Conference vicki::boats

    Correction:  The boat is a Glassmaster, not a Glastron.

    If the engine runs, the trailer is not rotted and the boat doesn't
    leak, it's probably a good deal. Get some "muffs" hooked up to a
    garden hose and run the engine. Listen for any rapping and check
    the shift operation.  Good Luck!
    Doug

RE:
>> 1967 80 Hp Johnson Super Sea Horse, Electramatic
                                          ^

Check to see what type of lower end it has.  If the "Electramatic"
means that it has electric or hydro-electric shift, then this may
*not* be a good deal.  If you do decide to buy it, check the lower
carefully first, then operate with *EXTREME* caution in shallow or
rocky areas.  These lower ends are very complicated and fragile,
and finding parts and a shop that will touch one is both difficult
and expensive.
  
If it's a regular mechanical shift lower end then it's probably a
good deal.

Rick W.

    I had (up until last year) a Evinrude 90 HP Electric shifter lower unit 
    circa 1964.  I had service manuals, lists of dealers stocking "older parts"
    and hands on experiance stripping the lower unit down.  After a
    colision with an underwater object resulted in a broken driveshaft the
    unit had to be totaled because I could not find a new shaft.
    
    One of the people at OMC told me that they stop making parts for
    a specific engine after 10 years.  Some parts are common or
    interchangeable between newer and older engines, but parts unique to
    the older engines become real scarce so maintainence becomes a problem.
    
    With the electric shift look real close at the lower unit lubricant.
    They use type 'C' which is a clear fluid.  Drain some out and if it's
    at all milky, run, dont walk.  Water intrusion into the lower unit
    does not mix well with the electric coils that control shifting, and
    you don't want to get involved in resealing it. 
    
    I do say however, until the wreck, it was a responsive and reliable
    engine for the four years I owned it.
                                       
                                           Tom Urban  

    As long as the boat and trailer are good and sound, as others have
    already indicated, the motor is the key.
    
    Having gone through a similar exercise last spring (vintage 67 rig)
    my process was as follows. Assume the worst case that the motor
    is junk. It may or may not be, but at 20+ years old and as other
    notes have indicated, beware.
    
    So does the full price justify the boat and trailer? I personally
    would not pay more than $200 to $300 for the motor, even if it runs
    like a top.
    
    What would it cost to replace the motor, either new or a recent
    vintage. Based on this cost and the original rig cost, compare it
    to package a few years old (no more than 3 or 4 years).
    
    This should give you a better idea if it is a "good" deal.
    
    For what it is worth, I paid $500 last spring for a 67 14' MFG boat
    and a 71 trailer.
    
    Finding a motor (not new but an 83) took many months and as everyone
    will confirm, the motor is much more expensive that a boat and trailer.
    
    Good luck
    
    Jim

    One of the first things to check of course is the motor. As stated
    before get a pair of muffs and run the motor. Things to look for
    is oil or grease from around the prop shaft, before/after or during
    operation. This indicates a worn seal, which is easily repaired
    but you can use to lower the price. While it is running make sure
    water is coming from the upper water nozzle. Most models emit a
    steady stream, this is to indicate proper water-pump operation,
    a little bigger job than seals. Do not buy a motor that the lower
    unit has been cracked or the housing been welded in any way. A
    welder will tell you that they will hold but a good mechanic will
    tell you that experience shows most don't, especially 50 horse
    engines and up. If the housing comes unglued the lower shaft will
    probably end up on the bottom. 
    
          Check the hull of the boat for cracks or repairs, cracks are
    bad, inquire about any repairs to the fiberglass then decide. Check
    closely along the transom and splashwell for cracks, if the boat
    was towed a bounced a lot maybe due to bad roads the weight of the
    engine can damage a transom. Use the same stategies in buying a
    boat that you would use for a used car. If the boat is a beauty
    and the motor is junk you can always get a rebuilt or new engine
    and still have less money tied up in it than in a new one.
    
                                                 Mike H.
    

