Conference vicki::boats

      
    
       HA! HA! HA!  Did you forget how or something?!  :>)
    
    Yes, I need to know this too....somebody please help us!
    
    Jeanne
    

    Rick.
    If I recall correctly? You have an I/O right? Simply-
    1) Change all lubricants, with fresh stuff. Oil & Grease.
    2) Change Anti freese in the cooling sys if FW cooled and/or Blow
       out all water from engine and manifolds.
    3) Clean all hull drain holes and leave open.
    4) Stabilise fuel tanks with STA-BIL or simmiler product.
    5) Pump any blackwater tanks and fill with antifreeze
    6) Pump any potable water tanks and fill with poatable anti freeze.
    7) Remove and store batterys
    8) Remove and grease and replace prop.
    9) Tighten every nut,boat,and screw on the boat.
    10) if on a trailer. Jack it up and block the axle.
    11) cover the whole thing with a tarp,or canvas boat cover.
    
                                           Good luck 
    
                                           Walt
    

    
    	OK, I did the double take when I saw .0
    
    	Last night I helped a young lady load her PWC at Quinsiggy,
    she took it up the ramp and started the engine again.  Instinctively
    I wanted to yell at her to not do that, but she seemed to know what
    she was doing, just blowing the water out in case we get an early
    frost, I guess.
    
    	I did read something in a Supra publication about Springerizing,
    it said to reinstall the pump impeller.  I didn't realize that they
    were supposed to be taken out and stored, do Correct Correct Craft
    owners do this too ?

    	Reg
    

    
    Park it out back.  Repair any cracked blocks, frozen or rusted
    parts, or ripped upholstery in the spring.   8^)
    

    
    re: Walt... I think I have an Onboard motor.. :-)
    
    re: Reg,
    
    		Yep correct Correct Craft owners do remove
    and disassemble the impeller, otherwise it would set and
    harden during the winter. Now about the incorrect owners,
    I guess they'd leave it assembled... :-)
    
    Rick  .....   :-) to the n power.....
    
    

                  Basic Procedures for Winterizing a Powerboat









           In areas where winter  temperatures  drop  below  freezing,

           care  must  be  exercised  in  storing  a powerboat for the

           winter.  Severe damage or premature aging of the engine and

           boat can occur if correct procedures are not followed prior

           to saying  "goodbye"  to  the  boat  until  spring.   These

           procedures are known as "winterization" or "laying up".



           The steps involved are relatively simple, easy  to  perform

           and  will  guarantee  an  intact  and operational boat when

           spring arrives.   A  general  knowledge  of  powerboats  is

           useful, but not required.



           These instructions are meant for boats  powered  by  all  3

           common  variations  of  motors:   inboards,  outboards  and

           inboard/outboards(I/Os).  Where  differences  in  procedure

           exist  between the variations they are noted, otherwise the

           procedures are the same for all 3 types of motors.



           The procedures listed here are general in nature and should

           be used in conjunction with the owners manual.  Information

           specific to a particular brand of motor can be found in the

           owners  manual.   References  to  the owners manual will be

           made in this document.



           Items needed:



           Paste Wax



           Mild detergent



           Armor-all vinyl protectant



           Gas stabilizer (found at the local marina)



           Garden Hose



           Flushing "Earmuffs" (I/Os and outboards only)



           Mystery oil or fogging spray



           Water resistant grease



           Lower Unit Lubrication (I/Os and outboards only)



           WD-40



           The procedures are divided  into  3  separate  sections  as


                                                      Page 2





           follows:



           I.  Boat



           II.  Motor



           III.  Trailer



           I.  Boat section.



           This  section  refers  to  Fiberglas   boats   only.    The

           maintenance



           of wooden boats is not intended to be covered.  There are 3

           basic steps



           to prepare the boat, itself for storage.



           1.  Wash.



           Wash the entire boat thoroughly with a mild detergent,



           warm water and a soft sponge.  Washing should include



           the underside of the hull also.



           N
           NOTE:  The underside of the hull is cleaned



           with ease if it is washed immediately



           after the boat is removed from the water.



           2
           2.  Wax.



           Using a good paste wax, such as that used for



           cars, wax all Fiberglas surfaces as directed



           by the wax manufacturer.



           3.  Interior care.



           Seats, padding and any vinyl surface need to be



           protected for the winter, also.  This can be done



           using a product such as Armor-all.  This spray is



           applied liberally to all vinyl surfaces then



           wiped dry with a soft clean cloth.


