Conference vicki::boats

    Also, do you have any idea what it would cost (ballpark). The damage
    is not extensive.

    H&H Propeller in Salem fixes props. An alumimun will run 50-60 clams.
    
    (thats salem mass)
    
    Bruce

    
    
    	Marine USA on rt 20 in Worcester repaired my Aluminum
    	prop fo $50. Looks new except for the paint which did 
    	not last to long.
    
    	Len DiPinto
    

There is an A & G Propeller (or is it A & S)  in Conventry, R.I. I've
used and been happy with..   Aluminum props are repaired for $35...
I'd call them to get the address. (I have their card at home, but not
with me)...

Al

    Last spring I bought a new prop from an ad that was in a boating
    magazine.  I it was aluminum and cost $65 with shipping.  Why have
    one rebuilt when you can get a new one.  
    
    They are not that difficult to install yourself and I was able to keep
    my old one (which wasn't that bad) for a spare.

    You must have bought a small wheel. Larger Aluminum props run around
    $120 more than twice the cost of rebuilding.
    
    Capt. Codfish

    I had H&H Propeller fix the prop for $57. Super job, you can't even
    tell it was damaged......
    
    Thanks for the advice...

    Is it as easy to repair a stainless steel prop as compared to an
   aluminum?
    
    /MArk

RE: Note 263.8  

>>    Is it as easy to repair a stainless steel prop as compared to an
>>    aluminum?

Not sure about the guy who does the actual work, but for you it's almost
as easy.  You just hold your wallet open a few seconds longer while you
pull out a little more cash.   8^)

Rick W.

    I figured as much.....thats why I'm gonna replace the stainless
    prop that came standard on my yamaha outboard with an ALUM. till I find
    the locations of rocks in the parker river where I'll be coming
    out of. almost NO water at low tide.
    
    /* *\MArk

    So are SST props less likely to be damaged by minor encounters?  A
    local dealer also says that one of their advantages is that they bend
    rather than shear even in major impact and are thus more likely to
    be repairable than an Aluminum prop in the same situation.
    

Except for the fact that they don't change pitch as much under load due to 
having stiffer blades I thought that their added strength against minor damage
was thr primary benefit - and the reason most people bougth them.

I know that I was thinking of buying one, and I've even seen used ones for sale
at a price I could afford - but, of course, never in the size I use. Now I am
not so sure. I had a discussion with another Cape boater at a Power Squadron
meeting on props. He had switched to stainless steel. He went on to say that one
drawback, as he understands it, is that since SS doesn't bend or shear as like 
aluminum the force of the impact is transmitted to the shaft and other pieces of
the lower unit. The implication was that no matter how expensive aluminum props
were that it was cheaper, easier, and less likely to cause you to miss a good
part of a season to replace one of those than it was to repair a lower unit. 

We went on to agree that the Cape wasn't like boating on lakes or in Maine where
we were far less likely to have a "hard hit" and therefore the benefits of using
a SS prop seemed to outweigh the potential losses. But then he went on to tell 
me that soon after putting on his SS prop he hit a sandbar - nothing major he
said, what we might call a "soft hit". After that he noted that his prop shaft
was now slightly bent in the lower unit of his outboard. Not enough so it 
wouldn't turn, but you could see that it was turning concentrically. He is sure
that the SS prop had nothing to do with its bending, but had no other explana-
tion either. Matter of fact when he told the story the bent shaft wasn't really
part of it, i.e., "...and afterward I looked and found a bent shaft", but more
like an afterthought, a curious coincedence in his mind. He planned to keep 
running the SS prop. Me, I am not so sure I want to take the plunge now.

If the rock you hit with a SS prop doesn't break, and if the blades remain 
intact, where is the energy of the impact dissipated? Hopefully in the rubber
collar I guess, but not all props may use that design, and even if they do will
the transient be to fast and steep for the rubber to help?

john

    they are more tolerable as the dealer mentioned. they will more
    likely bend than break.
    
    as always there's a tradeoff. they are more espensive, but are
    more tolerable..
    
    they also, in opinions i've heard, perform better, they hold
    they're pitch under loads, where aluminum may flex a bit.
    
    it might be worth your while to develop a trade-off table
    and assign some costs to each of the categories.
    
    Jim.
    

    Besides their toughness SS props are more efficient. The enherent
    strength of SS allows the designer to make the blades thinner in the
    right places and, as previously mentioned, they don't flex as much as
    Aluminum.
    
