Conference vicki::boats

    I'm not being funny, nor am i joking.
    
    DON'T BUY ONE. Your spec's have not yet gone to manufacturing.
    
    Jim.

RE: .0
>> I am considering purchasing a boat and it will be my first one. I have
>>  no prior experience with use/ownership.
    
>> My intended use; Take the family out for a short cruise. Park it.
>> May be sleep over. Do some fishing. Occasionaly have some friends on
>> board as well.
    
>>  Constraints: Simple and Sturdy boat requiring minimal maintenance.
>>  Doesnt burn much gas. Easy to handle. Has nice looks. Has private head.

I think that what reply .1 is trying to say in a roundabout way, 
is that you probably will not be able to meet every one of your 
requirements.  Especially for a beginner with size, budget, fuel 
mileage and handling limitations.

The boats you mentioned will be fine as far as sleeping over, cruising,
fishing etc.  I doubt that either one of them is going to have
simple maintenance, be easy on fuel, or be easy to handle for a 
beginner.

That last item would be my biggest concern.  A 23 foot boat with 
260 hp is not a toy.  It requires some skill and experience to
maintain, handle, and launch.  My suggestion is to start out a
little smaller, get some experience, take a Coast Guard Auxiliary
or Power Squadron course, and move up in a couple years.

I'm sure others may disagree, but that is my $.02 worth.

Rick W.

    
    Thanks for the suggestions. Pl keep them coming.
    
    I am taking the USCG course. I would appreciate any additional info on
    the Power Squadron Course.

	Somewhat along the lines of .2  - - - you have some 
conflicting requirements (wants, needs, whatever).  Its tough to sit 
down and prioritize them and so very easy to talk yourself upscale on 
the grounds that a bigger boat now will be less expense in the long 
run because you can forgo at least one round of the trade up game.
If I were doing it again I'd get a used boat that came as close as 
possible to my most important wants, use it for a year or two and see 
how things turn out.  Its much easier to work from a known base, at 
that point you can decide if you want to (for example) go to a bigger 
boat so that you can go into larger lakes or the ocean, or if you want 
a smaller boat so that you can trailer it to a lot more (small) lakes. 
Do you want more power for speed, or less for economy ?  More room for 
sleeping over, or less size for a cheaper slip and winter storage ?
Etc.  Tough decisions, but a little easier once you've had a boat for 
a couple of years and have a reference point.

	Reg	{Yeah, I know - "Undecided" is my middle name (-: }

    
    	I agree with Rick W. (.2) 100%
    	Before I bought my second boat I had a 16' with a 80 Merc.
    	for 10 years. My second boat is a 21' 175 hp i/o cutty.
    	It took me a little while to get use to 1. a larger boat 2.
    	an i/o 
    	I have been lucky so far with no damage to the boat ...
    	For someone with no experience going to a 23 ft
    	is difficult, a 23 ft does not handle like a 15 ft.
    
    	Just my .02
    
    
    	Mike
    

    	A lot of good advise in the previous replies. I don't totally 
    agree with the conclusions expressed however. Whether or not you start 
    large or small is an individual decision. Large boats can result in 
    large mistakes but a boat that is too small for the family might be 
    useless. 
    	You seem to be approaching the situation correctly as evidenced by
    your taking the boating course and asking for info here. If you learn
    all you can and realize your inexperience you are in better shape than
    someone who just jumps in a boat (of any size) thinking there's nothing
    to it.
    	You will make mistakes but with the right approach you should be
    able to minimize them.
    Regards,
    Paul 	 

Moved by moderator...

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Note 745.0                    LARSON 300 Contempra                    No replies
AKOV11::GRODIN                                        8 lines  21-AUG-1990 13:59
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    Am thinking of buying a LARSON 300 Contempra. Currently have a 268 SEA
    RAY. Will power the LARSON with twin 270 VOLVO Penta twin props. Any
    comments on the LARSON ? Any experiances to share with LARSON boats, in
    general ?
    
    Thanx,
    
    Stan

    
    Moved by moderator
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              <<< VICKI::SIE$DATA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOATS.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -<    Hit it!    >-
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Note 749.0                      How are Larson's                      No replies
MCIS2::MACKEY                                         7 lines   6-SEP-1990 08:44
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    I always read in here people cutting up or praising different types of
    boats and also dealers.  Well have at it.  I was looking at a Larson
    190 cuddy at Marine USA and am pretty set on purchasing it.   What's
    the general opinion on larsons from you folks and also on Marine USA.
    
    Colin
    

      I bought a Larson from Marine USA this past spring. I am quite
    pleased with the Larson. I have been around boats my entire life,
    and while Larson isn't a 'top of the line' boat; it *is* a cut above
    the low-priced boats. I would buy another one in a minute.
    
