Conference vicki::boats

    	I believe that the process of fixing blisters was covered
    extensively in the sailing conference. Since the moderator of 
    that conference eavesdrops in here as well, I'm sure he will 
    direct you to it.
    Whatayasay Alan?
    

    	I guess I beat Alan to this reply. The subject of blisters was
    covered in note 664 of the MSCSSE::SAILING conference.
    Regards,
    Paul

There have been many articles published about blistering -- the advice 
varies considerably, and there is much controversy about the results of 
the URI study (see SAILING Note 664). There is an inexpensive book 
available (I don't recal the title but I've seen it at BOAT/US) that
describles in detail how to repairs blisters. The author recommends
System 3 epoxy (which I used). The Gougeon Brothers (WEST epoxy) have
also published a short manual on repairing blisters. I'd suggest you
begin by reading both. 

I'm skeptical of the quickie methods (eg, Interprotect 2000/2001). A 
really good water barrier is several coats (now about 6 on our boat) of 
epoxy. Also, it is essential to get the hull laminate thoroughly dry 
before applying the barrier coat. In New England, it could well take 6 
to 12 months for a saturated hull to dry if simply left ashore. See the 
books for methods to reduce the drying time.

Don't ignore the blisters -- eventually they could sufficiently damage 
the hull enough to make it unseaworthy. Repairs are not difficult, but 
they are time-consuming, unpleasant, and expensive if you pay someone to 
do the work (a yard estimated over $7000 to do the bottom of a Carver 32 
owned by a friend -- we did our 32' boat for about $500 in materials and 
uncounted hours of labor). 

Alan

    I am putting this under this topic not because I have a gelcoat
    blistering problem, but because I may have the opportunity to have a
    barrier coat done to the boat at virtually no cost. I have a 21' Maxum
    runabout which is about 1 year old. Before I picked the boat up I had
    the dealer repair some gelcoat nicks in the bottom which had probably
    happened during mfg,shipping. I had waxed the bottom before they did it
    and had left the spots without wax. To make a long story short, several
    of the spots did not hold because, it appears, they did not adequately
    clean the hull before applying the epoxy (their repairs covered larger
    areas than where I had left unwaxed). Now in order to do the repairs 
    correctly, Maxum would like to send the boat to a fiberglass repair
    facility in Vermont (ironically about 20 miles from where the boat
    resides on Lake Champlain, and I had brought it all the way down to
    Boston to the dealer!). Anyway, while at the dealer I got to speak to
    the owner of the boat repair facility (Baker Boat Works in Bridport,
    VT) and he says that his professional advice is not to do the
    fiberglass/gelcoat repairs but to do the epoxy barrier coat/paint job
    which will be better for a boat which is in fresh water for 3 months
    per year. He said that a repaired boat is more likely to blister in the
    future and that even without the repair the boat will eventually
    blister anyway. He felt this is a more permanent prevention but will do
    whichever repair I wish. He said the epoxy barrier job will be about
    the same as the other repairs so this would probably not cost me
    anything. He said he has found Maxum to be fairly flexible in doing the
    right thing based on what the customer wants to do. 
    
    Part of his job would be to paint the bottom, which I had really hoped
    to avoid. I do not like the way it looks (or will look) on this boat
    and then I will get into a regular painting schedule. So the choice is
    this: fix the bottom of the boat so it will look as good as new but may
    well blister in N number of years - OR - have him do the barrier
    coat/bottom paint at probably no cost and probably not have a gelcoat
    blistering problem in the future. By the way, the normal cost for
    barrier coat is $75 per foot of boat length, about $1,575 for my 21
    footer. This SEEMS like a no-brainer (I should take the potentially
    free barrier coat job) but is there anything else I should consider?
    
    Thanks for the input.
    Larry

    I read through these gelcoat problem notes and can't help wonder if 
    fiberglass boats are all that more maintenance free than my 30 year
    old wooden boat.  After one winter of intense restoration about all
    I have to do to my wood boat annually (hull wise) is to sand down
    poor looking areas and touch it up with fresh paint.  I don't have
    ANY gelcoat problems.  (smile face)
    
    Jeff

    
    Wooden Boat agrees with you...I read an article about 1 year ago that
    made several interesting points, two of which stuck in my mind:
    
    	1) They stated that 90% of all fiberglass boats built between 1965
    	and 1990 would require some type of hull repair during the decade
    	of the 90's...
    
