Conference vicki::boats

re                       <<< Note 641.0 by CHFS32::RMANDRY >>>
>                         -< HELP WITH AN OLD GLASTRON >-
    
>    1.IS THIS BOAT WORTH BUYING FOR A LESSER PRICE AND HAVE IT FIX?

	Only you can decide.....how low the current owner will go 
	might your decision.

>    2.IF IT IS. WHERE CAN I FIND THE PARTS?

	The usual reply to outdrive parts for New England seems to be 
	Doug Russell Worcs/Shrewsbury line - where are you located ?
	There are any number of sources for chevvy blocks.
	
>    3.CAN I DO THE JOB MYSELF?(I HAVE EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE IN CHEVY
>    ENGINES).

	An OK 350 chevvy block is cheap, anywhere from ~$100 to ~400
	Remember that getting it into a boat is harder than with a 
	car, you'll probably need a higher lift than most back-yard
	engine cranes have and there's typically  NO SPACE  under the
	engine once its in the boat. 

>    4.CAN THE ENGINE BLOCK BE WELDED IN SOME WAY?

	Probably not.  Repaired ?  There are ways, it depends how bad
	it is. 

>    5.IF NOT CAN I USED A REGULAR CHEVY 305 AUTO BLOCK IN PLACE?

	Yes, but if its going into salt water make sure to get 
stainless steel head gaskets.  Also use explosion proofed alternator,
starter, distributor, etc.  Errr, make sure the rotation is regular
"automotive direction"  before you go too far (-:, (-: 

>    PS. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANOTHER BOAT THAT I LIKE THIS MUCH.

	Be careful here;  if you've  REALLY FALLEN IN LUST WITH  this
boat you might be a little blind to how big of a problem you're buying
into (-:, (-: 

	Reg

    **********If you replace, use ONLY an industrial/marine block********
    They are built for the wild load shifts and steady running speeds not
    demanded on dry land. What is cracked? If it's the manifolds, it can
    be welded. Anyplace where oil and water can't mix should be able to be
    welded too.

    First off there's nothing that can't be fixed, it depends on
    how much money needs to be spent. Be careful that you don't
    wind up relieving the "current owner of their problem"(s).
    at your expense. Before you go any further whats the book value
    of this rig. Start there and work backwards, i.e.
    
    Book Value - repairs= material and labor= what you will pay.
    
    If the owner(s) diagree walk away. 
    
    jim.

    Here's a data point for us.  the BUC book lists this one
    for $6100-7000, no trailer. Getting interesting....
    
    Jim.

    
    Jim,
    
    	Are you sure you're looking at the right line in the BUC book?
    A 1979 Glastron 19 footer is supposed to be worth 6-7K? Doesn't
    sound right...
    
    Rick
    

    I called "our one stop shopping" Boating Center, Boat U.S
    
    He asked me several times about length, and which motor.
    
    I had a hard time swallowing this myself, but i'm not familiar
    
    with the line of boats. I just called again, got the same $$$.
    
    however i got a better explanation. Smaller boats are not normally
    sold thru dealers, or yatchet brokers, which is the main source
    for the Buc Book..  SOOOOOOOOOO the computer guestimates the
    current value based on age, inflation etc. your milage may vary.
    
    So we're back to square 1. Just trying to figure out what 
    approach to take to answer the question. Maybe 3.4K would not
    be a bad price for the rig if it did not have these problems.
    
    Personally i think by the time your done, you'll have to spend
    about 1/2 the current asking price + labor to make it a go.
    
    I'd walk, unless they bring it way down. The cracked block
    bothers me, what else is bad inside, sounds like neglect,
    and they beat on it. or it may have overheated...
    
    
    Jim

I have a question for you - you said that your mechanic found the
cracked block.  Was that price of $3400 based on an intact engine
block, or did the owner realize that it's cracked?

If the price was set with the assumption of an intact engine block
then the cost of repairs should be deducted from the price of the
boat.  If the owner was aware of the cracked block and set the price
accordingly, then you probably won't get him to budge too much.

As far as welding and rebuilding the block, I wouldn't do it if it 
were *my* boat.  If the sides of the block were pushed out, some 
of that force probably also pushed *in*.  This could distort the
cylinder walls, deck alignment, etc.  Then the heat caused by 
welding the block won't do any good either...

