Conference vicki::boats

    There is *LOTS* of advice in this notesfile for a novice-soon-to-be-pro
    skier.  I'd suggest you search through the file (DIR/TITLE=SKI turns up
    lots of notes).  In particular, there's good information about skis in
    notes 51 and 92, and some beginner tips in note 112.
    
    But I will offer some information...you'll want to start out on a ski
    that's no longer than 66".  The brand you choose at this point will
    probably be based more on appearance than performance characteristics,
    but I'd recommend an intermediate recreational ski for now.  The key to
    maintaining balance through the wakes is to keep your shoulders back
    and your knees bent.  You must think "slice through the wake" and not
    "slam into the wake."  Maintaining the ski on edge is the only way to
    keep full control through the wakes.
    
    Good luck, and keep us posted as to your progress.
    
    ...Roger...

     Roger,thanks alot for referring me to those note numbers.Theres
    a vast amount of information to read.
    

  Roger,  
    Well,Ive sure read alot in this file.I think Ive got some knowlage
    in what to do.
    Im going  boatin' this weekend at Lake Don Pedro,California.Thinking
    about renting a Kidder.Im gonna shred.   
    Ive notice your pretty active in this conference.How long have you
    been skiing?
                        Wish me luck,
                                      
                        =Tom=
     

    RE: =Tom=
    
    I've been gliding across the water (at various levels of skill) for
    over 20 years!  I learned to ski when I was 6, and I'm 30 now (yes, I
    admit it!).  I love it...there's no better feeling (well, maybe *one*
    better feeling...:-) ).
    
    I don't know where Lake Don Pedro is, but if it's anywhere near L.A.
    then I'm bummin' that I didn't run into you about 2 years ago when I
    was out there for a conference.  I was looking for someone to give me
    an excuse to blow off a day of the conference!
    
    Cut it up!
    
    ...Roger...

    
    Lake Don Pedro is close to the Sierra Nevada mountains.Way north
    of L.A. Its approx.175 miles east of San Francisco.Ill be sure
    to let you know how it goes.
    
    

  Lake Don Pedro went good.Weather was hot and clear.I did alot better
    than ayear ago.Every time Im out there I learn something new.
    I used 3 different kinds of skis.A Connely,O'Brian,and a Kidder.
    I liked the Kidder the best due to its capability to cut.It was
    really touchy.
    I learned one thing though.Without being in shape one tends to be
    a very sore person.Right now I feel like cardboard.
    
    I was able to cut through those wakes easily.All it seemed to me
    was that once you cut in torwards the wake,you stay in the same
    angle and go into it.Was it me,or does it take more strength to
    do all that.Cause once I was behind the boat the pull was the
    strongest.
    

    .6>> I was able to cut through those wakes easily.All it seemed to me
    .6>> was that once you cut in torwards the wake,you stay in the same
    .6>> angle and go into it.Was it me,or does it take more strength to
    .6>> do all that.Cause once I was behind the boat the pull was the
    .6>> strongest.
    
Yup, you got it!  Maintain the angle through the wakes, then *smoothly* come
back to the vertical position to setup for the next turn.  Does it take more
strength?  You're darn right it does!  You're no longer "riding" over the wakes,
but pulling through them.  Newton's law applies here; you know, "For every
action..."  Maximum pull is directly behind the boat, but not maximum
acceleration, which comes just out of the turn.

This water skiing stuff can be alot like work, eh?  :-)

...Roger...

    How is one to get in such an angle that their shoulder glides across
    the water?I see these guys,and they cut,it seems as if they lean
    back and the front of their ski rides high.
    Is it all in the back ankle when one cuts?
    
    

The angle of the ski is determined by how much pressure you apply with *both*
feet, although your back foot will ultimately determine the direction you head
in.  Getting your shoulders low to the water isn't the idea, as much as keeping
them back to resist the pull of the boat.

Now if you're trying to do a body slide, that's a different story.  :-)

...Roger...

    
     I would like to go a little lower.Im probably about like this:/
    as for angle.Im nervous that Ill just fall over if I try to hit
    a good angle.
     As I watch others,its as if they just lean WAY back and cut and
    there they go,in one hell of an angle.
     I hope to catch on.Ill have my chance this week.Im going to
    Shasta Lake in Northern California for a few days.That lake
    turns glassy all of the time.
    