    	2) Wooden hulls were usually easier to repair in that the problem
    	could usually be corrected by replacing 1 or 2 planks or an 
    	occaisonal rib...
    
    The article stated that fiberglass repair would actually be one of the
    "boom" businesses of the boat industry for this decade.  Made me think 
    about one of my career "fantasies", quiting DEC and working in a boat
    yard...
    
    
    Jim (who loves wood, is still riding on glass...)
    

    Relative ease of repair (home shop possible) was one factor toward
    my purchase of a wooden boat.  By relative ease I mean that typical
    wood working tools give the wooden boat owner an excellent start
    toward wood boat repairs.  When I had a Al hull there was very little
    I could do to it to modify the boat to my personal needs.
    With the wooden boat there is NOTHING I have hired anyone to do to
    restore/modify the boat to my needs.  I have done it myself which
    was one of my goals... get the costs down via doing it myself.
    
    Jeff

    
    I'll agree up to a point. Let me clarify what i mean.
    
    If you have a 20 ft. wooden boat, you trailer and take home
    its not difficult (providing you don't mind and have the tools)
    Its when you get into a larger boat, one you cannot trailer
    home, and have to work on at the boat yard, that it becomes
    a real chore. You no longer have the convenience of all your tools,
    and if you need to travel any distance to the boat, the difficulty
    multiplies.
    
    I had a 20 ft. wooden boat i could trailer. I was able to
    work on it at home, which made it very convenient.
    
    I have a larger boat today, which i cannot trailer, and leave
    at the marina in the fall. If it were wood, it would be
    difficult to work on.
    
    When you talk about an occasional plank or rib that needs to be
    replaced, tain't always that easy.
    
    I will stay with glass for many reasons including the above.
    
    JIm.

    MOD hat on...
    
    This discussion is interesting, but getting a bit off the base
    topic.  Anyone who'd like to can start a new topic on wood vs.
    fiberglass vs. aluminum hull construction and maintenance.
    
    Rick

    Didn't mean to get the discussion off the track of the topic but I can
    understand how it went that way. I think I was somewhat surprised to
    find out that fiberglass is not as maintenance/repair-free as certainly
    I believed it was. This certainly does not mean that I would not
    continue with a fiberglass boat. I am a woodworker and have had a wood
    boat but I would not want to continue with the "have to do" items on a
    wood boat that I saw my father perform. I do, however, find it rather
    galling that the construction of my fiberglass boat does not make it
    water-PROOF in fresh water when left in that water for 90 days per
    season. I do not understand how the marine industry has not solved this
    problem over all these years. I guess it is a low priority with them
    since probably a small percentage of their customers leave their
    boats moored in fresh water. They are certainly aware of the problem
    since there is a bold-type recommendation of epoxy barrier coats for
    "permanently moored" boats in the owners manual. When I brought the
    boat to Lake Champlain I looked for how many small to medium boats had
    painted bottoms, which one would have to do when the barrier coat is
    done. VERY few have painted bottoms and I mentioned this to the owner
    of the Baker's repair facility. He replied that probably at least half
    of the boats left in for the season on Lake Champlain had a blistering
    problem and the owners either did not know or did not care. He said
    that boat surveyors/inspectors/dealers were much more sensitive to the
    problem and many owners would be surprised when it came time to sell.
    I think a previous comment about a coming boom in fiberglass repair
    business might be right! He said SOME manufacturers were beginning to
    address the problem but many of the higher priced boats you might think
    of were NOT in this group. 
    
    Anyway, my aggravation is mainly having to change the color of the
    bottom of the boat by painting it after the barrier coat is done
    (painting is included in the job). I would really be upset if I also
    had to foot the whole ($1,575) bill!! I take the boat to Baker's this
    weekend and I will pass along any other words of wisdom from him.
    
