Conference vicki::boats

Hi Bob,

Just a few thoughts...
- Check the prop and shaft to make sure you haven't picked up some fishing
  line or other material.
- Check the lower end oil, change it if it hasn't been done recently.  Look
  for metal chips or filings when you drain it.
- Push the prop forward and rotate it.  See if any part of the prop touches 
  the lower end housing, or scrapes anywhere.  This will simulate the prop's
  position while driving forward with a load, and would explain any noises
  that only occur in forward with a load on the motor.

If you've checked all of the above and don't want to tear it down yourself,
I would suggest you talk to Jerry Soucy, the service manager at Gauch Bros. 
Marina on Route 20 in Shrewsbury.  He is very sharp and a pretty good guy 
to deal with.  (I hope I have better luck recommending their service department
than with their sales department.  I recommended them to a co-worker who ended
up buying a new boat there recently.  After the bad experience she had with 
them I'm not sure I'd buy another one there, much less recommend their sales 
dept to anyone else.)

Rick

	hey bobo!!! 

	Go back to your 18hp    8^)   hee hee


	Give me a ring dude!

				Roger

    Bob, sorry I cannot offer any help with the ticking problem, but
    is the 18 HP motor for sale?
    
    TB

    
      Without hearing it (and THAT'S a big deal) I would think that
    you may have a chipped gear in the lower unit - or possibly a bad
    bearing (not nearly as likely to cause that type of noise)
    
      One thing is for SURE. If the lower unit is making a ticking noise,
    have it checked out by a competent? mechanic *before* something
    REALLY breaks and takes a bunch of other parts with it (likely).
    
      It definitely should NOT be making ANY noise.
    
    				Kenny

    Since this is already a Johnson O/B problem topic, might as well revive
    it with a new question...
    
    Is it normal for a new Johnson 115 VRO to have some idling problems
    during the breakin period?   The engine is smooth as silk at any speed
    over about 1700 RPM, but seems to occasionally miss as the speed is
    reduced.  I wouldn't say it's a rough idle - in fact it's quite smooth
    for seconds at a time but then you'll get a brief "glitch" usually
    followed by resumption of smooth idle, but if the throttle is at lowest
    idle speed when this happens there's a good chance of a stall.  This
    made for some pretty exiting docking this past windy Monday (since
    you're guaranteed to pass through idle when you hit reverse to stop).
    
    Gerry at Gauch Bros (mentioned earlier in this note) says it's normal
    during the breakin period because there's extra oil poured directly in
    the tank in addition to the injected oil and he says you get too much
    oil from time to time which causes momentary plug fouling.
    
    This all sounds logical enough, but thought I'd run it by you guys.

      While it isn't really "normal" for that engine to die at idle
    (even during break-in), it *is* more common or more likely during
    break-in.
    
      Adding the extra oil actually leans out the fuel/air mixture by
    the same amount of oil that you add. The "tightness" of the motor
    will cause the idle to be lower than normal, and there are a few
    adjustments that are probably not perfect for the boat that the
    motor is on. (for example, the deeper the motor sits in the water
    at idle - the slower and richer the idle) All of these things can 
    cause a rough idle. If your idle is excessively bad, it may be that the
    carbs are not synced very well - that will cause one or more cylinders
    to run lean at idle which causes the type of miss you seem to be
    describing.
    
      The factory (and the dealers) do not worry too much about this
    type of thing since they will deal with it during the normal 10
    hour check-up. As long as the timing is ok (and you can BET that
    the factory makes sure the timing is right when it goes out) and the 
    motor gets enough oil - it will not be harmed; so they don't worry.

    		Kenny_who's_XP100_runs_great_since_he_adjusted_it

During your breakin period your engine is receiving the normal amount of
oil through the VRO system, *plus* essentially an equal amount that has
been mixed with the first gas load. Either you or your dealer was
supposed to add the extra oil to the gas tank.

Outboards back in the '50s ran a 16:1 gas:oil mixture. That is, 16 parts
gas to one part oil. In the 60s, 70s, and into the early 80s they ran
50:1. Then along came VRO or Variable Ratio Oiling (OMC) and other direct
oil mix schemes. (AccuMix was in there for a while.) An OMC rep told me
that my 235 runs about 50:1 at full throttle, and weans out the oil to
about 200:1 at idle or troll speed. As I recall, the ratios were such
that during my breakin period I was running 25:1, but I never figured out
the ratio at idle. It did run rougher, and smoked more during breakin. 

