Conference vicki::boats

    I have freshwater cooling on my boat with a PCM 270 in it. It your
    going to run in Salt and its not and outboard FWC is the ONLY way to
    go. Otherwise corrosion will eat your engine! No doubt about it!
    
    FWC on my PCM was a $700. option, the boats all came thru with it from
    the factory as I don't know anyone who would want one without it.
    
    Your resale value wil go to h-ll without it. Don't let the dealer
    install it as an afterthought, demand that you get one factory
    installed! That way it will be done right.
    
    BTW- 1952 Bayliner? Is that some kind of antique? or is that their
    model #?
                                      Walt
    

    Wow, 1952! Well, most of their model numbers are 4-digit, perhaps
    it's a 19 foot cuddy?
    
    Anyway, if it's your first boat, don't get one that old!!
    
    Tally-ho,
    
    Ray.

    Let's put it this way, are you willing to pay $500 to $700 for fresh
    water cooling to double the life of your engine(s)?  It will at least
    do that.                        

    
      FWC does NOT alter the boat in any way. It is installed into the
    engine's cooling system. Once installed, only the exhaust manifolds
    and a heat-exchanger ever touch salt water. 
      I doubt very much that a boat yard has their OWN FWC system for
    your engine. Even if it is installed afterward it should be a
    factory unit. These systems are also VERY easy to install (provided 
    you have a boat which allows for reasonable access around the engine) 
    so you could even order the kit (yes, it would be a kit from the
    factory) and do it yourself.
       In any case it is definitely worth it! 
     
   					Kenny

    
    Add another vote for FWC - however, if you need to save the $$$ AND 
    you're going to trailer the boat, you can flush the motor each time
    you pull it out.
    
    Leave it in for just a few days...and work has begun on eating the
    motor.
    
    Also, it more than doubles engine life...probably a four fold increase
    is more like it.
    
    

    Two examples on FWC vs no FWC
    
    1. My boat has twin 454 FWC and has been in the water five years
    (salt of course) These are straight drive inboards. I have had my
    heat exchanger rust out and repaired once in year four.
    2. My friends boat is a 1965 yes 65 Chris with twin 327 Chev. RAW
    WATER COOLED - ORIGINAL ENGINES. Yes rusty water comes out when
    you start it up but it runs great.
    
    This seems to invalidate all the claims of FWC. We both moor in
    the same marina and this is Seattle so we don't pull our boats in
    the winter.
    A mechanic once told me the real reason for fresh water cooling
    is related to operating temperature which effects economy and power.
    Now here is a real life case that ought to cause some real
    discussion!!!

    There is another alternative for folks with I/O's who leave their craft in
    salt water but don't have FWC.   
                                                     
    Fresh water flush kits are available that allow you to flush
    the engine with fresh water at dock side.  They are relatively
    inexpensive and easily installed.   Admittedly not as effective
    as FWC, but it allows you to flush out the salt water and leave
    the engine full of fresh water inbetween use.
                                                 
    I used to flush my Merc I/O at dockside with the flush adapter
    that mounts on the water intake port on the lower leg of the
    I/O.   Not the neatest solution but it worked well.  Simply raise
    the I/O all the way out, and slide the adapter on.  Again, you
    need fresh water available at the dock

    
    The boat in .0 is a 1952. If this engine has been used in freshwater it 
    is probably not terribly corroded, but very worn out it it has not been
    replaced. I would not spend the $550 on it if it were my boat.
    
    THe price sounds pretty good- IF that's installed.
    
     If you are going to put in FWC, then I would recommend the after
    market kits-Sen-Dure in L.I seems to be the most popular and you can
    get a 20% discount if you order through Defender Industries.
    
     THe Factory kits( kits furnished by the engine mfr) tend to be
    overpriced as retrofits- SEnDUre makes the majority of these anyway, so
    yoyu are best to deal with them directly.
    
     It is usually the manifolds and exhaust elbows or risers that get
    eaten out in Salt water- both Barr Marine and OSCO make replacement 
    manifolds, risers, and exhaust elbows at about 1/2 the factory prices.
    
    I remove my exhaust elbows and clean the crud out every year- I have 
    73 OMC with the old "two pass" manifolds with very narrow passages.
    After removing the exhaust elbows, the water passages are staright
    through- a steel rod with the end flattened  chucked up in an electric
    drill. I clean the junk out, blow it out with air and I'm all set. I
    clean up the elbows with a lot osf swaeat and frutration.
    
     Cleanig upthe water passages yearly can greatly extend the life of 
    the exhaust parts. Most water cooled exhaust component failures I have
    seen over the last 30 years have been from freezing or from plugging. Once
    in a while I have seen a rust through- but the latter has been most of
    what I have observed. and once a component, like and exhaust elbow or
    riser gets plugges- that part is usually history.
    
     Marien engines , even if salt water cooled , will last a long time if
    given reasonable care. FWC for my v-8  would run me about $400 and
    change, plus installation. A new set of manifolds ( BARR- after
    market), will run a little under $400. I should expect at leats 10 yrs
    out of the manifolds. Even with FWC, the exhauist elbows are Salt water
    cooled and will have to be replaced.
    
     I can show you a friend's boat- 1969  with a mercruiser 120 I/O-
    had to replcae the exxaust riser for the first time last year- this
    boat has spent all it's life in Salt Water- but one look at the engine
    will give you an idea of how meticulous the owner is about maintaing
    the engine- he cleans out the exhaust system every and- he makes sure
    the anodes he has installed in the block are replaced anually, as I do.
    
     Unfortunately, there seem to be a lot of boat owners who don't
    understand the requirement for scheduled maintenence- particularly in
    the cooling system. I check both the raw water feed pump[ and the raw
    water circulating pump, manifolds, elbows, hoses, and zinc anodes
    at annual haul out- I usually have to replace the zincs annually.
    cathodic protection (ZINCS) can go a long way in preventing problems.
    I have 2 Zincs in the block, one in the water pump, nd an external zinc
    to protect the I/O- the original manifolds went 13 years.
    
    FWC has a maintenence issue associated with it, and some of the "el
    cheapo" plate type heat exchangers are very marginal- I have a freind
    who tore the FWC( factory equipped)  with a plate tyope heat exchanger
    out of his Volvo I/O beacuse it was constantly fouling and plugging
    I was unimpressed. The FWC with  the tube and plate heat excahngers
    are much more rugged( and expensive) and can be quickly disassemvbled
    and cleaned.
    
     With heat exchangers, the cooling efficiency is much lower. the rayte
    of heat rejection is a function of temperature difference. THe salt
    water has to pick up heat from 180 degree fresh water and a lot of salt
    ter flow and surface are a of the heat exchanger is needed- which
    translates as sensitivity to even a small amount of plugging, fouling,
    or a slowly deteriorating water pump. 
    
     The bootom lime is that FWC will not eliminate all of the cooling
    problems/corrosion that can be expected. Also expect more maintenance-
    on an inboard- you have an extra pump with hoses, belts, etc- as well
    as a heat exchanger,perhaps and oil and transmission cooler as well.
    
     If you insist on FWC- I recommend after market- insist on a tube and
    shell heat exchanger such as those provided bySen-Dure, etc.
      
     

RE: Note 395.8     -< why FWC on a older engine? >-

>>  The boat in .0 is a 1952. If this engine has been used in freshwater it 
>>  is probably not terribly corroded, but very worn out it it has not been
>>  replaced. I would not spend the $550 on it if it were my boat.


I think there's a misunderstanding here.  Aren't we talking about a *new*
Bayliner here, a model 1952?

Rick W.