Conference vicki::boats

    Hi Steve,
    
       I tried lower priced  citco 2 cycle oil last season, I still have
     about 1/2 a case if your interested! My motor fouled real bad at 
     trolling speeds with the stuff. I went back to the quick silver
     and presto no problems. I didn't believe there was any difference
     between brands but my motor does. 
    
    /Mike
    
    

    Here's a piece of advice, do what you wish.
    
    Use the manufacturers oil.
    
    The note previous to this, just gave you that advice indirectly..
    
    JIm.

I used TExaco for two seasons in my two Johnsons. Also went through too
many spark plugs. Went back to OMC oil ( $$ B^(  ) and enjoyed better
engine performance.

I don't know if it was TCW or PCW2.

I just wish it wasn't so damn expensive, even in the gallon jugs. 

    	I wish I only went through 8 quarts last year.   :^)
    
    	I buy my oil in bulk for $8/gal from a local boat dealer. Its OMC 
    oil just cheaper in bulk.

    
    I have some info I picked up from a freind of mine who designs/tests
    bearings for the Torrington Company, the major mfr of the roller/needle
    bearings used in the crankshafts of all the major US outbaord
    manufacturers.
    
     My freind has, as part of jis responsibilities, the management of 
    the test facility /laboratory where the mfrs bring engines and
    Torrington test new/current designs and lubricants for the bearings.
    
     Based on some test that Torrington ran for Mercury, they found that of
    all the oils on the market, Quicksilver oil was the best lubricant for
    use in the water cooled two cycles they were testing.
    
     I have to beleive my freind , because there are two characteristics of
    his personality that drive his behaviour. 
    
    First: he is extremely analytical(Dr Spock type) to the point of being
    a pain-in-the (explitive deleted)
    
    Second- he's an old Yankee and he's tighter'n the bark on a tree.
    
    I knew something was up when I aw him using Quicksiler Oil in his
    Outboard-he wopuld NEVER spend the extra $ unless there was a good
    reason.- when I started kidding him about it, he relayed to me th test
    results.He said the difference was dramatic. He also said the oils from
    the engine manufacturers were all pretty good- but that the rest of the 
    oils were markedly poorer in the ability to provide long term
    protection.
    
     Like he said, oil is cheap compared to a new powerhead!
    
    
    

Dick,
Mercury just called to say that your check is in the mail...

Just kidding!  I've always run my Johnson 88 (outboard motor that is)
on OMC oil.  It's been fine, no problems with fouling or anything, in
fact I've got two *full* seasons on the original plugs.

Based on your recommendation I'll try the Quicksiler oil when my supply
of OMC oil runs out.

I agree though - stick with oil from one of the major outboard makers.
They've got the most at stake in making sure their oil is up to snuff.
If their's fails, warranty claims increase.  If an aftermarket brand 
fails, they give you another quart of oil.

Rick

RE:                    <<< Note 809.3 by HYEND::J_BORZUMATO >>>
                       -< a little more to the point.. >-

    
>>    The note previous to this, just gave you that advice indirectly..
    
Note 809.2 should have read TCW-II (not PCW2) is recommended for all
OMC and Mercurys. 

    
    ive heard that valvoline has done good things to their oil
    im trying it at the moment and it seems great 
    ill also put in a vote for quicksilver
    
    the other reg
    
    
    

    
    
    ive decided to add to this after id tried the valvoline for a while.
    
    my motor "135 johnson" has always been difficult to start
    and was forever fouling plugs,however
    i can now hit the key and away she goes. the change in the motor
    since using valvoline is dramatic to say the least.
    
    my only theory for this change is that possibly the flash point for
    valvoline may be lower than for a number of other leading brands.
    
    the other reg
    
    

RE:  <<< Note 809.10 by SNOFS1::BOWMAN >>>

    
I am curious as to what brand/type of oil you were using 
before the valvoline.

	Steve
    

    
    
    
    i was using quicksilver which i know is a great oil but for 
    some reason it seems to cause fouling in my motor.
    
    please dont get me wrong im definately not having a go at 
    quicksilver as im convinced its a great oil.
    
    the other reg
    
    

    
    Moved by moderator...
================================================================================
Note 823.0                       Gas:Oil ratio?                       No replies
GEMVAX::HICKSCOURANT                                 17 lines  12-APR-1991 13:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I recently bought a used 6hp Chrysler outboard (2 cylinders). I didn't
    get the manuals with it, though, and I haven't received them through
    interoffice mail yet.
    