RE: Note 286.6
  >> Most models emit a steady stream, this is to indicate proper
  >> water-pump operation,
  

Mike provides all very good advice for a first time buyer.  I just
want to comment on the "tell-tale" water stream that was mentioned.
As stated it is true that most motors do have it, but many OMC
(Johnson/Evinrude) motors, especially older models, do not.  So don't
panic or reject the deal if you don't see the stream of water.  Check
the temperature of the power head and the water coming out of the
exhaust with your hand.  If the power head is relatively cool, and
the exhaust water is warm or hot then the water pump is working fine.


Rick W.

    This isn't about a used boat but about a used motor.
    I bought a 6hp Chrysler outboard and it doesn't work. 
    
    This wouldn't be a shock if I hadn't picked it up at the place where it
    had been overhauled. I paid the bill for the work on the motor and gave
    the difference between that and the askinprice to the former owner.
    
    It looks like new, inside and out.
    
    The problem:
    When I put it in the water yesterday, set it up, and pulled the starter
    cord, nothing happened. The cord came out but didn't retrt, and the
    motor didn't even make a peep. Now I have this small engine with a
    disconnected umbilicus in my basement.
    The former owner has promised by failed to liver the documentation on
    the motor.
    Anybody out there have any experience with old Chrysler outboards in
    the low-hp range?
    I really want to get this thing working.
    
    Did I make a false assumption that it was properly lubed by the people
    who overhauled it? Should I assume that the thing CAN be made to work?
    
    Any and all help greatly appreciated. 
    
    John H-C

    John,
    It sounds to me like you've got a busted recoil starter.  Sometimes
    the housing needs to be realigned after installation, try loosening
    the retaining screws and move it around a bit.  See if you can find
    a position where the pawls release and the rope goes back in.  If
    that doesn't work, pull the entire assembly off the top of the motor 
    and see if it works freely when off of the motor.
    
    If it appears to be broken and you're not at least somewhat mechanically 
    inclined, bring it to a shop which services Chrysler/Force and let them 
    mess with it. The recoil starter innards can fly apart on you and if 
    you're not familiar with how to reassemble it you can spend hours and
    still not get it right.
    
    Assuming the shop test ran the motor after the rebuild, the busted
    starter should have no bearing on how it runs.
    
    Rick

    John,
    	I had a 5 hp Chrysler once and it also had problems with the
    recoil starter. If yours is the same you can still start the motor to 
    at least determine if its working without using the recoil mechanism.
    	The recoil mechanism was in a housing which could be easily removed
    from the power head. Once its removed you should be able to see a cup 
    which is bolted directly to the flywheel. (The recoil starter mechanism
    engages with this cup to turn over the motor.) The cup has one or two
    slots in it which are can be used to attach a rope pull. Just get a
    shord piece of old fashioned window weight rope, or anything with a 
    small enough diameter to fit in the slot. Tie a knot at the end so it
    jams on the slot and wrap the rope clockwise around the cup a few times 
    and you have a pre-recoil, old fashioned, rope starter.
    	My directions might be fuzzy but I'm sure you'll get the idea once
    you see it. I used this method for quite awhile on my old 5 hp till I
    got around to fixing the many problems I had with the recoil starter.  
    
    Good Luck,
    Paul

    Thanks, Paul.
    I'll try your suggestion as soon as the motor comes back from the
    marina that did the overhaul (assuming the problem crops up again).
    
    John H -C

    Moved by moderator...
    For additional info do a directory of the following titles:
    DIR/TITLE=USED
    DIR/TITLE=SKI
    DIR/TITLE=BOAT
================================================================================
Note 957.0             What to look for in a used ski boat            No replies
ASDG::SWAN                                           35 lines  19-MAR-1992 10:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

   My wife & I have started looking for a recreational ski boat to use on 
a fresh water lake in Maine.   We're new to the boat-world and are a bit 
confused at where to begin.  Since we'd like to get a boat adequate to pull
a heavy skier with 3 people in the boat but can't afford the $10K price
tag, we'd like to look at used boats.  Given the state of the enconomy,
we expect to find lots of used boats for sale.

