Conference vicki::boats

    I have a friend who had a Searay.  He traded it in for a Four Winns. 
    The boats were comparable in size/power/design/etc.  He just wanted a
    new boat.  He has repeatedly said that he enjoys the Four Winns better.
    
    His comments primarily evolved around performance/responsiveness.
    
    It may just be taht it was a newer boat.  I have a Four Winns also and
    chose it over the searay just because of design/appearance.  
    
    I personnaly like the design of the Four Winns better.
    
    
    

    I have a 1989 205 with the 5.8 235hp.  I have been very happy with the
    boat and have had no major problems.  When I was looking for a boat I 
    looked at the 20 ft Searay and found the quality of the Four Winns 
    workmanship to be alittle bit better.  Also I did like the style
    better, and came down to the price I also got a better deal on the Four
    Winns.  Four winns also has a three year warenty, and for a first time
    boater this was an important factor.
    
    See note 273 for additional info.
    
    Good luck
    
    Rick 

    
    
                            -<Toss-up>-
    
    Chuck,
    
     As you can by my 'personal', I like Sea Ray. In this
    case either boat would be a good choice. Both companies
    do make a good solid boat. The power is there in both,
    though the Four-Winns has the edge. The choice here,(IMO)
    come down to who offers the better deal. I do know the
    people at Sea Ray stand behind their boats and are willing
    to go the extra mile if there are problems. I can't offer
    any input on Four-Winns warranty/service, but I see some-
    one already did. As I said before, though, both companies/
    boats are at or near top of the line reputation-wise.
    
     Good luck!!
    
    Andy

    
    	I to a FourWinns owner, I have a '88 205 cutty with a 175 v-6.
    	Searay is also a good product, but for some of the same reason
    	already mentioned, quality, styling I bought a FourWinns. But
    	FourWinns is a little heavier boat, which adds to the stabliness
    	and handles the ocean well. Trailerboat did a 5 or 6 boat
    	comparison for the 17' class boats. FourWinns did come out on top.
    	It is more of a family boat, because it is a little heavier, it
    	provides a better ride. This is my 3rd summer with the boat and 
    	have no  complaints. As mentioned, it may come down to $$$$ and
    	who has the best deal. 
    	My boat with the 175 will do 40 mph using a 16 pitch steel prop.
    	No problems with pulling water skiers.
    
    	Good luck
    
    	Mike

    Isn't Searay owned by the same owners that Bayliners are owned by now?
    I know that Searay used to be a good boat - is it still made w/ the
    same quality these days?
    
    

In my opinion the new Sea Rays are of higher quality than my old one. Guilt by
association is a terrible thing. Undeserved bad reputations don't do any of us
any good.

john

    
                      -<another angle>-
    
    Think of it this way.... Just because General Motors
    owns Chevrolet, does that mean their Cadillac division
    suffers for it? As far as Sea Ray and Bayliner being
    owned by the same company, they are still separate
    operations. The boats are built in different factories
    by different people employing different methods. Bruns-
    wick's acquisition of Bayliner was a business move
    to capture a different market.(entry level boaters)
    Sea Ray boats are still built to the high standards
    that earned them their good reputation and loyalty
    by those who own Sea Rays.
    
    IMO
    
    Andy

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Note 752.0                    I'll keep the SeaRay                       1 reply
GRANMA::WFIGANIAK "YEAH..GET THE RED ONE"             5 lines  10-SEP-1990 16:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    RE:5
    Its true SeaRay,Maxim(sp) and Bayliner are all owned by Brunswick
    Corp. A company called Genmar owns Wellcraft and I'm not sure what
    else. Still I'd put my SeaRay up aganist any crusier on the market.
    Guess you can tell I'm a little bias.

    
    I compared a 190 Sea Ray to the 200 Horizon and thought 
    that Sea Ray paid more attention to detail. The dash seemed
    to be much nice, the seats were made a little more rugged,
    and the hardware through out the boat seemed to be mounted
    and reinforced better.
    
    Both boats are great though. So it probably comes down to the
    best price you can get.
    