    Larry

    	Blistering is undergoing quite a bit of study to determine the
    cause and the best fixes.  The industry knows that certain types of
    resins are more resistant to blistering than others.  That is the good
    news the bad is that this resin is more expensive.  Many premium
    builders of sailboats (probably power as well) are offering 10 year
    blister warranties.  Additionally, how clean (dust free) an
    environment the boat is made in, the number of voids in the laminate,
    laminate schedule, a dry bilge etc. all factor into the equation.


    	A U.S. coast guard study done at the University of Rhode Island
    indicated that a dry bilge and a painted bottom (forget exact type of
    paint) was the best insurance against it.  Once the hull has blistered
    the Epoxy barrier coat appears to be the preferred method of repair. 
    The work is messy and tedious but can be done by a home (ask Alan
    Berens about it) if one is so inclined.  In your case I would be glad
    that the builder is willing to foot the bill.  Get it fixed correctly
    and take care of it and you should not have to worry about blisters for
    a long time.


    Forrest

    I certainly AM glad that the mfg. (Maxum/US Marine) is footing the
    bill. I hauled the boat to Baker Boat Works in Bridport, Vt, this
    weekend. I wound up spending about 2 hours with him before I left
    discussing my boat, others he had there being repaired and his
    boats/Corvette/jet-skis, etc. Very interesting guy, been in fiberglass
    repair for 22 years. He gets alot of insurance work as well as factory
    warranty work. He had boats there from Long Island, Canada, Maine, etc.
    He also has done tests for the Interlux/Petits of the world on new
    products. He has a 19' Chapparal (350 Magnum, 71 MPH) with an epoxy 
    bottom coating which looks as shiny as gelcoat. More expensive to do
    but the manufacturer pulled it off the market due either to the UV
    damage potential of uncoated epoxy or the danger to applicator of the
    material.  
    
    Although he is from Vermont and now has his business in
    Vermont, most of his experience come from working in New Jersey and New
    York.
    
    He was pretty definite: boats left in the water will probably
    eventually blister. Painting helps the problem but will not prevent it
    and will, in some instances, mask the problem. It is perceived to be
    less of a salt-water issue because most people paint there for the
    anti-fouling. The only prevention/cure is epoxy barrier coat with an
    anti-fouling paint finish. Sprayed gelcoat is nowhere near as good
    (water/abrasion resistance, color retention) as gelcoat in the mold as
    the boat is built. Gelcoat was engineered to work in the vacuum of a
    mold. A gelcoat repair will blister within 2 years, probably one.
    High-end boat builders are beginning to work with new gelcoats but from
    the names he reeled off, they are REAL high-end.
    
    He feels that this is a problem which the manufacturers have been 
    downplaying for obvious reasons. The fix (either barrier coats or new
    gelcoats) will be expensive and the middle level market is very
    competitive. Increased prices for boats overall (and particularly for
    only those boats from manufacturers who are attempting to fix the
    problem) could impact boat sales in recessionary times. My Maxum owners
    manual recommends an epoxy barrier coat/anti-fouling paint for boats
    which are "permanently moored". Sales lit. and salesman certainly did
    not highlight this, of course I did not ask either.
    
    He is pretty tight with US Marine and said they have been very
    cooperative in helping customers with this problem. I am certainly an
    example of this. Back in May my dealer did a few minor repairs of nicks
    in the bottom, which did not hold up over the season (some small pieces
    of gelcoat repair had chipped at the edges of the repair). I took the
    boat to them and they got a quote from a local repair company
    to, as they put it, "make the bottom like new". US Marine elected to
    take the boat to Baker's and he is going to do the epoxy coat/paint
    job instead of the gelcoat work originally quoted at the dealers for
    the same cost to US Marine, and no cost to me. I really lucked into
    this, if the original repairs had held up I probably would not have
    noticed it.
    
    Larry
    
    
    

    Two items I forget in yesterday's entry:
    
    1 - Blistering is not a problem for primarily trailered boats. For it
    to be a problem the boat must be left in the water for extended
    periods. Also he said he has seldom seen blistering on transoms or
    above the chines, in other words, on near vertical hull surfaces even
    though they are below the water line. The blisters seem to appear on
    the bottom.
    
    2 - The use of a bottom cleaner which contains acid (the one I used
    this Fall contained oxalic acid) will hasten the onset of blistering.
    It actually etches the gelcoat in addition to cleaning it. The more it
    is used, the more the gelcoat is damaged and the sooner it will blister
    if left in the water unprotected.
    