  Can someone give us some guidance?  So far, we've found that a 17' glass 
bowrider with either an I/O or an outboard would meet our needs.  We plan to 
leave the boat at the lake all summer and should be able to handle basic motor
maintenance.

	*How do we know if a used glass boat is in good shape?

	*What brand names should we look for (and which ones should
	 we stay away from)?

	*Outboard or I/O motor (which is more dependable, easier to
	 maintain, more economical, better performance)?

	*Where should we look (classified ads, Re-Po companies, boat
	 dealers)?

	*How old should we go (How fast does a new boat depreciate,
	 which brands hold their value)?

   Thanks for any help.

-Steve

PS.  If some of these questions have been answered in past notes, please
steer me in the right direction.

	

    Get the Boat Trader magazine for your area. On brand names, you'll get
    one heck of an argument on what is good. Get a hull survey and an
    engine survey if you aren't sure what to look for.

    I'll put a few comments in seeing how I've spent so much time in the
    past few months window shopping for a boat (again),
    
    >tag, we'd like to look at used boats.  Given the state of the enconomy,
    >we expect to find lots of used boats for sale.

    I've found that the greatest percentage of boats for sale in the 16-20'
    trailerable range are "boat show specials". That means they are the
    entry level offerings, typically with 120-130-140 hp I/O's, or outboards
    with less than 115hp. If you plan to do any amount of skiing you
    shouldn't under-estimate the horsepower required. Sure, there are ways
    of compensating for less than ideal horsepower ( bigger ski's, less
    people in the boat, 2 ski's vs. 1, dropping a ski vs. starting on 1,
    draggin' the skier the length of the lake to get up to speed (^: ),
    but if you know up front that you want to ski then buy enough
    horsepower to do the job.  You can't buy too much. I recommend at least
    160 hp for an I/O, and 135 hp for an outboard. More is better, but I've
    been accused of 'over-kill'.
    
    >	*How do we know if a used glass boat is in good shape?

    There's lot of helpful hints in this file on checking for rotted floor
    boards, punky transom mounts, signs of abuse, etc. Spend some time
    reading them. 
    
    >	*What brand names should we look for (and which ones should
	 we stay away from)?
    Again this file already has lots of <...errr.> opinions on what's good
    and what's not. Basically, if the boat is clean, well maintained, fit's
    your needs, is priced right, and will be used within sight of land,
    then I wouldn't rule any brand out.
    
    You get what you pay for. An 1986 Checkmate or Sea_Ray will command a 
    higher resale price than a Glastron. Doesn't mean that the Glastron
    isn't a good boat for your needs. The more expensive boats will offer
    you some more options, and perhaps better contruction techniques and
    built in floatation, and of course re-sale value.
    
        >Outboard or I/O motor (which is more dependable, easier to
	 maintain, more economical, better performance)?

    Difference of opinions again. I/O's have typically lower maintenance
    costs becuase you can use automotive parts. Outboards are lighter, have
    better horsepower-to-weight ratio, and are easier to winterize. It's
    preference. The newer outboards have oil injection which is a marvelous
    invention. It varies the amount or oil based on the engine's needs. The
    big outboards without oil injection don't like to idle without plug
    fouling. Not all outboards have power tilt & trim. For any engine above
    75 hp I would make power t&t a requirement.  
	
    
    >	*Where should we look (classified ads, Re-Po companies, boat
    >	 dealers)?

	Yup, except I don't believ you can demo a re-po. Dealers will offer
    a warranty in most case, private parties are cheaper. Preference.
    
     >	*How old should we go (How fast does a new boat depreciate,
     >	 which brands hold their value)?
      
       Just look at the relative resale prices of different makes of boats.
    It will become <painfully> obvious which makes hold their value. Ones 
    that cost less new, will cost <much> less used.
   
    In many ways, buying a boat is more work than buying a car or a house.
    Take your time, demo a few boats if possible, and don't sell your needs
    short. 
    
    This should get you started.
    
    ~jeff
    

-Steve

PS.  If some of these questions have been answered in past notes, please
steer me in the right direction.

