Conference vicki::boats

    
    	The muckiemac is clear.... of ice anyways,  at least it was on
    saturday - in Lowell, near the bridge that we've skied under a few
    times, not far from Rick's place.  Though I didn't see any ski boats
    there on saturday.
    
    	R	(r)eady
    

    Beat all of ya to it! We went  out last Thursday up in the Piscataqua in
    Maine for some Scallop Diving. Sure was COLD! Next time I'll get a dry
    suit not a wet suit.
    
    Acctually, once I got past the initial shock of the 40 deg water it was
    not too bad. We only stayed out for about 4 hours as the air started
    getting  chilly.
    
    How do you get to that lake in Littleton?
    
                                      Walt
    

    
    Directions to Lake Mattawanakee are in note 281.29.
    
    Rainbow Chaser may be a teensy bit big for this lake.
    Better bring your dingy along.  I bet'cha could really
    freak out the waterfront home owners though...
    
    Rick

    
      We plan to pick up the new Larson March 31 or April 1. I'd really
    like one week with it to take it apart and put it back together
    MY WAY, (I don't really take it THAT much apart) before I start
    using it. Sooooo,,,, April 7-8 or 14-15 should be just fine. And
    since Lake Mattawanakee is only about 8-10 miles from my house,
    it should be a piece of cake.
    
    
    					Kenny
    

    
    	I guess I was asleep at the wheel when I read your message
    'cause I was thinking Monomanac, ah well it's not the first time
    I've been confused! Mattawanakee is fine with me as long as the
    algae is low and the water is high....
    
    Rick
    

    
    Hi Rick,
    My suggestion for the spring kickoff was Mattawanakee in
    Littleton, mainly because it is centrally located for most
    of the people who would be likely to show up.  If anyone
    has suggestions for other places that would have launch
    and parking facilities for several vehicles then I'm all
    ears.  Last year we started off at Lake Monomonac and I'd 
    be up for that again, but it's is a bit of a hike for some
    people.  The advantage there is that either NH or MA 
    registrations are acceptable since it is in both states.
    
    I don't think algae in April will be much of a problem no
    matter where we go, especially since *I* would have no 
    intention of going in the water!  And with about 2 feet of
    snow in my yard right now, the water level in April shouldn't
    be much of a problem either.
    
    Rick W.  (60 days and counting)

    Hold that thought on Lake Monomanac...
    That isn't too far out of reach for an afternoon Gumball is it?
    I've always wanted to go there.
    Besides, a guy we met at Barefoot Int'l (Dave Sarkela) lives on the
    lake. If I show up with a fistful of reprints of him doing One-foot
    toe-ups, backwards deeps, etc, etc... That would be just the tickets
    for us to be able to use his shore front.  :^)
    (Has nothing to do with the fact there's also a Malibu dealer on the
    lake)    ;^)
    
    Doug

	Where can we launch ?   At Valley's ?  I think they want $$$s,
well, maybe only $5  -  dunno if they'll let me in there after all the haggling
and no buying I did there over the last year or so.  I can just see me showing
up and having them ask if I'm ready to buy yet  -  then seeing the FBB  (-:, (-:

	R

    Hey Rick W. or Kenny C.
    
    
    I waiting for my invitation! Seeing I'm am boatless these days! :^(
    I am trying to talk the wife into another boat, but it seems it's going
    to be his and hers kiyaks <sp?>
    
    
    
                                                Jeff

    
    Hey Jeff,
    Of course you're welcome to join us!  We'll find a seat for you
    on the boat.  As they day gets closer we'll get a boat and head
    count and may be able to accomodate a couple others who can't BYOB
    (Bring Your Own Boat). 
    
    His and her's kayaks Jeff?  Naah, if it ain't got a motor you'll
    never be happy with it!  Besides, kayaks aren't cheap!  Just tell 
    Judy that you want another 34 footer, but since she wants no boat,
    you'll meet her half way and buy a 17 foot boat.  (Let me know if 
    this method works, I'll try it next year for the upgrade to a 20'
    model!) 
    
    Rick

    
    Sure Jeff, nooo problem, I'm sure we can find room for you.. and
    your wife... and Taylor.... and gotta have a baby seat.... and ah
    what the heck bring the dog too. (forget the cats - they probably
    don't want to go anyway) Now let's see... that's....Hmmm..... well,
    I sure we can find room for you!!
    
    			We don't have a 34' CI!!!!

      Just remember, the first weekend in April is 'L' day.
    
    					Kenny

    	OH.... err gee... Should I drive up to Province Lake
    and retrieve my raft for this occasion? After all... at least
    one Nautique needs to tow wackos....err skiers!

