Conference vicki::boats

    
    I'VE DONE SOME LIMITED BUSINESS WITH BOB GAGNON (THE OWNER) - THESE
    COMMENTS APPLY ONLY IF HE'S STILL OWNS THE MARINA.
    
    THEY SEEM TO HAVE SATISFIED OWNERS. THEY'RE A LITTLE PRICEY, WHICH
    IS THE GENERAL RULE FOR DEALERS ON WINNI, BUT THIS SEEMS TO RESULT
    IN RELATIVELY HAPPY OWNERS.
    
    IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO BUSINESS WITH BOB WITH AN UNDERSTANDING THAT
    HE'S YOUR ONLY ACCESS TO THE LAKE, THE PRICE WILL GO UP...IF YOU
    DON'T NEED HIS ACCESS, BUT WOULD BE USING IT ANYWAY, YOUR LEVERAGE
    GOES UP AND THE PRICE SLIDES DOWN.
    
    BOTTOM LINE - HE'S BEEN THERE A WHILE AND I'VE HEARD NO COMPLAINTS
    FROM HIS BUYERS AND/OR HIS SLIP RENTERS (OTHER THAN THE COVE'S WATERS
    BEING FILTHY - AND THE &^%*&^ ROCK IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS COVE)
    
    

    Bob Cristiano knows alot about Silver Sands... you might call him.
    
    jim

    Thank you for the feedback.  We still haven't fully decided on whether
    to do the trade this Spring or later in the year, but I'm sure it
    will be with them as they are the only Checkmate dealership around
    (that we know of anyway).
    
    Thanks again,
    Sonia

    
    re: Sonia,
    
    	There is a Checkmate dealer down here. Forrest Marine
    in Tynsboro carries Checkmate and Correct Craft although
    I really can't say anything about their service since I
    have no experience with it.
    
    Rick

    Rick,
        
    For some reason I always forget about them- probably because they
    don't have much of a selection.  There is also a place in 
    Newburyport- which we've never been to.  I guess we just have our
    heart set on a place on Winnipesaukee as we would have it up there
    most of the time if not all.
    
    Thanks for the reminder though!
    Sonia

	Hi folks,

	It looks like I'll be in the market for a small boat when the
	prices come down in late winter early spring. And I couldn't find
	an explicit note on Russo's so this one looked like a close match
	as far as a title goes...

	The wealth of information available in this conference is truly amazing.

	Thanks to all of you ...

	Now, about the only dealer I've seriously been to is Russo's in
	Medford Ma. They seem to mainly deal in new Sunbirds and Whalers,
	at least that's all they have in their showroom...

	How are they as a dealer ? Are they (relatively) honest, how
	is their maintenance dept., etc ? Before I buy I'll definitely want to
	go to other dealers somewhere between/around there and Haverhill Ma,
	how about other recommendations ?

	How about some input on financing options ? On the small Sunbird
	I'm currently interested in (SPL 150, ~16' Bowrider) they told me
	that I can expect to get:

		- 7 yrs @15.25% with low down from Mfg	(yuck)
		- 5 yrs @13.5 with ~20% down on either a new or
		  used boat under 10k   -   better but still yucky...

	Are the interest rates really this high in general ? Must be a
	lot of folks dumping their loans....

	Those questions should do for this note and I'll try to put my
	future questions into the appropriate notes...

	Thanks again,

	 Peter.

RE: Note 328.6 

>> It looks like I'll be in the market for a small boat when the
>> prices come down in late winter early spring. 

Peter,
I think you may have your boat buying seasons mixed up.  From now until
around December is the time to buy.  The dealers are looking at the 
possibility of being stuck with a large inventory over the winter, and
also need to make room for the 90's which are already arriving.  If they
pay the storage and interest charges on their inventory all winter, you
know they'll want big $$$ for them in the spring when demand goes up.

You're in luck because the Boston In Water Boat Show is coming up the 
weekend of August 24-27 at the World Trade Center (Commonwealth Pier).
There should be a few good deals there.  Shop around!

Rick W.

RE: Note 328.7

>> It looks like I'll be in the market for a small boat when the
>> prices come down in late winter early spring. 