                                                      Page 3





           II.  Motor Section.



           The motor is the most expensive part of the boat and



           generally the most costly to repair.  The following



           steps will protect your motor and insure a working



           piece of machinery when spring arrives.



           1.  Replace the crankcase oil and oil filter



           (see owners manual).



           2.  If your boat has onboard, permanent gas tanks, or



           you plan on leaving removable gas tanks in



           an environment of varying temperatures,



           fill the gas tank(s) with gasoline and add



           the appropriate amount of gas stabilizer.



           Specifications for gas to stabilizer ratios



           can be found on the bottle of stabilizer.



           Filling the tanks addresses two issues.  Firstly,



           it keeps condensation in the tank to a



           minimum.  Secondly, it will keep rust from forming



           in your gas tank(s).



           3.  Run and fog the motor.



           a.  Running the Motor.



           Running the motor while the boat is out



           of the water can only be done safely



           if water is provided to the motor.



           Inboards:  Disconnect the water pickup



           hose from the bottom of the



           boat (see owners manual for


                                                      Page 4





           actual location) and insert



           garden hose.



           Outboards and I/Os:  Use flushing "earmuffs"



           in conjunction with garden hose.



           N
           Note:  Setup garden hose prior to



           starting motor but turn on



           water after motor is running.



           W
           WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING



           R                               W
           RUNNING THE MOTOR WITHOUT WATER WILL



           C
           CAUSE PERMANENT AND SEVERE DAMAGE!!!



           b
           b.  Fogging the Motor.



           Fogging is stalling the motor by pouring oil



           into the carburetor(s).  Mystery oil or



           fogging spray can be used.



           With the motor running slowly introduce the oil



           or spray into the carburetors until the



           engine stalls.



           N
           Note:  In many cases you'll have



           to disconnect the gas line



           to stall the motor completely.



           4.  Remove the propeller, clean propeller shaft,



           regrease shaft and re-install propeller.



           5.  Lower unit maintenance for outboard and I/Os only.



           Drain the lower unit and install new grease.



           There are 2 screw-in plugs on the side



           of the outdrive (see owners manual).


                                                      Page 5





           Remove both plugs to drain outdrive.



           Refill outdrive by squirting unit



           lubrication into the lower hole until



           it comes out the top hole then replace



           the top screw to hold the new grease



           inside until you get the bottom plug



           back in also.



           6.  Drain all water from the motor's cooling system.



           Outboards should drain themselves as long



           as the lower unit is down and



           lubrication has been changed.



           I/Os and inboards:  Remove all drain petcocks,



           if the motor has them and/or



           remove all cooling hoses and



           drain.



           W
           WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING



           C
           Consult owners manual!!!  If water remains



           i
           in the motor SEVERE DAMAGE can occur!!!!



           7
           7.  For Inboard and possibly I/O engines, disassemble



           the water impeller according to the owner's



           manual.  This keeps the rubber impeller from



           seizing over the winter.



           8.  Clean and remove the battery.  Store battery in a warm



           place.



           9.  Wipe down entire motor with an oily rag and spray



           unpainted engine parts with WD-40.


                                                      Page 6





           III.  Trailer section.



           1.  Wash and wax as specified for boat in boat section.



           2.  Lubricate trailer wheel bearings (see owners manual



           for details on your specific trailer).



           3.  Once the boat is in it's final winter resting place,



           jack up trailer and place on jackstands.  This



           lengthens the life of the trailer springs and



           keeps a flat tire from ruining the rim and or tire.



           Finally



           1) Kiss the boat goodbye, shed a tear or two and



           promise him you'll see him in a few months.



           Unless, of course your boat is female, then



           substitute the correct pronoun.

    I know when my boat is winterized they fill the block with antifreeze.
    Any clue how this is done? I have an i/o.
    
    Bruce

    re .6	Bleah !  Thats 632 lines of winterizing if I get a new
    one AND don't sell the old one 'til the spring, (worst case, there
    are some if_then_elses in there).
    
    	Rick,
    
    	Glad you got the "Correct Correct Craft owners" point.
    	Is there a way to just drain the block in case there's a frost,
    and NOT load it up with anti-freeze in the hope that Indian summer
    comes ?  I HAVE a block heater in the Sea Ray, this is in case I
    err, ummm, spend indiscriminately before spring.

