Conference vicki::boats

    Hi herb.
    I waould stay away from heat shrink for a multitude of reasons. some
    are that:
    1) it is not reusable ( why create more pollution than we
    allready have)
    
    2) It costs a lot more and it costs every year instead of
    a one shot deal like a large tarp.
    
    3) You have to cut it up to work on the boat in the spring and if you
    get some nice early weather you can't just pull it off for one day like
    you can with a canvas cover.
    
    4) You can use a canvas cover anytime of the year to protect the boat.
    it only takes minuites to put on or take off.
    
    5) Canvas breaths: This will prevent condensation buildup which can
    destroy equiptment.
    
    6) Yes: you will need an industrial heat gun. to use shrink wrap.
    
    7) A good quality canvas cover for a 20 ft boat will only run you from
    $150 to $200.
    
                             Those are my reasons
    
                                 Walt
    
    

    
    There is an extensive article on shrink wrapping in the latest
    issue of Powerboat Reports.  This magazine accepts no advertising,
    and does not fluff over the problems they find in any products.
    
    The bottom line is that they recommend against shrink wrapping
    for many of the reasons Walt mentioned, plus a few others.  For
    outdoor storage they seemed to recommend using a supporting frame
    with a canvas or tarp.  If you'd like a copy of the report let 
    me know.
        
    Rick

    Re: .2 
    
    By the way, I've been tempted to subscribe to Powerboat Reports.
    Are they as unbiased and as knowledgeable as they indicate. 
    
    Within or across issues, do they cover a broad range of topics with a 
    minimum of expertise or do they go in to sufficient depth on a few
    topics to really understand what's up?
    
    Mitchell
                                

Powerboat Reports isn't really a magazine in the traditional sense,
because it's only about 12-14 pages, and each issue only covers 2
or 3 topics.  I'm on a trial subscription right now, but I think I 
will continue it.  The 3 or 4 issues I've received so far have been 
real interesting reading, and believe me, they're not like the other 
magazines who "never met a boat they didn't like".

In the few issues I've received some of the things they've covered: 
stainless steel hardware, electric trolling motors, shrink wrapping,
Bayliner Ciera, Cobia, Mako, and an entire issue devoted to Loran.  
On the Cobia boat they did a case history of one of their readers 
who bought one.  Interestingly, they thought the Bayliner was OK, but
absolutely crucified the Cobia and the selling dealer.

If nothing else, it's refreshing to hear another point of view.

Rick

    I would like to know what the report said about shrink wrapping
    the boat. I have had mine wrapped every season since it was new
    (1986). I have had no problem with anything on the boat other than
    using a little acetone to remove tape marks. I live down here in
    Maryland so are Winters are not as harsh as up North. It's true
    it cost more but when you put it away washed and waxed it comes
    out the same way.

	ahhhhh

	I have done  (what I think is unique) a neat thing when winterizing
	my boat.... Last year I placed a ridge board... from the windshield 
	to the transom and wrapped the whole boat and trailer with that skid
	wrap 'stuff' (it looks like a huge roll of saran wrap). It worked 
	incredibly well. I also wrapped the power head on the outboard and then
	put the cover on and wrapped the whole engine.	It was able to breath
	at the bow and stern ends and kept the whole boat dry. The snow slid
	right off and the cover was nice and taut.

	it was great... uncover it and throw it away in the spring..

	Roger_who_has_a_barn_for_my_new_boat_this_year   8^)

    I have used canvas, but had a problem when the canvas gotolder and
    would drip when the snow that stuck to it began to melt. This happened
    to be ythe year that I had to refininsh the engine cover- so I took it
    off and worked on it in the basement- I had a badly rusdted engine. the
    water dripped right on top ofthe flame arestor and ran down tyhe carb
    throat. This was a year old wengine, so I decided that was enough of
    that.
    