>I think you may have your boat buying seasons mixed up.  From now until
>around December is the time to buy.  The dealers are looking at the 
>possibility of being stuck with a large inventory over the winter, and
>also need to make room for the 90's which are already arriving.  If they
>pay the storage and interest charges on their inventory all winter, you
>know they'll want big $$$ for them in the spring when demand goes up.

	I'm really going to have to wait until like February or March...
	How much demand is there going to be then ?


>You're in luck because the Boston In Water Boat Show is coming up the 
>weekend of August 24-27 at the World Trade Center (Commonwealth Pier).
>There should be a few good deals there.  Shop around!

	I just heard about that today and I'm sure that some dealers
	will be really anxious. But, the $ just aren't there (here) yet...
	Course I will make an attempt to go though....

Thanks,
 Peter.

RE:  Note 328.8 

>> I'm really going to have to wait until like February or March...
>> How much demand is there going to be then ?

Lots.  Believe it or not February and March are about their busiest 
season for sales.  It's really not that far away from spring, (us die-
hards launch by April 15) and if you're looking for anything custom or
special order February or March may already be too late.  Since you 
mentioned a Sunbird I don't think you'll have any problems getting one
int the spring, but don't expect to beat the crowds.

Now if you're waiting 'til spring out of financial necessity, then that's
a whole 'nuther story.  We were in the same "boat" last year, and placed 
a deposit on a new Sunbird at the in-water show last summer to lock in the
price, with delivery scheduled for this past April.  It paid off for us, 
because the boat went up $500 over the winter.  Only thing is, it makes 
for a looooooooooong winter, waiting 8 months to pick up your new boat.

Good Luck!
Rick

    On the reputation of Russos:
    
    I bought my boat from them two years ago.  (15' s/s whaler)  My wife's
    firm represents Boston Whaler and when she asked the folks in Hingham
    where we should buy a boat they suggested Russos.
    
    I was treated pretty good - but I cant tell if it was because of the
    introduction.  The salesperson I delt with was Carl Betrano (sp?) who
    was a reasonable egg all things considered.
    
    I did have problems getting the motor delivered - they were late and it
    took an extra trip.  not certain whose fault it was...
    
    I didnt finance the boat or use their insurance company.  They were
    pretty good (read accomidating) when it came to little items: 
    switching lifejackets, cushons, extra lines for the stern, coastguard
    package, bearing budies and so on.  Now that I recall it, they did give
    me two rod holders ($50 ap) because the motor delivery was delayed.
    
    On service:  I think they are pretty good - but maybe expensive.  I 
    dont use them for winter-izing, but I *would* use them for a major
    problem.  Side note - the service department is very courtious.  They
    always refer to me as "Mr. Plumley" and seem - who knows if its true -
    to remember the boat. 
    
    
    		let me know if you have any other questions

February to April are the "acquisition" months for boaters and sportsmen. The
entire industry is aware of that (in fact, they call it the "acquisition period")
The time for the best deals begins in August and continues through November.

My cousin is a factory rep for several lines of sporting goods. He attends all 
the national shows, and I end up with a lot of their literature. Believe me,
they _count_ on the cabin fever syndrome during the late winter months to move
their merchandise at maximum profit.

You buy cars during January to March; you buy boats August to early December.

Art

RE:  Note 328.9, .10

	Rick,

>Now if you're waiting 'til spring out of financial necessity, then that's
>a whole 'nuther story.  

	This is the story ...  :-(

>We were in the same "boat" last year, and placed 
>a deposit on a new Sunbird at the in-water show last summer to lock in the
>price, with delivery scheduled for this past April.  

	Well, with the boat show coming up next week this idea sounds
	pretty attractive... How much of a deposit is usually expected ?
	Will they usually hold a boat for delivery in April even if they
	have your exact boat readily available ?


>	Only thing is, it makes 
>for a looooooooooong winter, waiting 8 months to pick up your new boat.

	Easy enough to say now that I don't expect that to bother me, but
	please don't ask again in the middle of a January snow storm !

	re .10
    
>    I was treated pretty good - but I cant tell if it was because of the
>    introduction.  The salesperson I delt with was Carl Betrano (sp?) who
>    was a reasonable egg all things considered.