      Marine USA *seems* to be a good dealership. I say seems because
    I have not had to put them to the test. (you know, broken boat/motor)
    They deal in somewhat the same manner as a new car dealer (just not 
    quite as pronounced). The service dept gives a 10% or 15% discount on
    everything (maybe except oil) for a year to anyone who buys a boat
    there. They also told me that if there is a problem with my boat or motor
    during the season that they strive for a SAME DAY turnaround! As
    I said, I have not tested this - but it sounds good.

    				Kenny

    Couple of comments:
    
    1) The salesman I dealt with there was a typical slick salesman.  He
    tried to tell me that the reason that Bayliners aren't well thought of
    is a conspiracy on the part of the other manufacturers to cut into
    Bayliner's sales lead.  He also had a lot of facts goofed up on
    power-weight ratios etc.
    
    2) Sales are **slow**.  The boat you are looking at with a 175 I/O
    was quoted by them to me at $14.5K.  You should be able to get them down
    a *lot*.  You can get an equivalent Sunbird at Gauch Bros across the
    street for probably $11.5K.   Larson might be somewhat better quality
    but not $3K.
    
    3) The boat you are looking at does not have bow rails, just grab bars.
    The cuddy top is a nice place to hang around (at anchor or slow/idle
    speed) and the railing makes it a lot safer.   A consideration if you
    have kids.
    
    4) I believe the boat you are looking at has a captains chair and jump
    seats on either side of the motor.  This, plus my comment above (3),
    means you can only seat 5 people outside.  Again, with kids or crowds,
    this mat be a factor for you.
    

    I went back up today and got them down from 14,500  to 13,200.  
    this model has to sunlounge style (back to back) seats and the two next
    to the motor housing. 
    
    The price appears reasonable to me.  
    

    If it's a 1990 model letem' stew for awhile.  They'll knock off
    20% easily(off list).  They need to make way for alllllll that 1991 
    inventory in anticipation of the '91 boating season.
    
    /MArk

    i second   "play the game""""  let e'm hang for awhile...
    
    they need to sell the boat, more than you need to buy it from them..
    
    
    JIm.

    Sorry moderator, we'll chat over here...
    
    Kenny,
    
    That price (10k) does not include a trailer.  I didn't want one because
    I'm going to rack dock it (store it in the racks, not the water).  
    
    What about the prep., what should they be doing?
    
    Deb

    
      It still sounds good for $. As far as prep goes, boats have to be
    cleaned and the motor set up and started. Many dealers add this charge
    onto the quoted price when you are ready to sign (Just like cars). It
    varies from ~200 to ~400.
    
    				Kenny_who_loves_his_DC170

    Mine is the DC190 with the 4.3 Mercruiser.  It came with a trailer
    and all the normal options and I did pay more than 10K.  But that was
    in 91.   So I would assume the leftovers were being offered at a good
    price to free up the lot...

    I now have my Larson and *love* it.  I signed the paperwork (groan) but
    it's already been well worth it.  The joke around here is that the
    managers can now see my cruising on Lake Washington (they all have
    views onto the lake, where I boat) so I better *duck* if I don't want
    to be seen.
    
    The only problem I really have right now is that the engine is
    incredibly difficult to start when it's cold.  A boat mechanic that I
    trust told me that that's typical with the Volvo Penta 4.0 litre - what
    do you guys think?
    
    Deb

    
    Deb,
    
    My manager *lives* on the lake where we have our gumballs
    (outa work for half/all day ski parties).....buy a wig!
    
    Good luck with your Larson,
    
    Jeanne
    

    Hey, I *am* blonde - should I buy a brunette wig??
    
    He *lives* on the lake?? - yikes!!  Maybe you should periodically paint your
    boat, borrow a friend's dog, etc... :-)
    
    Thanks for the note,
    
    Deb

    
    How about redhead!  :>)  
    
    *She* lives on the lake, but she's cool.  I'd be more apt
    to get into trouble for NOT inviting her!!
    
    Jeanne
    

    Deb - I think there is probably a 50/50 chance that either your engione
    needs some time and then maybe an adjustment, or it is one of those
    engines that wants to be started a certain way and you just haven't had
    the time to find it. Give it a little time.
    
    					Kenny

    Why would a new engine be hard to start??  Hard starting could be
    caused by any number of things.  I doubt, for example, that the spark
    plugs were checked for proper gap when put in at the factory, since
    they're "supposed" to be gapped properly by the spark plug mfgr.  
    
    What I mean is, there are lots of adjustments that are rather
    arbitrary, and are either assumed correct, or done inaccurately during
    the engine assembly process.
    
    Have the dealer's mechanic check all the critical engine adjustments,
    and make sure the choke is working properly.  
    
    I'm sorry, but they're not ALL hard to start...
    
