Conference vicki::boats

    Peculiar.
    
    1) Check your weight distribution. Move weight as far back as you can.
    
    2) Don't lift your prop "out" too far, that's why it's running faster:
    it's cavitating.
    
    3) When you lift the motor "out", make sure it's the ANGLE that's
    changing, not just moving further back at same angle.
    
    4) If all the above fails, you may have to trim the fibreglass on the
    bottom at the stern (assuming the "hook" you describe is downwards a
    the stern).
    
    5) If all the above fails, commit suppuku, or preferably, drink
    yourself to death.
    
    Ray

    Thanks Ray, I'll try some of that advise this weekend, but I'm wary
    that I may have to take up your last suggestion.

    Try running the motor in a tank with a loose mount and observe if you
    feel the motor taking off vertically under throttle.  That would at
    least eliminate some weird prop or shaft pitch problem or some water
    pump impleller problem that's producing a downward water jet.
    

    
    
    It sounds like the "hook" is what is getting you into trouble. It's
    hard to tell hoow bad it is from text- I would suggest getting a
    straight edge or use a lien along the keel and along the chines- 
    an inch or two will really cause problems. I had an old 17' thompson
    that developed a hook in the bottom after sitting on the trailer over
    the winter- I ended up getting rid of the boat beacuse of a similar
    problem .
    
     Also- make sure the motor tilt is intact- i have seen people lose the 
    tilt pin(the pin that acts as a stop and keeps the motor from tilting
    too far forward) and not bother to replace it. 
    
     I don't have any idea of your boating expereince, but don't confuse
    the bow dropping as the baot gets up on plane with "plowing". If the
    weight distribution is correct, tilit is correct and hull is straight,
    the boat should stay on top of the water and be basically level.
    
     my suggestions:
    
    1. make sure the tilt mechanism is all there4 and adusted with the
    motor tilted slightly out
    
    2. Make sure you have even weight distribution- fules tanks/battery in
    the stern, operator up forward- try out with one person (operator)
    on board
     
    3. if the above fail to giver satisfactory performance- look for a hill
    defect- note that on some of these older F/G boats, they use a lot of
    wood in the hull under the decks- wooden stringers and ribs were
    frequently used to give rigidity. If they start to rot away- your hull
    will be "springy" and change shape(deform with a pronounced hook) when
    loaded up and in the water.  I had a freind with a 16' F/G runabout
    that this happened to-he ended up putting in new stringers, ribs and
    deck- not as bad a job as it sounds- took us a weekend.
    
     
      
                     

re                       <<< Note 675.0 by SPCTRM::BRENNAN >>>
>                           -< Boat nosedive - help >-

	Without seeing it, either on the trailer or performing it's  
"stunt"  its difficult to know where to start - other than the boat is 
old,  - OLD !     It sounds like the motor may be tucking in and lifting 
the tail (stern, sorry 'bout that), the failed attempts to fix this
could be (could be) due to a weak (or sagged out) transom...... 
truely difficult to guess without a looksee - where is it ?

	Reg

    
    
    One item I forgot in the previous note- could be someone put a long
    shaft motor on a boat designed for a short shaft- this will get your
    prop 5"" lower than the boat was designed for. The cavitatiuon plate on
    the motor should be flush with the bottom of the hull- if it is way too 
    low- you need to change to a short shaft. On these older OMC's they put
    a 5" extension between the lower unit and the leg- 
    
    To change long shaft to short shaft:
    
    *remove lower unit
    *remove extension
    *remove shift shaft extension
    *replace drive shaft
    *replace water tube (or cut 5" off!)
    *replace lng bolt that connects rear of lower unit to leg(or cut 5" off
    and re-thread
    
    The parts should be available used at a reasonable price from any
    dealer
    
    Dick
     

My vote is for the nosedive being caused by the hook in the hull.  If
the stringers are rotted or broken, that slight hook that you see on
the trailer may become *severe* with the hundreds of pounds of force 
put on it while the boat is underway.  Then the rear of the hull becomes
a giant trim-tab, forcing the bow down.