	I've talked with him twice so far. He did seem nice enough, not
	very pushy and still helpful when I told him I probably would not
	buy this year...
    
>    I didnt finance the boat or use their insurance company.  They were
>    pretty good (read accomidating) when it came to little items: 
>    switching lifejackets, cushons, extra lines for the stern, coastguard
>    package, bearing budies and so on.  Now that I recall it, they did give
>    me two rod holders ($50 ap) because the motor delivery was delayed.

	That brings up a good question. Carl told me no boat leaves their
	yard not up to CG specs... So can I expect them (or any other
	dealer...) to outfit the boat fairly completely ? How far can you
	push these guys as far as price and options ? My current feel is
	that I'll pay ~list but you'd better load her up with goodies - is
	this accurate ?
    
>    On service:  I think they are pretty good - but maybe expensive.  I 
>    dont use them for winter-izing, but I *would* use them for a major
>    problem.  Side note - the service department is very courtious.  They
>    always refer to me as "Mr. Plumley" and seem - who knows if its true -
>    to remember the boat. 

	From what I've read in here so far it seems that I can do my own
	winterizing but they sound good for anything major.
    

	How about some feelings on the financing options the Business Mgr
	was pushing ? Are those terms normal and/or competetive ?

	Also, this business guy was really hot and heavy on an extended
	service plan for the motor. Get it for 5 yrs and roll it into
	the monthly payments, etc... (I had the hardest time getting the
	straight scoop on specific terms and conditions - all he wanted to
	talk was his monthly payments...). Now, I don't buy these plans
	for my cars but is a boat motor a different ballgame ? How much
	do they tend to go for ?

	What about extended hull warranties ? Are they available or even
	necessary ?


	Thanks again for the help (I just love notes !).

	Peter.

    A generic question on boat dealerships... (only having bought used).
    
    Does one bargain like in buying a car?   Does it depend on the model? 
    (you do expect to talk a Chevy dealer down a lot, not so for a Honda!)
    
    Knowing that you don't really "need" a boat would seem to give the
    buyer some leverage.
    
    But knowing that people fall in love with boats more than their
    utilitarian cars would give the seller some leverage (not to mention
    you don't have the wide choice of dealers you do in cars).
    
    Boat dealerships and salespeople sure have an automobile atmosphere
    about them (not really crooked, but they'll say anything they have to
    to make a sale and they're well versed on all the sales tricks in the
    book).
    
    Opinions?

    Re -1>
    	I don't consider myself a world class haggler but I did dicker 
    to some extent with the boat dealer when I bought mine. 
    	The basic package price was set by the dealer. It was an early
    season  special and it compared favorably with other specials that I 
    checked, including boat show specials. If I didn't like the dealer 
    offering the best package I would have approached the dealer of my choice 
    and see if he would meet it.
    	The haggling came with the accessories. We agreed to cut his normal 
    mark up in half. This resulted in a price that was a little higher than
    mail order but worth it to deal with only one source.
    	I feel that you can get within a few percent of the absolute best
    deal without prostituting yourself. Just approach it as a business deal
    and not a contest of swindlers. I know of too many people who sour their 
    relationship with the dealer because of their approach. I personally don't 
    think its worth it. 
    	FWIW - Discussions after the fact indicate that I did very well.
    
    Regards,
    Paul

     Like Paul, I also got my boat with a early season package price.
    I also made a few deals for accessories. I don't think you can normally
    deal for a boat the way you can for a car; my idea of the reason
    is because like motorcycles or snowmobiles - there just aren't enough
    dealers around for there to be too much competition. Maybe down
    south like Florida or S. Ca. where boating season never ends - but
    around here it seems like the dealers buy just so many boats and
    that's it. My impression is that if they don't sell it to you, then
    they'll sell it to someone else.(at least that's how it comes across)
    
       Now I'm SURE that there must be some boat dealers that get stuck
    with inventory near the end of the season and THEY'LL be willing
    to deal rather than carry the boat all winter, but there never seems
    to be one of those around when I need them. :^(
    
       I do think that with the local (NE) economy turning down the
    way it has been, there may be a LOT of good deals soon!  