Here's another tip which depends on how confident your are in your ability to
cut through the wake without looking at it.  Try turning your head toward the
wake, but look BEHIND YOU and toward the shoreline (or horizon)!  (What's he,
nuts!?).  Yes, if you turn your head in the direction of the turn, then
"over-extend" your look to go toward the back, you'll get *LOTS* of angle.  This
will help you accelerate over the wake, and you'll find that the wake almost
disappears (you'll feel two small bumps and you'll be on the other side).  It
works.  You just gotta believe that you can take the wake without anticipating
it (trust your basic skiing ability).  Let's face it, if you had to setup for
every wave that you hit, skiing wouldn't be fun, now would it?  Treat the wake
in the same way.

...Roger...

    
    Roger,
          That sounds pretty good.I can picture doing it in my mind.
    Come this Thursday I hope to expand my abilities or break my
    leg!!! How long should my rope be. The one ive been using has
    been pretty  short.
                        Tom
    

    Tom,
      Since your gonna be in that area anyway, why don't you take a lesson
    from Mike Suyderhoud's Ski School (916-222-8826).  It's amazing what a
    good instuctor can identify and help you correct as far as technique
    goes. I don't know if they're right on Lake Shasta or not but their in
    the area. You might also consult the Yellow Pages for schools on Lake
    Shasta, I know they're there. (names just don't come immediately to
    mind) Good Luck!
    Doug

>cut through the wake without looking at it.  Try turning your head toward the
>wake, but look BEHIND YOU and toward the shoreline (or horizon)!  (What's he,

I tried this yesterday Roger, and it works!  Great tip.

Jeanne  -- sure has been windy lately!  :>(

RE: Jeanne  Yeah, I think the wake is this mystical barrier that is somehow
amplified by your optic nerves!  If you think about it, when you're out skiing
around and just cutting casually back and forth the only thing you notice is the
wake, even though you probably ski over many larger waves made by other boats.
But you only notice the wake!  Why?  Probably because every time you cross it
you're looking at it.  Not so with most of the other waves.  So the lesson here
is to use the same "let your skiing instincts work for you" and concentrate your
efforts on more important things like handle and shoulder position, leaning away
from the boat, and making smooth edge transitions.

RE: Tom...rope length is not a big issue, although I've found that if you want
to do some wild cutting, you should bring the rope in to 15' off.  Much less
slack if you goof up a turn, and the wake is a bit softer closer to the boat.

...Roger...

re           <<< Note 687.15 by ROGER::GAUDET "Nothing unreal exists" >>>
>                               -< Turn and burn >-

> RE: Jeanne  Yeah, I think the wake is this mystical barrier that is somehow
> amplified by your optic nerves!  If you think about it, when you're out skiing

	right !   ....I think I had learned to ignore it somewhat with 
the other (smaller and lighter) boat and when I was using a wooden 
ski, I was probably going slower then due to more lift and less body 
weight.  But, as we saw  AGAIN yesterday, I lose my nerve and flatten
out when I see all that boiling water rushing up at me.   Why ?
(rhetorical);  at a guess there's something sub-conscious about having
first come up in the wake and taken all the initial falls there, then
getting out of it and enjoying flat water.  Additionally when first
pulling away from the boat there's an easily reached limit to both
speed and distance that can be reached and its self limiting.  When
cutting  INTO  the wake it just seems like the acceleration will
continue and the fall will be at some incredible speed ...and, as I 
said it will be in that area where all my initial falls were, etc. 

	Reg	{I'll get it yet}

    RE: .16
    
>> speed and distance that can be reached and its self limiting.  When
>> cutting  INTO  the wake it just seems like the acceleration will
>> continue and the fall will be at some incredible speed ...and, as I 
>> said it will be in that area where all my initial falls were, etc. 
    
    Yup, that's exactly right.  What inevitably happens is that you'll
    attain this incredible speed, then try to compensate for bad body
    position by rocking forward (breaking at the waist).  Once this
    happens, you're in trouble.  If your shoulders are back and the handle
    is low (around your hip) you have much greater control because your
    center of gravity is low.  Letting your CG get too high (by holding the
    handle up to your chest and/or having your shoulders forward) will
    allow the boat to pull you forward, and the result is a rather abrupt
    encounter with the lake.
    
    Another thing to remember is to try getting into a rhythm.  Don't pull
    through the wake and keep pulling until you're on the side of the boat.
    This is where you get lots of slack, and then you get pulled forward
    when it tightens up.  Use the boat, don't let it use you!  Pull through
    the wake and begin the edge change just passed the second wake.  Do it
    SMOOTHLY!  Let the handle out slowly, and rotate your shoulders toward
    the boat as you change edge.  What you'll find in this case is the ski
    will do most of the work in the turn, and you get to go along for the
    ride!
    
