Conference vicki::boats

    its the way you ask the question, that prompts me to ask for more info.
    1st i don't see any problem with replacing a plexiglass windshield.
    you don't have to replace the frame. does it have some curves or
    shapes in it that make it unusual....?????
    
    if their just straight pieces, (no bends curves) you'll need the 
    thickness, measure it, plexi is sold by the square foot.
    
    have the glass co. cut it to size and do the replacement yourself.
    
    
    Your sure its plexiglass, right.....
    
    JIm

    
    
    If it is a curved windshield, Check with some of th marine catalogs
    (including sears boating catalog. Complete windhield assemblies are
    available at discounts that are replacements for most run-a-bouts.
    The whole assy will be a lot cheaper than having a custom piece of
    plexiglass made up.
     
     
    
     If it is a flat windshield,make sure it's plexiglass. If it's glass,
    any automotive glass shop can cut you a piece of flat safety glass.
    Make sure you use safety glass- plate glass can shatter!
                                              

    Would this also be the same for a hatch cover that recently cracked on
    me from the wake of another boat?  I was thinking of removing the hatch
    cover and bringing it to a glass/windshield company and asking them to
    replace the cracked unit.  Should I begin to shop for replacement hatch
    cover plexiglass at marine stores?  I am sure that somewhere in this
    conference has broken the plexiglass in there hatch cover and can offer
    some suggestions on its replacement.
    
    Thanks for the help,
    
    Frank

From the July 10-16 issue of the Want ADvertiser:

Multi-Fab
12 Sturtevant St.
Boston, MA 02122

Boat Windshields, Spray Guards, Hatch Covers, Instrument Panels,
Consoles, Etc.

Tel. 617-287-1411
FAX  617-287-0299


(The usual disclaimer, I have no association or dealings with these 
 people, only saw their ad in the Want Ad.)

Rick W.

    I went to a local boat dealer looking for a good quality plexiglass
    cleaner before I replaced the windshield.  They told me that it would
    be better for me to use a good quality non abrasive car wax to bring
    it back.
    
    I tried it over the weekend and it brought the windshield back to
    almost new condition.  It also works on side curtains as well.
    
    The windshield in my boat had a haze from all of the scratches and
    not that is gone.

    I used Plexiglass cleaner on my 25 year old windshield.  It took
    three applications but all except the worst scratches came out and
    even they can hardly be seen.  
    Wayne

    	I've never tried it, but an older gent I met said that toothpaste
    worked great.  He was part of a Navy squadron flight maintenance crew
    and that's what they used on the WWII fighter cockpits.
    
    FWIW

    
    	Over the holiday week,my molded plexiglass windshield had a
    terrible accident,as result now I need a replacement.A few years back,I
    had the windshield made by a place in Coventry R.I. named A&G Propeller
    (I am not sure if that's the correct name),but I lost the paper
    work,phone number ect.( somebody kick me ).Would any one know their
    phone number or address.I have called the Coventry chamber of commerce
    and they did not know of them.Or if you know of anyone else that does
    molded plexiglass windshield.
    
    
    	Any help will be greatly appreciated
    
    	Norm

RE: .8

Norm, I have their card right here in my hand.

   A & G Propeller Co.
   26 Lamphear St.
   Coventry, RI  02816
   (401)-821-4880

I had a couple of props refurbished there and they did an excellent job...and
cheap too.  I haven't been there in a couple of year, however.  Good luck.

...Roger...

P.S.  Contact me offline if you wish.  I go to R.I. all the time (my boat is in
      a fresh water lake in Coventry) so maybe I can save you a few steps.

    
    	RE-10	Thank you very much Roger for the phone number and address.
    I gave them a call,and after talking to them,they still do replacement
    windshields.Also over the weekend I brought my boat to Valley Marina to
    see if I could put a windshield with aluminum frame without making the
    boat look to weird.It's still up there getting measured.If they can't
    I'll most likely take a ride to R.I.
    