    				Kenny

    Having just recently purchased a boat (used), I found that a small
    but growing percentage of new dealers weren't haggling at all. Two
    of the 15 or so dealers said the quoted price is the final price.
    Their reasoning was that they wanted return business. If they sold
    to me for less than they sold to you, and you found out, you wouldn't
    be likley to return. Another dealer had the same policy, but then
    said if $200 meant losing the deal, he would be able to work something
    out within reason. The rest of the 12 or so dealers didn't have
    what we were looking for so we didn't get past the off-the-top-of-the
    -head figure.
    
    Of the dealers that had used boats, we found most of them had felt
    as though they had cut the price to what they could tolerate already.
    Any haggling would be within $200-400 of the stated price. We found
    a few dealers with boats on consigment, they stated the asking price,
    then would follow with, "it's been here a while and I know there
    is room for negotiation." We ended up buying a consignment boat from 
    a party going thru divorce so we got a good deal, didn't get the 
    warranty however. When we picked up the boat we needed *everything*
    for it, jackets,anchors,lines,fire extinguishers, etc. The dealer
    totaled everything up to $384, he said to call it even at $300.
    
    ~jeff 

    re: .-1 
    
    Part of that argument doesn't wash.   Car dealers sell the same thing at
    different prices to different people and no one cares.  It's implicit
    that each buyer makes his own personal deal and if someone else got it
    for less it reflects poorly on the negotiating skills of the buyer, and 
    not on the dealership.
    
    Not saying this is right or wrong, but it is the way with cars.
    
    

    To get the best deal simply walk into a dealer knowing what you
    want on a cold rainy day in late sept early oct and put the cash on the
    line as they are about to shrink wrap the boat for the winter. I 
    garantee you they will be very interested to have the boat off
    their books at that time. Worked for me, saved 11K off the spring time
    add of the same boat.
    
    Bruce

Well, you can always haggle. You are free to make a counter offer and the dealer
is free to reject, accept, or make a counter-counter offer. You are free to do
the same until you have agreement or leave and try another place. If you do this
is a business-like manner you should not arouse the ire of the dealer. Dealers
are aware that people believe that a boat can be bought for less then the list
price, some will deal others won't.

Other than scarcity, I think that the other reason that there is a difference in
dealing for a boat than a car is in volume. Boat dealers sell high ticket items,
but in nowhere near the quantity as do car dealers. Like other recreational 
vehicle dealers they need a reasonable profit on each unit just to stay in 
business, since it is sometimes difficult to no when the next sale is coming.

Some ways to know what a competitive price should be:

Watch the boat show special pricing, but be aware that some of that maybe as a 
result of a dealer rebate not offererd later in the year.

Watch what the end of the season prices are.

Learn what a competitive product sells for. Even if you really want a 22' Sea
Ray, it is interesting to find out what competive products sell for. Use that
for leverage.

john

    My boat-buying experience is in Seattle...
    
    We found tha the best prices on new boats were *always* when the
    Seattle Boat Show was running.  I thought this was wierd, but it seemed
    to hold up, year after year. Fall prices are better than spring/summer
    prices, and early winter was good, too.  But the boat show (in late
    January) was best.
    
    We bought our Sea Ray the week before the boat show.  We'd already
    bought our current boat (a used Reinell) from the dealer, and had
    gotten to know the manager pretty well.  Went in several times over the
    space of a couple of weeks, dickering with a salesman who didn't know a
    boat from a hole in the water.  Got ticked off, and bitched to the
    manager.  Talked to him one whole rainy evening, and eventually sat
    down with him and worked over the option lists, selecting *the* boat
    for us.  he went into his office and hid for half an hour and came out
    and quoted us a price.  It seemed great to me, and we wrote a deposit
    check and left.  Two months later, we had our 25' Sundancer.
    
    As far as I can tell, we got it for at least $5K less than *anybody*
    I've ever found with the same boat.  He really cut us a deal.  Must
    have been a full moon, or his birthday, or something.
    
