Conference vicki::boats

    They are somewhat different, I think mariner is made in canada,
    and merc n the USA.  I've got a friend with a mariner.  I'm sure 
    he wishes he had a merc, or some other brand.  He lost about 6 
    weeks this summer due to problems with the engine, and the dealer 
    and mariner not cooperating.  If you've got a choice, I'ld go with
    merc.

    My 2 cents worth......   my only choice would be Yamaha or Johnson.
    
    In that order.	Not MERC or Mariner.

    re .-1
    
    Agree 110% with you!

    something you might want to keep in mind is that the smaller mariners
    are Yamahas the larger are Mercury (over 40hp). Several friends
    of mine have mariner and are ver satisfied . Evinrude and Johnson
    are the identical motor all built OMC . The motor of choice should
    depend on what size you need and what you expect to do with it.
    I now have a 90hp Evinrude on a bass boat and am very satisfied
    , prior to that I had two Mercs( 140hp and 20 hp ) and was very
    happy with both. The 140 was on a 20' boat which spent 98% of it's
    time in saltwater , I never had any problems with that motor in
    10 years, I ran it year round as I was living in Fla at the time
    
    

    ...on evinrude/johnson, have had one that worked great for 17 years
    then we sold it because we needed a bigger one. Right now my family
    has one Evinrude 120 and one 5 and one Johnson 70, all great. Our
    Yamaha was great for five years, then no more...same maintenance
    and winterizing routines as for the other ones....And my friends
    are always spending hours to get the f***ing mercury engine cover
    off without loosing all the parts into the deep cold water.
    
    OMC forever!
    
    Magnus
    

    re: .2 & .3 
    Yeah, yeah yeah. diesel also. I'm concerned with Merc & Mariner.

    Back in 86 when I owned a Mariner Dealership the breakdown was like
    this.
    
    2         Yamaha
    4           "
    5           "
    8           "
    9.9         "
    15          "
    20        Merc
    25        Merc
    30        Yamaha
    40          "
    45 and up to 2000 were Mercs
    
    in 87 the 9.9 was changed to Merc everthing elee as in 86. 
    
    I'm not sure what it is now, Check with a mariner dealer.
    
    Are you repowering or buying a whole boat?
    
                                          Walt
    

    lets narrow it down a little. I'm looking at the 135, 150 & 200
    range motors in a twin setup. thanx.
    
    Rick

    Where can I get one of those 2000 hp mercs?  ;^)

    re: .7
    Walt, I'm buying new. I'd like to have a twin setup with Yams but
    cost prohibits that, so I'm looking at Mercs and Mariners. I just
    got off the phone with the service mangler at Mellon Marine and
    he pretty much concurrs with you. the smaller mariners are Yams,
    the smaller mercs are mercs and the larger mariners are mercs.
    Thanks.
    
    Rick
    
    p.s. the boat I'm looking at is the 24' Privateer Delaware cabin.

    Why Not?
    
    Hey I made a TYPO big deal. It is 200 TWo Hundred HP.
    
    They Navy Does have a 24 ftr with 2000 HP that does in excess of
    120 kts ( No Typo) I'd like to get one of those govt surplus.
    
    24 Priveteer is a nice boat. Might be a bit over powered with twin
    200's. 
    
    All the major motor co. are good , I boils down to what you want
    to pay and what you want to do with it.
    
    Oh. I would rigg the 24 ft with a 150 and a 15 kicker. Just my
    preferance.
    
                                                Walt
    

    Walt, currently i've got a 150 with a 9.9 (mercs) on a 20' searay
    center console. I think a 150 might be underpowering the Privateer
    alittle. If i go with a single engine it will probubly be the 200
    and throw the 9.9 on as a kicker. the privateer is rated for 304hp
    so twin 200 is out but 135's would do the trick.
    
    Rick

    Twin 135's would be nice if you can afford them.  But you'll be
    spending more on gas and cutting down on your range.  Go with a
    200 (yam/johnson/evinrude/merc/mariner) for the best  performance
    for the $$$.  I've got a 24 Grady with a 200 yam.  Not a fast boat
    but I burn 7 gal/hr at 20 kts.  There were a few 24 GW's where I
    bought the boat with twin 200's or twin 135's.  both burned from 12
    to 15 gph.  Both also blew me out of the water when it was relatively
    calm.  Point is if economy and range are your priority, go with 1
    big one.  If you want speed, go with 2.  Reliability should not
    be an issue for at least 5 years with new engines.  After that,
    the twins get to be a little more $$$ for maintenance and rebuilds.
    If I had the money when I bought the boat, I probably would've done
    the twin 135 yams and added the extra 55 gal fuel tank.  Of course
    if I had the money I'ld probably have gotten a bigger boat :-)...
    