Someone mentioned making sure you use an industrial engine.  In the 
Chevy 4.3 and 305 I don't think there's any such animal.  The lower
horsepower motors don't come with 4 bolt mains and all the other good
stuff.  You mentioned that you're experienced at rebuilding small
block Chebbies, you could start with a rebuildable motor and go that
route.  With the season fast approaching, I think I'd check into
one of those new Mr. Goodwrench replacement motors that cost around
$1100.  Install some brass freeze plugs, swap the flywheel, starter,
carb and all the other marine hardware and you're in business.

Now for the lower end.  You said your mechanic recommended rebuilding
because it's been sitting for 2 years.  He may have seen something
wrong that would indicate a rebuild is necessary, but sitting for 2 
years should not cause any problems by itself.  But if a rebuild 
really is necessary make sure you use that in your bargaining position.
Anyone who's seen Doug Russell's ads knows that lower end problems can
end up costing more than a new engine. 

The bottom line (price of the boat + repairs + your time) is what you 
need to look at.  The boat definitely needs an engine, the lower end 
is an unknown and can potentially be big $$$, and then you'll need to 
allow several hundred extra dollars for cosmetics and other things 
you'll no doubt want to change to suit your tastes.  Take the time to 
figure out a "worst case repair cost", and then look around to see what 
else is available for that price.  You're the only one who can decide 
whether it's worth it to you.

Rots'a Ruck!

Rick W.

    
    
     I would assume for the puposes of negotiaition, that the engine &
    outdrive are shot-Use that for a bargaining position.
    
     I have not had good experienes with Doug Russel-I refuse to do
    business with them. After a $1600 rebuild on the upper gearbox on my
    OMC I/O- the nut holding the gear on the main drive shaft cam off-
    result was a new gearbox . althiugh there was only about 20 hrs on the 
    gearbox,it was over 30 days since repair. I didn't even get symapthy.
    
    The chevy 305 could be replaced with a 350 4 bolt main(worst
    case)-the truck engines from chevy and gmc are usually 4 bolt mains
    
    ussually under freezing, the water jaclet pushes out since you have
    FWC,
    a simple braze should be able to care of that- it'ds only the wtaer
    jacket. I have also seen marine-tex epoxy used to rapir small crakds in
    blocks and manifolds and last for years, especcially if you have FWC.
    
     Get a second opinion on the outdrive- I get nervous when I hear that a
    rebuild is required because it's been sitting for two years.
       The heat exchanger can be replaced or repaired-if it's a plate
    tyope- you may want to heave it and get a SENDORE tube and shell heat
    exchanger- much more rugged.
    
    
    Loats are �cheap right now- you might want to either look for a better
    deal or I would tend to offer 1500-2k. I bought a 22' North american
    with a brand new engine, a good outdrive, depth finder. radio etc 
    for 4k, so I think the price asked is high. No way I would pay what he
    is asking- especially in today's market
    
    
    
    Dick
    
    
    
    

    As has been pointed out,only you can make the final decisison as
    to how badly you want this particular boat.But given the number
    of boats on the market now and the prices that are attatched to
    them,I doubt I would consider the craft in question.With the prob-
    lems you already know about,Heaven knows what else you could run 
    into for repairs.An outdrive rebuild can be expensive("excuse me
    sir,but when we took the old unit apart we found.......").And at
    this time of year with everybody taking boats out of storage the
    marinas and repair shops are busy.How soon do you want to launch
    this year?
      This is just opinion of course,you have to decide.But you might
    want to look around some more and think about it.
    
    Keith
    

    
    THANKS TO ALL OF YOU THAT HELP ME DECIDE "TO BUY OR NOT TO BUY"
    BUT THE DECISION HAS BEEN MADE.
    I WOULD NOT PURCHASE THIS BOAT NOT THIS YEAR OR EVER, I FOUND A
    COUPLE OF OTHER THINGS WRONG WITH IT AND IT WILL NOT BE WORTH IT
    SO AGAIN THANKS TO ALL OF YOU.
    