    I want to put the motor on the back of my inflatable and try it all out
    this weekend.
    
    Can anybody give me safe guidelines for the oil/gas mix?
    Can I use unleaded gas? (This motor looks like new and was recently
    overhauled, but it is of early 1970's vintage.)
    
    Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm desperate for information.
    
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    John,
    Some older motors called for a ratio of 25:1 but that was because 
    the oils back then s*cked.  Oils are much better today, use oil
    with a TCW-II rating and mix it at 50:1 and you'll be all set. If
    the motor hasn't been run in a while, or this is the first startup
    since the rebuild, run the first tank a bit richer, say 25:1 or 30:1.
    
    You can also use unleaded gas with no problem whatsoever.  2 cycles
    have never needed lead - they don't have any valves that need
    lubricating.  Just use a high enough octane, 89 or better to
    prevent pinging.
    
    Hope this helps...
    
    Rick
    

    Second - run 50:1 BRAND NAME oil that says TCWII - RIGHT ON THE
    CONTAINER! and you should never have a problem (caused by the oil).
    
     Pinging? Rick, have you ever heard a two-cycle ping?
    
    	Well I have and it isn't pretty - they don't live too long once
    they start doing that!
    
    				Kenny

    Thanks for the feedback. I called a helpful marina on Winni and was
    told that 1 pint of oil per 6 gallons of gasoline was the right ratio
    for a low-hp outboard of early 70s vintage. That checks out at 48:1
    ratio.
    
    I'm looking forward to diving some spots on Monday that have always
    been too far to paddle to.
    
    John H-C

    Does anybody know of reasons not to exceed the mfgrs 2 stroke oil mix
    recommendations? For example my small engine guy recommended I run 40
    to 1 gas oil ratio vs. the stock 50-1 mix my 25 Hp Johnson requires.
    Obviously fouled plugs is the risk of a rich oil mix... but as he
    suggests increased power head bearing life offsets the problem of 
    occasionally fouled plugs.
    
    Jeff
    

    
    RE. .17
    Yes, there is another reason.  Oil will burn, but has a much lower
    octane rating than gasoline.  If your motor is already on the verge
    pre-ignition or pinging, extra oil will make it worse.  This isn't
    to say you shouldn't run extra oil, just watch for any symptoms of
    pinging, which is very destructive to your motor.
    
    The only instances I know of where richer than 50:1 is used is in
    the outboard class race boats.  But these guys also run very high
    octane gas, as well as rebuild often.  I really don't think running
    40:1 is going to give any extra engine life, especially if you use 
    a good oil.  But it probably *will* shorten plug life.
    
    Rick

re (.18 re .17), right.

	It makes 'em run leaner too - though not by a lot, sometimes 
just enough to off-set a dirty air filtre (-:, (-:

	R

    Does anybody know where one can buy OMC oil in bulk (gallons) in the
    Northern Mass/Southern, N.H. area?
    
    Jeff

    Can somebody point me to a place in Maynard that sells two-cycle oil?
    
    I need to buy some today, and I'm a long way from any of the places I
    normally buy the stuff.
    
    Thanks.
    
    John H-C

    Are you one of the folks that are particular about the brand?
    Isn't there a K-Mart close by?I buy most of mine there,the prices
    are good.
    
    It would probably cost more,but my local Charter Fuel gas station
    sells Sunoco two stroke oil too.
    
    Forecast for 90 degrees coming still,I filled four tanks Wednesday
    and expect to blow it all off this weekend.
    
    Keith
    

    Couple of questions about 2 cycle oil...
    
    I read over the weekend in an old boating book that if you add 2 cycle
    oil to a gas tank that already has gas in it, the oil will not mix. 
    They recommend adding the oil and gas at the same time to the tank.
    
    This was news to me.  I fill my 6 gallon tank with gas, bring it home,
    place it on the boat, then drop the oil in last.  Trailering for
    anywhere from 15 to 45 minutes was my method of mixing/shaking.  
    
    Is my procedure at risk of not having the oil and gas mix well?  What
    do others do?
    
    Has anyone tried Wal-Marts Marine 2 cycle oil?  It is TCW-3 rated and
    the cost is only 99 cents per pint container.  I bought a couple of
    pints but have not gotten to it yet.  It is ashless and has all the
    good stuff listed on the container.  I was suprised to see TCW-3 rating
    on it.  Most of the less expensive oil I have seen did not exceed TCW-2.
    