    Rick

    Plenty of room!

	re .12	 Yeah, I guess he's back   (-:

     
    	First launch? Well, it won't be the first for some of us...
    
    	Hey Rick W. Do you really think Kenny is not going to launch
    his new boat until the 7th if he picks it up Sunday? Well, that
    may depend upon what time he picks it up Sunday....
    
    	Are we still shooting for the 7th on Wattawanakee? I should
    have no problem getting my boat back together by then other than
    the large $$$ and first born male child I'll have to leave at H&H.. :-)
    Well, Rickie should like Salem..... :-)
    
    Rick

RE: Note 602.14 
>>  Hey Rick W. Do you really think Kenny is not going to launch
>>  his new boat until the 7th if he picks it up Sunday? Well, that
>>  may depend upon what time he picks it up Sunday....

Heck no, he picks it up this *Friday*, and we plan to launch on
Saturday, a week earlier than planned.  That's if the weather
guesser's are wrong - the latest guess I heard was for cold, 
clouds, and showers both days this weekend.  'Course, they also
guessed snow for this past Sunday and it was beautiful.

>>  	Are we still shooting for the 7th on Wattawanakee? 

Sure, but it won't be the first launch for me either.  Kenny and 
I took my boat out on Lake Mattawanakee last Saturday, the 24th.
Beat my previous record by almost 3 weeks.  Now I know why I 
usually wait til April, the weather was cold and cloudy, we almost 
froze our little patooties off.  But at least we had the lake 
all to ourselves!   8*)

Bring back that 80 degree weather from a couple weeks ago!

Rick W.

    O.K. here's a questions from a greenhorn, all you old salts can laugh
    it up...
    
    This is the first year I have a "winterized" boat, and I figure it
    would be a mortal sin to flush my winterized system in the lake (after
    all, I eat the fish in that lake!). My engine is a Ford 351 (Cobra
    modified), which I figure probably has about 4 gals of antifreeze?
    
    My question is, what should I do about draining the outdrive/engine
    before launching? I really don't want to drain it into the alley either
    (after all, if the chemicals aren't good for the lake I shouldn't be
    dumping them on the ground either, right?)
    
    My dealer told me in the fall when they winterized it that they had
    enough bother with frozen engines in the spring from people who did not
    winterize, so they don't want boats in the shop for spring maint. 
    Should I take it by and have them drain it anyway?  Any suggestions?

re            <<< Note 602.16 by CSC32::METZLER "Hey! No Problem..." >>>

	Well, the obvious answer is that you should do the right thing 
- for the environment and for yourself;  4 gallons of anti-freeze is 
probably worth saving, etc.

	The tough question is HOW to get it out - its a modified 351
Ford, so you probably have a drain plug at the left rear of the block 
and another one at the right front (viewed from the back of the boat
facing for'ard, etc.)   There is probably another one for the sea
water pump, there may be even more, look for little brass plugs
with 9/16 inch heads, they will typically be on the underside at the
low point of the castings that are meant to be drained to protect them
from frost - consult your manual, etc. 
I'd try using a funnel with several feet of plastic tube, say ~3/8
inch i/d.  Get the funnel under the drain plug and route the tube out 
through the boat's drain to a "helper" with at least a 2 gallon 
container/s.  (I'm assuming you're doing this in the yard, since you
said something about not wanting to dump it on the ground in the alley
- if the boat is already in the water you'll probably have to pump.) 
The 2 block drains and seawater pump drain should get most of it, but 
some will probably stay in the hose between the seawater pump and the 
oil cooler (I assume you have one...) this will be the most difficult 
to retrieve, somehow undo the lowest end and try to pour it out of the 
hose.  Once you've done these points it SHOULD (nearly) all be out, 
but there's still a chance of a bit hanging around in the exhaust 
manifolds - though they're so high that it should have run down by 
now.  The plugs for these are typically at the back, you'll need a 
skinny 1/2 inch socket drive to get 'em out - if they havn't been 
replaced with brass plugs that have square bosses on 'em, etc.
You may need to disconnect the top hose at the thermostat housing to 
break vacuum when you take out the first block drain - if the anti 
freeze just dribbles out slowly you need to break the vacuum.  Again, 
check your manual - there may be a little plug on the top of the 
thermostat housing..... I think its there partly as a vacuum break.