  

    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 932.0                1975 - 175 Merc any comments?               No replies
NZOMIS::FINLAY "Only at work if its raining...."     26 lines  24-NOV-1991 10:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    As you may have seen from a previous note I am looking for a reasonably
    priced ski rig, for general family use and to teach my kids to ski
    with. The requirements are to be reliable, easy to handle in/out the
    water by two adults and the engine must be able to idle for a while and
    then pull cleanly when needed. I will be using it in a sheltered salt
    water inlet, and launching it from a steep hard sandy slope.
    
    I have been offered a 16ft Glastron (closed bow) with trailer and a
    175hp V6 merc. The whole unit was new in 1975. I am assured that the
    Merc is reliable, and the cost is $8500 NZ dollars, about 3500 UK
    pounds or approx $7000 US dollars.
    
    The engine is much larger than I have had before, I used a 15ft Glaston
    and 85 Oil injected Suzuki, which I owned from new, or a 12 ft. boat
    with a series of old engines ranging from 40 to 60. (all the old engines
    were unreliable)
    
    I am worried by the combination, is the engine too big for the boat,
    will I find it too fast, and what should I look for in an engine of
    this age to see if it is in reasonable condition. (remember I have been 
    "caught" with old hard worked engines before). Is the Merc 175
    thirsty, and did it have any known faults? 
    
    Any other suggestions?.
    
    Many thanks - Richard

RE: Note 641.11   

>> I have been offered a 16ft Glastron (closed bow) with trailer and a
>> 175hp V6 merc. The whole unit was new in 1975. 

I ass-u-me this must be an I/O, I don't think Merc made a big V6 outboard
back in '75.  This also wouldn't be the current 175hp Mercruiser V6 I/O,
which is based on the 4.3 liter Chevy, and has only been around for maybe
6-7 years.  Based on that, my GUESS is that this thing probably has an
old Buick V6 in it.  Is there any chance this boat has been re-powered at
some point with a later motor?

>> I am assured that the Merc is reliable,

If it's still running well after 16 years that's probably a safe bet.

>> the cost is $8500 NZ dollars, about 3500 UK pounds or approx $7000 US 
>> dollars.
   
That would be a bit steep here in the states, but average prices for American
boats are probably different in New Zealand.

>> I am worried by the combination, is the engine too big for the boat,
>> will I find it too fast,

That's doubtful, back in '75 engines were rated at "gross hp", today they're
rated in "net" or propshaft hp.  A '75 vintage 175 is probably about the same 
as today's 130 or 140, especially taking into account the hp losses from 
normal wear.  I would be more concerned about excess weight than excess hp.  
A V6-I/O combination is a lot of weight in the stern of a 16' boat.  It may
tend to dig a hole in the water while pulling up a skier.  A test ride will
tell for sure.

>> what should I look for in an engine of this age to see if it is in 
>> reasonable condition. 

All the usual stuff - compression, oil burning, corrosion.  If this is the 
old Buick, parts availability may be a problem, especially in New Zealand.

>> Is the Merc 175 thirsty, and did it have any known faults? 
    
I would guess it'll probably swill it's share of fuel.  And it's not really 
a "fault", but the old Buick V6 was known as an odd-firing engine, the 6 
cylinders were not spaced at equal 60 degree crankshaft intervals.  This was
corrected on later motors by offset grinding the crank journals. An odd-fire
motor does not run quite as smoothly as the even-fire.

Rick

    
    
    As Rick W. said 7000 US dollars is steep for a 1975 Glastron, even if
    the boat is in mint condition here in the US.
    
    Can the difference in the boat market be that large between NZ and US?
    A 1975 Glastron w/ 175hp I/O here ceratinly wouldn't be worth more than
    $3000.
    
    As for the power... Assuming this boat is an I/O.... One thing you
    didn't appear to think about (I say this because you mentioned too much
    HP) is that an I/O requires much more HP to act like an Outboard on
    the same size boat. For instance, a 90 HP outboard will provide good
    all-around power for a 16 foot boat, but a 120 hp I/O may seem too 
    slow to pull skiers out of the hole when installed in the same boat.
    It's just the added weight of the I/O and probably other factors, but
    I'll let the guys that acutally own tilt and trim expound on that
    aspect.
    