    Joe A.

    Rick,
    
      My $02 worth...having just joined the true blue water boat club
    and having about 2 years worth of looking to move up experience
    behind me I say slap on a 225HP YAM or Johnson. I know you said
    cost is an issue but a single YAM has got to be less expensive
    than twin 135 mercs?? Joe and I test drove a robalo with twin
    200 hp Johnsons on a bracket and the set up was quiter than Joes
    single YAM...something to thing about. Anyway...go with a large
    single, you will save at the gas dock and still get a 20+ knot
    cruise, and lets face it, how often is the weather good enough
    to cruise much faster than 25 knots?  In my new grady I decided
    to find the bigest I/O I could (330 OMC) as opposed to twin
    200 outboats. I get the power and a lot of torque in this engine
    that will allow me to cruise at 23 knots in a 3-4' sea and burn
    about 12 gall/hour instead of 14-15.
    
    Capt. Codfish

    Yup.
    Like bruce said ,Brackets are the way to go if your going outboard
    or Sea Drive like I told you about. 
    Why? The bracket or Sea Drive does a couple of things.
    
    1) It increase's the effective waterline of the boat so that a 21
    ft like I mentioned will act like a 23 ft in operation. The leverage
    arm is increased and getting the prop out back away from hull
    cavitation; Increses the bite of the prop. Results are approx 15
    to 20% increse in proformance and fuel economy.
    
    2) A Sea Drive gets the enging out of the boat, This give you a
    lot more useable space than a outboard or I/O. Again it's like
    getting a bigger boat for the bucks.
    
    3) The Sea Drive and Some Brackets allow you to tilt the motor
    COMPLETELY out of the water. This is just what you want if you moor
    to prevent corosion and it allows easy access for any repairs.
    
    The though has crossed my mind more than once recently to trade
    down from my new 30 to a cimmeron 21 with Sea Drive. Not that I
    don't like Rainbow Chaser, It's just that a smaller boat is more
    versital. Maybe I'll do both?
    
    4) Another Advantage is No winterization hassels with the Sea Drive
    I could be out fishing today? Or Diving? 
    
                                            Walt
    

    Actually Walt, what I was advocating was how quiet the new looper
    Johnsons are, not sea drives. I would have choosen a convensional
    twin outboard set up over sea drives on the grady if I went the
    out board route. On larger boats the amount of lost cockpit space
    with outboards is much smaller than a smaller boat. Sea drives look
    great until you get in the boat and stand behind them and look aft.
    
    Bruce

    looks like I started something here. O.K. While we're at it. What
    about brackets vs transom.
    
    transom - easier to fight fish under boat.
    
    bracket - increased performance/efficiency
    
    Rick

    There's a whole series of notes on brackets vs transom somewhere
    in here.  Pos's and neg's for each.  Take a look for that note.
    Also there was a series of articles last year on the merits of each, 
    but i forget which magazine had it.  Anybody remember which magazine?

    The fisherman had a couple of articles. The main advatage I see
    to brackets is they are quieter. I am not totally convinced about
    the performance arguements, I have heard they do not turn as well.
    They definitly cost more, from 1-3k depending on the boat.
    
    Capt. Codfish

    By getting the engine way out back they have a better bite on solid
    water, not from the wake of the boat. They run in the first wake
    wher the water swells upward so the run higher on the transom.
    
    The turning is the same for a 21 ft boat with brackets and a 23
    ft boat with transom mount outboards. Part of increasing the waterline.
    
    Joe Huh? I ment that if I was running and outboard or seadrive that
    I would not run the risk of a cracked block due to Ice. Last year
    I had my outboard out in early feb with a cooler full of "Natural"
    Ice onboard ,An Inboard or I/O can't run with out being kept warm
    by an electric heater in mid winter. Those boats you see that run
    all year use block heaters. 
    
    I would love to get down to the Danvers river next year or maybe
    the annisquam. They don't have to take in all the docks due to Ice
    like in the Merrimack. I don't clean my bottom often though.
    
    Brackets cost more . True . But compare the cost of a larger boat,
    Usually around $2 K per ft. Then add the cost of a larger trailer,and
    more bottom paint and it more than makes up the diff.
    