    Larry

    There are a few mis-statements in the previous notes. I have done
    extensive investigation on blistering since I once sold a boat that had
    developed them, and once almost boat a new boat that had been in the
    water (with bottom paint) for only a year and the survey showed
    blisters were starting to form.
    
    These are my points:
    
    1. Not all boats blister sooner or later. Blistering is a problem with
    the interaction of resin and water. It has nothing to do with gelcoat
    except gelcoat is porous and lets the water through. I have a 22 year
    old fiberglass boat with no blisters which has been in the water for 22
    years year round in both fresh and salt in different parts of its life.
    I don't believe this boat will ever blister if it hasn't by now.
    
    2. Blisters form anywhere below the water line, transoms and chines as
    well as the general bottom. They were all over the new boat I almost
    bought.
    
    3. Blisters don't seem to have a brand preference. I have seen
    Bayliners as well as Hatteras with the problem. Nobody seems to know
    exactly why some boats blister and some don't. If you knew that you
    would be rich consulting with all the boat builders.
    
    4. Once present, they seem to reoccur on the same boat, epoxy treatment
    or not. I know a guy with a BeneTeau sailboat that has done his bottom
    8 times.
    
    Blisters are a subject that there are lots of opinions about, no real
    knowledge.

    There is also disagreement on preventative measures. Some say one of
    those epoxy barrier coat treatments shouyld be applied.  Others say it
    will void the manufacturer's warranty so don't even think about it....

    In terms of warranty, I would guess you would have to specifically
    clarify the effect of a barrier coat on a specific manufacturers
    warranty. In Maxum's case, blistering is not covered by the warranty
    and the owner's manual RECOMMENDS a barrier coat and paint for a
    "permanently moored boat" so I can't believe that following a
    recommendation is going to void their warranty. I can't comment with
    experience with other warranties.
    
    Re: .-2
    
    Something has to be wrong with someone having to do an epoxy coat 8
    times! I certainly hope they are not paying someone to do it each time.
    You could probably buy a new boat for that. If doing it themselves they
    must be doing something wrong or we are not talking about the same
    thing. I know from reading and talking to the persdon doing mine that
    hull prep is very important (must be well sanded since epoxy does not
    chemically bond to polyester) and temperature must be compensated for,
    and coats of epoxy and paint must be applied within certain times or
    they will not adhere to the previous coat. 
    
    Larry

    Does blistering in any way affect the proformance of the boat? Or is it
    just a cosmetic thing which looks funny but doesn't cause any leaks
    etc?
    
    			Steve M...(who isn't sure what they are.)
    

    My understanding is that blistering exposes the fiberglass mat.
    
    In doing so, the mat can become water-logged and the water
    
    wicks thru the glass mat to other places, and causes furhter
    
    problems. I thought there was a discussion on this subject
    
    here somewhere.  Anyway if you have the problem don't ignore it.
    
    It can be very serious.
    
    JIm.  

    re: .7
    If you're going to compare gelcoat blisters to your skin, think of 
    them more as skin cancer than blisters.  If treated in time they
    can be relatively harmless.  But there's always a chance they'll
    come back, and if left untreated they can be fatal to your boat
    by allowing water to penetrate the hull material, separating
    laminations and weakening the integrity of the hull.  It's not 
    just a cosmetic problem.
    
    Rick

    
    
    I have a 2 year old 17.5' stingray that has developed the dreaded pox.
    The dealer sent the boat back to stingray to have it inspected and
    evaluated. The reply from stingray was as follows:
    
     " Blistering is not covered by warranty, therefore no warranty
    adjustment is in order. In the spirit of "good customer relations" we
    offer to replace the hull. For a cost of $1750 we will disassemble the
    hull, deck, interior and motor; replace the hull; and reassemble."
    
