how many of 'em are currently 
decorating the kitchen table ?  one for me, one for Doug, one for 
Roger, etc.  I hope you got at least a 6-pack of 'em.

>    	I thought, that a small unit like the Samauri's could be mounted
>    quite easily in the Nautique, but some pretty obvious questions came
>    to mind.
    
>    	1) Do heaters in open boats really do anything, take the chill off
>    		the toes, at least? (Reg?)

	Gerry tells me that the one in his m/c can help a little bit 
if you wrap a towel around yourself and let the hot air  "blow up your 
skirt"  (his quote exactly)  errrr  the toes can freeze if I can just 
thaw my<censored>    This guy lives on the lake and carries a milk jug 
of hot water to his boat so he can pour a cupful in each glove and ski 
binding, then slosh some down the front zipper of his wetsuit.  Says 
it works.  The mastermark heater he has is said to be junky, the core 
rotted out and the auto store (Tuck's in Hudson) found him a direct 
car/truck replacement for it at 1/2 the quoted cost from m'mark, now 
the fan bearing is starting to squeal.

>    	2) Will the typical inboard engine temperature of about 160 (in
>    		chilly water) be high enough for such a setup?

	Higher thermostats are available - in february you will 
	probably believe that ANYTHING is better than nothing.
    
>    	3) What about water circulation?

	Take off from the thermostat housing and feed that to the 
lower point, return the higher point to an exhaust manifold.  Include 
quick disconnects in both lines so you can drain it all at the ramp, 
I think it should go about like this; 


	HEATER|>======MALE-/-FEMALE=======EXHAUST MANIFOLD
	      |	
	CORE  |<======FEMALE-/-MALE=======THERMOSTAT HOUSING
			^	^
		    quick disconnects

	Use 1 inch i/d hose throughout, it doesn't take sharp turns 
easily.  Try to arrange things so the hoses enter the heater core from
underneath and everything droops down when the diconnects are
uncoupled, then everything will drain.  Any time you want it out of
there for repairs or the summer, just connect the exhaust manifold
female connector to the thermostat housing male connector. 
    
	I don't know what will happen to flow rates, you're providing 
a longer path and thats going to show a higher resistance (OK, 
"impedance").   According to whether the pump pushes separate ports
(I'm pretty sure MINE does, but I don't know about YOURS) you could
get approx half your waste cooling water {GOOD} or next to nothing
going through the heater (and the exhaust manifold thats down line
from it) this case would be BAD ! 
        
	Lemme know when my unit is ready for pick-up  (-:

	Reg

PS  I don't think the Samuri is CG approved, therefore don't do this 
project.  Your ins co won't pay if you have a roll-over accident with 
a non cg approved heater.  Are lots of them available ?  I wonder why.

	
PPS  Improper use of this product can have serious consequences 
including, but not limited to;  property damage, serious injury,
death, the loss of your job, massachusetts driving licence and Boston
City library card.  YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED !

    I would go to any automotive supply store as well as check the infamous
    JC whitney catalog. If you want more heat, set up your manifolds,
    exhaust elbow like you had FWC. Instead og the raw water leaving the
    block, going into the exhaust manifold and then discharging INTERNALLY
    to the exhaust elbow, Install a blocking gasket, an use the external
    connection on the exhaust elbow(s)- then even hotter water will go to
    the heater, and the heater exuit will discharge into the exhaust elbow
    external water fitting.
    
     That water coming out of the manifolds will be nice and hot. 
    
    Dick
    
     

    
    Reg,
    
    	Actually the JY had several of these S.S. heaters, what a surprise,
    huh? Wanna try the FBB first?
    
    	I really wonder about it's usefulness w/o enclosing the cockpit 
    somehow....
    
    
    Rick
    
    BTW: I'll give up the library card, but you didn't mention the biggest
    risk with this setup. FREEZING OUR *&(* @SSES OFF, CAUSE WE HAVE A SKI
    BOAT WITH HEAT IN IT!
    
    Let's see a small canvas top from the windshield to right above the
    pylon.... a clear plastic wall from the top to the floor just in front
    of the pylon...... nahhhhhh!
    
    

Yeah, and at one of our gumballs 6 people show up ... one person skis while the
remaining five people will look real cute all crammed up under the canvas
top/clear backdrop.  Plus, think what all that weight at the front of the boat
will do to the wake characteristics!  :-)

...Roger...