    ...Roger...

	I'm off to see the EAP rep  - -  see if they can get me a 
	therapist to help me get over my  "WAKE PHOBIA"

	Reg

    
    And you know what that EAP rep is going to tell you Reg?!
    
       "But Reg, there is *NO* wake behind that 1990 No Wake Nautique"!
    
    Jeanne (who loved skiing behind the no wake/no spray Nautique)
    

re                 <<< Note 687.19 by DONVAN::DECAROLIS "Jeanne" >>>
>                                -< What wake?! >-
    
>       "But Reg, there is *NO* wake behind that 1990 No Wake Nautique"!

	Yeah, I need a pillow speaker and a sleep cassette with that 
line on it  - -  bit'o new age accompaniment, wind and surf backing,
and a 351 PCM playing the lead line. 


>    Jeanne (who loved skiing behind the no wake/no spray Nautique)

	Any time Jeanne, how about Attitash some time next week ?

	R  {wake warrior wannabe}

What is a wake?

Rob...who bought a Master Craft years ago and hasn't seen a wake since.

    
    Roger,
      Your advice really helped me out.One day out of four I was cuttin'
    good.I had good water and was relaxed.Yesturday wasnt that hot.
    I kept anticipating the wake and Id shoot over it on a non-edge.
      I saw that Ski School Reg was referring about,its in Bridge Bay.
    Reason I remember that is cause I lost my $80 Ray Bans there.
      The water was EXCELLENT at Shasta,almost boat free.Temps got
    into the 110's.
      Your right about those two little bumps as you cross the wake.
    They're not even that noticable.Well,Im finally gettin' there.
    Im thinking about purchasing a Kidder.Theyre really good for
    cutting.Ive been using a 68' Mc Connely,I think its way to wide.
    Its for people with weight 170-250.
    

RE: .21  Hey Rob, long time no see/hear/read!  You say you haven't seen a wake
since you bought your Master Craft?  That's to be expected, especially when you
spend most of your time *under water*!  :-)  :-)  :-)  'Course, with the nice
*HOT* temps you guys have had, I would be spending most of my time *in* the
water also!  FYI, I might be able to pinch another ABO trip out of a project I'm
working on.  But I told them I won't go until the weather cools down both here
and there.  No use wasting perfectly nice New England weather!  :-)

RE: .22  Glad to hear you're doing better.  It is difficult to convince yourself
that you'll hit the wake in the same way every time, especially when you have to
deal with a "good" side and a "bad" side.  But practice will get you there.

Keep on cuttin' ...

...Roger...

    I could use a little advise from those of you who have become
    accomplished slalom-ers. I'm looking to buy a slalom ski but am
    having a hard time picking the right length. I'm 6' 1"-2", and 215
    lbs. I had miserable luck with the beginner 67" combo/slalom ski.
    It was a tug of war with the boat and I always lost. I tried a 70"
    last weekend and that seemed a lot easier but I still wasn't able
    to get out of the hole. I can drop a ski and go a fair distance,
    just can't get up on one yet.
    
    I found a ski shop that has a demo'd OBrien World Team XL 72" for
    $175. The 70" I used last weekend was a nice stable ski after I
    kicked the other ski off, just couldn't 'pop-up'.
    
    To learn deep water starts should I have the biggest ski (72") ?,
    or does the size of the ski compensate for poor form coming out
    of the hole.  I've been told that a 72" may be too big (too bouyant,
    too wide a turning radius) a ski after I learn to 'pop-up' on one.
    I'm getting frustrated. 
    
    ~jeff
    
    BTW, my boat is a 19' 260hp I/O so I think I have enough ponies
    to pull me. My anticipated ability is novice-intermediate, with
    occasional spurts of greatness :^).            

The right size of the ski depends on primerely on two factors:
the weight of the skier and the speed. For a 215 lb. skier
it should be 69-70 inches if you ski at course speeds (32-36 mph)
and about 72 for slower skiing.

260 hp is plenty to pull out a few guy like you all at once, so
keep practicing. BTW, sometimes a handle with a long triangle
helps a bit. You put your ski inside the triangle which makes it 
more stable.

Good luck.