	

RE: Note 286.14

Jeff,
I agree with most of what you said, except for two points:

>> You get what you pay for. An 1986 Checkmate or Sea_Ray will command a 
>> higher resale price than a Glastron.

Your point is well taken, but maybe Glastron wasn't a good choice for
a boat that doesn't hold its value. Generally, Glastrons are not low
end boats and DO hold their value very well.  A better example of a low
end boat that doesn't hold its value might be something like a Galaxy
or Bayliner (no offense to the Galaxy or Bayliner owners).

>> I/O's have typically lower maintenance costs becuase you can use 
>> automotive parts.

Hmmm, I would strongly suggest that it's the other way around - outboards
have *MUCH* lower maintenance costs than I/O's.  For starters, most modern 
outboards require no ignition tuneups, only spark plug changes. And I/O's, 
if the maintenance procedures are followed to the letter, should have the 
gimbal bearings greased and then re-aligned yearly, a dealer job that costs 
about $75.  Also, there is the yearly ritual of draining and winterizing 
the I/O's cooling system, for which the anti-freeze alone costs as much 
as I've spent on yearly outboard maintenance.  In 3 seasons, I've spent 
under $25 total on maintenance for my Johnson 88hp outboard - 3 quarts of 
lower end oil and one set of spark plugs.

Rick

    Rick, father of Amy, 
    
    Ok, maybe Glastron wasn't the best choice but I told myself that I
    wouldn't drag THAT brand name thru the mud without first-hand facts. 
    I never considered Glastron more than a middle-of-the-road offering.
    
    Let's face it though, when was the last time anybody saw, any make of
    boat self destruct, crack in half, or otherwise fail in a manner than
    posed an immediate threat of life while boating on a lake within sight
    of land ???? There is way too much snobery among the boating masses as
    to which brand is better. If *you* like the boat, can afford it, and it
    meets *your* needs then buy it. If you buy your boat to please your
    neighbors you'll never be happy. If all you do is small freshwater
    lakes then what's the big deal. I know people who zip across lakes in
    handbuilt wooden boats no bigger than 7' in length, and they love it.
    :^) 
    
    As for maintenance costs of O/B vs I/O I will concede that as you
    presented the issue, outbords are cheaper. I have spent a few dollars
    more on my I/O. But then my engine is bigger than yours and I can go
    faster ! :^)
    
    I personally like outboards, big ones, with engine cowls so big that
    they block your rearward vision. But, if the price range you are
    looking at for a used boat doesn't allow you to get an outboard with
    oil injection, then I would recommend going with an I/O. 
    
    Just the opinion of one man with one I/O, versus one man with 40
    outboards!
    
    ~jeff
    

   Thanks for the input. Here's what I've learned so far in my efforts to 
find a good fresh water recreational ski boat. 

   Am I on the right track??? 


	* A bowrider hull design of ~ 17-19' seems like the best set up.
	  It can carry several people and since our cottage is on a lake
	  about 3 miles in diameter we would not have to worry about being
	  out in severe weather or too far from shore. 

	* It sounds like the only advantages of an I/O is that it's quieter and
	  more efficient.   Maintenance must be done by a qualified person
	  and you (obviously) can't unbolt the motor and take it to the shop.
	  Most boats equipped with an I/O in the entry level price range 
	  will have MerCruiser V4 or V6 engines.  More expensive boats might 
	  have a volvo engine.  A reasonable size for skiing would be 
	  135 - 165 hp.

	* A good outboard with oil injection will require less maintenance
	  than an I/o, be less expensive to maintain, weigh less, and give 
	  a better "pop" for skiing.  I also like the fact that you can 
	  hoist an outboard completely out of the water when/if you want to 
	  run the boat into shallow water or up on a beach.  Any of the 
	  big-name brands are good (Johnson, Evinrude, Yamaha, Suzuki).  Force
	  engines are at the low end.  A reasonable size outboard for skiing
	  would be 90 - 130 hp.

	* There seem to be several companies that make bowriders.  Companies
	  with the best reputation include Glastron, Chapperal, and Dixie;
	  Companies with the worst reputation include Bayliner & Forester.
	  The rest seem to fall in the middle somewhere.  It is good to look
	  for a hull with some internal (foam) flotation.