    
    
    	Norm
    
    
    P.S.- Roger,on that rumor of a ski show in R.I.,is it possible to
    bring a boat,so that the show may be watched from a good vantage point,
    possibly take pictures of these rumored festivities....

RE: Norm ... you're welcome.  Glad you found what you need.

...Roger...

    I really did it this time.
    
    I just went up to Maine to uncover my boat and start Spring
    commisioning. To my horror I found that the snow load on the tarp
    smashed my windshield (which disintegrated into a zillion pieces the
    largest of which was about the size of the dime).  It took me three
    hours to clean up the mess.  There was glass everywhere.
    
    The original windshield was a curved piece of real glass. The boat is
    no longer being made and the dealer told me it would me big bucks (and
    time) to get a custom one fitted and made.
    
    Obviously from this note windshields can be made of plexiglass.  Can I
    just buy a rectangular piece of plexiglass and bend it to fit the
    curve?  As far as I can measure, the opening is in fact a rectangle
    about 21" x 60".  The curve consists of a bow of maybe 3" along the
    horizontal dimension.  This would easily seem to be within the
    bendability of 1/8" plexiglass.   Or are windshields made out of some
    other kind of non-bendable type of plexiglass?
    
    So much for an early launch....

re       <<< Note 712.13 by TOOK::SWIST "Jim Swist LKG2-2/T2 DTN 226-7102" >>>
    
    
>    The original windshield was a curved piece of real glass. The boat is
>    no longer being made and the dealer told me it would me big bucks (and
>    time) to get a custom one fitted and made.

	Any chance your insurer would cover the cost ?   You would 
still have the time issue, but this was an unusual winter - so they 
may not throw the  "negligent or inadequate preparation for winter 
storage"  clauses at you (-:
      
>    Obviously from this note windshields can be made of plexiglass.  Can I
>    just buy a rectangular piece of plexiglass and bend it to fit the
>    curve?  As far as I can measure, the opening is in fact a rectangle

	I don't think they're made of regular DIY store plexiglass, 
something harder and more scratch resistant maybe.  I think Craig at 
NECC once told me its the same (similar ?) stuff they use for fighter 
plane windsheilds (maybe generic airplane windsheilds ?).  You might 
find a source for hard scratch resistant stuff in the flying notes 
conference - wherever that is ??

>    about 21" x 60".  The curve consists of a bow of maybe 3" along the
>    horizontal dimension.  This would easily seem to be within the
>    bendability of 1/8" plexiglass.   Or are windshields made out of some

	Yes, most plexis and plastics can bend to that without the 
need for heat setting

>    other kind of non-bendable type of plexiglass?

	see above,  get  "the hard stuff"  

	It has a commercial/generic name, which I can't remember right 
now - maybe I'll remember it half way through my 10:00 meeting (-:

>    So much for an early launch....

	"Early"  was a while ago.

	Reg	{LATE}

re: -1,-2
    
    I know we used LEXAN on our Digital products way back when but not
    sure if this material is what you may be referring too.  It was much
    stronger then plexiglass and could withstand a lot of impact.  It also
    would not shatter but crack.  I don't believe it had that inner
    material like on car windows that is a thin film of stuff meant to
    keep the shattered glass from flying around?
    
    Anyway good luck on finding a replacement....SOON!!!
    -< Tuna Tail >- aboard the FishTeaser

re:      <<< Note 712.13 by TOOK::SWIST "Jim Swist LKG2-2/T2 DTN 226-7102" >>>


	Jim, my mother works at a plexiglass company in Boston
	(Dorchester - the good part ;-).   I can get the phone #
	if you need it to direct some of your questions. I think 
	they'd be able to help.

	Freeman's Plexiglass - they advertise in the sports section
	of the Boston Globe a lot.