RE: .24

No problem with the boat, Jeff.  That 260hp should have plenty of beef to get
you up.  The problem sounds like form.  I'm willing to bet that your problem is
either bending too much at the waist or not keeping your weight over the ski,
with the former being my first choice.  You're used to getting up on two skis,
which distributes your weight and let's you "cheat" more when coming up.  Now
that you've graduated to a slalom ski, you have to learn the deepwater start all
over again.  Just remember to push that ski out ahead of you when you say "Hit
it!" and keep your shoulders back.  The length of the ski does make a
difference, but at your weight I'd go with the smaller ski (70") so that once
you do get up you can more rapidly demonstrate those "occasional bursts of
greatness!"

Good luck.

...Roger...

    I had a few very close 'almost up' attempts on the 70" which makes
    me think it's my form, or lack of. At this point I have both feet
    in, crunched up into a ball as tight as possible. Once the ski planes
    the rear of the ski fish tails, and I get pulled head over, followed
    by a face plant. I may be trying to stand up too soon too, just so I 
    can get my face out of the spray. I watch the pro's on ESPN and they
    make it look so d*mned easy too. 
    
    I think I'll pick up the used 70" (OBrien World Team Comp), it's
    half the price of the the new 72", and just keep practicing. For
    what I save on the used ski I could buy a lesson or two if things
    don't progress soon enough. Thanx for the tips. You're sure there's
    no magic involved, right ?
    
    ~jeff

Ah ha!  I think I know what's happening.  With a guy your size (no insult
intended), starting with your foot in the back is a real strain, both on the
boat and you.  Unless you get a good "snap" out of the hole, both feet in the
the ski causes the ski to stay in the water longer, and will also cause the
fishtailing you describe.  It also makes the tip of the ski stay lower in the
water, and if you lean forward even a little, the tip will sink.  A longer ski
will give you a little more time, but I really don't think it's worth it.  Once
you get your form right, I guarantee you can come up on a 66" ski.  Heck, I
skied on a 63" this past week, and I normally use a 68".  Came right up.

Have you tried starting with your back foot out of the binding?  I'm too lazy to
look at your previous notes, but this ski is a rear-toe ski, not a double-boot?
If you really have trouble with your foot out of the ski, you might try staying
in a squat position a little longer.  At least that will keep your weight back
and help reduce the fishtailing.

...Roger...

    Well, I picked up the used 70" slolam ski over the weekend and 
    practiced some more. I tried about 10-12 times to get up with one 
    leg draggin'. I could plane real fast but wasn't stabble, and would 
    fall. I was about ready to give up and my coaching  spotter said try 
    both legs in again. This time though, just before saying 'hit it', 
    I took a deep breath and tucked my head down low. This apparently
    was enough to get my weight over the ski, and viola' , I was up!
    
    The ski rides a little 'tip high'. It did this for 2 other skiers
    too, think I'll play with the binding placement a bit.
    
    Anyways, thanx for the tips.
                                                  
    ~jeff

    Congratulations Jeff.  You've taken the first step into a larger world!
    
    Cut a slice for yourself!!!
    
    ...Roger...

    
     Im trying to correct my form when it comes to cutting through a wake
    and getting upright to go back the opposite way. The way I perform it,
    isnt to gracefull.
    
     Would someone share some advice. I can cut through the wake, but what 
    is the proper way of going through the turning stage, becomimg upright
    and going back.
    
     Im heading back to Shasta Lake for a week and Im really anxious. I
    want my form to be correct.
    
                                 Thanks-in-advance
                                      Tom

    Tom,
      I have a hard time 'splaining this stuff, but...
    Keep your shoulders back, the ski should be on edge crossing the wake,
    and as soon as you step off the second wake, the ski should transistion
    (roll) to the other edge (preturn) and then you can carve your turn.
    (let the ski do the work for you, you shouldn't have to muscle it
    around.)  At the preturn stage, use your knees to change the attitude
    of the ski, (don't bend/break at the waist) and continue to keep your
    shoulders back.  (don't "lean" back, you want to ski on the edges of
    the ski not on the tail)  You'll know your in the proper positions when
    the ski is smoothly carving turns and you don't get slack line.
    Confused yet?  (me too!)
    
    Two places you should check out for a lesson (or even just a 15 minute
    run to get "critiqued" on your form in the Lake Shasta area are:
    
    Mike Suyderhoud Water Ski Center
    P.O. Box 492052
    Redding, Cal. 96049-2052 
    Ph (916) 222-8826          (Maybe you can ski with Bob LaPointe.  :^)
    
    or
    
    John Steiner's Water Ski Center
    2583 Califontana Way
    Redding, Cal. 96003
    Ph (916) 275-6744
    
    Good luck and let us know how you make out.
    
