Conference vicki::boats

Depends on who you talk to (that is, which motor head you talk to).  I have one
on my '65 Ford 289 Interceptor.  I put it there on the recommendation of a motor
head acquaintance who was trying to get my motor to idle smoother and stop it
from stalling when I put it in gear.  My final solution?  New carb and a timing
adjustment.  From what I understand, the wedge does help to keep the carb floats
in a more desireable position, which is good.  But that wasn't really related to
my problem.  Turns out that my old carb was pretty shot...bad needle valves,
metering plate gasket, etc. etc.

Bottom line:  you'll probably find some combination of carb and distributor
adjustments that will solve your problem.

...Roger...

    Roger, thanks for the reply.  I sent the carb off to Michigan for a
    rebuild last summer.  The boat ran great when I got it back.  The
    problem I'm having started later in the season after we had used
    it for skiing a number of times.  I'm starting to think that moisture
    is collecting in the distributor cap and causing it to break down.
    The boat never made it to the water this summer because of a bad
    tranny.  My winter project is to swap out the Eaton tranny and get
    it running good again.  After hearing about your experience, I'll 
    probably leave the carb alone and concentrate on the ignition system.
    What kind of boat do you have?  
    Thanks, Wayne 

Hi Wayne.  I have a '65 Correct Craft Mustang.  I rebuilt the motor, but was
still having problems with stalling when putting it in gear.  The timing
adjustment fixed the problem, but in the process of diagnosis, I discovered the
leaking carb jet, and subsequently found that adjustment didn't make any
difference.  The carb was originally hanging around my brother-in-law's body
shop, in a corner covered with dust.  I had someone rebuild it, but it didn't
last long.  My guess is that something just went bye-bye.  I still have the carb
but haven't taken it apart to relly find out what the problem is (or was).
Anyway, it idles much nicer with the new carb, so I'll leave well enough alone.

Does the wedge plate make a difference?  Maybe.  But both my cousin and my uncle
own Ski Tique's with 302's, neither of them have the angled wedge plate (they do
have the one-inch spacer plate, though), and both idle and run fine.  Of course,
they have *MARINE* carbs, while mine is a street carb.  But the guy I talked to
at Holley told me the only real difference is in the vent tubes.  The floats and
jets are the same.

Good luck with your tranny replacement.

...Roger...

    whats a vent tube..
    
    JIm.

    
    re: Jim,
    
    	The vent tube on a Holley carb is a small (~�) tube that 
    extends upward centered between the 4 barrels. It's also known
    as an overflow tube. The difference between an automotive and
    a marine carb is that this tube points straight up on an automotive
    carb and is curved back into the carb on a marine carb.
    
    	Boy Rog, someone is sure to jump on you for admitting that you
    have an automotive carb on your Mustang! :-)
    
    	BTW: Automotive Holley 4bbls can be had fairly cheap. The last
    one I bought a couple of years ago was 144 bucks and made my 1964
    Correct Craft run real nice! Compare that to a Ski Limited price
    of $309.95 for the same carb with a curved overflow tube.
    
    
    Rick

Yeah, Rick the price is what turned me off.  I actually ordered a "marine" carb
from the speed shop that I eventually bought the street carb from.  They jerked
me around for 3 weeks with the old "Gee, we can't seem to locate one, but if you
can wait till next week when our next shipment comes in..."  I finally said
"Screw it, I'll take that 600cfm street carb on the shelf over there.".  I
called Holley in Tennessee and spoke with a technician who told me that the
marine carbs are a variation of the new 41xx series.  Apparently, the new design
has a one-piece airhorn/throttle body assembly, thus eliminating at least one
major gasket (possible leak point), along with some "updated" internal flow
ports.  The interesting thing he told me was that the vent tubes are removeable
(albeit not trivially) and replaceable, so I asked if I could just get a street
carb and order the vent tubes separately.  The guy said, "Sure!  $37".  Do the
math: $160 for the carb, $37 for the vent tubes = $197 (oh yeah, and $35 for the
electric choke, so that's $232).  The "marine" 4107 (I think that was the model
number of the 600cfm) listed for $339, without electric choke.

About getting lip service for having a street carb, let me say that I do have a
flame arrestor on the carb (a *real* one purchased from Overton's, not some
some makeshift kludge like I've seen on some boats).

The wedge plate (if memory serves it's an 8 degree angle) makes the carb sit
nice and level, which, IMHO, is probably more psychologically satisfying to *me*
(i.e. I *feel* better knowing it's level) than it is functionally useful to the
carburetor.  As I said earlier, both my uncle and cousin have 302's with the
carb sitting on a 1" spacer, no angle compensation, and the boats run fine.

...Roger...

re            <<< Note 767.6 by ROGER::GAUDET "Nothing unreal exists" >>>
>                              -< More carb talk >-

	I seem to be in the part time non paying business of 
re-building carbs - for my teenagers and their buddies (- :, (-:

	I vaguely remember some instructions that came in one of the 
kits that said something about setting the float level differently for 
marine installations that were NOT level - else if level via wedge 
plate then use road vehicle instructions, etc.