	Ken

re .15  (I think)

	Yes,  "LEXAN"  is what I have heard is (was) used for aircraft 
windsheilds.  Supposedly much more scratch resistant than 'regular' 
plexiglass, but no more difficult to cut with sabre-saws, hack-saws, 
etc.  I know nothing about price though.

	re  3 layer glass;  one of the commercial names is  "Triplex"  
and there was (maybe still is) a lot of controversy over how  "safe"  
it is relative to toughened, tempered, zone-toughened glass for 
windsheilds.  Kinda like with issues over seat-belts and cycle helmets; 

"Exactly which kind of accident are you aiming for  ?"   )-:

	'nother conference...


	Reg

    I would check out how much an exact replacement really is. My venturi
    windshield was cracked a few years back in a wind storm and my boat was
    out of production. The dealer located the original part supplier who
    supplied the windshield to the boat builder. I called them up and they
    custom made one for me. It was only $150.00 or so. You might check it
    out.

    re: .-1
    
    The dealer said "big bucks" and when a *boat dealer* says that you
    worry.
    
    Luckily I didn't hastily order a rectangular piece of plexiglass. If
    you flatten a curved and raked surface (whose bottom/top/sides form a
    rectangle when viewed head-on in a two dimensional view), then what you
    get is sort of a fat arc of a circle, not a rectangle.
    
    I talked to a glass company nearby (in Maine) and said they've done
    boat windshields before and that I need to bring in a cardboard
    template.  The person didn't mention whether or not they use Lexan or
    s ome other fancy plexiglas.  I'll ask when I go in.
     

    Lexan is a trademark. Generically, it is polycarbonate. It is much
    tougher and safer than plexiglass. I would not use plexiglass for a
    winshield, due to the knife-like sharp edges that are formed when it
    breaks. I doubt if a professional would (would be allowed to?) install
    plexiglas for a windshield. Virtually all windshields that I am aware
    of are polycarbonate (snowmobiles and the like). 
    
    If it were me, I'd be sure that it was somebody's brand of
    polycarbonate, if it didn't say "Lexan" on it.
    
    Bill
    
    

re: Note 712.19
>>    The dealer said "big bucks" and when a *boat dealer* says that you
>>    worry.
  
I would still at least check to see how much it is, with another dealer
if necessary.  The dealer's idea of big bucks may not seem that big to 
you, especially if insurance will contribute toward it.  What the dealer 
may really be saying is "we're not dealing with that company any more, 
and it'd be a real hassle for me to get you the windshield".

The reason I stress getting the right windshield, is that unless the
custom made replacement looks *just* right (now, and a few years from 
now too...), any savings is going to cost you down the road, when you 
go to sell or trade the boat.  A bad looking windshield could easily 
de-value the boat by more than the amount you saved.  If the insurance 
will cover most of it, I'd do it right, otherwise you may take the hit 
later.

Rick

    
    Just one additional comment.....
    
    	Some, but not all, boat manufacturers use windshields from
    a "windshield supplier" such as Taylor. Is it that possible that
    this is the case with your boat?
    
    Just a thought...
    
    Rick
    
    	re: Devaluing the boat... Best (read: worst) windshield replacement
    I saw was on some old tub on the river that had a storm window which
    was formerly attached to a house turned sideways and mounted at an
    angle in place of the original windshield... I guess it musta worked
    

re       <<< Note 712.13 by TOOK::SWIST "Jim Swist LKG2-2/T2 DTN 226-7102" >>>
    
>    The original windshield was a curved piece of real glass. The boat is
>    no longer being made and the dealer told me it would me big bucks (and
>    time) to get a custom one fitted and made.

	The boat manufacturer may be gone, but the windsheild 
manufacturer may still be around.  Taylor is one company that I know 
makes windsheilds for lots of boat makers, there are others.  You 
might be able to find the windsheild makers name on the frame, if so 
contacting them directly is probably the cheapest wat to go.
    