Art

    My Johnson 88hp V4 was not set up correctly from the factory or by
the dealer (Gauch Bros, same as your's).  The idle speed was very 
slow and would fluctuate quite a bit, often causing the motor to
stall.

At the 20 hour check it was supposedly fixed, but still had the
same symptoms.  One day on the lake when the motor kept stalling
I decided to turn up the idle speed myself.  It was then that I
discovered that the idle screw was already turned in *all the way* 
just to achieve a 5-600 rpm idle.  Obviously both the factory and 
dealer missed something on the initial setup.

After another trip to Gauch Bros. and personally showing the problem 
to Jerry (the service manager), it was fixed and has been fine since.
The point is that they *do* make mistakes, and if after a little more 
break-in time you still feel there's a problem with the way it runs 
make 'em fix it.

Rick W.

    re: Johnson 115 stalling   676.5 et al.
    
    It's a new season and since I had the 10 hour service at the same time
    as winterization, I couldn't check to see if this problem was fixed
    until Spring.  The mechanic said the carbs were out of sync and adjusted 
    them accordingly.
    
    It's much better, but not perfect.  It starts much more easily and the
    idle is normally very smooth with no stalling (for periods of many
    minutes at a time), but every once in a while the engine hiccups (like
    multiple cylinders are dropping out simultaneously) and this (even
    less frequently) leads to a stall if I'm in gear at idle speed.  It can
    happen at any time but I'd say it *seems* to be more likely after 
    coming back to idle from a period of running at cruise speed (3800 rpm).
    
    I drove into the Marina that serviced it - the mechanic listened for a 
    good long while but of course it didn't do it.  He said the idle
    sounded normal.
    
    I'd really like to get this perfect if possible.  Stalling when
    maneuvering around a dock is *not* good.   It sounds to be like maybe
    it's not related to the engine but might be a fuel system problem.  But
    the filter was replaced at 10 hrs and we're many tankfulls past the
    tank that contained the extra breakin oil, so I don't really know
    where to look...
    
    Ideas??
    

    re: .-1   (Johnson 115, low hours, low speed problem)
    
    The motor actually ran very well all Summer until last weekend, and now
    its "bad moods" are back.   When in a bad mood the idle (or any slow
    speed operation below about 1600 rpm) will, at random intervals at
    least several seconds apart experience what sounds like a multiple
    cylinder miss with good chance of a stall if at lowest idle. It will go
    away for hours at a time and then come back.
    
    Other new info...  If stopped during a "bad mood" and allowed to sit
    for more than 10 minutes, it may become difficult to restart.  However,
    I recently discovered that I can get it to start instantly by opening
    the "manual prime" valve, squeezing the primer bulb (once), closing the
    valve, and then just touching the key will start it.
    
    I used to suspect this is a fuel system problem, and now I'm almost
    convinced.  But what problem would cause intermittent fuel supply
    problems at low speed only?  Filter has been replaced.  Most
    everything else is new.  I get gas from a couple different places.  Do
    these things have fuel pumps?  Anything else????
    
    Frustrated.  (It's never in a bad mood when I visit the dealer).

RE: Note 676.10 
>>(It's never in a bad mood when I visit the dealer).

But I assume YOU probably are by now!   8^)

Seriously, how is the dealer running the motor to test this?  I had
some initial starting problems with my Johnson 88, which is very
similar to your 115.  The problem was, the dealer only ever ran the
motor on the "muffs", which does not simulate real world operation
as far as tuning the carbs.  While on the muffs there is a big reduction
in exhaust backpressure.  This can cause a change of several hundred
rpms at idle speed between in-water and "muff" operation.  I'm sure there
is also a change in the air/fuel mixture which is affected by the change
in backpressure.  In my case, the boat would start with literally just 
a "click" of the key on the muffs at the dealer, but NEVER started so 
easily in the water with just me there.

Make sure your dealer is doing his troubleshooting and adjustments in
the water, not on the muffs.

