Conference vicki::boats

    check your grounds and battery cable conections. if you hear any
    clicking like the starter solenoid, good possibility its a 
    cruddy connection.
    
    Jim.

>> Yesterday I winterized my 165 mercruiser.  Ran it on the hose
>> connection, got it up to temperature, fogged the carb, ran the gas
>>  gas dry (shut off the line till the engine stalled out, drained the
>>  block and the manifold, added some antifreeze, and was about to
>>  crank it over a couple to lubticate the cylinders (WD40).  Engine
>>  wouldn't crank!

>>  Seems like the starter and flywheel gears must be jamming when the
>>  starter engages, (my best guess).  Never happened before.
   
Herb,
I hope you're right about it being just the starter jammed.  But you
may have "hydaulic locked" the motor.  This is when a cylinder fills
up with a liquid which cannot be compressed, and can happen very easily
from improper fogging.  It can damage the piston, connecting rod, engine
block, crankshaft, or any combination of the above.  It can happen by
pouring too much oil directly into the carb while fogging the motor, or
by overfilling the cylinder with WD40 or penetrating oil.

Try removing the spark plugs and cranking the motor.  With any luck you
haven't damage anything and can just blow the excess liquid out the 
spark plug hole.  If it still won't turn, remove the starter and try
to spin the motor with a ratchet on the front of the crank.  And if it
still won't turn, well, you don't wanna know.

I speak from first hand experience when I tell you that the starter motor 
alone generates enough torque to damage internal components if the cylinder
is filled with liquid.  In my case I was only cranking the motor and
bent a connecting rod.  If it happens while the motor is running the
results can be explosive.

Be very careful fogging any motor.  I've heard of a motor being "hydraulic
locked" before from improper fogging.  Personally I would never pour oil
directly into the carb - I use OMC's fogging oil which comes in a spray
can and sprays a mist of oil into the carb.

Good Luck!

Rick W.

Herb,
Oh yeah, one other thing.  If removing the spark plugs does free 
up the motor, you'll want to "un-winterize" it temporarily and run 
it for a few minutes.  Run it up and down through the rpm range, 
checking for vibrations, skips, etc..  What you want to do is make 
sure you didn't damage anything internally.  By finding out about 
it now you'll have the winter to repair it, rather than waiting 'til 
spring when you're ready to drop the boat in the water.

Rick

    Thanks Rick.... I'll check tonight.  Hopefully removing the plugs
    will give me a clue.  Could have over fogged it, but iI hadn't poured
    any oil directly into the cylindars, and I sprayed WD into the carb
    intermittantly over a period of a couple of minutes.
    
    Will let you know what I find
    
    Herb
    

    Removed the plugs and engine turned over fine.  Blew excess oil
    from the #5 & 6 cylinders.  Hydraulic locked motor was the problem.
    Ran it for best part of an hour.....  No apparent damage, no
    vibrations, skips, or strange noises.  Purrs like a kitten just like 
    before.  Will re-winterize again this weekend.
    
    Thanks for the help
    Herb    

    
    No problem Herb.  Glad to hear the story has a happy ending.
                                                
    Rick

    I'm probably too late to add my two cents worth but.....WD40 uses
    a kerosene carrying agent.  Kero can wash lubricant away on vertical
    surfaces like cylander walls.  Even though this wash is replaced with
    the WD40 lubricant...my OPINION is that WD40 is worthless with respect 
    to the internal winterization of marine engines.
    
    __mb

After spending a lot of money and time and skin and finger nails and blood and
increasing my chances of cancer and other grave illnesses  and risking injury
and disaster while responding to the pressures of neighbors and my own desires,
I have finally come up against the final roadblock in getting my boat ready.

I tried to start her (on the trailer with a hose attached to the muffs). 

It made a grinding sound for a moment, and then stopped. No action, just a 
single click when I turned the key. She's a 1977 Sea Ray with a 188 Hp 
Mercruiser that makes use of a Ford block. The battery  is brand new and fully
charged, I am quite confident that it is good and not the source of the problem.
I did pull the plugs to see if it would crank over any easier. No.