    Don't know if the increased efficiency offsets the increased cost.
    That would depend on your application...and the Kuwait situation . ;^)
    

      It's funny you should mention the impact buisness with SST props.
    When I told my father that I got a SST prop for my boat, the first
    words out of his mouth were "they're bad, if you hit something,
    your lower unit will break". In the past, many SST props did not
    have a rubber insert. (older outboards and inboards come to mind)
    I can see this being a problem with a SST prop. I think with a shear
    pin or with a rubber insert, there should be enough give in the
    system to prevent the lower unit from getting excessive damage.
    
      It also occurs to me that the "higher damage with SST props" myth
    could easily come from the fact that they are more often used where
    the owners want more performance/speed. Now what does that tell you
    these people spend a lot of their time doing? Going fast - right.
    Well, a hard, high-speed prop strike will *always* be hard on your
    engine, no matter what metal is involved. I think HP boaters are
    more likely to have these - rather than fishermen who are usually
    going to places they know, and then spending the rest of the day
    trolling or at anchor to fish. Of course I KNOW that *anyone* can
    have a bad day!
    
      I like my SST prop, and it *does* give me more performance.
    
      I HAD to enter this note because, 1. I have a SST prop and 2. so Rick
    W. would know that, yes, I *do* still go (or at least *want* to
    go) boating.
    
      	Kenny_who_hopes_he_never_has_to_find_out_about_this_first_hand

    Speaking of props....after the Carter Pin is removed
    does one need a special tool to remove the blades..
    I want to take it off and replace it but I dont want
    to break anything in the process.
    
    I will buy an manual as soon as I get around to it but
    I never think of the boat until I read this notes file.
    
    Lloyd

     Re:.16  On older engines (More than 20 years) there was a cotter
    pin which held a small cap. Under that cap there is a SHEAR pin
    which, when removed, allows the prop to just slide off the shaft.
    On newer engines (outboards and most I/O's) there is a nut on the 
    end of the propshaft which is secured by a cotter pin. Remove the
    cotter pin and then remove the nut and the prop *should* slide right
    off. Before you put the prop back on, coat the shaft with waterproof
    grease. If the prop does NOT slide off, then it may be corroded
    to the shaft and you may need to take it to a dealer to have the
    prop *coaxed* off to avoid (more) damage to the shaft. 
    
      If you are asking about an inboard engine, you'll have to ask
    one of the skiboat owners.

    				Kenny

RE: .16

Nah, on most outboards and I'O's, once you remove the cotter pin and
retaining nut the prop should slide right off.  It is not a press fit.
If the prop is stuck, tilt the motor up and apply penetrating oil to 
the splines, allowing it to sit a while.  If it still won't come off 
tap the prop lightly with a block of wood or use a prop puller, but 
don't beat on it unless you like to throw away money.  And always 
grease the splines before reinstalling the prop.

I have heard a rumor that straight inboard props can be a real (classic)
b%tch to remove, and that a puller is required.  That rumor also mentioned 
that a member of this conference is the proud owner of a puller....  
 8^)

Rick W.

re              <<< Note 263.18 by GOLF::WILSON "Marine Buyologist" >>>
                           -< Kenny took my answer >-
RE: .16

> I have heard a rumor that straight inboard props can be a real (classic)
> b%tch to remove, and that a puller is required.  That rumor also mentioned 
> that a member of this conference is the proud owner of a puller....  
> 8^)

re tightness:	Yeah, well, if Ya leave 'em on for a while;  its a
tapered shaft see, and all that thrust is delivered by pushing the
drive shaft, which in turn pushes on the back of the trannie, which in
turn pushes on the back of the engine ...w.i.t.p.o.t. motor mounts,
witpot stringers, hull, and the boat moves (then there's some twitt at 
the other end of the rope trying to pull it back, fat chance) ...so it
gets shoved onto the taper pretty damned tight.  If you leave it 
"dry"  it can be tough to get off;  *_WARNING_*  some folks will argue
about the wisdom of greasing the taper, I won't, I won't even get into
it (-:, (-:.   A good enuf prop puller for an inboard is about $25 from
Bliss - this ain't the Bliss vs US Marine topic, but they had 'em in
stock the day I needed/wanted one.  Half the  "cl*ss*c b*tch"  problem
comes from a couple of other factors  a)  No tilt mechanism to make it
easier to get at, don't even try an in water swap without scuba gear
and floats tied to your tools, when its on the trailer you have to
crawl around in the dirt a bit.  b) the rudder is right behind it  - -
someone else can relate the problems of backing a puller into the
rudder (I understand it bends the rudder post). 

re;   Stainless, Alumin, and "Bronze alloys":	Michigan wheel claims
their nickel-aluminium-bronze (Nibral) alloy to be stronger than their
stainless.  As I remember it they compare about as follows:


		tensile 			Elongation
		strength 	Yield		(at yield,
		(psi)		(psi)		  I assume)

Stainless	~70,000		~30,000		~36%		

Nibral		~85,000 	~35,000		~24%


difference	~15,000 	~5,000		~1/3 less
in favor	psi higher	psi higher
of Nibral

			
NB, I thought the tensile strength of regular mild steel was ~83,000
psi and I don't remember having previously discovered stainless to
have a lower tensile strength,  ....I'll double check it. 