Rick

I've had similar problems: new boat, low hours, etc.  Idle is inconsistent.  
It's been back to the dealer (yup, works great with muffs).  I've tweaked the
idle and often it is fine.  It is hardest to start and runs the roughest after
I've turned the engine off for a short period (bring in skier, etc.).  I cannot
just start it in the neutral position; I often have to give it a little more
gas and then bring it back down.  I've tried different brands of gas and the
fuel/water separator is new.  Could the in-line carb fuel filter be clogged?

BTW  - the OMC manual states that idle speed is ~550-600 RPM in forward gear.
Does that also mean that the idle mixture should also be adjusted with the
boat in gear?  I've been going for max smoothness/RPM  for idle while in
neutral.


/C 

    re: .-1 Hmm - sounds similar except you have a 4 cycle and I have a 2.
    But perhaps the fuel supply systems are similar.  I presume that there
    is some kind of diaphragm type fuel pump on both.
    
    What confuses me is that intuitively some sort of fuel pumping problem
    would get worse as speed increases and demand on the fuel pump goes up.
    But mine is smooth as silk over 2000 rpm, whether or not it's a "bad
    mood".
    

    Jim, a carb has two separate circuits, one for idle and one that you
    run with.  You can run perfectly fine once you open up the throttle
    but be rough as anything at idle.  I don't know how difficult it is
    to remove/clean your carbs, but it may be what you need to do.
    A very small amount of dirt can easily plug up the idle circuit.
    Wayne

    I wish I could play a tape recording of this engine here.
    
    This conversation is the same as what I have with the dealer.  I don't
    believe that I'm describing a rough idle, but everyone else thinks I am
    so we head toward the carburetor.  If it's dirt in the carb then it's
    pretty weird that it comes and goes at semi-regular intervals.  Dirt to
    my mind would cause a much more random pattern or a more constant
    degredation, i.e., a true rough  idle.  This engine idled perfectly
    throughout June and July.  And it may idle perfectly this coming
    Saturday or it may not, but if it doesn't, it's "big misses" will
    happen very consistently every 3-10 secs for a period of maybe hours. 
    Then it will all go away.
    
    Now what is possible, according to .-1, is perhaps it's maybe one
    particle of dirt or junk that's bouncing around in the low speed
    section of the carb and periodically sticking somewhere important.  
    
    Saturday I'm gonna start looking around.  I used to work on auto
    engines so how much could I screw this up? (Ha ha, I know, BIG TIME!).
    

    Jim,
    
    First thing I'd do is "read" the plugs. The plugs loading up can cause
    the symptoms you are describing. The problem will definitely be 
    intermittent at lower rpms if the plugs are loading and (usually) not
    at all noticeable at higher speeds. Clean and gap them and put them
    back and see what happens.
    
    The only curious thing you said was about priming the engine after a
    stall and an elapsed time of about 10 minutes. The fuel system could have
    bled down causing the need for a prime or you might be getting traces
    of vapor lock. Make sure the fuel system, from tank to carb, is as free
    of kinks and bends as is possible and that it is free of points for
    potential heat build up as much as possible. Check the fuel/water
    separator again to be sure it is working and free of contaminants.
    
    The idle system (as mentioned in a previous note) may be the culprit
    but usually a low float setting causes the symptoms you described. As far 
    as I know, 2cycle carbs don't have idle reservoirs/floats. Could be
    dirt (and it could be floats since most of my 2cycle experience comes
    from motorcycles and go karts).
    
    But, I'd look at the plugs first and see what they say and hope they
    don't want to hold some deep dark secret.
    
    Old 88
    

    I replaced all plugs.  No change.
    
    What is the fuel/water separator and where is it?  There is a
    replaceable fuel filter in the fuel line just inside the engine
    housing.  I'll get that next.
    