	Another benefit of the  "chaufer dividing screen"  might be to 
keep the rope and handle from hitting the driver in the back of the 
head.  

A bimini top could probably be adapted from generic "other boat"  (-:, (-:

I dunno about the roll-over issue though, given what happened to the 
little yellow boat, a Suzuki heater in a ski boat just seems to be
tempting provi(de)nce..... 

	I think a hot water hose outlet of some kind (kitchen sink 
style) might be simpler.  Slosh some hot water in the gloves and
bindings before putting them on, maybe a little in the wetsuit just 
before jumping in the water.  Quick starts as soon as the rope slack 
is gone, hose me down again with hot water as soon as I get back in 
the boat.... Ahhhhhh, shear LUX_ury !!!
I shudda learned beach and dock starts this year, I know. 

	Reg  {sure I'm looking forward to it, can't Ya tell ?}

PS  anyone up for a few quick runs at Ft Meadow this saturday ?
	(regardless of the weather)

    
    
    RE: Boat Heater.
    
    As someone who has experienced the heater effect,
    (in Gerry's MC) I can say its effectiveness is 
    somewhat limited yet still quite appreciated.  In 
    Gerry's boat there is a vent at the drivers feet and
    one at the observers feet.  The one for the driver is
    pretty effective keeping the feet warm and not bad for 
    the legs.  Upper body gets little effect, yet some.
    For the observer the "tent" approach is effective for
    feet and legs.  If the towel is large enough you can
    get some heat to the upper body but again the effects
    are pretty limited.   The best approach for a driver
    would be to have a poncho type thing that would go
    over your head and then attach around the opening 
    where your feet are.  This would trap the air
    coming out of the vent at your feet and channel towards
    your arms  and head.  Velco could be used to hold it
    in place.   The hot water shower is a good idea but be
    careful that is is not too hot, nah..no way right?
    In a dry suit the shower is not quite as effective. :-)
    Feet, hands and head are the only real problems there.
    It wouldn't be any fun if it didn't hurt a little. 
    
    Mike

    The "Herrington" Mail order catalog lists a 12 volt, 1100 BTU heater in
    either standard or "marine" model for $99.95.  The unit utilizes a
    "newly patented ceramic-encased crystal heat cell".  It comes complete
    with a 16' wiring harness requiring just two wires to the battery.  A
    built in "whisper-quiet" fan with speed control circulates over
    100 CFM of "toasty warm air".  "Rugged, textured cabinet stays cool to
    the touch".  You can buy a second wiring harness for $30 dollars to
    move the heater to a second vehicle/boat.  It doesn't mention what the
    difference is between the standard version and the marine version but
    it's the same price so who cares.  It also comes with "multi-position
    mounting bracket".  Herrington's is out of Londonderry, NH.  I don't
    know if they have a show room or not.  Their number is: 800-622-5221
    if anyone is interested.  Their prices seem to be high for other things
    in their catalog but alot of their stuff you can't find anywhere else.
    Kinda like a more exclusive Brookstones.
    Wayne

    What is the heat source?  Electricity, propane, or what?
    
    Tx.  Jeff

    
    Read 12V, as in the boats battery................
    
    
    JIm

    1100 BTU is about enough to keep your socks warm. To get any amount of
    heat at 12V, you need lots of current- like battery cables.
    
     THose small household electric heaters are all rated at a max of 1500
    WATTS- at 12V that would be about 125 AMPS!
    
      I don't remember the conversion rates, butIf I reacll, an 1100 BTU
    heater is about 100 Watts +/- the amount of heat is pretty low.
    
    
    
    

    
>    Read 12V, as in the boats battery................

>    JIm

	and interpret that as meaning  "not much heat for an open boat"

A kilowatt wouldn't go far and unless you have a sooper dooper 
alternator you can't pull very much more than that from the charging 
system.  Of course, you could elect to drain the battery... or burn 
out the alternator... or

	R

    Also read  it uses 27 amps @12 volts.
    So this is only usefull if the engine is running.  If the engine is
    running why not use some of the engine cooling water to run a heater
    Look in JC Whiteny for some RV heaters taht work on the engine cooling
    system.
    