    Rick (straight Inboard owner)
    
    

Hi Richard,

My set-up is a 16.5 Baja with 115 Johnson Outboard.  I wouldn't
want a larger size engine on this boat, top speed was 52MPH,
but I lost a few after intalling the stabilizer. (whale tail)
I've heard the 150 Merc's eat up substantially more gasoline
that what i'm used to.

This boat is extremely reliable, I've had no problems
whatsoever with the Johnson in my two years of ownership.
I've been able to launch and load the boat by myself, I've
found that if you pull the boat onto the trailer snugly,
it's just a matter of winching it in.  

I'm not a Mercury fan, due to the fact my brand-new
Mercury gave me fits after two years...no-one could
trouble-shoot it, and I'm not mechanically inclined.

This boat is an open-bow rider, so if you're pulling up
a heavy skier, putting a person up front will aid in getting
the skier out of the water.  I've had three adults in the
boat and pulled up a skier no problem.  If you're going
to be teaching kids to ski, an engine of this size is
more than adequate. 

My boat is a 1985 all-around and I paid $6K two years
ago.  So, the price they're asking for this Glastron
seems pretty steep.  Shop around.

Jeanne
  

    Many thanks for your help. The V6 175 Merc is an outboard it was later
    called the "Black Max" and is I think a Blue Band version. It certainly
    is not oil injected. My concern is that it may go like a "scalded cat"
    and therefore in inexperienced hands be dangerous (not mine).
    
    As for the cost, yes I think it is high, but Glastrons are rare here in
    N.Z. When I sold my 5 year old Glastron and Suzuki 85 I only got 2800
    pounds UK for it (about 5500 US dollars) which was less than half of
    what it had cost me new. It was a major mistake as I should have
    brought it with me.
    
    I will be going for a run on Saturday, I will look carefully at
    starting and idling the engine, but we may not be out long enough to
    look at the fuel consumption.
    
    Any more info gratefully received, thanks - Richard
     

    Are you sure then that it's a "V6"?  That's what threw me, I didn't
    know that Merc made V6 outboards that far back.  If the motor is tall 
    and narrow then it's an inline 6. The inline 6 was made up until 1988.
    
    And you're right, any 175 hp 6 cylinder Merc outboard will make a 16' 
    Glastron go like the proverbial ape who's been personally violated.
    8^)   A friend of mine has a 1988 Merc 115 inline 6 on a 17' Wahoo.  
    With a jacking plate and 5 blade stainless prop it does 63 mph.(!)
    
    Rick

    re .15
    
    Be careful not to over engine that 16' Glastron. If indeed we are
    talking about a 175 HP Black Max...then that is either right at, or
    just over the limit of HP for that particular boat. A 175 HP outboard
    on a 16' Glastron should give you a top end in the 65-70 MPH range!
    This depends on just what shape that Merc is still in. 
    
    I believe that boat is rated for a HP max of 150-155.

								-mike-

    Perhaps it's been too long since I've been around outboards, but I
    don't remember the high output outboards being very good it idling.
    Where it's not variable rate oil injection you'll have a hard time
    keeping the plugs from fouling at an idle while you wait for a skier to
    get ready. It will be useless for trolling.
    
    ~jeff

    More information
    
    As yet I still have not seen the Glastron and the 175 Merc, I have
    phoned a few times but the boat is supposidly away having a cover made
    for it?? Again I asked about the outboard, he is not sure of the year
    could be '78 '79. (he doesn't seem too sure about anything - maybe he
    hasn't had time to "pinch" the boat off someones drive yet!!)
    
    One of the car dealers not far form here has a Glastron with an I/O 175
    Merc on it. It has a Chevy 350 engine that was rebuilt last year (he
    has the receipts) although it was done by his own car mechanics and not
    a boat dealer. Its a good 17-18 ft in length and on a good 4 wheel
    trailer. It looks a bit big for me although there is plenty of room in
    it for skiis, walking round etc.
    
    Would I find the I/O unit more reliable than the outboard, more
    economical, noisier, any suggestions??. Would you buy a boat form a car
    salesman even if it was his own?? He seems very laid back about it, sort
    of well there it is if you want it I'll sell it. He wants $10,000 N.Z
    dollars for it, but is willing to trade my wifes' car and sell me a
    smaller/cheaper one.
    
    cheers Richard