    Craig
    

    Since all the above replies focused on the boat I thought I would
    add 2 cents about the engine. I would defintly choose the V8. You
    will not be happy with anything smaller and the engine will last
    longer since you run it at lower revs. I would also suggest merccrusier
    over omc. I had a 230 (305 block) on a 21 foot chris that cruise at
    26 knots at 3000rpm and I suspect it has a sharper deadrise than the
    boats you are looking at.
    
    Merc beats omc in the design of there outdrives and shift mechanisms.
    
    Bruce

    
    	To keep things fair....Merc is also a nightmare for maintenance
    
    	For an example: the water impeller for Merc cannot be repaired 
    	while the boat is in the water, if you don't have the tools and
    	knowlege to fix it your self, then off to the shop...can screw
    	up a vacation. 
    
    	BOAT magazine did a comparison between Merc & OMC, the name of the
    	article was "Black Magic VS the Snake", sorry I don't remember the
    	month of issue.
    
    	Merc has been around for a long time and does produce a good
    	product, I don't want to bash Merc, but it is wise to shop for
    	outdrives and to some knowlege of the various units, their
    	strenghts and weakness. Some dealers carry more than one outdrive
    	which is a plus, it gives the buyer a choice.
    
    	Just my .02 worth
    
    	Mike

    To keep things fair...
    
    	How did Mercruiser get so big?  I thought it was attention to
    customer needs.  There is an article on the entire Mercruiser lineup
    in the September issue of Boating magazine(including racing drives),
    and if I remember correctly, one of the new features is a water pump
    that can be easily serviced from inside the boat.  The article did 
    mention that Mercruiser is still trying to stay right on top of the 
    market through innovation etc., and their reputation is anything but 
    a nightmare.  There are manufacturers who offer a choice of Mercruiser
    or Volvo/Penta but not OMC Cobra.  I always wondered why that was?
    Could it be customer satisfaction?  I'm curious too, I don't even own
    a boat, but I plan too some day, and I don't buy anything without
    doing lots of research.  None of the dealers that I have talked to
    had anything bad to say about Mercruiser, even the one who didn't
    sell them, but did sell OMC.  Is there any publication that deals
    with owner/user supplied reliability information?  Like C.U. for
    cars, appliances etc.?
    
    	Don

    In the September issue of Boating magazine(the one with the Mercruiser
    lineup), there is a feature article on a SeaRay 20 ft. bowrider.  They
    complimented the builder on the quality of construction throughout.
    There was great attention to detail, from aluminum backing plates on
    through-deck hardware all the way to the relative quietness of the
    boat.  The magazine gave the boat its highest rating, due to the
    thoroughness of the design and construction and the relative value.
    To be fair, there is no comparison with a FourWinns, but the fact
    remains that they were impressed with the redesigned SeaRay.  You
    might want to pick up this issue and read some of the comments they
    had about design, construction, etc. to help you when you are making
    the comparison.  From what I understand, both of these are good
    manufacturers who build fine boats in their class.  Your decision
    is a tough one, you need to evaluate your needs as well as the quality
    of these boats and weigh the differences in quality and features carefully.
    
    Good luck, I envy your position.
    
    	Don

RE: Note 750.12 

>>    To keep things fair...

>>  There are manufacturers who offer a choice of Mercruiser
>>  or Volvo/Penta but not OMC Cobra.  I always wondered why that was?


I agree, gotta keep things fair.  That's why it needs to be pointed out
that there are many manufacturers who offer the OMC Cobra but not the
Mercruiser.  The reason for it has nothing to do with real or perceived
quality.

It's because between Brunswick (Merc) and OMC, they own the vast majority 
of the popular boat companies.  There's another topic in here that discusses
which are owned by who.  But anyway, you won't find Brunswick putting OMC
drives in their boats or OMC installing Mercruisers in their boats.

In order to avoid relying on their competitors for motors, a lot of the
indepents have gone to Yamaha or Volvo drives.  Yamaha has done what the
Japanese do best, copy an existing product and make it better (IMO).  And
every test or article I've ever read on the Volvo Duo-Prop was very high
on it.  

OMC seems to have worked out the initial bugs with the Cobra, and Yamaha
and Volvo offer some good alternatives.  Merc is used to being on top and
probably still is, but the reason you're seeing the improvments in their
products is that the competition is hot on their tails.