    Thanks, Mark

    somewhere in this notesfile we had a lengthy discussion on this
    subject.
    
    I think we all concluded it was best to use the manufacturers oil
    for many reasons.
    
    on the mixing, i've never heard of this as "a must" sounds like
    a good idea. the other issue is when you leave it sit idle
    after its mixed. i.e. not use the boat, i slosh it around before
    i use it again, because it will separate, actually its goes to
    the bottom, so it needs remixing.
    
    
    JIm

    Since I don't know how much oil to add first on a partially full tank
    I pump gas first to get a quantity, THEN add the appropriate amount
    of oil. If you know the fuel quantity ahead of time you can add the
    oil first.
    
    The point is to get a through mix... it doesn't matter if you mix it
    by having the pumped gasoline agitate the oil or manually mixing it
    afterward by sloshin the tank around which is what I do.  Anybody
    towing a boat would get a good mixing action from the bouncing 
    around of the boat on the trailer.
    
    I have never had a problem adding oil after the gas.  
    
    I agree after the tank has been sitting... slosh the gas around to re
    distribute the oil.
    
    Jeff

    
    From what I understand, Wal-Mart goes out for contract bids on their
    petroleum based products. Which means modt likely what you are getting
    is a major oil manufacturer's product in their packaging, I think....
    
    
    
    Bob

    Yes you have to wonder who makes what.  I suppose I could ASK the folks
    at Wal-Mart who manufactures it.  The container is identical to those
    used by Lubrimatic for their outboard 2 cycle oil.  Not that this means
    anything.  The last time I took the boat out I was using Lubrimatic oil
    that I bought at Spags for $1.49 a pint.  This stuff is TCW-2 rated. 
    When I was in Wal-mart and saw the identical container, plus a rating of
    TCW-3, and a cost of only $.99 a pint I had to grab a couple to try it
    out.
    
    It is my understanding that TCW-3 rating means improved lubrication
    quality and a better resistance to high tempature running.  Will not
    coke as soon as TCW-2 rated oils at high temps.  Anyone else know
    anything about TCW-3 vs TCW-2?
    
    I am not sure how long it takes to determine if a certain brand of
    outboard oil is suitable.  I certainly have not logged enough hours on
    the Lubrimatic oil to make an educated statement on its quality.  I can
    say that I had no problems starting or running the engine with it.
    
    You also have to wonder who has the contract to make Johnson OMC oil?  
    
    Mark

    
    Wal-Mar tis such a large retailer that they probably buy hugh
    quantities and thats how they beat the competition out. If I'm not
    mistaken I think they have over 2000 stores in the u.s. and still
    building more. Their goal by the end of the year is to have all their
    stores open 24 hours a day seven days a week. Now thats a commitment to
    service your customers who are always right!
    
    Good question about OMC oil, I wonder who makes it?
    
    Bob

    
    I;m not positive, but i think Yahama oil is made by OMC.
    
    My concern is that by the time you find out if its good or not,
    it may be too late.
    
    I don't think outboard oil has a shelf life, so buying it in larger
    quantities may be economical. For what i use, a quart will last 
    2 seasons (8hp outboard) obviously larger motors use more
    because of the amount of fuel consumed.
    
    
    The dealers arn't gonna give us a straight answer, why ruin a 
    customer base.
    
    Its been a long term question, i don't have the answer.
    
    For what i use, i'll stay with the name brands.
    
    JIm

    A friend used to work in packaging at Amoco. They would submit bids to
    companies (including Quacker State) for bulk sale of oil. The buyer
    simply submits a spec for the oil and goes with the lowest bidder.
    Amoco would simply add whatever dye and additive was requested, bottle
    it, and put whatever label was requested. On the gasoline side, the oil
    companies frequently use gas coming from the pipelines from each others
    refinery to the storage tanks. I was told that the "difference" at the
    pump was little more than about a quart of additive that was dumped in
    the tanker truck after it was filled.
    
    Next time you are in the store, read the label on Quacker State
    carefully. It no longer says "made from genuine" but uses the key word
    of "equivalent" or some such.

    Merc oil foul problem. Any ever experience the same or similar?
    