    Carl

    When I bought my Sunbird, the dealer (Gauch Bros.) missed the 
    initial setup for the motor so badly, it was obvious they never 
    touched it.  The motor was idling *way* too slowly, so I attempted
    to adjust it myself.  The idle screw was already turned in *all*
    the way, with no adjustment left.
    
    After 3 trips back to the dealer, they managed to fix that 
    particular problem.  But they never did get the motor to start
    easily, it was always hard starting when cold.  Each time I
    brought it back, they'd throw a set of muffs on it, and show
    me how it started with a quick click of the key.  There's a 
    big difference, however, in the way a motor runs on the muffs
    and the way it runs with exhaust backpressure from being in the 
    water.  Of course, they denied that, and refused to drop the 
    boat in the water and try it again.
    
    The point is, bring it back to the dealer, and have them run 
    it with the motor *in the water*. They get paid good money to 
    set these things up right, and there's a good chance that it's 
    not.
    
    Rick

    Thanks for all your input, what a great group!
    
    Now that I'm a *real* expert on my Larson (I've been out all of 4 times
    so far) I'm having much better luck with my engine.  As one of you
    sailors said, "maybe you need more time with it", that was true.
    
    The trick, as I've learned and read, is to push the throttle 3-4 times
    all the way, then start it keeping the idle fairly high.  Apparently,
    that's the trick with this particular Volvo engine.  It's only a minor
    irritation, the *real* irritation is that I have to work on a beautiful
    day :-)
    
    Deb

    
    Sorry, but that is not typical of starting a new engine.
    
    Something is still not adjusted properly....
    
    Me thinks its your carburator (sp)
    
    
    JIm

    Choke not engaging?
    

    
    Rick hit it right on the head when he spoke of getting the engine set
    IN the water. The EXACT depth of the outdrive (on I/O's and outboards)
    greatly affects the way the idle mixture must be set and also the idle
    speed. To do it right, it has to be set ON *your* boat IN the water.
    
    
    				Kenny

    
    To make it a little clearer. 
    
    The season before last, i had to buy one new carb.  and i had the
    other rebuilt.  After this, and now i move the throttle up about
    1/3rd, and hit it.  
    
    I watch other boaters pump as much as ten times before lighting off,
    and then most times they stall out.  The other nice feature
    is that the new carb has an electric choke, works very well.
    To the point i'm gonna put one on the rebuilt.
    
    On a new engine, i can see a certain amount of break-in required
    before all is well, (because things are tight) but pumping 4 times
    and having the throttle almost all the way up is not good.
    
    JIm.

    RE:24

     I have a Volvo myself and I pump it 2-3 times when cold, but I
    don't have to give it any real throttle, just enough to get it
    above idle. Starts right away... I don't think there's anything
    wrong with pumping it at least once. Isn't that required to set
    the automatic choke like done in most car motors with carburetors ??

    re:-1 How does your electric choke work ? Is it just like the
    ones on outboards (choked/not choked) ?  

    Mark.

    That's why I mentioned choke problems.
    
    Assuming marinized engines are just like 1960's car engines, one
    pump to the floor will set the choke and prime the intake manifold.
    

    
    The electric choke is actuated when the key is turned to the 
    
    "on" posotion. It retracts by heating the element.
    
    Theres no need to pump the throttle to set it. Although i do
    
    it once to prime it, if i don't it will start but sometimes 
    
    stall..   Its a relatively inexpensive conversion under $25,
    
    and it uses the coil for power, its relatively hassle free,
    
    as it doesn't hang, which can use up some fuel.
    
    Jim

re: .31
Each vehicle starts differently.  Because one may require 3 or 4 pumps
of the throttle when cold while another only requires 1, doesn't necessarily 
mean there's anything wrong with either one.

One thing to keep in mind, is that it *IS* February. I don't know where 
this boat is being used, but I'm ass-u-ming the air isn't 85 and the water
isn't 75.  Boats are jetted, choked, and set up for *warm weather* use.
I would expect that any boat that's set up for optimal running condition in
summer is going to be harder to start in cooler temps.

I'm sure the choke could be set richer and the jets fattened up so that
it starts and runs like a charm now.  Come summer, it'll be a smoke belching
pig.  I work on a lot of old outboards for people - I don't even bother to
try and tune 'em up and adjust them in the winter, because they'll run 
like crap with those same settings when the WX warms up.

If the boat is starting well with 3 or 4 pumps, I'd live with it for now,
and see if it improves in the spring.

Rick

    Thanks for the input - re. -1, you're right, it's not 85 degrees, by
    any stretch of the imagination!  I'm in Seattle, and if that's not
    enough said, the water is somewhere around 40 degrees and the outside
    temp. is ~50.  Not New England, I know, but the combination of a cold
    environment, a new engine, *and* a new owner, makes me want to give the
    engine just a bit more break-in time.  
    
    The conversation is enlightening, I wish Boeing (my customer) was this
    fun!
    
    Deb