Anyway, I have a Nibral prop on my inboard, it works just fine and
typically just ticks and clicks on the rocks that I sometimes find at
trolling speed  - -  I try to  *_NOT_*  exceed trolling speed in 
unknown waters, (though I've been known to plane over rocks that I know
are there, just to be sure of clearing them  (-:, (-:)
I'm sure a high speed strike would remove the whole shaft and strut
from the boat, the only  "protection"  against dead heads is the 3
stabilizer fins (mock keels ?) that would hit them first, hopefully 
knocking them down and/or lifting the boat up a little.  I hit
something in the Merrimac river last March/April at about 30 MPH, when
I went back to see what (who ?) it was I found a big block of ice with
a cut in it that probably came from the front fin.  After we skied and
I got the boat back on the trailer I checked the prop - OK. 


	Reg

{Maybe I get it back from the repair guy tonight}

    
    The last time I talked to the guys down at H&H props in salem ma  
    they had told me that a SS prop will be more durable if you run it 
    thru sand or gravel as apposed to running an Aluminum one thru it,
    but they seem to think that if you hit a rock with either you are 
    going to have to fix either of them.  The SS may seem to have less
    damage but it costs twice as much to fix the SS than the Alum.
    (about $100 vs $50 )  The guy I talked to actually talked me out of 
    a SS prop, since I figured I could fix the alum twice for every 
    SS fix and if you hit something hard enough and big enough to completely
    junk the alum prop you may be gald you had a "breakaway" prop and
    you surely will have done some significant damage if it were SS as well.
    They said if you do alot of boating in siltly or sandy waters that the
    durability is worth the cost. The SS is much more durable than alum
    when it comes to sand and such, but a rock will probably damage both.
    I use my boat primarily in lakes where water that has suspended sand
    in it is not really a common problem. 
    
    As far as performance goes,  SS may or may not be better for you.
    I did not feel that the extra out of the hole performance of a SS prop
    justified a 3X cost difference and a 2X repair difference for the
    improvements it provided. (IMO)
    
    I would sugest trying to borrow or demo any SS prop before buying.
    
    Mike 

    Let me add my 2c to this discussion:
    
    Al is very good prop material. It is cheap, light, easily formed, tough
    (relatively!) and corrosionvise compatible with the rest of the
    engine/drive.
    
    SST has higher strength but is worse in almost all other respects.
    
    In practice SST props tend to be manufactured with greater care than
    Al-ones. The reasoning behind that probably being that "as they will be
    more expensive anyway they might be worth a better (= even more
    expensive ) finnish too".
    
    The main advantage of SST can be utilized in two differen, often
    mutually exclusive ways: Either the prop is made like a standard al
    or or it is made with much thinner blades. In the first case the
    result is standard performance but much higher strength against damage,
    in the latter higher performance results but the prop has no more
    strength than an aluminum one. So arguing about performance and
    strength comparisons between SST and Al is meaningless without defining
    what has been the priority in the SST prop design.
    
    Another factor that I havn't seen mentioned in this discussion before
    is the impact of prop weight on the shift mechanism. As the SST prop
    always is much heavier than a similiar Al one the wear on the shift
    mechanism will be much greater with SSTs. Remember that there is no
    nice slipping clutch to be let in gradually. Shifting into gear is very
    much a "slam-bang" affair using a kind of on-off switch. (At least in 
    outboards and sterndrives)
    
    Some high-performance SST props dispense with the rubber cushion in
    order to get down the hub diameter. Those are real shift killers!
    
    If money is not a major issue I would personally go with a performance 
    SST for cruising in open waters but stick to aluminium when there are 
    significant risks for hitting something with the prop.
    
    -jan

	Last week I introduced myself in this conference as a new boater. 
Last friday I hit a rock for the first time while on the Merrimack.  It was
the 3rd time I'd taken the boat out.  Geez, I have a new appreciation for
all of the discussion about hidden rocks, etc.  All of a sudden, even 
though the boat is unusable, I just feel a bit gun-shy.  I think I'm having 
bad dreams at night about rocks.....