>    about 21" x 60".  The curve consists of a bow of maybe 3" along the
>    horizontal dimension.  This would easily seem to be within the

	I think in a later reply you wrote something about making a 
cardboard pattern ??   Here's a couple of thoughts on that,

i)	You'll need a  *_HUGE_*  sheet of cardboard (obviously).  I'd 
start scrounging at the local appliance stores for a fridge sleeve, 
you can probably get four tries out of one of those.

ii)	This will have to be a precision pattern, you probably need 
to be within  -1/16'th  +0  on every dimension.  Don't even THINK 
about starting this until the frame is all straightened out again.  I
think I would try making the cardboard pattern first;  transfer that
to 1/4 inch plywood, but cut it 1/8'th inch wider  all around - then
trim the plywood to fit  *_EXACTLY_*  before going to the glass shop. 

iii)	The frame corners are probably held together with pop rivets.  
I would leave them in until the plywood pattern is very close to 
perfect, then drill them out and have the right number of the right 
size self tappers ready to re-assemble the frame around the plywood 
pattern.

	This probably sounds like a lot of fussy work, but its a way 
to Maine - so think it through and make sure you have everything you 
need for the trip.

	FWIW, etc.


	Reg

re  .22  and  .23

	Notes collision   -   both on notes break at the same time, I guess.

	R

    
    re: Material
    
    Yes, it appears that Lexan is the stuff to use.  The 3 plexiglass
    suppliers I called all carried Lexan.
    
    Why do I need such an accurate template?   The windshield is set into
    a rubber gasket on all four sides which then slides into the frame.
    There must be a good 3/4" depth in the gasket slot.  
    
    btw, the top of the frame unscrews, the other three sides are fixed.  I
    presume all I need to do is slide the new window into the gaskets and
    replace the top.  Yes/No?
    
    
        ----------           -> Aluminum frame
        | ---------          -> rubber gasket
        | | ------------------> glass
        | ---------
        ----------
    
    
    

    I'm getting quotes of $60 and 1-2 days max for lexan.  Finding the
    original maker of the windshield will be tough given it can't be
    recovered from a zillion little pieces and the boat isn't made anymore.
    So why would I go any other way than the Lexan?  My glasses are made of
    polycarbonate are they seem to wear as well as glass.
    
    btw, that $60 is just to cut it.  I'm still presuming that I can
    install it myself.  Does anyone know if there's an issue with bending a
    5' length of Lexan?  I know plexiglass would work.  The radius of the
    curve is pretty big, I'm guessing that there is a max deflection of
    maybe 6" off straight.
    
    If I'm wrong then I have to get it formed (not all glass dealers have
    the equipment to do this, btw), in which case I'll need a 3-dimensional
    template.  Yuck.
    

Lexan does scratch fairly easily and tends to get cloudy with time. I
rebuilt our hatches with gray 3/8" Lexan in 1986, and the Lexan
certainly is no longer clear enough for a windshield (I haven't tried
polishing it). Lexan is also very expensive -- several times the price
of Plexiglass, as I recall. There is a type of Lexan that has a
scratch-resistant coating. Even more expensive, but probably desirable
for a windshield. The coated variety isn't supposed to be bent much. It
is made by GE, so you probably should call an industrial plastics
distributor and ask about this before buying. Back when I bought Lexan, 
the price varied significantly from vendor to vendor. The place I bought 
it no longer sells retail. 

Lexan is easily cut on a table saw with an appropriate good carbide blade 
(<$60 for a Freud blade). It can probably also be cut easily on a 
bandsaw. 

One more thought: Some (if not many or most) windshields have compound 
curves, ie, they're bent in two directions. If your windshield has a 
compound curve, you won't be able to bend either Plexiglass or Lexan 
without heating it (which is no doubt difficult).

I wouldn't use plastic without exhausting every possibility of find 
glass.

Alan

  You may not have the windshield manufacture's name because the windshield on
YOUR boat is in pieces, but that doesn't mean that someone else (possibly in
this notes conference) has the same brand of boat and can read the name off
his/her windshield.  

  what boat/model are you working on???