In another note I reported hard starting last season. There were two different
difficulties. After sitting for a while the engine was hard to turn over at
times, sometimes accompanied by a kind of rasping sound. Once I got it started
it would turn right over with no problem for the rest of the weekend/week. The
other was that while it would turn over nicely it just wouldn't catch right 
away the first time (this is the one I was refering to in the Dwell note).
After that it would start all day no problem. When the boatyard pulled the
engine to repair the outdrive they installed in and reported that they test ran
it with no problem. So I guess I was hoping against hope that it was me, or
they did something to it, or at least it was working again.

My first thought was that the starter is probably bad. Thinking that the
rasping sound I heard last year and the grinding I heard this was rust in the
mechanism somewhere. I have a spare starter from the other engine, so I planned
to swap them. Then I noticed the other isn't a marine starter, but I thought at 
least I could swap them as a diagnostic tool and see if another worked any
better, then I might be able to determine if it was the starter or not. If so I
could take the old one to one of the marine supply stores around Boston for an
exchange or get it rebuilt.

THE PROBLEM:

Is that I couldn't get the starter off. It's all unbolted and lose, but the dip
stick tube makes it impossible to pull out.

                          o
                          |<-Dip stick tube to oil pan (oil pan behind starter 
                          |   and motor mount block.
  e   |  ______________   |
  n   |_|              |  |
  g   |_|              |  | 
  i   |_|Starter       |  |  Pull starter in this direction --->
  n   | |______________|  |
  e __|              ____________
                    | Motor mount|
    ________________|    block   |___________
       Floor                        Forward -->

It seems that there is enough space between the oil pan and the motor mount 
block, the floor and the bottom of the block to pull the starter straight out
and down a bit, if the GD dip stick tube wasn't in the way. What was me
severely depressed me is that I am afraid that the only way to get it out may 
be to pull the engine (again). There's no way around that dip stick tube. Who
was saying I was lucky to have a Ford?

I tried to loosen then dip stick at the oil pan where there was a nut, hoping
that it was the type of flanged arrangement found in plumbing and  fuel lines,
it may still be, but when I tried the tube as well as the nut moved, so I 
stopped and am praying that I didn't damage it, because the only way to replace
the oil pan *is* to  pull the engine out.

In this particular situation the combination of the motor mount and dip stick
that make getting out a tough case. But if the dip stick tube wasn't in the
way it looks like it would come out. I have one of those manuals but it doesn't
say anything about the dip stick tube, only the oil pan. And the starter 
directions simply say unbolt and remove. Does anyone know if I can remove the
dip stick tube while on the engine? 

Or am I barking up the wrong tree with the starter idea?

john

    
    
    I'm not that familiar with fords- the last one I worked on was an 85 hp
    flathead-but I have a couple of questions:
    
    1. is the dispstick mounted in the block or in the pan?? and how is it
    fastened- in GM's the tube is simply a press fit into the block and you
    loosen it and pull it out.
    
    2. If it is fastened to the pan- then , considering the age of the
    engine, you may have had either the pan or the entire engine replaced
    by a former owner, and the tube is not in the same position as the
    original engine/pan.
    
    3. Pulll the plugs and try cranking by hand- if it's tight and you hear
    that rasping sound-you may have rust in the cylinders which means the
    engine either wasn't winterized properly or you have gotten water in
    one of the cylinders-could be teardown time
    
     
    
    I'd be  suspicious about the engine gaving been replaced-
    it's easy enough to replace a marine block with an automotive, but most
    "shade tree" mechanics don't bother to change the head gaskets to
    marine  gaskets and the salt water finally eats through the gasket and
    causes all sorts of nasty problems.
    
     first- if it was my boat, I'd check  to make sure the engine type
    matched up with the original engine-If the dispstick tube is in the
    pan, someone may have changed the pan  (not an uncommon problem in
    boats)because of rusting out or change the entire engine.
    
    Can you block up the engine and remove the mount??
    