     My question is, are any other stingray owners seeing this problem. If
    I go ahead and have the hull replaced what is the probability that in
    another 2 years I will be in the same situation ? Any inputs
    
      Kevin O'Connor 
                    

    Kevin,
    
    Although there are alot of unknowns and controversy surrounding
    blistering, I would suggest to you that it depends less on the make and
    type of boat than it does on how you use it. If you moor it for long
    periods in the water, particularly warmer fresh water, you are more likely
    to have a problem. This seems to be true if you have a boat that is
    laid up with polyester gelcoat. If the boat is primarily trailered or
    otherwise spends less time IN the water, then you are less likely to
    have the problem. I got to be more knowledgeable about this last year
    than I ever cared to due to a problem with my Maxum, which is detailed
    in some earlier notes in this topic. In regards to Stingrays, a close
    friend of my fathers has a 21' Stingray small cruiser that is about 3 
    years old and has been moored in Lake Champlain from May through August 
    each year. When he hauled his out he asked me to look at it since the
    guy who did the barrier coat on mine had showed me a few examples. Sure
    enough (and I sure felt like the bearer of bad news!) his was
    blistered. It had probably 50 to 75 blisters about the size of a dime
    on the bottom. He has spent the winter trying to decide what to do with
    it.
    
    If you use your boat in a manner which puts you more at risk for the
    blisters, I would suggest that you try to get Stingray to contribute to
    the cost of an epoxy barrier coat rather than replacing the hull since
    this will be a long-term fix. If you do not keep it in the water much
    then perhaps that particular hull does have a problem and replacing it
    will be the solution. BTW, the retail for an epoxy barrier coat
    (stripping the gelcoat off the bottom, fairing any deep gouges, and
    applying the epoxy) goes for around $75 per foot at retail. That is
    about $1,350 for your boat. If you also have them do the painting (the
    epoxy must be painted) you are still less than the $1,750 they want to
    replace the hull, and you may have a permanent solution. Depends on how
    you use the boat.
    
    Larry  

    
      Larry, thanks for the reply. The boat goes into the water in middle of 
    may and gets removed first of september. The boat is moored in a
    shallow and therefore relitively warm cove on a lake. This sounds like
    ideal conditions for blisters to form. I'll call the dealer and ask
    about a barrier coat. 
    
    
    Kevin

    If I were you, I would take the new hull and do the barrier coat on it,
    not the old one. Blisters do reappear once you have them even with a
    barrier coat since it is so hard to get them 100% taken care of. AS
    they say, You pay them now or pay them later.

Barrier coats (meaning several coats of 100% solids epoxy) are very 
helpful in preventing blistering, but they are not a guarantee that
blisters will not (re)occur. There are at least two good texts on
blister repair, one from the WEST epoxy folks. 

One a hull has blistered, the hull laminate must be dried. This can be a 
somewhat of a problem in itself. If the laminate isn't dry, there is no
point in applying a barrier coat.

Repairing a blistered hull and applying epoxy barriers coats isn't 
difficult -- it is mostly hard work and time-consuming. The hull of our 
32' boat developed some minor blistering in 1986. In the spring of 1987 
I scraped and sanded off all of the bottom paint and filled the blisters 
with epoxy filler. Then using a tent around the hull and a couple of big 
heaters, we (about six of us) applied four coats of epoxy in one day. 
Since then we've had a few minor blisters. The epoxy and other materials 
to do our boat probably cost $300 to $400. Most of the cost of having 
the work done is labor.

    Kevin,
    
    I think it becomes somewhat of a question of how much money do you
    invest in a 17.5 foot boat. The BEST from a purist standpoint would be
    to replace the hull and then do the barrier coat. This means that you
    spend the $1750 for Stingray to replace the hull and then about $1500
    to have the epoxy job (and paint) done or something less in $$$ and a
    whole lot of labor to do it yourself. This means a range of from about
    $3250 to maybe a low of $2100 which you will invest in this boat. This
    is OK if you are going to keep it for 20 years, but much less time and
    you will never get your money back.
    
    I would also suggest that there are other risks and inconveniences such
    as how long it will take Stingray to complete the job, and what other
    damage (overt or hidden) can be done to the boat during this
    hull-replacement process. You would want to clearly understand what
    happens if something non-hull related gets broken during the process.
    If you then choose to do the epoxy job
    yourself, what are the risks of you not doing the job correctly (not
    having the correct temperature, not doing successive coats
    and the paint at the right time, not mixing the epoxy correctly to
    reflect the temperature and humidity, etc.). For mine it was a
    no-brainer since US Marine was paying for the whole job, but my rather
    lengthy discussions with the owner of the boat-yard which did mine
    convinced me I was still glad someone else was doing the job. Mine
    also had a few spots just starting (a few pin-head sized spots which
    you could only see if the light was just right). The boat was actually
    there to have a couple of minor gelcoat repairs re-done that had been
    initially done at the selling dealer's. 
    