	Good luck,

	Reg

    Thanks for the ideas on draining...  Yes, there are petcocks on the
    engine and all, I have drained the "seawater" before to prevent
    freezing as I use dry storage in my yard (I say "seawater" because this
    cruiser only gets hauled to freshwater as I live in Colorado).  I was sort
    of hoping I could avoid messing around with all of the hoses...  and
    chemicals are different to drain than just letting the water out.  as
    you said, it would require a funnel and tube.  Hmmm.
    
    Maybe I can flush it somewhere in town that does radiators for autos?
    
    I just can't beleive that the dealer said it was ready to launch... 
    Maybe I should check with them again, I don't know what they used to
    winterize it.
    
    ..Mike

Find out what your marina used to winterize it.

If they used automotive antifreeze (ethylene glycol) drain it into
containers and take it to your town landfill when they have one of 
those "hazardous waste disposal days".  Or save it for re-use in your 
car if it's still clean and near full strength.  I'm sure it didn't 
lose its anti-corrosion properties from sitting in your boat a few 
months.

If the marina used non-toxic "RV" type antifreeze, drain all you can
into containers and save it for next year.  I would think that the 
small amount left in the block would then be diluted enough when you
flush the block onto your driveway that it should not cause any envir-
onmental harm.  But since I'm an outboard owner,  I have no first hand 
eperience with this stuff.  Check the intructions on the container 
first.  

In either case, winterize it yourself next year, and use the non-toxic
stuff!

Rick W.

P.S.  Remember back in the "good old days" before anyone knew any better,
      when you could just dump oil and anti-freeze down the sewer and
      not give it a second thought!?

     Last year, the EPA outlawed the use of ethelyne glycol antifreeze
    for use as a marine winterizer. We were all well warned at our
    marina. Soooooooooooooooo, if your marina used glycol type,
    ask them what they intend on doing. My opinion is that they
    own the problem. If they 're not very cooperative, call
    the EPA.  
    
    Jim

    
    	After the block has been drained (you can never get it all) and 
    	if you flush the engine in the driveway. Remember to wash the 
    	driveway good and dilute the puddles.
    	The auto antifreeze taste sweet but is deadly to our furry friends.
    

    Well thanks to all of you for your comments!  My Dealer told me that
    currently, my block is dry, that there is only antifreeze (the toxic
    kind) in the outdrive, and all I need to do is drain it into a bucket
    before I go (OMC has three plugs in outdrive).  You will be happy to
    hear that the dealer was also environmentally concious about the
    antifreeze, and begged me not to launch it with the stuff in the drive.
    
    They neglected to tell me that when I picked it up.
    
    Well, wish me luck, there is 3 inches of snow here today, but Sunday it
    should get up to 65, if it is blue skies and sunny (typical Colorado
    weekend), I just may go for it!
    
    Then I will drain the block as before... it may still hard-freeze here
    before June.
    
    -Mike_who_didnt_mention_this_is_a_CIERA_2155_no_Bayliner_cracks_please!

    
    re: Mike,
    
    	Antifreeze in the Outdrive only? How do you get it into the outdrive?
    
    Rick A_guy_without_an_outdrive
    

    
      Antifreeze in the *outdrive*??!!
    
      Drain plugs - to drain the WATER? out of an *outdrive*??!!
    
    
      It's EASY to get antifreeze INTO an outdrive, (run it in a tub
    of 50/50 mixture), but if the outdrive is tilted *down*, 95% of 
    all water/antifreeze will drain out immediately!
    
      The ONLY drain plugs I've EVER seen in an outdrive (OMC, Volvo,
    Mercruiser) are there to drain the *OIL* out of the gearcase(s).
    AND there should NEVER be antifreeze put into the gearcase(s) of
    an outdrive!
    
    					Kenny

    
    >	      The ONLY drain plugs I've EVER seen in an outdrive (OMC, Volvo,
    >Mercruiser) are there to drain the *OIL* out of the gearcase(s).
    >AND there should NEVER be antifreeze put into the gearcase(s) of
    >an outdrive!
    
    	Yeah, my thoughts exactly.... Whatever you do make sure you
    DON'T drain the gearcase lubricant then take the boat for a spin.
    
    	Best bet with the conflicting information is put the "muffs"
    on it, run it in the driveway and wash away any bright green
    fluid (antifreeze) that may come out of it. Might want to change
    the gearcase lube before hand just to be safe. Afterall, outdrives
    ain't cheap....
    
    Rick

    HOLD UP,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
       I read the earlier note, where the blck was dry and the 
       lower unit was filled with anti-freeze, i'm not an expert
       and don't own one.
    
     How's about taking it back to the dealer and letting him
    ready it for the water. If he screws it up he owns the problem.
    YOU DID KEEP THE RECIEPTS.
    