Al

    re: .-2   
    
    I'll ask questions about the Lexan.  It is my understanding that (the
    right kind of) plastic is almost as good as glass for this application.
    
    re: .-1   
    
    This is a 1990 Sunbird 204.  It's an el-cheapo boat.  I ordered a
    camper top for it two years after I bought it.  Didn't fit right to the
    windshield frame - that's when I learned that a fact of life of the
    manufacture of cheap boats is that the builder takes parts
    semi-randomly from whoever supplies them cheapest.  There are at least
    two kinds of windshield frames on 1990 Sunbird 204s. This kind of thing
    is rarely documented and the only way to see if something fits is to
    try it. I don't really feel like dealing with this again.  I'll go with
    the plastic - I only need another year from it and the resale value of
    a low-end boat moored for 4 years in saltwater is hardly going to be
    affected by the windshield material.
    
    ps: Whalers and the like have a document which tracks which
    manufacturer's parts were used in which boats.  You pays your money...

    I needed just the rubber gasket under my windshield frame for my 26
    year old Century.  I found the Taylor sticker on the frame when I took
    it off (along with the boat's hull number engraved in the frame).  At
    the time, the Sears marine catalog still carried Taylor repalcement
    parts and complete windshields identical to mine.  If they still stock
    26 year windshields, I'm sure they would still stock your three year
    old parts.  It would be worth a call to them if you could just find the
    sticker on your frame.
    Wayne

    Well just to satisfy all possible routes I called the dealer who is
    going to check with the manufacturer to see if they still stock it.
    
    He said 
    
    (1) It will be a complete windshield assembly, can't get just the glass
    (note this is a *lot* harder to replace than just the glass)
    
    (2) It will be *several* hundred $, maybe as much as $500.
    
    I think I'll try the $60 piece of lexan.  If I can't get it to work
    I'll try something else.  $500 is still better than no windshield.
    
    

    If you use lexan, you can restore it's clarity, and remove the very
    faint scratches with Raindance car wax.  It is a gritless wax, I use it
    on my 14 year old motorcycle fairing windshield.  Wash the windsheild
    with dish soap, a sponge, and lots of water, then apply.  Reapply about 
    every month in season.  Your windshield will look like new again.
    
    Carl
     

    Went up to the boat on Sat.   Used a large piece of cardboard as a
    template, but I had a lot of trouble cutting the template accurately
    since the edge of the class is buried in a gasket, there's nothing to
    trace against - so I didn't have much confidence in the fit.
    
    So I went to the glass dealer and bought a rectangular piece of Lexan
    bigger in both dimensions that the actual opening.  The guy at the
    glass dealer said it cuts easily with a sabre saw (and he recommended
    a coarse blade?!), so I decided that an iterative trim-and-fit 
    approach was most likely to succeed.  I'll do it on the next trip
    up when I can work uninterrupted by screaming kids...
    
    It's also as flexible as plexiglass so no problem there.  The glass
    people said they do boat windshields with it all the time and it's
    as good as glass and much less likely to break under stress.
    

    
    Here's the end of the story (hopefully).
    
    Installed the Lexan yesterday.  I taped it over the windshield frame,
    traced the opening, and then cut with a coarse blade sabre saw.  The
    cut was easy and clean (I think the backing paper on both sides helps).
    No problem re-installing it, but my observation is that this stuff is
    even more flexible than plexiglass - I can easily bend the windshield
    by pushing on it.  Maybe shoulda got a thicker piece, but then it
    wouldn't fit the gaskets, etc, etc.  Oh well, it will work fine, just
    gives the boat an (even more) mickey mouse feel (it looks fine).
    
    I was impressed with the fact that while very flexible, polycarbonate
    appears to be impossible to actually break - I had two 5' long narrow
    pieces of scrap after the cut.  I tried to bend/break them in half so
    they'd fit in the garbage can - I could not do this by folding the
    piece over and stomping on it (and I weigh 210).  And I couldn't
    scratch it with a knife point.
    
    Impressive stuff, but I'd recommend the 1/8" variety only for much 
    applications (my windshield was ~5'x2').
    
    Next Sat is launch day!  (If another disaster doesn't strike),