    What I have ended up doing is making a simple "girder that runs for and
    aft. I made mine like an I beam.The center part is 1/2" plywood 6"wide.
    where the pieces but, I simple put a reinforcing plate of 1/2" on one
    side. the top and bottom are 1x4 furring strips. put the whiole thing 
    together with wood screws and put om a coat of cuprinol. It's very
    light and quite strong.
    
    to support this beam, I rigged up two frames that look like a big
    trinagle with a slot at the top. one sits on the deck just aft of the
    bulhead and the other sits on the gunwales. They have 12"x12" 
    plywood pads on the corners so the can stand unsupported. 
    the slot inthe top lets me drop in the I beam and now i have a beam
    running fore and aft.
    
    To supportthe tarp, I put in a row of screw eyes down the inside of the
    I beam. I take some more frring strip, crew in a small hoof, and simply
    reach up and connect the wood strip to the I beam with the other end
    lying on the gunwale. I now have what looks like a framed gable roofed
    house.
    
    I use one of these blue polyethylene tarps( they are light, snow
    slides off, they are waterproof and cheap). I take old milk/bleach
    bottles filled with sand. I put the tarp over the frame, put a couple of
    lines on to keep itstationary, and then hang the bottles from the
    grommets in the tarp. I finish up by taking a line from the bow eye to
    the ski tows on the transom and that keeps the whole thing snug. The 
    bottles act as weights to keep the tarp taught. I also run a line from
    the forward end of the beam to the bow. My baot is 22', and the beam is
    16'- it works out just right. 
    
    The whole thing takes me about 1/2 hr or less to put up, the tarp is
    waterproof, and in the spring , the tarp can be removed ibn a jiffy so
    I can work on the boat on those nice days. the tentshape keeps a good
    airflow through and I have  no prblem with condensation. And it's
    cheap.  I had all the materilas except the tarp and hooks and eyes
    just laying around. It only took me a couple of hours to  build the
    whole thing.
     
    One advantage I have found is that from the deck to the bottom of the
    beam is about 6'+. I can stand up in the center, and the blue
    polyethylene lets quite a bit of light in- I get in and do stuff like
    electrical and engine work without ever taking it off. Asmall electric
    heater and I am happy as a clam!  As soon as the ice is out- I'm
    usually in the water, provided the marina has a float in. I've managed
    to get in as early as the first week in april, but always by the first
    of May. I have never had a condensation problem since <i started using
    this method.
    
    
     Plastic shrink wrap is expensive, you seal up the boat and
    possible(read probable) condensation problems, you can't put it on and
    off to work on the boat, and worst of all- the plastic is an
    environmental issue. Frankly I get disguted when I see that stuff
    floating in the harbor and/or blowing around the yard in the spring. 
    
    
    My method is cheap ( I 'llbet the cost is less thana shrink wrap AND
    it's reusable. and provideds ventilation and easy acess to the
    interior.
    
    By the way- don't use water in the milk jugs. I did the first time-
    they froze in the winter. In the spring, the water melted. When the
    water froze, it exapnded and cracked the plastic. When the water
    melted, it ran out, and without the weight to keep the tarp taught and
    weighed down- the first good wind storm blew it off. 
    
    
    my 2�
    
    Dick
    
    
    

    Moved by moderator
    
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                            -<     PowerBoats     >-
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Note 524.0                     No "Shrink" For Me                     No replies
USCTR2::HWYDOM                                       13 lines  27-SEP-1989 14:30
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    Thanks for the advice.  Based on the majority of the replies I'll
    stick with the tarp.  The tarp I've used in the past is one of those
    blue polyetelene types and I've never had a problem.  Except for some 
    fading it's in as good shape as when I bought it.  I'll make a new
    rigepole frame work running from the top of the windsheild to the
    transom (new boat this year), and stick with my past method.  Don't
    want to risk getting condensation.  BTW the boat will also be
    protected under the tarp by a full mooring cover (windsheild to stern).
                            
    Based on the number of boats I see wrapped in outside storage areas,
    it seemed like the right thing to do.  I'm glad I asked.
    
    Herb

    Moved by moderator.
    