    	Reg
    

    re .7	I connect a small hose and funnel to the tube of the
    block drain, disconnect the top hose to let the air out, then fill
    the block with anti-freeze mix from the block drain. - Works well.
    
    	R
        

    The Mercruiser Owner guide says to disconnect the hoses at the intake
    to the block and manifold and pour the antifreeze into the block
    and manifold until each is full (after draining of course).  It
    seems that this way could run into problems with trapped air inside
    the block preventing the antifreeze from displacing small pockets
    of trapped water. 
    
    As suggested, filling it from the drain up makes more sense and
    is a point well made!
    
    This is my first season with a Mercrusier, and I notice that the
    manual also reccomends removing the outdrive to grease the universal
    joints and driveshaft splines.  However, both the owners manual
    and the "third party" shop manual I bought talk about the need to
    re-align the outdrive/motor when reinstalling the outdrive.
    
    My question(s) is:  Is this step "common practice", and if it is,
    would just pulling the outdrive through the alignment out?  Looking
    at the relationship between the parts in the manual it seems you
    remove the 6 bolts and pull...grease the bearing in the bell housing
    ,U-joints and spline and reinsert...Since your putting it back where
    it came from where does the mis-alignment come from?
    
    Of course, you find out all the answers when you have a wrench in
    your hand!  Maybe someone whos done this before can enlighten me
    before I learn it the "hard" way.
    

    The outdrive should be removed to grease the universal joints. Be
    sure and use the right grease which can withstand hi tempature and
    presure. As far as the alignment goes it usually is not a problem.
    If the boat is a couple of years old the rear engine mounts begin
    to sag a little and this is when the alignment starts to go out.
    If you have trouble getting the outdrive back on you may want to
    check the rear motor mounts. If you replace them you will need the
    alignment tool to realign the outdrive. Also when you remove the
    drive you will need to replace a gasket and two O rings. These and
    the grease are available at any mercruiser dealer. By the way what
    happens when the drive becomes misaligned is you wear the large
    bearing that the shaft slides into. Sevear misalignment might damage
    the shaft and the coupling on the fly wheel. Not greasing the universal
    joints will cause them to wear and may cause damage to the gears
    in the outdrive (big bucks to fix ).
    	One more thing if the boat is a few years old you should replace
    the the impeller lift pump which is located between the two halfs
    of the lower unit. You should use the manual to do this or have
    the dealer do it. 
    Hope this helps,
    Rich.                                    
    

    re .10	The alignment tool.   This thing is over $100, but seems
    to be roughly equivalent to the automotive clutch alignment bar/rod
    that sells for only a few bucks.  I could get some (say a dozen)
    made up *_IF_* we could get a master to copy, or if we could get
    the critical dimensions from .....????.  The principle ones are
    for Mercruiser and OMC, I assume they're different.  Alternatively,
    we could split the cost 6 or so ways and invest in one, as in "share
    it", we're all trusting, altruistic folks, right ?   How would the
    rest of you feel about setting up some kind of a  "special tools box"
    that we could share ?
    
    	Reg	{ but I/Os may not be a significant part of my future :-^)}

    A comment about filling the fuel tanks. 
    
    When in the water a boat is supported by the entire hull resting
    in a nice conforming "Cradle" of water. When you pull the boat and
    put it on jack stands, cradle or trailer it has much less surface
    area to support the wieght.
    
    If I were to fill my fuel tanks 200 gals at roughly 6 lbs per gal.
    That would add 1200 additional pounds that would need support.
    
    Glass hull Sag. The resin in the hull never really completly hardens.
    if it did it would crack into powder. 
    
    Hint: Keep the boat as light as possible. With minimum fuel, Water
    ect in tanks and off load everything you can prior to storage.
    
    Any Rebuttals?
    
                                               Walt
    

    
    	re. Glass sag & 1200 lbs, yes I guess so.  How
    hypothetical/theoretical is this though ?   I imagine/assume that
    the fuel weight is distributed and that the hull is designed for
    worst case load carrying on the trailer across bumpy roads and down
    even bumpier ramps and beaches.  At a guess most of us launch with
    full tank(s) most of the time, so how much worse is it to sit out
    the winter with full tanks ?  I'd guess that the hull and trailer
    designers KNOW that we like to store our boats with full tanks too,
    as I say, its a guess.
    