I would check the condition of the stringers at this point.  Does the 
boat have a raised floor?  If so you may have to cut a few small "observation"
holes at strategic points to look for any signs of damage or rot.  If
everything appears to be ok, the next test is to put the boat in the water
and use the observation holes to look for deflection in the hull while 
the boat is plowing.  Have someone else drive the boat while you observe,
or put some modeling clay between the hull and floor.  Any deflection in 
the hull will squash the clay.

If the hull and stringers are sound, the observation holes will be easy
enough to patch up.  If you find rot or damage, just consider these holes 
to be the first step in removing the floor for further repairs.  8^(

Good luck!

Rick W.

P.S.  I know where there's an older model ~15 foot Glastron fiberglass hull
      for $225.  It has no motor or trailer, is set up for your OMC 40, and 
      looks to be in pretty solid shape.  Swapping your motor and other 
      hardware to another hull may be easier and cheaper than fixing the
      one you've got.

	I would have to side with the hooked hull theory. I had an old (1960)
	DUO which also had a hooked hull. It sounds like I had a more serious
	hook than what you described. (I had a 60 hp evinrude on it) I would
	begin to plow at about 22 mph. 

	Is the hook on the port or starboard side? Mine was on the starboard 
	side toward the stern. When I turned right at a speed of about 20, 
	the engine would cav (as a result of the hook)  Does your boat cav
	on a turn?  This would indicate the hook is probably your problem. 

	Repositioning the engine on the transom will NOT fix or compensate 
	for a hooked hull. 

	I had a raised floor and a way I got around it was to allow water on 
	board as a balast to keep the bow up and the boat realtively planed.
	(weight distribution as mentioned in several replies) I bought the boat
	to teach my son and wife how to pilot and when I felt they could handle
	a new boat, (without screwing it up 8^) ) I bought one.

>Rick W.

>P.S.  I know where there's an older model ~15 foot Glastron fiberglass hull
>      for $225.  It has no motor or trailer, is set up for your OMC 40, and 
>      looks to be in pretty solid shape.  Swapping your motor and other 
>      hardware to another hull may be easier and cheaper than fixing the
>      one you've got.

	This is what I would do.... Check it out... I looked into fixing 
	my old boat but found out (very quickly) that it was'nt worth the 
	effort.

    Thanks for all the advise already provided.
    
    .3, Jim - I'll try the tank test.
    .5, Reg - Hook may be the problem, it's so slight that I can't imagine
              it affecting the stability, but as suggested by a reply,
              it may be increasing under pressure. The boat is on 
              RT122 in Millbury, right off the Mass Pike exit. Beside
              the Red Shanty on right after Panzera & Sons Furniture.
    .7 Rick W. - The floor does not look bad, but I have not checked out
                 the stringers and definately do not want to invest
                 my time in a rebuild, Uhg. Where is that Glastron?
    .8 Mr.Karr (?) - I think I'll look into the Glastron. Please disregard
                this plane out problem if you see me advertising a boat
                for sale! (Naw, I wouldn't try a fast one like that.)
    .4 & .6, Mr. (?) Cadmus, thanks for your input.
                                                                     
    
    Again, thanks for everyone's input, this is a very helpful file.
    I'll post the results of all tests after this weekend.

I don't have any advise for the originator, but I do have a question regarding
the problem. The orginator said that new fiberglass and paint was applied to the
hull. The question is, if the hull was distorting enought to cause the boat dive
when power is applied, wouldn't this result in stress cracks in the new material
that could be observed? If so such cracking might help diagnose the problem.

john

    Problem Solved!
    
    Solution: I placed a wooden 2x4 on the back of the boat, outside
    the stern, inside the external motor mount bracket. This moved the
    prop(&shaft) out behind the boat far enough to allow it to "drive"
    the back of the boat down while pulling the bow up enough for the
    proper plane out degree.
    
    The problem was that the stern of the boat was angled "in" at the
    bottom (orginal design). When an engine was placed on the boat without
    the "spacer" the prop was actually angled in and up, driving the bow down
    while underway. 
    
    The bow of the vessle now comes up during acceleration and then
    planes out neatly at 1/2 to full throttle. It was quite windy at
    times Sunday and the boat handled satisfactorily. I'm happy.
    
    Thanks to everyone who had an idea or thought to share on the subject.
    Fortunately the solution was the cheapest and easiest option.
    