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Note 159.76                      Winterizing ??                         76 of 76
MR4DEC::FBUTLER                                      18 lines  13-OCT-1992 10:21
                        -< Cover or "Shrink-wrap"...? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    O.k., O.k., so I'm finally start to "think" about the fact that I won't
    be getting much more use out of my boat this season.  Lot's of good
    info in here on what to do, but my question is this:
    
    I don't have a cover for my boat (i've been using a tarp).  My boat
    will be stored outside this winter, and I'm trying to figure out wether
    I should by the stuff to "shrink wrap" it, or if I should invest in a
    "trailerable" cover.  The covers I have seen seem to run about
    $90-$120, and I haven't investigated the "shrink-wrap" yet (as I said,
    I'm just starting to give in to fall/winter).
    
    Which way should I go?  Is it an absolute NO-NO to store outside?  I
    see alot of boat yards that stack&wrap, and can't see paying them the
    bucks when I have room in my own yard.  
    
    
    Jim
    

Jim,
FWIW, for winter storage I wouldn't use either material you mentioned,
shrink wrap or a trailerable cover.

I'd stay away from shrink wrap for the reasons mentioned in previous 
replies to this note. It's expensive, non-reusable, environmentally
unsound, etc.  You also have no (or difficult) access to the boat if
you need to get in during the winter.  And most trailerable covers are 
meant to be breathable (i.e. some leakage, especially from pooled water),
and don't provide the support you need for snow and ice.

For the cost of a single shrink wrap, you can buy a good tarp and build
a support system to go over the boat.  For my 17' Sunbird cuddy, I built
two A-frames about 7' tall, with a notch at the top so that a 2"x4" can
rest on it. Then I used two 2"x4"x10's, and bolted them together in the 
middle to create an 18' long span that is supported at each end by the 
A-frames.  In the middle I nailed a vertical 2x4 to the span, which rested 
on the boat's floor to prevent the span from sagging.

I then tied some twine in a zig-zag pattern from the middle of the span
down to the trailer or any other suitable hooks or rails on the boat, 
back and forth for the whole length of the boat to provide some extra
support for the tarp.  Then I covered the whole thing with a good blue
plastic tarp, tied it underneath with clothesline rope, and tied the ends 
like a "flap".  When complete, it resembles a large "tent" over the boat.
At each end, air is allowed to flow in under the A-frames, and with the 
tarp up off the boat air is free to flow right through for good ventilation.
I never had a problem with dampness or mildew.  Another benefit over shrink
wrap or a trailerable cover is that by un-tying the flap at one end, you can 
climb into the boat to check on things or even work on the boat comfortably 
on warm sunny days.

I used this method for 3 years with no winter damage to the boat whatsoever.
The boat's now sold, but it's nearly new condition had a definite impact
on resale value.  Unless I had unlimited garage or barn space, I'd continue 
to store the boat this way and save the indoor space for something more useful.

Rick

   Dittos to the previous reply!!!

   Even if your A-frame is not as high, you can easily go out after heavy
snow fall and using a broom, sweep the bulk of the snow off the tarp to help
keep the tarp from stretching, or tearing.

  The only "downside" I noticed was that my cat liked to climb into the boat
to sleep.  It was nice and warm during the day, and out of the wind at night.
She preferred the boat over the barn.  Getting the cat-hair off the carpets in
the spring was a minor nuisance.


Al

    I'll be using Rick's technique this winter (unless I can get the
    neighbor to let me put it in the un-used stall of their two car garage
    in exchange for plowing their driveway.)  If you properly winterized
    the boat, it will do it no harm being outside.  In fact the dry, cold
    outside winter air may be better for it than being inside in a warmer,
    more humid garage.  I spent a little more for a heavier duty silver
    colored tarp from the Northern Hydraulics catalog.  It is made with
    more UV protection and is advertised to last much longer than the
    standard bright blue tarps that I find are only good for a year or two.
    It cost me about $30 for a 20' x 16' (maybe bigger) for my 15 footer.
    Wayne

    Jim, one more thing that I forgot to mention.  Even if you don't use a
    trailerable cover during the winter, you should be using one at all
    times during the summer, especially on sunny days. (Unless you're using
    the boat, of course. It's hard to see where you're going if you don't
    take it off first!)  The sun will do a real good job of making your
    boat look old ahead of it's time.  I varnished the deck of my boat 3 or
    4 years ago and it still looks fresh.  It's worth the $90 - $120
    (sounds cheap?) to me.
    Wayne

    I agree with .10,  I used my trailer cover during winter storage
    and it tore from ice build-up.  I always attempted to remove snow
    but all it took was to be away for one weekend unattended.
    