	* When looking for a used boat we should find someone we can trust,
	  examine the boat out of the water, and run it in the water.  Also
	  we should look at the "Boating Blue Book" to find the approximate
	  value (where can I find this book?).

re                        <<< Note 286.17 by ASDG::SWAN >>>
>                -< More thoughts on buying our first ski boat >-


>   Thanks for the input. Here's what I've learned so far in my efforts to 
> find a good fresh water recreational ski boat. 
 
>    Am I on the right track??? 

	Yes.


>	* A bowrider hull design of ~ 17-19' seems like the best set up.
>	  It can carry several people and since our cottage is on a lake
>	  about 3 miles in diameter we would not have to worry about being
>	  out in severe weather or too far from shore. 

>	* It sounds like the only advantages of an I/O is that it's quieter and
>	  more efficient.   Maintenance must be done by a qualified person
>	  and you (obviously) can't unbolt the motor and take it to the shop.
	
	Medium/large outboards weigh a bit too much to easily do this 
	with too.

	I/Os are also much closer to car/truck engines, i.e. they are
built on the blocks of mass produced engines.  Parts tend to be
relatively inexpensive and readily available via the local auto parts
outlets.  

>	  Most boats equipped with an I/O in the entry level price range 
>	  will have MerCruiser V4 or V6 engines.  More expensive boats might 
>	  have a volvo engine.  A reasonable size for skiing would be 
>	  135 - 165 hp.

	More often a straight four than a V4.  I don't think the Volvo 
branded engine costs or is worth any more, typically it is built on 
the same block that mercruiser use - ford or gm.

>	* A good outboard with oil injection will require less maintenance
>	  than an I/o, be less expensive to maintain, weigh less, and give 
>	  a better "pop" for skiing.  I also like the fact that you can 

	Yes, but I don't think the difference is THAT great.

>	  hoist an outboard completely out of the water when/if you want to 
>	  run the boat into shallow water or up on a beach.  Any of the 

	You can bring an I/O up far enough to beach the boat without 
hitting the prop, I used to rest mine on the "nose" of the I/O drive.  
Even a tournament INBOARD can be beached, mine frequently rests on its 
fins and rudder.

>	  big-name brands are good (Johnson, Evinrude, Yamaha, Suzuki).  Force
>	  engines are at the low end.  A reasonable size outboard for skiing
>	  would be 90 - 130 hp.

	Remember that these are specialty engines and you will 
	likely pay premium prices for parts.

	This isn't really small enough to just pull off the transom 
and tuck in the trunk of your car to take to the shop for 
maintenance/repairs.

>	* There seem to be several companies that make bowriders.  Companies
>	  with the best reputation include Glastron, Chapperal, and Dixie;
>	  Companies with the worst reputation include Bayliner & Forester.
>	  The rest seem to fall in the middle somewhere.  It is good to look
>	  for a hull with some internal (foam) flotation.

	SeaRay is good;  I think I still have a pre-Brunswick era one 
for sale somewhere (-:

>	* When looking for a used boat we should find someone we can trust,
>	  examine the boat out of the water, and run it in the water.  Also
>	  we should look at the "Boating Blue Book" to find the approximate
>	  value (where can I find this book?).

	Ahhh, similarly when looking for a used car one should find a 
used car salesperson that one can trust....

	Reg

    Minor nit, 
    
    I think Dixie went chapter 11, not known as a quality mfg'r.
    
    ~jeff 

    One point you haven't talked about is cost of fuel. Outboards burn more
    fuel and they also burn outboard oil mixed with the gas. Outboard oil
    is not cheap. The I/O will cost less to run.

    Another statement I question is better boats have Volvo? When I
    repowered last year, Volvo marine inboards were less expensive than
    Mercruiser.
    

With the budget I have and after a lot of shopping,
I am looking at the following options:

	I/O:
		1973 -> 1975
		120 -> 140 HP

	OB:
		1983 -> 1985
		60 -> 70 HP

The usage I am planning for this boat is water sking.
I am a new boater-to-be and a new skier, even though
I was able to ski on one ski (on friends boat) but
that was years ago (when no gray was showing...)