    
    I have a merc 150XR2 powering my Ebbtide 180SK fish-n-ski...
    For the past 3 or so summers I've been experiencing excesive oil
    fouling on the spark plugs. After several hours I actually have to
    remove and clean them. This is an oil injected motor. I had the oil
    pump checked out and the flow rate thru the rpm range was per the merc
    spec. I use the recommended plugs. I thought about hotter running
    plugs but mercury does not recommend this due to possible piston
    damage...
    
    For the most part after the plugs are cleaned the motor runs fine.
    As it begins to foul out the smoke emitted gets excessive and the 
    motor begins to sputter and mis. I don't do a lot of idling or
    trolling. When I remove the plugs some are worse then others.
    The compression is good and otherwise runs great.
    
    Does anyone have any suggestions??????????????????????????????????
    
    						Tony...
    

    
    Tony,
    
    	By chance are you using an oil other than one made by
    Mercury? If so, see the early replies to this note.
    
    Rick

i'm not having this problem, at least i dont think so.

here's what i have.  during the season, for some reason, i have to change

one of the 2 plugs. just seems that they get eaten up, but there is no visible 

sign of damage.  I called the Yamamama dealer, said use a fuel additive

that burns off the carbon.  gave me a brand to buy can't remember.

will try it this year, but its strange, its just one of the plugs

not both, and there is a significant loss of power, in fact i can

swim faster. this happens about 2 times during the season.

when i'm done for the weekend i run it dry, no fuel in the system,

and this happens with no warning or symptoms the prior weekend.

JIm

    
    Hey Jim,
    
    	The problem is that you own an inboard, you shouldn't be
    adding oil to the fuel! :-)
    
    Rick

    I only use the good stuff. Quicksilver ie Mercury Marine 
    recommended oil. Since I've owned the boat thats all I've used.
    By the way it's a 1986 vintage motor with around 200-275 hrs
    on it. I've had the boat/motor four seasons. The previous owner
    was quite a meticulous one with the boat, however I don't know what
    brand oil he used. He was the original owner.
    
                                             Tony...

    Jim, did you repower?  Replaced the twin Chrysler V-8's with one two
    cylinder Yamaha outboard?  I could probably swim faster, too.  You must
    just use it to turn the boat around at the dock once a year so that it
    will weather evenly on both sides.  Like they do with "Old Ironsides".
    Probably freed up alot of room inside to put a pool table or something.
    Wayne

actually i put in a salt water swimming pool, and put the outboard on a

bracket.

JIm

    Re: fouling plugs
    I used to have a lot of problems with fouling plugs. When a ring broke
    and damaged the head and piston I had to tear down the engine. During
    the inspection the book pointed out checking the thermostat for being 
    stuck closed. I checked and mine was stuck OPEN. Since the motor was
    rebuilt and the thermostat replaced I no longer have problems with
    plugs. By the way mine is a 71 Johnson without oil injection.FTW

I'd definitely take steps to replace your thermostats. When you get in
there you might find some other reason why they're not closing.

I had the same problem with my 235 Johnson. Salt had accumulated in two
little passages, jamming return springs and preventing the thermostats
from closing. The engine was running too cold. I cleaned out the salt,
replaced the gaskets (which was why the salt got there in the first
place), and cured my running problem. (The salt also has not returned.)

Your Mercury dealer might not recommend a hotter plug because his book
says that for "average" use you're using the right one. Experience has
shown that your use is probably different from that "average" use - which
is possibly determined at Lake X in Florida. If it were mine, I'd also
experiment with a hotter plug.

Happy boating,

Art

	I picked up some Johnson oil for the Evinrude the other day,
	and when I got home I noticed it's rated as TC-W III.  The oil
	I've used in the past, OMC or Quicksilver, says it's TC-W II.

	Can I use the TC-W III in my mid-70's 65 hp Evinrude ?

	Thanks,
	Ken

    re:  Can I use the TC-W III in my mid-70's 65 hp Evinrude ?
    
    Yes. It's designed for use with todays gasoline.  I use it in a late
    model 200hp with oil injection, as well as a 20 year old 7hp premix.
    
    -donmac

    THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TC-WII AND TC-WIII IS TCW-III HAS AN ADDITIVE
    FOR PREVENTING CARBON BUILD-UP. WITH TC-WII YOU HAVE TO ADD IT.
    

I haven't used an additive along with TC-WII in the fuel mixture in the past.
What problems would carbon buildup cause ?  Where does the carbon build up ?

Thanks,
Ken

    >Where does the carbon build up ?
    