Rick W.

    re:.12
    
    there is a publication that does rate/rank and truthfully discuss
    
    marine products. in fact they were so honest, Mercruiser people
    
    have been told not to talk to these folks. 
    
    
    Like they say  "Caveat Empty"
    
    JIm.

    
    As far as their boat reports go,I always take them with a grain of
    salt. Even when they say something or other could have been done better
    they are always quick to say the manufacture is already looking into
    it. I have never really seen this magazine take a stand. I find this
    file to be more helpful than any boating rag.

      
    
    
             Just my .02$ read 753.7
    
       I agree with everything else everyone said both are exellent boats!!
     
                                                             "REDEYE"

    Boat rags depend on boat and drive company advertising dollars for
    their existense.  You will never see an artical critical of a major
    manufacturer.  If a builder makes a cheap piece of crap, the mags will
    say "great value for a modest investment!"  If Brunswick, or whomever
    were to pull its advertising bucks out of a magazine, the mag would
    go out of business in no time.  In short, use the mag to see what it
    looks like, and the major features, not for quality comparisons.  
    
    Carl

Sounds like no one has heard of Powerboat Reports? They don't have pretty 
pictures, B&W only. They are expensive, 24 issues/year for $39 because they
don't accept advertising. They take money only from their customers. They
test products and boats in a Consumer Reports fashion and offer their opinions
and rank products. Their recent comparision between Wahoo and Boston Whaler
(Whaler came out on top) illustrated Wahoo's claims and prices were a bit
overblown. Unfortuntely there hasn't been any test on either of these boats, 
or on similiar ones, from these manufacturers so it isn't going to help with
this particular question. I am entering this note to say simply that there is
an independent source of info. It isn't perfect for sure, but it does exist.

Also, a magazine might not be able to withstand a major advertiser pull-out, but
some do. Reading the history of Car and Driver (similar car type rag) one finds
that several big advertisers pulled out, some still don't advertise there, and
the magazine survives. There are so many companies involved that there seems to
be enough to fill in the missing pages.

john

    Chuck,
    
    I've had 2 Four Winns boats over the past 10 years and loved them
    both!!
    
    Looked at others but always came back to Four Winns..
    
    Frank

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Note 756.0                       One for Sea Ray                      No replies
MJBOOT::WERT                                          5 lines  18-SEP-1990 15:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My vote is the for Sea Ray in general.
    
    I just purchased a 180 Sea Ray and thought that the attention to 
    detail was just a little bit better than the Fourwinns.  I would 
    also go for the most horsepower available in either model.

    re: .-1
     >My vote is the for Sea Ray in general.
    
     >I just purchased a 180 Sea Ray and thought that the attention to 
     >detail was just a little bit better than the Fourwinns.  I would 
     >also go for the most horsepower available in either model.
                      --------------------------
    
    Being relatively new to power boating, I'm curious as to why this
    recommendation is being made.  Gas prices are going up and mileage with
    big engines is pretty poor on most boats.  Don't you want to in fact go
    for the *least* horsepower consistent with your intended use? 
    
    Obviously there will be quite a range of intended uses and if you
    intend to pull two skiers while eight others come along for the ride
    you may in fact *need* the most hp available, but as a blanket
    recommendation, why?

    

    As has been discussed else where, marine engines work hard, high
    load, high revs at a constant rate (water is heavy stuff to displace).
    You will get longer engine life and better economy out of running
    a V8 at 3000 rpm than a 4/6 cylinder at 4000 rpm. The places where
    you will save gas with a smaller engine are at idle and trolling speed
    and at WOT, but at WOT the bigger engine will be going faster. This
    generally applilies to small to medium sized boats (under 30ft). Note
    there are some boats with displacement style hulls that don't go
    fast no matter how much HP is applied.
    
    There will be situations when the wind blows and your load is heavy
    that you will appreciate the bigger engine. Lastly you will
    get that investment back when you sell the boat.
    