    Jim, if you have a permanent tank, the fuel filter/separator would be
    located in the fuel line at the lowest point in the line.  They look
    like spin on oil filters with a shut-off valve on each side of it. 
    Wayne

    Your mention of priming after sitting for awhile triggered a memory.
    I owned a old Evinrude and the fuel pump was driven by the pressure
    differences in the crankcase of the engine thru a small tube connecting
    the pump to the block.  The engine started acting up; it stumbled on
    acceleration but ran super at speed.  It had to be primed manually when
    cold starting but once run it would restart instantly unless it sat for
    a time, then it started hard.  It turned out that the fuel pump
    diaphram had developed a small tear at some point and gradually the
    tear enlarged to where it couldnt supply enough fuel to keep the
    motor running.  The time between 'first noticed' to failure was quite
    long and alot of time was spent looking at carbs and ignition cause it
    just didnt act like the normal fuel delivery symptoms.
    
                                       

    Whoa...   The other note about hurricane Bob getting water into the
    tank rung a bell.   The "bad moods" took a noticeable increase in
    frequency after Bob went through (and the boat was bobbing around with
    its fuel vent probably exposed to splash.
    
    Could my symptoms be caused by water in the gas?  If so, why isn't high
    speed operation affected.   
    
    re: several back.  My fuel line runs from the motor through the priming
    bulb to a fitting on the side of the motor well (the other side of
    which is inaccessible).  The next time I see it it's at the fuel tank
    which is accessible through a deck plate.  If I have I fuel/water
    separator, it would be hidden somewhere under permanent fiberglass. 
    It seems more likely that my (low end) boat doesn't have one.
    
    Do the water removing gas additives work?  It wouldn't hurt to throw
    some in to see if the problem goes away.

    
    The fuel additives do work. But i would suspect there's a limit.
    
    I would suggest you do one of the following:
    
    1. If you know someone well enough, who owns a filling station,
       ask them if they would give you a small amount of the "stuff"
       they put on the tank dipstick to check for water. If your fill
       hose goes straight down and will allow you to dip the tank,
       do it.
    
    2. If you can't do 1. try pushing a flexible rubber hose to the
       bottom of the tank, and drawing some of the bottom contents
       into a glass jar, if you have any water it will show up in the
       bottom of the jar.   I recommend a glass jar, because you cannot
       see the water (if any) by looking thru the top of a metal can.
    
    
    If either proves positive, i suggest the rubber hose approach,
    and draw until you only get clean fuel. 
    
    JIm.

    To easily check for water, disconnect the output side of the primer
    bulb abd squeeze some into a glass jar.  If there is water it will be
    on the bottom of the jar.  If there is water, you should have problems
    at high speed also, unless your pickup tube in the tank is forward.
    
    Gordon

    RE: the last couple
    
    Another place to check for water is in the bowl of the carb itself.
    Water tends to collect there, and can cause problems by occasionally
    blasting a shot of water into the motor.  Someone mentioned that 2 
    stroke outboards don't have a float bowl or reservoir, but almost 
    every outboard I've ever owned has one.  Most of 'em have a drain 
    plug which can be used to drain the bowl and check for water.

    If you suspect water in the tank, use ispropyl alcohol dry gas. It's
    about $1 to $1.50/bottle but works much better than the cheap stuff.
    It also won't harm rubber parts in the fuel system.
    
    Rick

    I tried some sort of gasoline "water-zorb" from Boat/US.  It *may*
    have improved the severity/frequency of the "bad moods" but they still
    happen.   The damn thing is so random it's really hard to tell.
    
    Also had another instance of some corollary of Murphy's law (when you
    need things to go wrong, they won't).  Pulled into the marina which
    services the engine for gas.  I've never heard the engine idle so
    perfectly...
    
    Boat is going in for the usual post-season stuff in a few weeks.  I'm
    going to ask them to check out everything in the fuel supply system
    wrt the dirt/water problems mentioned earlier.   I still think it's
    an intermittent fuel delivery problem at low or cranking speeds.

    To let you know how this saga came out (engine "bad moods")...
    
    Just picked boat up from post-season service.  They tore down the
    carbs and found *several* problems with loose jets and pinched hoses.
    $200 parts and labor luckily still under warrantee.  Unfortunately
    what with the engine being winterized afterward I have to wait to the
    Spring to see if it's really fixed.
    
    btw, I've been pretty impressed with the mechanics at Sheepscot Bay
    Boat Co, Five Islands, ME.  They couldn't get it to screw up in a test
    tank (naturally), so they launched the boat and ran it until the
    problem occured.