                                             Walt
    

    I agree about the inboard or i/o with raw water and cracked blocks.
    If you have fresh water cooling, I'ld imagine you could get some
    extra anti freeze protection.  BTW, the Danvers freezes up real
    solid in Jan.  The guys across from me have the bubblers tho, and
    they stay in year round.  But the ice up at the top of this river
    is nothing compared to the ice up the mk.

    I have closed loop cooling with antifreeze in the block, Still you
    get raw water in the manifolds and in the raw water pump and lines
    so it's nessasary to have a heater in there. It's to dam cold for
    me anyway so it's a moot argument.
    
    One of my projects this winter is to install an off the block heater
    for the cabin, So I'll be nice and toasty on those early spring
    late fall days. I'm also getting one of those little 5,200. btu
    ceramic heaters for at the dock.
    
    If I moved down to danvers I could keep the boat in all winter,
    Any info on slip prices? Its 48 ft at City Boat works and a friend
    called to tell me it went up to $88 ft at Cape Ann Marina.
    
                                                 Walt
    

    So we are going off the subject a little...
    
    I have done a considerable amount of calling for slip prices around
    danvers. Port Marine (where Joe is, and where I will be) is $70/foot
    year round. Danversport Yacht Club (pool, tennis courts, bar) is
    $55/foot plus a $300 membership fee, no dry winter storage, wet
    winter storage is $35/foot. Danvers Yacht Inc. is $65/foot with
    a 32' minimum. Moving down the river to beverly, Port is up to
    $120/foot year round, Tuck Point Marina is $85/foot with a 30' minimum.
    Glover Wharf will be around $80/foot.
    
    If you have winter storage, danversport yacht club is the best deal
    and nicest facility, showers, landry, pool,tennis, bar etc. Port
    Marine is the cheapest but also has the least facilities. Also
    remember the 3 bridges you must pass under to get down to beverly
    from danvers. This is now an issue for me in the Grady when it wasn't
    in the Chris. The beverly/salem railroad bridge has about a 5 foot
    clearance at mean high water. GOD PLEASE LET ME REMEMBER TO LOWER
    THOSE SHAEFFER OUTRIGGERS!!!  
    
    Capt Close_on_the_grady_monday Codfish
    

    Seeing as the prices are so outragous ( Hey there's a name for the
    grady bruce) I think I'll stay at the Boat works. Sure it has a
    bridge too, But I'll clear even when I get my tower rigged. It's
    38 ft high. 
    Why don't we all chip together and buy our own marina? It's getting
    to be that it would acctually be cheaper.
    
                                                     Walt
    

	Getting back to the original subject, or close to it, since the Merc
vs Mariner identification seems to be a non issue, I feel the decision should 
be based on such things as price and, more importantly, service. I'd go with
the dealer I felt most comfortable with.
	On the more subjective issues raised here, I'd like to add my $.02.
The choice between *MAJOR* brands should not follow party lines. It should
rather be a choice of the individual candidates and in this case it means
a particular size or pair of motors. (Please excuse the political analogy).
For the purpose of this note I am considering *MAJOR* brands to be Merc/Mariner
Evenrude/Johnson and Yamaha. (I intentionally left out Chrysler/Force) 
	Each manufacturer makes quality products but they make certain design 
decisions that effect the product and may make it more suitable for one 
purpose than another. These decisions are not necessarily across the board, 
they are more often model specific. If this were not the case then all models 
would be multi cylinder, fuel injected, oil injected, loop charged, etc etc. 
Total brand loyalty assumes that the entire line of brand X is better than 
brand Y and I don't buy it. This approach limits one more by emotion than 
actual analysis.
	I currently own a 2hp Evenrude, an 8hp Mariner (Yamaha), a 25hp Merc, 
and a 200hp Mariner and guess what - I like them all. I have always owned
Fords and liked them: this year I saw some improvements in the GMC trucks so
I bought one and guess what - I like it.

Paul

 2 points:

  1:  My shop manual for a 90 hp engine has "MERCURY/MARINER" on the cover
	I take this to mean the difference is in the paint job.

  2:  In this note I read a lot about a single engine being more economical
	than twins.  "Motorboats and Sailing" magazine had an article this past 
	issue about powering with singles or twins.  Singles have a significant
	edge on fuel economy when operated at high speed,  twins have definite
	advantage in handling, and you can get back most of your economy by 
	shutting down one engine when you aren't in a hurry.  Most importantly
	you have redundancy in twins such that you can still get home in less
	than ideal conditions (how much good is 9.9 when your trying to get 
	home in a squall?).  Bottom line, if you can afford the expense of
	the initial price and addd maintenance costs, the cost of operation is
	slightly more, but need not be twice that of a large single.


		Al