    Bruce

Contrary to what seems obvious, a boat with a bigger engine generally 
will not burn more gas (the exception is if you were to overpower the
boat with some nasty, fuel guzzling high performance engine).  The 
reason is that a larger engine works much less to get the boat up on 
plane and maintain speed.  Larger engines generally also have a taller 
gear in the lower end and a larger pitch prop so that rpm's are lower 
at a given speed than the smaller motor.  An underpowered boat is always 
struggling, and the throttle spends a lot of the time in the wide open 
position.

As an example, Trailer Boats recently did a test of four entry level
17' bowriders.  Three of them were equipped with V6 motors, and one
had a 4 cylinder 2.3L OMC Cobra.  Of the three, the 4 cylinder got the
worst gas mileage.

Very few boat owners are unhappy with their boats because they have 
too much power.  But you can get sick of an underpowered  boat in a
hurry.  Also, as Bruce pointed out, you will almost always get your
money back on the larger engine at trade in time.  

Rick W.

    Aside from all the reasons of fuel economy, engine life, resale value
    etc. you will find, as you become more and more comfortable in the
    operation of your boat, there is no such thing as too fast. Note that I
    don't condone reckless or intoxicated (except with the speed) operation
    of a boat. My 180 SeaRay does @50mph. At first I was hesitant to go
    this fast, as I became more and more in tune with the operation of
    the vessel (power tilt etc.) I found myself wishing that I had bought
    the 210 which has a top speed of @65mph. I would recommend the SeaRay
    as it has held up under the most abusive conditions I have been able to
    expose it to. I was also caught by the difference in attention to
    detail, and I would not say that it was slight. Whatever you end up
    with enjoy it!!!

    I have a 85 model of the Sundowner called a 19.6 sport cuddy 
    or something like that.  It was before the swim platform was
    molded into the hull.  It is holding up great.  I've had it 3
    years, and once I redid some of the wiring it hasn't had a
    ny real problems (trim pump went under warantee).  And I think
    Four Winns has improved their quality since 85.
    

I haven't looked at these two boats specifically, I have brochures that include
each, but my overall impression is that Four-Winns boats are fancier, higher-
content boats than Sea Rays which come across as a bit plain and simple. Those
of us who are Sea Ray fans would like to believe that Sea Ray puts a little more
money into a little more serious and robust construciton, leaving less money to
spend on the "frills" while maintaining a competitive price. However I've never
seen a Four Winns on which I could complain about construction quality. The way
I sum it up, is that in appearance it seems as if the Sea Rays were designed and
built by experienced boat people who know what makes sense to have or to leave
off, while the Four Winns was designed to win the hearts of people who are more
familiar with automotive or home-type luxuries. 

Please, I am not saying that there is anything wrong with Four Winns, or that 
under all the luxury there isn't a good boat - there is, or that Four Winns 
doesn't sell to experienced boat people, because it sure does. All I am saying 
is that on first impression the Four Winns will look better to most people, and
certainly to those that aren't as familiar with the more practical aspects of 
boating. Another way of looking at it (from the Four Winns customer's point of 
view) is that Sea Ray is behind the times, as it isn't good enough just to 
produce a quality boat these days, many companies do that, you've got to include
some content and make them a little more civilized too.

This would be a very tough choice, primarily because the difference in engines
complicates matters. Ignoring the engines these are the points I'd consider:

The Sea Ray is a bigger boat, not by much, 4" more centerline, 2" more beam, but
enough that it is. And bigger is better, even if only a little bit, especially 
in the beam.

The Sea Ray draws 5" less water with the drives down, could make a difference
when the bottom comes close to the surface.

The Four Winns as an anchor locker, the Sea Ray doesn't (attach it to the deck
or stow it in the cockpit. The Four Winns seems to have more convenient rails
and ladder. The Four Winn's cuddy and cockpit are more nicely trimmed (not a 
quality of materials comparison, but a quantity comparison). The Four Winns 
includes port holes in the cuddy, not on the Sea Ray. 

The Sea Ray's cleats are installed in more pratical places - important in those
critical moments, it's antiskid deck plates are blocks installed into a molded 
in recesses, not strips of wood screwed onto the sides. The Sea Ray provides a 
larger, airy entrance into the cuddy. The Sea Ray's horn appears to be a lot 
more serious than the Four Winns. The Sea Ray provides a split windshield to aid
acess to the bow deck, it is an option on the Four Winns. The Sea Ray appears to
offer more room between the rear facing seats and those beside the engine access
cover than on the Four Winns - more legroom. 