    Rick,  Do you want to sell your "A" frame??
    

I have one thing to add to my previous description of building a winter
tent for the boat.  With the setup I had for my Sunbird, the A-frames 
rested on the ground, and were secured in place against the bow and stern 
of the boat.  The drawback of this was that any settling of the boat when 
the blocks supporting the trailer sunk into the ground, would cause the 
tarp to tighten in some places and loosen in others.  Once, a few days 
after covering it, heavy rain caused one of the trailer blocks to sink 
and tip over. I had to spend an hour or two re-rigging the whole cover,
No fun!

I'd recommend building the A-frames so that they rest inside the boat 
and/or attach to the trailer.  This way, the boat position can be adjusted 
or even moved around the yard without having to re-do the whole cover.

Wayne mentioned the lifespan of the blue plastic tarps - I managed to get
3 years out of my last one, but by the end of the last winter the boat was
covered in a blue plastic dust, and the tarp was getting pretty thin.  The
extra bucks for a better and more UV resistant one is probably well worth it.

Rick

    	I built my bracing with an upright support from the winch stanchion
    on the front of the trailer and kind of a saddle that sat on the motor
    with a ridge support made from 2 1x6 boards screwed together.  Worked
    great, and in the spring I just hooked up the trailer and towed the
    whole rig onto the driveway to dismantle it.  This way I wasn't
    slogging around in the springtime mud to get the boat ready.
    	I put my mooring cover on the boat (it's open at the motor well)
    and put everything else on over that with about a 1 ft. air space
    between the cover and the tarp.  A couple plastic tubs full of
    mothballs to keep the critters out and it worked out fine.  I plan to
    use the same system this year...  Of course I have been pushing on my
    wife to agree that we NEED a "shed" big enough to put the boat in!!
    
    					B.C.

    I just looked at a boat under a "tent" where the guy built the
    tent A-frames out of PVC drain pipe and fittings.  Neat idea, weather
    resistant, no sharp edges.
    

Hi Colin,
Sorry, after I sold the boat I dismantled the A-frames and used the wood
for something else.  As I said in my revious reply, having large A-frames
that rested on the ground wasn't the ideal setup anyway.  When I build 
the supports for my Feathercraft this year, I'm gonna go with something
different.  As B.C. says, make 'em a little smaller, with the rear one 
resting on the floor or motorwell of the boat, and the front one attaching 
to the trailer tongue.  Having them attached directly to the boat and
trailer rather than free-standing should work much better.

I've seen PVC used also as Jim mentioned.  But IMHO, a ridge board and 
A-frames built with 2x4's is easier and cheap(er) to make, and can be easily 
dismantled for summer storage. I never ended up with any sharp corners that 
tore the tarp.  By using carriage bolts to make a ridge board from two 10' 
long 2x4's, you can easily seperate the ridge board for storage too.  PVC 
by itself isn't real strong, and requires an extensive gridwork to get the 
strength needed to support snow.  I think the PVC sytem also requires that 
you glue everything together, making storage difficult.

Rick

    
      I've stored my Larson for the last two winters with the
    inside-the-boat variation that Rick mentioned. It's very easy to use,
    keeps the snow load off the windshield and other less strong parts of
    the boat, promotes good ventilation (Which is *critical* for a stored
    boat!) and is easy to get under for springtime work (It gets nice and
    warm even on cold days with the sun on it).
    