    In the combustion chamber. Having the dealer decarbon an outboard used
    to be something that was "recommended" I remember hearing when I bought
    my 70 Envinrude new in 1970. Of course, in the 16 years I owned it, I
    had that service done.

re:       <<< Note 809.44 by GUCCI::HERB "New Personal Name coming soon!" >>>

>     my 70 Envinrude new in 1970. Of course, in the 16 years I owned it, I
>    had that service done.

	Did you mean to say that you _never_ had that service done ?

---

	I'm wondering what problems carbon buildup would cause ?
	I haven't noticed any problems with my 65 hp Evinrude, except
	that it can stall out at slow trolling speeds - would this be
	due to carbon buildup by any chance ?	


	/Ken

    ..but I did have low speed stall.

	Can slow-speed-stall be caused by carbon buildup ?  What 
	other problems might carbon buildup cause ?  (I'd rather
	hear it from here than from a marina).  

	I guess I'll see for myself on the next tank with TC-WIII,
	but I'm real curious now...

	Thanks,
	Ken

    If carbon builds up around your rings or ports and breaks off it
    could scratch the cylinder, causing reduced compression, or worse
    cause your rings to break and seize your engine...
    
    TCW-III contains additives which blended with todays gas helps reduce
    carbon build up.  
    
    -don mac

    Carbon build-up can cause several different probs as previously stated.
    One not previously mentioned is gumming up of the rings, cuasing loss
    of compresssion. Carbon buildup on the head and piston can also cause 
    spark knock,(detonation). Evinrude/Johnson make a spray to help relieve 
    this condition by spraying into the carb(s) while engine is running.
    They call it tune-up. It was recommended by a factory shop several
    years ago rather than tearing down the engine to clean it up. Can you 
    believe it a shop that recommended a can of stuff and my labor instead
    of their $45 an hour labor and $55. head gaskets.

    Carbon build up can also cause run on engine.  If a piece of carbon in
    the combustion chamber heats up enough, when you shut off your engine it
    will still ignite the gas.
    
    Wayne

    I question any "doomsday" comments about the newer oil's effect on
    engines that have been in use for a while (since they claim to reduce
    build up...not remove it). 
    
    I never figured out what caused my low speed stall on my old Evinrude.
    I just learned to put up with it. I've since purchased  a 17 year old
    boat with an i/o (extremely low hours) and, going into the 3rd season,
    the Ford 302 still seems to hum smoothly.
    
    An old shade tree solution for carbon elimination by the way was to
    spray plain old water into the intake. Ever see a cylinder that's been
    cracked and subjected to water intake? Don't overdo it of course.

re:       <<< Note 809.51 by GUCCI::HERB "New Personal Name coming soon!" >>>

>    I never figured out what caused my low speed stall on my old Evinrude.

To troll at slow speeds, the other day I experimented with dragging a
big 10 gallon bucket w/ holes behind the boat to create drag.  It worked ok,
but is not optimal for several reasons.

I heard that there's something that i can attach to my motor's lower unit
to create drag, to allow me to run at slow speeds for longer periods of time.
Does anyone know what this is called ?

/Ken

��I heard that there's something that i can attach to my motor's lower unit
��to create drag, to allow me to run at slow speeds for longer periods of time.
��Does anyone know what this is called ?
    Mother-in-law ?

    a trolling plate, should see them in all the major mail order houses,
    bass pro shops, cabelas, gander mtn

re: .53, i've been reading about so much doom and gloom lately,

i almost fell outa my chair when i read this.

Can i offer a volunteer, my mother-inlaw.

One problem,

she talks alot.

I think there is such a thing, i recall reading about this in this file

not long ago. Someone with a Merc,??? and i they used it would void the

warranty????????????

Someone should be able to point to this...

JIm

>    Mother-in-law ?

Hah! ;-)   I wouldn't want to scare the fish ;-)

/Ken

    Thank you, Mr. Lindquist, for the best laugh I've had in weeks!

    A test in Trailer Boat Mag (October, 1992) concluded that an overly
    talkative mother-in-law will cause prop cavitation at less than planing
    speed.  The added drag plus cavitation caused the boat to not attain
    any noticeable headway speed against the current.  Also, there was some
    "burning" of the prop due to the cavitation condition.  
    
    Their bottom line was: fine for a sea anchor in a pinch but a kicker
    motor would be a better way to go.