Finally the Four Winns offers a more convenient full-width (molded in) swim 
platform, while the Sea Ray's is of the molded in split variety. The Sea Ray's
less convenient, and less attractive arrangement demonstrates it's worth the
first time you raise the outdrive and need access to it to clear weeds that have
collected on it.

For my use I guess you can tell I'd favor the Sea Ray, but the person refered to
in 750 is a different person with different needs. I just want to point out some
of the things I saw in a simple look at the brochures. I'd want more information
before making any final decision: comparative weights and capacity, dead raise
angle, speed/economy to engine rpm charts, more detailed info on construction
techniques as well as a good look at them. It would be great of course to have a
chance to drive both in the water.

john

    This past weekend I looked at a 4winds QUEST 257 fisherman.  Has anyone
    had any experience with this boat, it is a new design this year.  What
    about 4winds, quality, durability, handling in rough seas, strength,
    etc.  I will be taking this boat offshore out of the Merrimack river.
    
    I believe this boat was designed by the robolo engineers.  It is 25'
    with a 9'6" beam.  Powered by twin counter rotating Johnson 150 hp.
    
    It has a lot of features that I like.  I don't know anything about
    4winds boats so your input will help me make a decision.
    
    I question if twin 150's are enough power.
    
    Thanks for your help.
    
    Gordon
    

    FOUR WINNS - recently cited by a consumer report as the third best 
    boat on the market.  I don't remember who #1 and #2 were.  It caught my
    eye as I own a FOUR WINNS.
    
    The article said that the Hull construction and attention to detail
    were two keys to their rating.
    
    I also spoke to a dealer recently, (I'm Selling my boat) and he said
    that the FOUR WINNS are well received by educated boat buyers today...
                                                      
    
    Steve
     

    
    	Gordon,
    
    	About a year ago or so, Trailer Boats rated 10 boats for styling
    	comfort, drivablity and so on. FOUR WINNS was rated the best.
    	Because of the Hull construction and deep V, the boat rode the 
    	best. It was not as flashy as some of the others, but the work
    	manship, materials, attention to detail was rated very well.
    
    	I also own a FOUR WINNS (205 Cutty). I boat mainly in the Boothbay
    	area, have have been caught in some rough seas and the boat 
    	responded very well. If you choose to get a FOUR WINNS, you will
    	not be disappointed.
    
    	Good Luck
    
    	Mike

    Own a 25 Grady w/ 9'6" beam I can tell you this is great sized boat to
    fish from and take offshore. The twin 150's will not be underpowered
    but if you can afford 200' (and the gas) go for it. Check the Gradym
    Sea Ox, Proline and compare the 4winns to them (they all make
    25 wide beam fishing machines).
    
    The boat should feel like it could take more than you can. Take it
    out in a good chop and see what it feels like. A boat this size
    should go through the slop not bounce off the top of it.
    
    Bruce

    Bruce
    What do you have for power on your Grady.  The Quest weighs 5860 lbs
    and I understand that for '92 they package it with twin 200 or 250.
    I wonder why they powered up?  The twin 150 are supposed to do 41-44
    mph and the twin 200 46-49mph, 41 mph if plenty for me.  Maybe out of
    the hole or in rough seas the extra power is needed.  My 22' angler has
    a 150 and it moves along just fine about 35 on a flat sea and the quest
    isn't all that much heaver.  The 20 degree deadrise and deep v hull
    will eat up some of the power.
    
    The angler was underpowered with the 115 hp that I had on there before
    and I donot want another underpowered boat.  You have to run it harder
    to achieve the same results.  I think you will probably use the same
    gas with the 200's because you are not running them as hard.
    
    I really like the design of this boat.  It was designed with fishing in
    mind and has some creature comforts as well.
    
    Now if I can get it at a price that I can afford.
    