    
    
    
    

    
    
     You can also use a section of finned copper tubung from a baseboard
    heater and simply pipe some of the hot water from the engine through
    it. Depending upon engine design- if you can plumb the exhaust elbow
    separately from the exhaust manifold, then take the hot water dischrge
    
    from the exhaust manifold, run it through the tubing and then into the
    exhaust elbow- put a by- pass around it, though as it will be VERY
    warm! You may noty even need the fins, just a section of copper tubing
    or preferably S.S>. in Salt water.
    
    Dick
    

    Ad also said draws as much current as headlights (25 amps).  I would 
    use a hot water type heater if I had the room to do the needed
    plumbing or if I wanted to heat a large enclosed area like on a
    cabin cruiser but for just trying to warm up a small cuddy cabin
    or maybe just your hands/feet, this would save alot of aggrevation
    trying to run hot water hoses in a small boat with limited space 
    available. I called herringtons to get some more info.  The 1100 BTU
    output translates to 360 Watts.  The marine heater is electrically the
    same but has a special "anti-corrosion" coating on the outside.  I
    would think that 360 watts of heat under a "tent" type arrangement
    would do a reasonable job warming-up a single person and it doesn't
    have to become a permanent part of the floor plan.
    Wayne
                                                            

    
    I would not recommend you try to plumb hot exhaust manifold
    water into any type of tubing etc. If anything happens and
    you develop a small leak, you'll also get exhaust gas as
    well as a wet deck........
    
    Read::::::: carbon monoxide.
    
    Its commonly done with a fresh water cooling system, in fact
    its common practice to run these thru hot water heaters.
    
    I'm sure you could plumb some heat into the boat if you
    have a fresh water cooling system. My initial thought
    are a simple loop, with some copper finned baseboard
    wherever. Actually its sounds pretty good for those
    cooler fall days. The only drawback is you need to have
    the engine running....
    
    JIm..

    
     MY engine is FWC including the exhaust manifolds- so if you run the 
    Hot water heater off the exhaust manifold- what is the difference with
    running a cabin heater????
    
     I hadn't thought about the CO- but yoyu would need
    
    - A leak from the coling jacket to the exhaust
    and:
    - a leak in the heater plumbing 
    
     to get exhaust ( CO) in an occupied area. I would also think that the
    water pressure in the water jacket might be higher than that in the
    exhaust system, but that's a guess. I would also think that any leak in
    the cooling water ssytem would be readily noticable.
    
    Dick
    
    

    Dick, I would have thought that your raw water coming from the heat
    exchanger would be dumped into the exhaust manifold cooling passages
    and then exit out the exhaust pipes.  Where does your raw water exit
    if not out the exhaust?  Certainly makes sense to cool the manifolds
    with fresh water because they'll last alot longer.  Does the raw water
    just empty into the exhaust below the riser?
    Just curious.
    Wayne

    
     The manifolds are OSCO High rise, with the exhaus elbopw on top-
    the LOG type manifolds are similar.
    
     The water apssages between the maifold and elbow can be connected with
    two types of gaskets.
    
    1. A gasket with the water passages cut out
    
    2. a Gasket (very heavy and thick) with the paasges blocked off.
    
     IN case I, the water goes directly through the passges and exits into
    the exhaust elbow.
    
     In case 2, both the exhaust elbo and manifold have a pipe plug removed
    that allows access to the water jacket in both the manifold and the 
    exhaust elbow. 
    
     In the manifold, the fitting  is the fresh water return to the hot side of the heat
    exchanger.
    
     IN the exhaust elbow, the fitting is the hot raw water discharge from
    the heat exchanger.
    
     In this way, the only ast iron exposed to salt water is the exhaust
    elbow, which runs about $65 to replace. The maifolds are fresh water
    cooled and will last almost forever- mthe exhaust erosion is what will
    finally kill them, provided the rest of the engine lasts that long.
    
    
     Warning:-- you are getting rid of LOTS more heat from the manifolds
    through the fresh water. You will need greater heat exchanger capacity,
    and more raw water capacity than with only block cooling. 
    
     The SenDure Heat exchanger I ghave is quite a bit larger than with
    only block cooling and required a larger engine driven pump  be
    installed for the raw water.  MOst of the better FWC rigs are set up
    this way. OMC, Merc, etc usually go the cheap route with a small heat
    exchanger, Block only FWC, and use the small water pump in the I/O
    or the one that comes with raw water cooling only.
    