    Thanks Again Everyone!
    
    Tom
    
    

    
    
    TOM: did you check the motor tilt adjustment mecanism to make sure that
    the motor was tilted all the way - that motor has an adjustable tilt
    so that you shoul d be able to do what you accomplished with the 2x4
    with the mechanism on the motor- O have seen those coorode and get
    removed- perhaps that is the real problem
    
    Dick

   >   Solution: I placed a wooden 2x4 on the back of the boat, outside
   > the stern, inside the external motor mount bracket. This moved the
   > prop(&shaft) out behind the boat far enough to allow it to "drive"
   
    HUH? Do you mean that you placed a 2X4 between the motor bracket
    and the transom? Near the bottom to cause the motor to tilt out
    when the clamps are tightened? This sounds very risky to me (uneven
    pressure on the transom, chance of losing the motor or breaking
    the transom)
    
    > the back of the boat down while pulling the bow up enough for the
    > proper plane out degree.
    
    > The problem was that the stern of the boat was angled "in" at the
    > bottom (orginal design). 
    
    This is how ALL outboard boats are made!! You boat/motor combo should
    work just fine with the transom like that!
    
    > When an engine was placed on the boat without
    > the "spacer" the prop was actually angled in and up, driving the bow down
    > while underway. 
    
    If the motor is trimmed all the way in as you say it was - this
    SHOULD happen! If you look at the motor brackets on the outside
    of the transom, you'll see a row of 5 holes along the bottom on
    each side. There *should* be a pin that goes through a pair of these
    holes (the same hole on each side) Is this pin missing? If it is
    you HAVE to get one since the motor tilt lock uses this pin to lock
    it in the down position. If it *is* there, you *should* be able to
    move it to a higher position to get the results you want without
    using a 2X4.
    
       It may be that your hook is causing a bow-down attitude that
    the normal motor trim is not able to compensate for. But in any
    case, using the 2X4 permanently sounds somewhat dangerous.
    
    				Kenny

    .12 Dick
    .13 Kenny
    
    The adjustable pin (spring loaded bar on this Evinrude) is intact
    and working, the tilt lock is working also, I have to hold/press the latch
    down if I want to pull the motor up out of the water. I am confident
    the motor bracket and all it's hardware are in factory designed
    working order.
    
    Yes Kenny, I did place the 2x4 between the motor bracket and the
    transom, this is the ONLY way the boat would perform satisfactorily.
    
    The transom on the boat is about 3/4" thick at best. The motor bracket
    would easily fit on 2" transom. That leaves you with about
    1 1/4" play. If the motor is placed on the transom without any
    "spacer", the motor bracket naturally rides flush along the
    exterior side of the transom, leaving a good inch between transom
    and the interior side of the motor bracket. So you tighten the motor
    mount, take it for a ride, try every setting on the adjustable pins
    and it nose dives. When placed on the boat in this manner the prop
    is at the same angle as the flush motor mount, accelerate and the
    force tends to push the nose down more than the boat forward.
    
    The only way (read cheapest and easiest) I've found to achieve a
    satisfactory ride is to move the prop and shaft out away from the 
    transom to achieve an angle that will allow the motor to push the boat 
    forward rather than push the bow of the boat down.
                                           
    I agree Kenny that this could be dangerous. Before attempting the
    first shake down cruise with the "spacer" 2x4 in place, I grabbed
    the motor and attempted to lift, shake and wiggle it off the transom,
    the back of the boat came up with the motor indicating to me that it
    was not going to fall or jump off during normal operation.
                                                                       
    Let's remember this boat is a 1959 Sears and Robuck (read junk)
    and the motor is a behemoth of a 1963 40 HP Evinrude ($300 for the
    entire package with trailer). I will not be attempting to tow any
    skiers and will never have more than 1 other person in the boat with
    me, so the stress on the transom will be moderate to light at best.
    
    Yes, this looks like and is a Mickey Mouse solution but it's the
    only solution I have run across to date. I am probably going to bolt the
    "spacer" 2x4  to the transom to provide a secure mount if I cannot
    find another solution.
                                                          
    Thanks for the input and concern,
    
    Tom