    If it were mine, I would try to get Stingray to invest as much as I
    could in an epoxy job, and I would pay the rest. This may not be the
    perfect fix but it would be a reasonable fix at a more modest
    investment. I would also investigate why they would replace the hull.
    This seems somewhat extreme unless they know of this particular problem
    or some other problem with this hull.
    
    I think you are right that your boat is used in the perfect conditions
    for blistering. They are the same as my boat and my that of my father's 
    friend. All this means is that even if you replace the hull, you still
    have to do something to protect the new one.
    
    Larry

    
    re: larry,
    
    	I just went back and re-read all your replies wondering
    what kind of warranty Baker's is providing with the Epoxy
    barrier coating and bottom paint on your Maxum.
    
    	Will he repair any future blisters at no charge?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Rick
    
    	BTW: Correct Craft has (used to have; 1987) the same disclaimer
    	about the hull.
    
    	Maybe a Nylan boat lift is in order, huh?

    Rick,
    
    I don't know of anyone who warrants epoxy barrier coats/paint unless
    there was some failure (crack, peeling off, etc.). Frankly, I don't
    remember asking him about it, probably because I would not expect him
    to warrant it against some blistering sometime in the future.
    I would expect he would fix any obvious defect. He
    described it as a "permanent fix" on Lake Champlain but nothing lasts
    forever. The paint, of course, will need to be re-done in, I believe he
    said, 4-5 years. He described how to thin out the paint (he uses
    Fiberglass Bottom Coat) when it needs to be recoated. One thing I liked
    about him was that he had experience with the exact body of water on
    which I keep the boat. There appears to be some variance based on the
    temperature, circulation, and chemical make-up of the particular body
    of water. In sum, I expect his warranty would be limited to failure of
    the material or his labor, not to some future blistering. 
    
    A boat lift is really not an option where we are located on Lake
    Champlain. My folks' cottage fronts on a beach situation and the Lake
    level is not controlled, it is high in the Spring and gradually
    declines over the season to a low in the Fall. This is a usual variance
    of about 3 feet. In a wet Spring and dry Summer it can vary even more.
    All our docks need to be moved out over the season (they are on wheels) 
    and a boat lift would be under water in the Spring (especially this 
    coming Spring!)and high-and-dry in August. I wish I could use one, though!
    
    My Maxum warranty does not cover blistering, either. In fact, in big
    bold letters, the manual states that Maxum recommends an epoxy barrier
    coat for "permanently moored" boats. I was not crazy about painting it
    but at least it will be easier to clean during and at the end of the
    season. The anti-fouling factor in the paint should help with the green
    slime effect. The hull is now black over black with a red and white
    boot stripe (stealth colors!)
    
    Larry                            

    
    Does anyone know of a reputable company in the Winnepisaukee area that
    could refinish a Fiberglass boat with GelCoat?  I have an 86 Four Winns
    that is black and it has gotten really smokey.....
    
    
    Thanks,
    Steve
    

They are located on rt 106 just south of Laconia. (is it Belmont?)  They have an 
excellent rep and get lots of referels from boat yards around the lake.

I believe there is a note somewhere in here that deals with work done by them.

TOm

Steve and Jeanne Price
963 State Route 106
Belmont NH 03220

603-267-7665

The Marine Surveyor assigned by BOAT US after WINDSONG was zapped by lightning
last October convinced me to haul battered hull up to Steve. (a number of holes
through and blisters in the hull in addition to one fried set of wires)

Gelcoat work was well beyond my expectations.

He also arranged for  all the electrical work with a local subcontractor.

WINDSONG came back a week ago looking better than when we bought her 
four years ago. 

If it floats, or is made of space age polymers(snow mobiles ets), Steve can 
restore it.

If it already looks good, he can make it look better.

When you call, just say WINDSONG is happy.

Fred