	Anyway, the marina in Tyngsboro said said my I need a new prop
($135), the prop shaft is slightly bent ($275), and I need and some welding
($250).  Any suggestions on the reliability of the Tyngsboro marina, other
places to get a quote, etc.?  Would it be worthwhile to do the prop and 
prop shaft myself?  Do I need special tools?

Bummed,
Jeff

RE: 
>> I hit a rock for the first time while on the Merrimack.  It was
>> the 3rd time I'd taken the boat out. 

Congratulations, you've been initiated to the club.  It's not a question
of whether you'll hit a rock, but when.  It probably just took you a
bit less time than most.  'Course, by running the Merrimuck you stacked
the odds against yourself...    8^)

>> Anyway, the marina in Tyngsboro said I need a new prop ($135),

What kind of drive is this?  That price sounds a bit high for an aluminum
and too low for stainless.  Assuming it's aluminum, I'd shop for a better
price.

>> the prop shaft is slightly bent ($275), 

Sounds reasonable - the lower end needs to be removed and completely 
disassembled and reassembled to straighten the shaft.

>> and I need and some welding($250). 

Outrageous.  You can get a whole new skeg welded on for less than that.
Again, the lower end needs to be disassembled for this, but the job can
be combined with the prop shaft straightening.  It sounds to me like 
they're charging you for disassembly and reassembly of the lower unit twice,
once for each job.  This job should be el-cheapo since the lower end will
already be apart.

>> Any suggestions on the reliability of the Tyngsboro marina, other places
   to get a quote, etc.?

I've heard both good and bad about them.  Maybe someone else with direct 
experience with them could comment.  

>> Would it be worthwhile to do the prop and prop shaft myself?  Do I need
   special tools?

I dunno.  Again, what kind of drive is it and how are your mechanical skills?
Buy the manual or get one from the library, and see what they have to say 
about special tools and the difficulty of the job.  I'm sure you could save 
a ton of money by farming out the welding and shaft straightening, and finding
your own deal on the prop.

Rick

    
    I've dealt with the folks in Tyngsboro...
    
    Get a second opinion!  (or third)
    
    Jeanne
    

	Jeff and I have talked a bit about this off line - I didn't 
realize it at the time, but it seems like it was him and his buddies 
that were getting out as we were getting in last friday night  - -  
"stuff"  happens.

	For ref;

	The little mini-rudder thinggie that needs to be welded is a 
skeg, and yes, yours is half gone away.  I scraped up the one on my 
SeaRay a few times and eventually decided that it needed to be fixed.  
I took the bottom unit off myself (water pump impellor was about due 
anyway) and hauled it off to Roy's Marina in Worcester, he sent it out 
to be done, I had the prop done at the same time - together they were 
~$150.  Aluminum props are usually rebuilt for ~$45-50, sometimes 
they're too far gone, though some shops will take in props that others 
will refuse.  I think new ones were ~$115 a couple of years 
ago.  You shouldn't have to pay more than $100 for the actual welding, 
they just cut off the old skeg and weld on a standard piece, I've seen 
the piece advertised for ~$20.  If they're stripping the shaft and 
gears out of the lower unit anyway - they shouldn't charge you double 
labor.

	The shaft ?   Which shaft ?   Probably the short horizontal 
one for that price, damage to the long vertical one isn't obvious 
enough to give decent estimates until the unit is torn down - I think 
its usually stripped gears that need doing then and its a lot more 
money.  Have you looked at the shaft yourself ?   If you run the boat 
with the ear-muffs on and put it in gear without the prop on can you 
see the shaft wobble ?  If not then its a shafting problem of a 
different kind (-:, (-:  I think the prop and skeg usually take so much 
of the shock that the shaft rarely bends - your (bad) luck may vary.

	Good luck;  lets  ALL  have a rock watch gumball on the M'Mack 
soon ?

	Reg

re: .23-.25

	Thanks for the suggestions.  I think I'll go to a pro this time 
around.  I have the Mercruiser book and it looks like to you need some 
special tools.  Anyone every try the Merc dealer in Billerica on Route 4? 
I'll place a call there today. 

	I do have an aluminum prop.  The guy at Tyngsboro said it is too
far gone to be fixed.  Also, turning it at hand speed he said he could see
a slight movement of (...what I'd call the 'vertical') propshaft. The thing
that scared me about Tyngsboro was his comment about '$800 for a whole new
lower unit...'  Geez, it instantaneusly reminded me of comments about boats
being a money hole in the water... 