    Also you may want to check witha mercruiser dealer/shop or call the
    factory if the dealer is uncooperative.
    
    
    Check the current starter and check all electrical connections. If the
    starter is o.k,(any good auto electric shop can test and/or rebuild
    that starter- stay away from marine shops- that starter is the same as
    an automotive starter except for some flame arresting screens!)
    
    If the starter is ok then I would instal it and check for voltage
    drops when cranking.- if ther are no excessive voltage drops because of
    poor connection of a bad ground, then look for a tight engine.
    
    IF the engine is  simply tight and you hear this rasping sound, then be
    prepared for a teardown- sounds like water/rust in one of the
    cylinders- could be a previous owner replaced the engine and used
    automotive head gaskets.That's only ok if you have fresh water cooling.
    
    
    when I purchased my last boat I looked at a real bargain- except the
    OMC v-8 was paonted red and had a 2bbl carb- that original engine was
    blue and had a 4bbl carb- I pressed the owner and he admitted that he
    had replaced the engine ��from a "good" engine from a junkyard- except
    that he had a light du����ty (2 bolt main) automotive  engine with��
    non-marine carb, non marine gaskets and heads with undersized va��lves
    and the wrong cam.
    
     I walked away from that one- fast especially since the baot was used
    in salt water!
    
    Dick��
    

    My '76 SeaRay has a 302 Ford engine. Last year the starter did the same
    thing, pulling it down showed the whole mechanism (bendix, ect was
    rusted) I replaced it with an automotive one because neither I nor the
    parts man could see *any* differences. That starter lasted three
    months, then rusted out. A marine starter has better fit and seals than
    the automotive kind. The first (original) starter lasted 12 years, the
    second, five months, this marine one is now a year old and no problems.
    
    My dipstick is on the opposite side from the starter, but it does press
    fit into the engine. Carefully pull it out by rocking it while applying
    upward pressure. Make sure there isn't a piece of metal screwed in
    somewhere bracing it. 
    
    
    BTW, Ford starters rely on the starter casing to provide the ground
    path. When I replaced my first one, I returned it because it wouldn't
    work. We tried it in the store and it was ok. Connect the GROUND wire
    to a cood connection then touch the HOT. Check where it bolts up, wire
    brush it clean, the paint after the new one is in.
    
    ...Larry

Dick, the engine hasn't been replaced. The engine in the boat is the original
engine, having been rebuilt once. The starter that is on it has the "replace
with Mercruiser parts or replacement only" label on it. And it is a monster
starter. It does not look like any of the Ford starters I have seen before or
in pictures. It definately fits, it is definately Mercruiser. As part of the 
deal in getting my boat repaired I acquired another Mercruiser 188 Hp motor.
It was from this older spare engine that I got the other starter. It looks like
a typical Ford unit. It has a Motorcraft label on it. Knowing that it wasn't a
marine starter I wouldn't leave it in the boat, but I could have used it to see
if it would spin the egine.

Rusted cylinder(s) sounds real bad. Maybe I'll have to make use of that spare
engine after all. My luck it is in even worse shape.

The dip stick isn't press fit (although the one on the spare engine appears to
be - and on that one it is definately in the oil pan), there is a nut at its 
base. I was very sure it was in the oil pan, now you have given me doubts, but I
am still pretty sure.

I was looking for some way to turn it by hand, either I don't have the strength,
or I couldn't get enough leverage off the front pully, or maybe it is rusted
solid.

I thought of elavating the engine a bit (though I don't have an overhead hoist),
but I wasn't sure if the output shaft to the outdrive would allow it.


Larry, thanks. Funny that the dip sticks are on opposite sides of the same 
engine, isn't it? I found the ground strap to the starter bolt when I was 
unbolting the starter.

john

    Dip sticks are often on opposite sides of the same engine but with
    different rotations. This is done for the case of twin installations
    so both dip sticks can be reached conveniently from a center hatch
    over the engine compartment.
    