    Thanks for all the input.
    Gordon

    	I don't have any first hand knowledge about the boat you are
    looking at but it sounds like it has the makings a good offshore 
    performer. The 9 1/2' beam and deep v are just the ticket for that kind
    of thing.
    	Judging from other combos I've seen I'd tend toward the larger
    engines. Twin 225's seem to be very popular, when you want to haul a@*
    you'll be able to do it. Like on those dead calm days when you want to
    head way out but don't want to spend all day getting there. Just bring
    plenty of friends to chip in for the gas.  ;^)

As this reply is somewhat related to the discussion, I decided not to anger the
disk utilization gods and just entered the note here.

I've just about completed my first year (whisper please, the snow gods are
listening) and I thought a look back is in order.

I purchased a Four Winns Freedom 170 in April.  Since then I have  put about
100 hours on the boat - all fresh water, mostly water sports.  It stays in the
water most of the time, but has been trailered on occasion to other locations.

The bottom line: I am generally please with the boat in all dimensions including
features, performance, workmanship, ease of maintenance and what I'll call "the
ability NOT to break down in the worst possible situations."

The engine is a 3.0L.  Granted, it is small, but I have no problem getting up
on a slalom with both feet in (195 lbs.).  Those prone to better eating habits
have no problem as well.  I'm basically "self-maintenance" and I find that the
engine is easily accessible and service is straightforward.  I am really glad
that I invested in an OMC Service manual (not the "unauthorized" ones) and a
parts book.  These are really helpful when you're trying to order a new
"thingamagiggy".  Most shops now are computerized and the part number really 
helps with availability questions.

The hull and interior have held up well.  I'm getting my money's worth from
the mooring cover - the boat stays dry and clean.  I don't see any evidence
of gelcoat problems and the vinyl and rug have held up well.  I manage to give
the boat a thorough cleaning inside and out frequently as the boat is basically
white with minor trim colors.

The boat trailers well.  I pulled it behind my Bronco II and it rode really
nicely through the Adirondacks.  I kept the mooring cover on; the cover stayed
in place and the boat stayed clean.

Ok already, did -anything-  go wrong, or what?  Yep...

Some of the bolts in the seats (especially the driver's seat) fell out early
on.  I suspect they just weren't tightened well at the factory.  I found a bolt
that holds the starter bracket to the engine in the bilge.  A month later, I 
found the bolt on the starter that holds this bracket sheared off.  August 
brought me a dead tilt.  Seems that the  wire was not installed properly and
the "up" wire broke.  Of course I did not discover it until I was gliding
nicely into my shallow dock, trying desperately to get the prop up!  On a
similar topic, the clip that holds the tilt switch in place on the handle kept
popping out.  When I replaced it, I saw that the new one was different; seems
OMGC redesigned it.  Wonder why...

A problem that really cannot be fixed (inherent design problem) is the dash
lights.  At night, I get a perfect (albeit backwards) heads-up display on
the dashboard.  The only way to see out is to stand up; not always convenient
or safe.  I plan on contacting Four Winns on this.

All the problems were quickly rectified and parts were inexpensive.  The
main problem is inconvenience.  My dealer is in Rhode Island and other places
like Maring USA wanted the boat for at least a day.  That meant hauling the
boat, driving it down and the retrieving it.  I opted in most cases to
purchase the part and perform the work using the service manual.  I am in the
process of authoring a note similar to this to send to Four Winns.

I would recommend Four Winns if asked.

Things I like and/or glad I purchased:

- Four Winns trailer - it really fits the boat
- Mooring cover 
- open bow
- hour meter (not standard, but easy to install)

Wish I'd passed on/need:

- pass: full canvas - we use the boat with everything off - if the weather is
  that bad, we don't go out. I do, however, use the bow cover to close
  that off when not in use.
- need: a slightly bigger engine
- need: less wake (I know...inboard)


/Chris

    RE: .34
    
    
>>A problem that really cannot be fixed (inherent design problem) is the dash
>>lights.  At night, I get a perfect (albeit backwards) heads-up display on
>>the dashboard.  The only way to see out is to stand up; not always convenient
>>or safe.  I plan on contacting Four Winns on this.
    
    I also had a problem with the dashboard (and compass) lights on my 1987
    211 liberator. Four Winns uses the same switch to activate the running
    lights and the dash lights. My fix was to cut the connection to the
    dash lights from the running light switch and insert a toggle
    switch. Now, I can choose if I want dash lights or not when the running
    lights are on. On my compass I did the same thing but I also added a
    dimmer. It works great.
    