    Doug

              
    Tom,
    
    Doug's advice is very good, and if you've ever seen this
    guy ski, you'd want a lesson from him!
    
    As far as your question about "becoming upright after
    crossing the wakes"...  Don't worry about this too much,
    alls you have to do is stop "resisting" the boat, and
    you'll automatically straighten up again.  At this point,
    you'll want to start making your edge change and get
    ready for the turn.
                                        
    You should definately take some lessons....once you've
    learned the basics, it's mostly practice, guts and practice!
    
    Good luck!
    Jeanne
    
    

    
      Thanks for the tips. This Friday Ill be heading out to the local
    Resevior to break in the boat we'll be taking. Hope to DO IT !! Its
    been a year since Ive gone skiing.
    
     tom
    

     
     What is the correct way of choosing which foot goes in the front boot.
    
    Ive been skiing with my right because Im right handed. Is that the
    
    proper way of deciding? 
    
     How are my hands supposed to be posistioned on the ski handle? Is it
    
    one holding underhand and the other overhand?
    
    Tom
    

re               <<< Note 687.35 by WLDWST::MARTIN_T "Too Smooth" >>>

     
>     What is the correct way of choosing which foot goes in the front boot.

	I've seen these methods used;

i)	Tell someone to stand very still, go behind them and gently 
push them at about waist level - the foot they put forward to save 
themselves with is the one that should go forward.

ii)	Ski around on two skis for a while, try lifting one ski, put 
it down and try lifting the other ski, repeat this a few times - 
the foot that you were most stable/comfortable on is the one that 
should go forward.

	"SUPPOSEDLY"  left foot forward skiers have a slight advantage 
in the slalom course because the first bouy is on their "good" side; 
if they can get ahead at number one they have a better chance of 
staying ahead through the course.

>    Ive been skiing with my right because Im right handed. Is that the
    
>    proper way of deciding? 

	I'm right handed but ski left foot forward - but I've had 
right knee problems more recently than left knee problems.  My left 
leg is significantly more muscular than my right leg.
    
>     How are my hands supposed to be posistioned on the ski handle? Is it
    
>    one holding underhand and the other overhand?

	This is related to the which foot forward question;  yes, use a 
baseball (or cricket) bat grip and the hand on top should be..... 
I think its the one opposite to the forward foot, i.e. if left foot 
forward then right hand on top.  Yes, that must be it because I do it 
"wrong".

	Reg
    

    
    
     The Shasta excursion was excellent. I had a blast on that lake (375
    
    miles of shoreline). My form has gotten much better. I used a 67" 
    
    Kidder Demo and it was much better than the Connely (surfboard) I had
    
    previously used. The temps where at 115 degrees and it was nice to 
    
    spray yourself from time to time.
    
      My practice has payed off. I need to work on keeping the angle
    
    through the wake.
    

    Tom,
       
         As far as which foot forward I'm right handed/foot but ski left
    foot forward.  Just what I'm comfortable with.  Try this: remember when
    you were younger and rode a skateboard?  Which foot was forward?  It's
    basically the same in the respect that one way will feel more natural
    and stable to you.  
    
         Glad to hear your Shasta trip was good.  I recently just made a
    trip up that way to ski and camp.  We went to Trinity Lake (formally
    known as Clair Engle Lake).  If you've never been there give it a try
    some time.  Not as big as Shasta (*only 145 miles of shore line*), but
    at 2300 ft. of elevation and nothing but pristine alpine trees around
    the shore, there is not a better sight.  Also very few people and great
    water!  A little colder (water temp.) than Dom Pedro, but what isn't?
    
                                                         Mike

    
     I've heard that Trinity Lake is nice. A few months ago I went to 
    
    Whisky Town and that was a beautiful lake.
    
     Im heading off to Don Padro this weekend with a new HO Mach1 .
    
    I notice your from the same site, what area are you in?
    
     Tom
    

    Tom,
    
        I'm in the equipment support group.  I too was heading off to Pedro
    this weekend, but I'v too much to do around the house.  I went last
    weekend and demo'd a Connely Concept.  Had a blast on it.  Last
    weekend the temp. was about 100.  Should be about the same this
    weekend.  Maybe the house-work can wait??????  Especially since I'm
    only 45 minutes away from the lake!