     The older OMC"one pass"  type of log manifolds cannot be set up for
    FWC unless you drill and tap the manifold and elbow to add the other
    fittings and you also have to make up your own gaskets(s)
    
     ther larger manifolds, larger exchanger and extra pump added quite a
    bit of weightto my 22'- I also added a second battery and trim tabs,
    and as a result, the wtaer line in the stern wwent up over 2"
     
    
     Sure is nice not to see all tha corrosion though and only have to
    drain the Heat excahnger and water pump and not mess with  draining the block etc.
    etc. In the spring, hook up two hoses, change the plugs, take the
    duct tape off the flame arrestor and the exhaust port-and she is ready
    to go! (at least the engine- bootom paint etc I/0s another story)    
    
    A  real advantage of FWC is that you can use automotive gaskets and water
    circulating pumps. The thermostat and housing are automotive also- 
    as well as the fact that you can run the engine at 180deg and get the
    better economy. 
    
       
    Dick
    

    There is a better place to connect a heater than the water lines to 
    the manifolds.  Use the heater connections.   On a Chevy small block
    look for a plug in water pump.  It is on right side.  That is one
    connection.  The other is in the intake manifold.  Or use the temp
    sender location.  A small piece of pipe and a tee will work fine if
    you use the temp sender hole.
    
    The engine cooling system was designed for a heater connection between
    those two locations so you know it will not effect the operation of the
    engine.   
    
    Note on the use of a 185 deg thermostat.  The merc manual reccoments
    only a 145 deg when fresh water cooled.   A couple reasons come to mind.
    The first is that salt will pratipicate out of salt water if heated to 
    greater than 165 deg.  This may reduce raw water flow in the heat
    exchanger.  The other is oil temp.  Most of the cooling for the oil
    is through the lower end of the block.  The block skirt temp has a
    direct effect on the oil temp.   The last one I can think of is
    preignition.   
    
    
    Ken Chester

    
    
     The engine cooling system was desingned to work with a conventional
    thermoststa and simple plumbung. I am not that familair with the MERC
    version of the small block, but on MY OMC, these p

    re. .24
    This is exactly how I have my cabin heater hooked up. A tee at one
    one the temp senders for the feed. The return is brought back into
    the water pump housing. The motor is a Merc 7.4l FWC. Merc sells
    a kit for adding a heater, its just a fitting for the return water.
    It gets spliced into the large hose that runs from the bottom of
    the heat exchanger to the water pump.
    
    Steve

    
    .26.  what size boat??  how do you control the flow, or regulate
    temp.  are you using copper fin baseboard.?????
    
    
    JIm.

    The boat is a 25ft Pro-Line with a walk-around cuddy cabin. The
    heater was ordered from West Marine. It has two, 2 speed fans to
    control the heat output. The heat output is ok with the standard
    165 deg thermostat. Its great with a 180. I have half of the heater
    blowing into some dryer hose which then is routed to blow on my
    windshield. This helps keep the windshield clear when running at
    night.
    
    Steve

    Moved by moderator.
    
================================================================================
Note 1062.0                   SMALL HEATER FOR BOAT                   No replies
XCUSME::MCGOWAN                                      13 lines   4-JUN-1993 10:17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Does anyone out there know where we can purchase a small
    space heater for our boat's cabin?  I nearly froze to death 
    last weekend.  (Sorry that I was not more hospitable, Rick.)  
    Anyway, I have been working all week in spite of the fact that
    I am quite sick and feeling miserable.  To stay up there
    and freeze again this weekend would surely mean pneumonia!
    I called Bliss Marine in Woburn and the best they have
    is an alcohol heater for 129.00.  Little too expensive.
    
    Any suggestions where I might try next?
    
    Thanks,
    Arlene  

    Hi Arlene,
    
    Since you guys have electricity at the dock, you may want to check 
    the local building supply places (Builder's Square, HQ, etc.). They 
    carry a small 5000 btu ceramic heater for about $60-70.  It has no
    exposed coils that glow, a thermostat, and "tipover" protection, so 
    it would be ideal for a boat.
    
    Rick
    P.S. Check my new "personal_name".  You're right, it was *cold* up
         north last weekend! The "anti-freeze" helped though.