    
    *Many* marine engines have the dipstick bolted to the oil pan by
    means of the oil pan drain plug. If this is the case on your engine,
    removing the bolt on the bottom where the dipstick attaches to the
    oil pan - AND maybe a small support bolt somewhere up on the side
    of the dipstick, should cause the entire dipstick assembly to fall
    off - AND all the oil to drain out!  :^)
    
    
    					Kenny

    
    John,
    
    	My 351 PCM has the same dipstick setup, ie: There is a threaded
    fitting which screws into the oil pan. It has nothing to do with the
    oil drain plug as Kenny suggested it may. As a matter of fact, if
    I remember Correctly the entry hole for the dipstick tube is plenty
    high enough in the pan to retain the oil while the dipstick tube
    is removed.
    
    	I'd say get on the nut and undo it... try a 6 point wrench
    though...
    
    	About not being able to crank the motor by hand..... Did you say
    you could NOT crank it by hand when the spark plugs were removed?
    If this is the case, I'd start to worry...... If the plugs were in
    it, it would be a little less cause for alarm, but I have cranked
    V8s by hand with the plugs in albeit not easily.....
    
    Rick

    Trying it once with an automotive starter could be expensive.  Marine
    starters are ignition protected so as not to cause fire or explosion if
    you have a small gas leak.  It's your life.
    
    The click when you turn the key is the classic symptom of a defective
    Bendix drive, the gear/spring clutch on the end of the starter shaft.  
    
    J

My dip stick is as Rick says, it isn't as described in .13. I check the level on
the stick and then ran the stick down the outside of the tube to see where the
oile level would be relative to the fitting, and it did seem to be below that 
point. I wanted to know if I'd have to pump the oil out first, I didn't want it
all over the bilge!

In any case I have some small success to report. Maybe I was too tired last time,
or maybe I should have tried one more time, but I was able to get the big 
starter out of there by pushing it down a bit more. I did swap in the other 
starter to see what would happen. I had to know if the engine was shot! I left
the coil wire unplugged and hit the key. It turned right over as nice as could
be. This is what I hoped for. I didn't expect it to happen though. At worse I 
was expecting the same result leaving me to believe the engine was in sad shape,
at best I expected the spare starter to be bad so the results would be inconclu-
sive. However it seems to indicate pretty much a bad starter.

I realized that marine starters have the protection indicated by .15, so I made
sure there was no fuel leaks, no fuel smells, and I did it only after everything
was well vented. And I don't plan on leaving the starter in there.

So it seems as if I have a bad starter. That's good news compared to other 
possibilities. Now come the questions about new/rebuilt/have it rebuilt and
where is the best value.

I called one place and they told me that if my spare starter was truely an car
one that it was spinning my engine backwards. This leads me to wonder if it 
really is a marine starter afterall, because it did come off a Mercruiser engine
so it might be. I thought it was automotive because it said "Motorcraft" on it
and because it didn't look like the hulking unit that was on my motor. Dealer
says new Mercruiser starter is $381 for the type I have!

    
    John,
    
    	Glad to hear the motor cranked OK! You may or may not
    have been spinning the motor the wrong way. Since your "spare"
    starter came off the same Mercruiser block, I'd guess you were
    spinning it the correct way. Who knows and no damage done anyway.
    For instance, Reg can put an automotive starter on his Nautique,
    (insert disclaimer about automotive starters on boats) but I can't.
    His rotation is Left-hand and mine is Right-hand..... (not to pick on
    Reg's rotation :-) )
    
    	There are several places that will rebuild your original
    starter. One was mentioned in this notesfile, but I couldn't
    find the note... anyone remember where it is?
    
    	One place I noticed, but have no experience with is:
    
    		Dracut Alternator service
		1901 Bridge St.
    		Dracut, Ma
    
    		452-2735
    
    Rick
    

When I rebuilt my 188 Merc, I also had the starter rebuilt. I brought it
to shop in Nashua that I picked out of the phone book. I was worried that
the people there would not know what to do with a marine starter, but the
man I talked to recognized it as a marine variety immediately had no
problem with working on it. It's still in the boat and working 9 years
later and it cost $40 at the time.