    	Reg
    
    {Not really disagreeing, just wondering if it matters THAT much.}

    Rebuttle:
      I'll keep mine topped off, thank you. (20 gal in 23 gal tank plus
    stablizer) I have a drive on trailer with excellent support, so
    I'm not worried about it. I am worried about condensation and
    explosions. (i.e. gas fumes being more volatile than gas) besides,
    what if gas prices go up, stock up now, huh?
    Doug.
    By The Way: don't forget to blow out the speedometer tubes, an often
    neglected item.

    re .15	Arrrggh, I have to blow mine out every time I use the boat -
    but I'd thought they just drained anyway as the boat comes up the
    ramp.
    
    	I would like some more info on your speedo that DOESN'T HAVE
    a tube, it seemed interesting.  Was it original equipment ?, I thought
    you had two air tube speedos, AS WELL.  Is it an AWSA requirement
    to have two air tube speedos, but an accuracy/reliability feature
    to have the paddle-wheel one ?  {and where's the nearest Malibu
    dealer anyway ?, maybe I should check out the prices before I.....}

    	Reg
    
    {BTW, its still tough to think about winter yet.  We had PERFECT
    conditions at Quinsiggy on monday night - 70 degree water, 76 degree
    air, no wind, almost no traffic, Bah, does it have to end so soon ?}

    Rick What's an "Onboard" does it sit on the deck or somthing?
    Just kidding . I know you ment inboard. Mine is too.
    
    A Tangentel Question??- Does anyone heve inwaterstorage for the
    winter? Any comments on it's merits, or liabilities?
    
    
                                         Walt
    
    

    Reply to .12 I have an alignment tool and would be willing to lend
    it out but since I'am in New Jersey and most of you are in Mass
    it would have to be mailed. The tool ways about 20 lb and all it
    really is, is a spline on one end and a handle on the other. If
    you could get a spline from an old outdrive it would work just as
    well. Anyone interested in borrowing mine send me mail at KYOA::Helmke
     
    Reply to .13 I think the damage that may result from condinsation,from
    empty gas tanks is more probable than the chance of structural damage
    from the weight. A cradle designed for the boat would be a good
    solution.
    
    Reply to .16 I have a friend who stores his boat in water and has
    never had a problem. He uses a bubble system to keep water from
    freezing around the boat. He still has to pull it out once a year
    to clean and paint the bottom but since he lives on the water he
    saves winter storage fees.

    re .18	Oh, so simple, s'pose I could have thought it through.
    Getting my hands on a junk outdrive just so that I can hack off
    the spline up to the first U-joint sounds like less fun and more
    trouble than buying or making the tool.  *_IF_* my boat doesn't
    sell in the next couple or three weeks I'll probably take the outdrive
    off, mic' everything and see what I can come up with;  it probably
    doesn't HAVE TO HAVE a spline, the diameter across the tooth roots
    ("Gums" ?) would work fine, then a chamfered step to the next diameter,
    yeah we can do that easily enough.  {Even if I *_DO_* sell it I'll
    probably have to winterize it for the new owner anyway, so I might
    as well get a tool made up.}
    
    	Reg	{Machine shop hobby'ist}

    What's the big concern with 'Condensation" in the fuel, With the
    quality of gas as it is I find myself draining the water/fuel separator
    about every 4-6 weeks anyway. usually get from a cup to a pint of
    water each time.
    
    I have Alum fuel tanks so rust is not a problem, Most newer boats
    have Alum or plastic. They tanks shouldn't get much more condensate
    over the winter than they do in between fills in the summer.
    
    The extra wieght that can cause a hull to warp is much more serious
    and  costly to repair than cleaning a water separator and filter
    a few times.
    
                                           Walt
    
    

    re. gas tanks<>winter storage
    
    A friend of mine told me that when he stored his boat at a marina
    years back-...that the marina REQUIRED that all boats to be topped off 
    prior to winter storage.
    