	R

    Since 4 barrel carbs have been mentioned here, I'll ask another
    question. Does a 4 barrel carb give that much better performance
    over the stock 2 barrel?  Even though I just spent $120 dollars
    to have the original (and now obsolete) carter 2 barrel rebuilt,
    I wouldn't mind putting the carb away for later on when I want
    to restore the boat to total original.  I'm sure that I could find
    a 4 barrel manifold to fit this engine (260 cubic inch) along with
    a new carb.  Don't 2 barrel carbs give better "low end torque" which
    is what I would want for pulling water skiers up?  If I go to a 4V
    carb, does the cam have to be changed also?  When people talk about
    a "marine cam", does that imply a higher performance cam or a cam
    that is designed to run in the opposite direction from an auto cam?
    My engine does turn in the opposite direction from a car's engine.
    If I do want to change the cam, do I have to replace it with a
    Marine cam?  If it is at all helpfull in answering these questions,
    the firing order for the "right hand rotation" engine is exactly
    backwards to a "left hand rotation" engine.  The only other differences
    I can find are the distributor,  starter motor, and water pump.
    Some of these questions are a thinly disguised attempt to determine
    if I could just pull out the 260CI engine and replace it with a 302CI
    engine so that I can save the just-rebuilt 260CI for later restoration
    of the boat.
    Wayne

RE: Note 767.8 

Wayne,
I'll take a shot at some of your questions.

>>Does a 4 barrel carb give that much better performance over the 
>>stock 2 barrel?  

It depends.  Think of your engine as an air pump - it can only pump as
much air as the most restrictive part of the engine will allow it to. If
the exhaust is very restricted or the ports are undersized, the 4 barrel 
carb will have less of an effect than on a free breathing engine.  The 
Ford 260 was never a hi-perf engine and has very small intake and exhaust 
ports in the heads.  You may see some improvement, but not as much as 
converting say a Chevy 350 from 2 to 4 barrel.

>> I'm sure that I could find a 4 barrel manifold to fit this engine 
>> (260 cubic inch) along with a new carb.

Check around first, and make sure you get a manifold intended for the 
260.  A hi-perf manifold intended for the later 289 and 302 engines may 
have mismatched ports, which can hurt performance. Also, be sure to get
a manifold intended for operation in the 1000-5000 rpm range.  A manifold
intended for 7000 rpm drag racing will kill the performance in a boat.

>> Don't 2 barrel carbs give better "low end torque" which is what I would
>> want for pulling water skiers up? 

Again, it depends.  If the carb has small enough primaries and the secondaries
are set up to open at the proper time, the 4 barrel shouldn't hurt low end
torque.  The cases you're referring to are where the carb isn't set up properly
and dumps too much fuel and air in at low speed, causing a bog.

>> If I go to a 4V carb, does the cam have to be changed also?

It certainly wouldn't hurt, refer back to the "air pump" analogy.  Be sure
to get a cam intended for marine applications, or 1000-5000 rpm street
applications, like an "RV" cam.

>> When people talk about a "marine cam", does that imply a higher performance 
>>cam or a cam that is designed to run in the opposite direction from an auto 
>> cam?  My engine does turn in the opposite direction from a car's engine.

The term "marine cam" refers to the rpm range of intended use, not direction
of rotation, since some marine engines have standard rotation.  A marine cam
is made for good low end torque, but with a limited top end (<5000 rpm).  And 
yes, you will need a cam intended for reverse rotation, since the profile of 
most cams is not symmetrical.

>> If I do want to change the cam, do I have to replace it with a Marine cam? 

I think so - see the previous answer.  I don't think that RV or street cams
are readily available in reverse rotation.

>> Some of these questions are a thinly disguised attempt to determine
>> if I could just pull out the 260CI engine and replace it with a 302CI
>> engine so that I can save the just-rebuilt 260CI for later restoration
>> of the boat.
   
Good idea.  The benefit of adding a 4 barrel carb, manifold, and cam will
be somewhat limited by the breathing capability (and lack of cu. in.) in
that little 260. To top it off, the added power (and added temptation to use
it!) may be tough on the bottom end of the motor if you don't go for a full 
rebuild with hi-perf pistons, rods, bolts, balancing, etc.  The stock Ford 
connecting rods and rod bolts in the older small blocks are fairly weak.

The 302 will bolt right in, and may be the way to go for now, saving the 
260 for later restoration to stock.  A later model healthy 302 will probably
also deliver more power than a built up 260.  Check the junkyards for a mid-
80's (no injection or computer) Mustang GT motor.  Just FYI, the 351W would 
also bolt right in but the taller deck height of the 351 block makes the 
engine wider, requiring some mods to the exhaust system.

Good luck,
Rick W.

P.S. After typing this, I just though of one *major* hitch that may prevent 
you from converting to a later model motor.  The pre-1965 small block Fords 
had a 5-bolt pattern on the block and bellhousing.  The 65 and later models
have a 6 bolt pattern.  Check yours before going too far, you may also have 
to swap the bellhousing (or whatever is attached to the motor) if you want 
to do the swap.

    
    
    	Just for general info..... I purchased a 1983 302HO from
    the boneyard 1� years ago for $900.00. Nice solid motor, and
    quite quick. It would burn the rear tires right off of the 
    F150 extended cab it was placed in if I'd let it.
    
    Rick

    The earlier 260 and 289 Fords usually came with generators, the later
    289's and 302's had alternators.  My dad and I attempted to swap a 289
    4bbl from a 64 1/2 Mustang (old style block) into a 66 Galaxy (new
    style block) and discovered the previously mentioned differences
    (bellhousing, etc.)  The 289 in the Mustang was about as quick as the
    newer Mustangs with the 302.  
    
    Wayne, would it be cheaper to put in a late model 302, and buy a
    different rotation prop?  Or rig the tranny control to operate
    opposite?  
    
    Carl