    Jeff

    I think that salespeople/managers for most big ticket items have price
    flexibility, even where you wouldn't think.  I've heard of Sears
    salesmen being talked down on refrigerators.   Yes boat dealers need to
    make a reasonable profit when selling in small volume, but an unsold
    boat costs the dealership money every day it sits there by
    depreciating,  consuming overhead, and tying up capital (or wholesale
    financing costs).
    
    I have a suspicion that boats carry a bigger profit margin than cars by
    a lot.  It would be interesting to know some numbers.  Wholesale car
    costs are pretty commonly available.

    I'm proud to say that we paid less for our boat in August than the
    dealer sold it for at the Seattle boat show.  Pretty impressive, eh
    Jeff?  
    
    I'd be curious to find out if people that don't have luck dickering
    down boat prices have any luck dickering down car prices.  I find that
    boat dealers come down just as much as anybody else that wants to sell
    a luxury item.  You should be able to do especially well right now. 
    I read in the WSJ that many of the boat motor companies have shutdown 
    production for the month of August due to very slow sales.  Interest
    rates are going up....the economy is burping.....  Boat dealers should
    be easy prey for the rest of the summer.  
    
    Here's something that I've been dieing to try.  There is a boat dealer
    in the Seattle area called Hawley's.  Hawley's (which is where I bought
    my last boat) now has 5 locations in the Seattle area.  I'd like to go
    to each of the Hawley's in the area and try to cut a deal on the same
    boat.  My curiosity is how much these guys are in unison on the bottom
    line.  We're not in the market now due to other long term costs like
    cribs etc.
    
    /brett

    I bought a 9' Livingston Dinghy from Hawleys in June. Their asking
    price was $795. Nick's boats in Seattle was advertising for $520.
    I walked in to Hawley's, told them that and they immediately met that
    price. Further, I charged it on VISA at Hawley's and Nick's is cash
    only, so that cost them a little margin also. Anybody who doesn't
    haggle on boats is getting ripped off.

Check out note #72 for more information on the current topic of pricing of boats

john

    
    
    P.T. said " and we all know what he said"
    
    DON'T BE ONE. 2-3 years ago, they were in the middle of a bust
    
    in Sales, they were more than willing to shove it up yours,
    
    Things have changed.......
    
    Here's some unconfirmed info i heard last week.
    
    Cape Dory has been closed for six weeks, but will build a 
    boat "if they get an order" 
    
    Pearson is closed..  gone, no more. + one other manufacturer
    in the same area...
    
    Here's a real deal, at my marina there's a 29 ft. Aquasport
    twin 350 Chevy's, i think some of the interior goods are
    still in their plastic bags... i think its an 88.
    
    The owner says "take over the payments and its yours"
    Period.......
    
    Sharpen your pencil, if they won't deal WALK OUT....
    
    JIm.
    
    
    
    

    Can anyone point me in the direction of a Starcraft dealer on the
    north shore of Mass?
    
    Gone fishin

Even though I did not purchase my boat from a local dealer, I would like to 
establish a relationship with a local OMC dealer (greater Worcester area would
be optimal).  I will be doing as much self-maintenance as possible; leaving
the big stuff to them.  I'm looking for a well-stocked dealer that welcomes
the DIYer.  I vaguely remember seeing an OMC dealer on the north side of
Rt. 20, just before getting onto greater-Worcester, west of Marine USA...

/Chris

    	That would be Gauch Bros. Marine, Rt. 20, Shrewsbury.  They carry
    Johnson.  After MUCH shopping around I bought a Whaler from them last
    fall.  They were very easy people to deal with.
    
    					B.C.

I can't find it in the phone book...mental block on the name.  They're on the
same side of the road, further west...

    I drive rt 20 from Northboro to rt 395 all the time and I don't
    remember any marina further west than Marine USA.
    

    your not talking about Doug Russells are you??  Or the new Marine
    USA on the North side of rt 20???
    

    I brought my boat in today for its 20 hour checkup at Marine USA
    and I asked them about a OMC dealer and they told me that they 
    are certified to service OMC's and that they stock parts..
    
    Colin