Should I go for younger less powerfull or the other
way around?

    It depends on a lot of things! What size boats are you looking at
    (16'-18', ??), how big of a skier are you (size and weight), and are
    you hoping to ski with a single slalom-type or a pair.
    
    I wouldn't think that the size outboards you are considering are
    adequate. The range of i/o sizes is the better of the two options. If
    you're a big skier then a bit more power would be better, say something
    around 115-120 hp in an outboard.
    
    Of the two options you mentioned, the newer outboards would give you
    fewer maintainence headaches and propably cost less to operate.
    
    A few more details would help.
    
    ~jeff

The boat cannot be more then 18 feet because of the 
boat rack I have.  16 feet looks like a reasonable 
size.

I am 5'6" and weigh 130 pounds.

I am hoping to ski on a single slalom ski but have
no intention to become a maniac (however I dont know 
if I have a M. Hide inside me).

Another use will be for the friends visiting and 
who want to give a try to water sking.

My budget does not allow for the more desirable
OB 115-120 hp.

The options shown in .22 are what the market here is 
offering for the money I have.

Operating costs are a factor, for example gas here
is twice the price it is in the states.


Michel.

    My friend bought his first boat 5 years ago.  It was a 15' bowrider
    with a good running 70HP Nissan.  He weighs about 150#'s.  He was happy
    with the boat when he was learning how to get up on two skiis but it
    was impossible to get him up on one because the boat just didn't have
    the power to pull him out cleanly.  He became one of the best two ski
    skiers I have seen but he was stuck at that level because of the boat.
    I finally convinced him that as soon as he get's a more powerfull boat,
    he will be skiing slalom.  Spend a little more now because you'll get
    more use and pleasure out of it.
    Wayne

One thing is for sure the budget is fixed.

About .25 should I interpret your comment as a go 
for the older I/O to get the necessary HP to ski 
on one ski?

Michel

    That's exactly what he did, although I haven't seen him yet to see if he
    is doing better.  He just bought a 16 year old 19' Galaxy with a 195 HP
    I/O from this notes file for $4000.  This boat looks brand new and is as
    solid as a rock.  Even if he has to replace an outdrive or rebuild the 
    engine in a year or two, this boat will serve him well for a number of 
    years.  I'm sure the 195HP motor will pull him up very well. 
    P.S. He has a 15' bowrider with 70HP Nissan for sale.
    Wayne

    Michel,
    
    For your size and weight, and a 16' boat the i/o combo would work well.
    You'd have to try the outboard to see if it was adequate. I'm what you
    call a 'large' skier and I know the size outboard you mentioned is way too
    small to get me up on one ski. My father's pontoon boat with a 70 hp
    won't go fast enough to support my weight on one ski. I can get up on
    one ski behind a 130 i/o though, and it has the top end speed too.
    
    You didn't mention on older o/b as an option. I would think an outboard
    between the i/o vintage and the o/b vintage would fall within your
    budget. Then again, if you find a clean i/o in the price range you want, 
    and you like it, then buy it. 
    
    ~jeff
    
    Try before you  buy. 

Yesterday I tested a 1975 Peterboro with a Mercruser 120 hp.
The boat seemed to lack power when I passed from full stop
to full power.  The motor (4 cyl) was shaking more then 
I thought it should, remember I am not an expert.

My theory is that there is one piston shot, or one plug shot
or I dont know.  Tonight I am brigning it to a mechanic
for inspection.  What should I ask for on top of a compression
test?

Thanks,

Michel.

The compression was the following from the rear to the 
front:

	70	50	60	110

I suggested to the mechanic to pour a little oil in the 
cylinder to find out if it is the rings or the valves
(as suggested here in this conference) and it was
the rings.  The 70 psi went up to 110 after the oil
was poured in.  They will open the motor and fix 
whatever they find.  The price of the repair will
be paid by the seller.  My buying price does not
change.

Michel.