    
    Scott
    

re                       <<< Note 750.34 by MIZZEN::DEMERS >>>
>                       -< Four Winns 1991 retrospective >-

> A problem that really cannot be fixed (inherent design problem) is the dash
> lights.  At night, I get a perfect (albeit backwards) heads-up display on
> the dashboard.  The only way to see out is to stand up; not always convenient
> or safe.  I plan on contacting Four Winns on this.

	If this is a reflection in the windshield it might be possible 
to fix it with   T_E_C_H_N_O_L_O_G_Y   (ta dahh)

	I don't know where to get it, but a sheet of polarizing 
plexiglass/lexan could be used to cover the dash board.  Another sheet 
could be attached to the windshield with its polarizing direction at 
90 degrees to the one on the dash board.  You would probably want to 
chose the polarization direction for the windshield piece to minimize 
reflections off the water.  Little plastic suction cups could be used 
to attach both sheets, at least while you experiment.

	Reg

    Gorden, i have out of these notes for a little bit. I have a 330 HP OMC
    i/o (ford 460) with a 15x16 stainless wheel. The grady is heavy
    around 6000lbs plus gas....I burn alot of gas with the big block
    a solid 12 gall/hr at 3600 rpm 20+knots cruise with a full load.
    
    I will say the boat can take much more than I can and has the hp
    to muscle through anything. I would like more speed than I have 
    so if I had to do it again I would opt for the twin 200's or
    better yet nice disiel that would be easyier at the gas dock.
    Makes me sick that diesel fuel is $1 a gallong and gas is is $1.54
    a gallon.
    
    Bruce

    Bruce,
    
    Thanks for the response.  It looks like twin 200's would be better but
    twin 150 will also be adequate.  The  25' Quest appears to be about the
    same size/weight as your Grady, so 300hp should move it along just
    fine.
    
    Good article about the Quest 23' cc in Oct Salt Water sportsman.  Ran
    from Fla to the Bahamas in 6'-10' seas.
    
    Gordon
    

I got a survey just after I purchased the boat.  Just last week, I received 
another survey entitled "now that you've had a chance to...etc".

Funny thing, I had just finished a letter to them outlining my experiences 
(mostly positive,but some real issues).  This time, I filled in the survey, 
enclosed the letter and gave them some action items.

I'll let you know.

After 1 season, ~100 hours, I'm very pleased with the boat.

C'mon spring!

/Chris

I'm about to close a deal on a 1990 4Winns 180 Horizon with 4.3L V6.  This
boat only has 125 hours on it and is in mint condition.  I'm wondering if
there are any gatcha's I should be aware of with this boat.  The dealer
mentioned that the OMC recall had been performed for a slipping clutch problem
which had affected all OMC I/O's for that year.  Is anyone aware of any other
problems/recalls that I should be aware of for the boat or motor?

Also, I'd be interested to hear any comments on the Marvin Village Marina in
Marvin Village, NH.  I spent a couple of hours talking with the owner about 
every 4Winns and Stingray in this class and he was a pleasure to deal with.

Gregg

    
    	Gregg,
    
    	I have a 1988 4Winns 205 Sundowner that I bought new at Melvin
    	Village Marina. The boat has the same engine (4.3L V6). I have been 
    	very pleased with the product and the service from the dealer. 
    	To my knowledge there has only been the one re-call (slipping
        clutch). Tom the owner is super to work with. Good Luck with
    	the boat. If you like you can give me a call.
    
    
    	Mike 

I have friends who have a 4Winns from Melvin Village Marine and have been
pleased with both the boat and the dealer. They had a rather severe engine
problem after a year which the dealer handled very smoothly and quickly under
the warranty.

Dave

PS. I assume this is what you will be towing from the bumper of your
Explorer...

Yes, this is the boat I will be towing and it's going to drive me crazy
having to wait 2 weeks to put it in the water.

Tom took me out for a test drive in the boat this Wednesday, the lake was a
little cold, but the rain held off and there was enough chop to get an idea
how the boat handled.  I guess I'm hooked.

Gregg