    The other item I want to object too, is putting on the muffs,
    and flushing it in the driveway. WE HAVE ENOUGH POLLUTION 
    PROBLEMS DON'T GO ADDING TO IT. YOU COULD IN FACT POISON YOURSELF.
    
    
     I agree that antifreeze in the lower unit does sound strange...
    
    
    Jim.

RE: Note 602.26

>>    The other item I want to object too, is putting on the muffs,
>>  and flushing it in the driveway. WE HAVE ENOUGH POLLUTION 
>>  PROBLEMS DON'T GO ADDING TO IT. YOU COULD IN FACT POISON YOURSELF.
  

OK, that brings up a good point that's valid for either cars or boats.
Once you've opened the drainplug(s) and drained as much antifreeze as 
possible into containers, you're now left with a relatively small amount 
of antifreeze in the block.  With a boat you need to remove it before
launching, and with a car you'll be flushing the block with fresh water
before refilling.

It's enough of a problem to dispose of the gallon or two of concentrated 
anitfreeze that you drained into containers.  What are you supposed to
do with the 10 or 20 gallons of tainted water that you used to flush the 
system?  Collecting the runoff as it sprays all over the place is difficult
enough, and once it's collected I've never heard of any place to legally 
dispose of it.  Jim has voiced his objection to flushing it down the 
driveway, and rightfully so.  But I don't see what alternative there is
to mixing it with lots of water and letting it flow down the driveway.

Any suggestions?  Anyone know how the garages that do this stuff every
day are dealing with the problem?  

Rick W.

    I dimly recall some softdrink manufacturer or other being told not
    to use ethylene glycol as a sweetner anymore, so although it probably
    isn't the greatest stuff to dispose of, it might not be the worst.
     I don't know if the antifreeze formulation with rust inhibitors
    and other additives is very similar to the other stuff.  
    
    The RV potable antifreeze is alcohol based.  I wouldn't be concerned
    about simply dumping on the ground.   In fact, I flush the system
    in my motorhome into my septic system with no ill effects (on the
    septic system).  
    
    None Of This Is Stated As Absolute Fact!  Perhaps one could call the 
    Prestone folks for a definitive answer?                             
    
    Carl

re	Anti-freeze in the out-drive:

	Sure, I've had it in mine, every year at about this time



	From  march 31st at midnight  'til about noon the next day.

    	re: Jim and Rick W.

    		The situation Rick W. describes is what I assumed
    is the case with Mike's boat. ie: Block dry but somehow antifreeze
    in the outdrive and Rick brings up a valid point. What do you do
    when every drop of antifreeze that can be recovered has been?

    		My thought is that dumping and diluting it on the driveway
    is by far better than just sticking it in the lake.

    Rick

    BTW: I'm really losing it now... I understood 602.29!

re	Water and anti-freeze in the out-drive.

Light:

.29 was a hint at the possibility that some leg pulling was afoot - as 
in,  "How much anti-freeze should I put in my VW bug ?"

Serious:

	My Mercruiser Alpha 1 doesn't retain any water once I haul it.  
There is a small drain hole, about 1/8 inch diameter, at the lowest 
point of the water system - I've always assumed this to be for 
drainage, just like an outboard.   I don't know about OMC outdrives, 
if I had one I would check it for drain plugs and/or drain holes.  If 
it had drain holes I would be sure to check that they were clear, if 
it had drain plugs I would use them to drain any retained anti-freeze 
into a bucket <as per lay-up/recommissioning instructions, RTFM, etc.>

	R

    have we been suckered here, somebody from the EPA taken
    
    a survey here... HTFDIK.
    
    
    JIM.

    
    	Last night I heard the a weather bozo say "possibility of
    wet snow" on Saturday.... Sounds like we'll have to get up
    Saturday morning and take a peak out the window...
    
    Rick
    

    
    Yup, that's what I heard too.  If they're right this'll
    make 4 Saturdays in a row with lousy weather.  I've been
    on the water each of the last 3 weekends, have seen a high
    temp of about 45 and a total of about 15 minutes of sunshine.
    I'd rather not endure the same conditions again this weekend,
    so we'll have to check the conditions on Saturday morning.
    
    But I just know that when I see the boat in the driveway,
    softly calling me "let's go, let's go" we'll end up out there
    no matter what the conditions!
    
    Rick W.

re .33

	Gee, maybe by the middle of next week it'll be cold, miserable 
and  *_NASTY ENOUGH_*  for another Gumball  ???

	R

    re: Mike's Outdrive...
    
    Mike here, Sorry, I've been having too much fun (work) lately to keep
    up, should have replied earlier...
    