    				Kenny

	I agree with all the advise given so far, and would add some additional
suggestions and experience.  I store outside in a boat yard on Buzzards Bay.
When I bought the boat 4 years ago it came with a heavy piece of canvass and
an A-frame and ridge pole support set up which is still very servicable today.
Out in the open the life span of the blue tarps seems to be about 2 months,
but if they were not exposed to the windnad UV they may last longer.
	I would suggest that when using a tarp to cover a boat to not depend
on the grommets as tie points to hold the tarp down.  They seem to take the most
strain and be the first points to rip out.  Instead, once the tarp is over the
boat wrap the tarp with "tie lines" around the entire boat to hold the tarp
to the boat.  I use tie down ropes about every 3 or 4 feet over the length of
the boat.  When I got the boat I bought a "roll" (1000 ft) of "tie down Rope"
from a chandlery in New Bedford.  I re-use the individual ropes year after
year.  There is still rope on the original spool, which I have used for all
sorts of other odd jobs.  When using tie down ropes I would suggest NOT tying
them to jack stands or trailer, but to their opposite end under the boat.
In the case of jack stands a good sized canvass can exert a lot of pull in
the wind, and in the case of tying to rough or sharp metal there can be a
severe chafe factor.
	Also I would suggest that the use of old pieces of carpet under the
the tarp at points of stress (ridge pole, sharp corners of windshields, etc.)
will prolong the life of the cover.

	Rick 

    re: .20
    
    If you're having problems with eyelets pulling out of the tarp
    because there are too few of them, Northern Hydraulics sell a 
    kit to install additional eyelets in any plastic tarp.  The kit
    includes a bunch of eyelets and an installation tool.
    
    Rick

    I use a simular method as those previously described.  The way that I
    tie it down is to use bungee cords with hookd on each end. (you can by
    a package of assorted sizes in discount stores).  The bungee cords seem
    to work better than rope because they expand/contract with temperature
    and load and keep the tarp tight.
    
    Gordon

    As Rick mentioned DONT use the grommets. 
    
    I store my boat in the same yard as Rick, and we both agree
    on the above.  However if you store yours in your yard,
    or away from the waterfront, you may be able to use the grommets.
    
    The whole idea here is to cover it once. ITS no fun to have to
    go down in the middle of winter and screw around with a cover.
    
    JIm

    I think I bought a bubble pak grommet kit from Bradlees or Richs in the
    spring when they put the camping equipment out.  The grommets made of
    brass? copper?, not aluminum as on the cheap blue tarps.  The aluminum
    ones are too soft, and bend to a sharp point, which rips out of the
    tarp.  If you install brass ones in their place, plus a bunch more
    around the tarp, they should hold better.  
    
    I've also tried the plastic grommets, but they don't work well.
    
    Carl

    More thoughts:
    
    I extended the useful life of those cheap blue truck tarps by: A)
    parking my boat in a relatively shady spot, which might be hard to find
    if your yard has only deciduous trees and no strategic evergreens; B)
    using an older UV-damaged tarp over a younger and stronger one to
    protect the latter from the sun.
    
    Each year I took time to tie the cover on very carefully, evenly
    tensioned and tied with tautline hitches I could easily adjust anytime
    I noticed a bit of slack.  Using relative thin nylon line I could
    stretch a bit, I never had a tarp loosen enough to damage itself.  
    
    If you prefer the shock absorber method, consider getting a few old
    bicycle inner tubes and splitting them into 2-3 pieces by cutting
    *lengthwise* around the circumference (cutting around the valve to
    remove it.)  You get ultra-cheap expendable ~3' elastic bands which can
    be tied into your tarp system.  BTW, I use those same bands all the
    time on my roofrack to fasten boats, boards, bikes and anything else so
    it won't loosen or rattle around (always adding one or two ropes for
    back-up security.)
    
    John.

<    If you're having problems with eyelets pulling out of the tarp
<    because there are too few of them, Northern Hydraulics sell a 
<    kit to install additional eyelets in any plastic tarp.  The kit
<    includes a bunch of eyelets and an installation tool.