I'm sorry, but I don't remember the name of the place, but my experience
was that a reputable shop should be able to handle this job.

Dave

PS. I could get my started out without lifting the engine either. I'm glad
    you found a way.

Re. .18, that's good news, though I am sure that a rebuild today will be more 
than $40. Just a little bit:-)  But it has to be less than $381. I wonder how
far gone a starter can be and still be rebuilt. This one must be quite badly
rusted for it to act the way it does.

I've got a question Dave, your P.S. sounds like something is missing or that
there is one word to many. Did you mean to say you couldn't get my starter out..
or you could get the starter out without lifting the engine?

Oh, yeah, and re. .14; Yeah Rick, I've thought about the decision to keep the
boat a lot lately. I figure that had I got another one I'd have just as many
problems, just different ones for the type and age of boat I could have afforded.

john

    On a related topic, anyone know what "routine" maintenance is required
    for starters?  I.E. Lubrication/grease and where does it go??
    Doug

    If memory serves, slow cranking (or none) can be caused by bad brushes
    and/or bad or poor bearings and bushings on the starter moter shaft.
    The parts to fix a starter, assuming the field and armature are
    OK, cost relatively little, so a rebuild should be under $100 bucks.
    If the field or armature are gone, you'll probably be best with
    a rebuilt.  
    
    Good luck
    
    Carl

John,

The PS should have read:

PS. I could not get my starter out without lifting the engine either. I'm glad
    you found a way.

I was in too great a hurry this morning...

Good luck with with your boat.

I've gotten a lot of good years out of my '74 Sea Ray with the 188, though
its been in storage for the past 2 seasons. I would be glad to discuss my
experiences with this engine if it would be of any help to you.

Dave

    Rebuilding a starter should not be expensive, most times its the
    Bendix, for this, it cost me $50, 2 seasons ago. The symptoms
    for this provblem are: the starter motor spins, but won;t engage
    the ring gear, not turning over the engine.
    If your starter motor would not turn at all, it could be
    brushes, or the windings, in either case it won't be bad
    in comparison to a new one.
    
    On the question of lubrication of a starter motor,,
    
    ANSWER::::   DON'T
    
    Leave it alone, lubricants tend to gather dirt crud and
    etc. fouling the bendix.
    
    YOUR BEST BET, if your interested in preserving the life
    expectancy of the Starter and Alternator is to take them
    off in the fall and store them in a warm dry place.
    
    When a boat is covered in the off season, the cover becomes
    a solar trap, warmer during the day, cooler at night,
    forming lots of condensation, that isn't good for your
    starter or alternator.
    
    I know its a pain, but you asked........
    
    
    Jim.

    
    
    	I just had problems with my starter slow cranking. It's from
    	a Merc 120 and cost $30 to have it rebuilt. Works excellent
    	so far. I got it done at G & L rebuilders in Millbury Ma.
    
    	Len
    

    
    
    re: .17 
    
    
           > One place I noticed, but have no experience with is:
           >
           >         Dracut Alternator service
           >         1901 Bridge St.
           >         Dracut, Ma
           >
           >         452-2735
           >
    
    
     I just had Dracut Alternator rebuild the starter for a '72 Johnson
    50hp outboard.  $40 and it was ready the same day that I brought it in.
    Works like a champ now.
    
    Kevin
    
    

    
    Try it yourself first. Starters are easy to rebuild. Usually all that
    is needed is a brush kit ($7-$9) and a little molly lube.
    
    I rebuilt 2 badly rusted and worn starters this spring. Both are
    running great with only $15 dollars invested total.
    
    If you take your time it may take 75 minutes to do the job right.

	I know this note is old but it helped me determine my starter
	motor problem last week. It's funny how the price ranges from
	place to place for parts? Seems like there's a lot of crooks
	out there.

	Anyway, United Auto Electric in Fitchburg did a great job!
	One day service for $65.

	United Auto Electric
	109 rear river street
	Fitchburg, MA.
	(508) 342-2493