    Yes, there are seawater plugs in the OMC outdrive I have (1989 on a v8
    351), they are above the oil plugs for the crankcase.  (Consult the
    owners manual).  There are two on the starboard side, and one the port
    side.
    
    The water will drain from the port side when all 3 plugs are removed. A
    very minute amount of water could possibly be left.  I squirted a 50/50
    dilution through the holes, my dealer mentioned that the only one which
    would have any benifit is the port side, but that they doubted there
    was any liquid left in the outdrive when the port drive was pulled.
    
    Apparrently, they leave a small amount of 50/50 in the outdrive only,
    after fogging the engine for the winter (and of course changing the
    oil).  I have found that what little amount drains, fits nicely in the
    reservior for the radiator on my tow vehicle.
    
    On my paticular engine (Cobra/Ford 5.8/351 v8), if all 4 pet-cocks are
    open (and drained) and the main hose has been disconnected, and the
    outdrive is drained, there is nothing to worry about (or so the dealer
    claims).
    
    By the way,  I had a great "spring launch" day.  Nice thing was, after
    sitting for 6 months, it started on the first try.  Not everyone else
    at the lake was doing so well, one large Sea-Ray (I think 28 ft.)
    caught on fire, still on the trailer.  Felt sorry for the guy.
    
    Happy Boating,   ...Mike

    
    Well, since this is the closest thing we have to a recommisioning note,
    I'll ask here...
    
    Has anyone heard of changing the oil/filter on a laid up engine in 
    the spring, when said engine had fresh oil/filter already during
    it's fall winterization procedure?
    
    Something about acidity in the oil that has been sitting over the
    chillier months? 
    
    News to me.... any ideas?
    
    Thanks,
        
    Rick

re               <<< Note 602.37 by KAHALA::SUTER "Never too Hot!" >>>
>                          -< How clean is clean oil? >-
    
>    Has anyone heard of changing the oil/filter on a laid up engine in 
>    the spring, when said engine had fresh oil/filter already during
>    it's fall winterization procedure?

	Yes, but I thought it only applied to the oil in the pan - not 
the filtre.
    
>    Something about acidity in the oil that has been sitting over the
>    chillier months? 

	My info was that condensation (water) is what is in there that 
needs to come out.  How much ?  dunno, might be a theoretical thing.
Water sinks in oil, so once the water is under the oil I doubt 
that it would ever evaporate out again, even in a New England February.

>    News to me.... any ideas?
		    -----------
			^

	Yep, just say, "NO"  (to winterizing)  (-:

	If my engine doesn't run for a couple or three months I take 
out the plugs, squirt in  "quite a lot"  of WD40 in each plug hole, 
wait 5 minutes or so, turn the engine over by hand a couple of times.  
Then I drive to the ramp (~3 miles) put the plugs back in, launch and 
start the engine.  This always works very well, doesn't lead to wet 
plugs, plumes of black smoke, etc.  I usually drain the oil as soon as 
I pull the boat out from such a  "first run of the season" and it 
isn't run for very long with this small quantity of WD40 in the crank 
case oil.  This is in the early season, when we just don't go out for 
long runs, like its  COLD  out tharrrrrr.

>    Thanks,
        
>    Rick


	Well, just a bit of folk lore I picked up somewhere, maybe the 
only real good it does is to break up any rust film on the piston 
rings.

	Reg

    
    Just a hint for those with a few years on their external inboard
    water pump....
    
    You might want to replace the bolts that hold the pump housing together
    before one manages to snap when tightening like I managed to do last
    night. Geez, I was only using a small 7/16 wrench....
    
    Rick
    
    Surprisingly enough, it doesn't leak though..... :-) But the boat sure
    is loud w/o a motor cover!     

Lets see Rick boat is 7 years old and you just decided to tighten the

water pump bolts, talk about preventitive maintenance.

JIm  :)

    
    re: Jim,
    
    	Nope... I had removed my impellor from it's winter
    storage spot in the freezer and was re-assembling the pump
    as I do every year when I snapped a bolt....
    
    
    	I realize you were just busting me, but I thought I had
    to reply just so everyone else would know that my water pump
    hasn't remained assembled for 7 years... :-)
    
    Rick

i've been told that impellers are good for about 2-3 seasons.

i loosen the belt and turn the pulley in the opposite direction,

over the winter the impeeler takes a reverse set, in the spring

before tightening the belt, i give it 1 turn in the running direction.

if you allow it to just stay in its original position, when you lay

it up, it will maintain its set and not last as long.

putting it in the freezer is a new one for me.

JIm