	Luckily, I do have insurance with a $250 deductable.  At this point
I hope 'safety points' are not the basis for future premiums. 

Jeff

In the midwest, $800 is just for the labor.

    I have a problem with a dealer who has an unmarked boulder 6 inches under 
    water and 5 feet away from his dock.  I dinged my prop at this dealer's
    dock 3 years ago, and I'm still bitter...
    
    Carl
    

Just to update the plight of my repair bill -- Billerica Yamaha (also a 
Merc dealer) gave an estimate for $2,000 in parts and $200 in labor to fix 
the lower unit.  Parts included gear sets, prop, prop shaft, gear housing, 
bunch of other stuff, etc.  Insurance agreed to pay me $1,561.  The dealer
agreed to fix it for the insurance by repairing rather than replacing the
gear housing.  I should have the boat back at the end of this week.  I 
think I'm going to invest in a spare prop.

I could be off-base, but it seems to me that dealing with these boat 
dealers is more difficult than finding a trustworthy mechanic for your car.
I'd really be interested in building a relationship with a marina that can 
winterize and summerize the power train.  Any suggestions would be
appreciated. 

Jeff

re                 <<< Note 263.31 by OSINMS::BURKE "Jeff Burke" >>>
>                              -< current status >-

	Gee, $2200  - -  or whatever lower number the insurance 
adjuster comes up with.

	Good to hear you'll be back on the water again soon.


> I could be off-base, but it seems to me that dealing with these boat 
> dealers is more difficult than finding a trustworthy mechanic for your car.
> I'd really be interested in building a relationship with a marina that can 
> winterize and summerize the power train.  Any suggestions would be
> appreciated. 

	Hmmmm, sounds familiar...   Its part of the reason that I do 
as much of my own work as I possibly can;  boats, cars, trucks, lawn 
mowers, etc.   I think of it as a semi-skilled part time job that pays
~$40 an hour after taxes and other deductions (-:  (-:

	Reg

PS	What's  "winterize"  mean ?

>> What's  "winterize"  mean ?

I can disconnect the hoses myself.  The problem is finding the drains
that are part of the cooling system, changing oil on the i/o, etc.  I'm not 
as mechanically inclined as I'd like to be and am nervous about making
costly mistakes.

Jeff

PS  Reg, I d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y would like to go out with u on the Merrimack
when I get the boat back.  

    
    	question :
    
    	anyone know a source for the blocks the prop shops use
    	to ensure proper alignment during/after repair ?
    
    	it's a question for someone who has been doing prop repair
    	but wants to ensure his quality delivered to customers.
    
    	He's having very little luck finding the source of the 
    	blocks ... 
    
    	I can't figure out any trade rags that would help ... and of
    	course local repair shops are not about to point him in the 
    	right direction.
    
    					- Ed

	It might be worth contacting a major prop manufacturer directly;
Mercruiser, Federal, Michigan Wheel, etc. 

	Reg

    I'm guessing here too. But I saw in the 'Michigan Wheel' catalog the 
    blocks you mentioned. But can't recall if they were selling them or
    showing off their manufacturing prowess, etc.
    Dont have the ## either.

    Here is another vote for H&H Propeller Shop in Salem Mass. for repairs
    to props. My father winged a brand new Quicksilver Laser II SS prop on a
    submerged object. They "reconditioned" it ($110 - ouch) and it looks
    brand new (it is probably now my turn!!). Did it in 1 week. Good job,
    nice folks, good reference from this file.
    
    Larry

Moved by moderator.... 

           <<< FOUNDR::DISK$PAGE_SWAP1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOATS.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Powerboats >-
================================================================================
Note 1224.0      Preferred method for prop installation/removal       No replies
PASTA::DEMERS                                        10 lines  21-JUN-1995 08:23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I've been using the "2x4" method to hold my prop when I take it on and
    off.  After just paying dearly to have two props adjusted, primped,
    etc., I'm now wondering if I'm making an intitial contribution to prop
    breakdown by torquing the prop against the wood.  I do try to keep the
    piece near the hub and not out towards the tip of the prop, but
    anyway...
    
    Is there a better way?
    
    /Chris

Chris,

	Is your boat and outboard, I/O or inboard?

RIck

    OMC I/O.
    
    I take the board and wedge it against the cavitation plate.  If I
    remember correctly, the torque # is 75 ft/lbs.  
    
    /Chris

    Well, I reviewed the procedure in the tech manual and they show a photo
    with a block of wood wedged under the cav plate so that the tip of the
    prop catches and wedges itself under the plate.
    
    Guess I gotta go with that.
    
    /C