    Not only do the eyelets pull out, but did you ever notice that they are
seldom in exactly the location you want them?

   One solution is to use old tennis balls and gallon plastic jugs filled
with water.

   Whereever you need a "tie-down" place a tennis ball under the tarp and bunch
the tarp around the backside of the ball and secure with a piece of line. Using
this as an anchor point you can either tie off to someplace solid (trailer,
stakes, the other side of the boat, etc) or you can tie it to a gallon jug
filled with water.  The jug of water/ice will keep the tarp taut, but will
give enough to accomodate snow load/no snow-load conditions or stiff wind
conditions.

   The comment about making all the sharp edges (ends of 2x4's etc) is well
taken, those blue tarps can take alot of strain as long as you don't start a
tear someplace........  Use rugs, rags, foam rubber, anything that will soften
the strain points.

Al

    Moved by moderator.
    
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Note 1031.0               Protecting boat during winter               No replies
POCUS::BOESCHEN                                      12 lines  22-NOV-1992 05:47
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    I keep my boat on it's trailer during the winter outside. It is the
    1st new boat I have owned. For the 2 years I've had it, it's been
    shrink wrapped. Does this really buy me anything? The boat has a
    custom canvas cover which protects it very well during non-winter
    months.
    
    Any comments?
    
    FYI- 19ft boat- costs aprox $125 to shrink wrap.
    
    Thanx,
    Todd

              <<< VICKI::SIE$DATA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOATS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Powerboats >-
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Note 522.28                  Shrink Wrap Info Needed                    28 of 28
CARTUN::OLSALT::DARROW "Warm weather, a cool breeze" 46 lines  13-MAY-1993 15:05
            -< BOAT US  CARBON IMPREGNATED BLACK TARP WITH  EXTRAS >-
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This past winter I bit the bullet and spendt the extra $'s for one of the
UV resistant Black Tarps.

Since I have a 22 foot Sail boat, and the mast is stored resting on the
bow pulpit, a strut from the cabin top and a crutch in the aft end of the
cockpit, I have an instant frame. 

I remove the life lines and run about ten lines from either the trailer
or fittings on the boat up over the rig pole(mast). Several of these make
a number of turns around the mast to prevent side ways movement.

The new tarp came with several features that I like.

About a dozen figure 8 loops with one end larger. the inside of this
larger end is molded as a removeable disk. Much like the tennis ball
method, the disk is placed on the inside of the tarp and the trap wrapped
around it. On  the outside, the larger end of the figure eight is placed
over the tarp and disk and this is slid to the smaller end. You now have
'grommet' where ever you want it. Even at a fold or several feet in form
the edge.  I am sure these gadgets must be available seperately.

The other feature is the along each edge at about every foot there is a
semi circle cut out where you can get at the line that runs inside the
folded seam. When you attach your tie down line to this exposed line it
cause the tarp to 'gather' along the curves and ends up in much 'snugger'
fit. No loose flaps to slap in the wind.

Since my mast is longer that the boat and I invested in an even longer
tarp and using the figure eight grommets I was able to fold the excess
tarp material back to the sides of the boat and leave a narrow opening
under the overhang for great ventilation. I only have to release 2 lines
and I have access to the boat.

Of course the black tarp causes quite a but of heat even on a cold
winters day. 

This last fall we had to haul on a rainy after noon and got a fair amount
of moisture in the cabin. Damp coushins, carpet, etc. With the forward
hatch open about 3 inches and the top hatch board left out, the inside of
the boat was comletely dry in less than two weeks.

When it snows I just brush off the heaviest and let the sun melt the
rest.

This tarp was just over double the price, but if at the end of 5 years I
dont have black or blue poly dust all over the boat, it will be well
worth it.

A thought about shrink wrap. Not only will it do a great job of keeping
moisture out of the boat, It will also do an even better job of keeping
moisture in and what boat does not have SOME moisture in it at the end of
the season.

Fred
Whose-time-has-come-to-have-to-paint-the-house-before-he-plays-with-the-boat.

You can bet this will be one of the quickest paint jobs on record.