    /MArk

     The following is reprinted (without permision) from The Water Skier,
    (official publication of AWSA) by Jeff Smith:
    
    Winterizing an inboard:
    When boating and skiing during the summer are still fresh in your
    mind, why winterize your inboard? If you live in the South, you
    probably never have to. But in the North, winterization BEFORE cold
    weather moves in is vital. If done correctly, your ski boat will
    be protected and ready to go next season. If done incorrectly, you
    could be looking at major engine damage.
      Every year we see dismayed people who: 1)waited too long to winterize
    their boat; 2)winterized it incorrectly; 3)claim they didnot know
    how impoteant it was to winterize their boat, or 4)de-winterized
    their boat too early in the spring.
      If possible, have your servicing dealer winterize the boat for
    you. A dealer should be experienced and trained to do the best job
    possible. Also, in our experience most insurance companies will
    not cover damage caused by incorrect winterization and that can
    be costly!
      But since many people prefer to do the winterization themselves,
    these guidelines for inboard ski boats should make the job smooth
    and trouble-free. JUST BE SURE TO REFER TO YOUR ENGINE OWNERS MANUAL.
    
    Pull the boat out:
    Get your boat out of the water BEFORE the weather gets bad. Many
    people leave the boat in the water, thinking they will use it one
    more time before the season ends. It likely will sit four to six
    weeks and often this is where trouble begins: condensation in the
    distributor cap and fuel; corrosion of points; a dead battery. These
    things are better found now rather than next spring.
      Always use quality products when protecting an investment such
    as your boat. Supplies you will need include:
      New oil                 oil filter wrench
      New oil filter          9/16" wrench or socket
      Quality antifreeze      screw driver
      Gas stabilizer          1/2" wrench
      Transmission fluid      1/2" drive ratchet
      Fogging oil spray       5/8" wrench
      Lubricating grease      3/8" wrench
    
      You may need to modify the the following procedure, depending
    on the type of inboard.
      1) Put gas stabilizer and gas in boat, leaving room for expansion
    in the tank. Gas expansion can be hazardous and overflow could ruin
    the boat's finish.
      2) Run boat. Bring the engine up to operating temperature. This
    is best done with the boat in the water rather than on the trailer.
    This will alert you to problems now rather than in the spring.
      3) Put boat on trailer. If it is in good running order, pull the
    the drain plug and drain all the water. Place the plug in a secure
    and visible place (such as the top of the engine intake manifold).
      4) Drain oil from crankcase.
      5) Remove and replace oil filter. Make sure the old filter gasket
    was removed. Put a light coat of oil on the new oil filter gasket
    to help gasket seat on block.
      6) Replace new oil to manufacturer's specifications on dip stick.
      7) Drain all water from engine block, exhaust manifolds, water
    carrying hoses and transmission cooler.
      8) Replace all engine drain plugs, hoses, exhaust plugs and
    transmission cooler plug. (reversal of step 7)
      9) The water intake hose should be left disconnected and used
    as a fill hose for antifreeze.
    IF YOUR BOAT IS EQUIPPED WITH A GAS SHUT OFF LINE, SHUT OFF GAS
    NOW. For the next step, a few extra hands are helpful.
      10) Start engine while pouring antifreeze into water intake hose.
    At the same time, spray fogging oil into carburator. Continue both
    procedures until antifreeze is gone. Shut off engine. Reconnect
    water pick-up hose.
      11) To double check for complete penetration of antifreeze, unscrew
    drainplugs slowly. You should see antifreeze trickle out.
      12) If antifreeze drips from each drain plug, the entire engine
    is winterized. Tighten all drain plugs.
      13) With a light spray grease, lubricate wear points and cable
    sleeves.
      14) Remove battery from battery compartment and store in a dry
    place above freezing temperature. Make sure battery is fully charged
    before storing and check it throughout the off-season.
      15) Disconnect the speedometer line going to the head of the
    speedometer (usually behind the dash) and the line going to the
    pick-up in the back of the boat. Blow out the lines by mouth or
    with low-pressure air, until water no longer comes out opposite
    end. If remaining water freezes inside the thinwall, brass stabilizer
    tube, it will split the tube. This may go unnoticed  until spring
    when the speedometers will be inoperable.
      16) Reconnect the speedometer system.
    
    Outboards and I/Os
    For outboards and I/Os, some procedures differ. Some I/Os have closed
    cooling systems while others do not. They also have lower units
    that must be checked for water contamination, which could mean bad
    seals in the outdrive. Consult your local dealer and engine manual
    for outboards and I/Os, as well as inboards.
      If you do not feel confident about doing winterization yourself,
    have a reputable servicing dealer do it. He could save you money
    in the long run.
    
    Jeff Smith operates Silver Spray Sports Water Ski Pro Shop and Marina,
    a Correctcraft dealership in Fenton, Mich.
    
    *************  END OF ARTICLE  *******************
    
    *Disclaimer: Although I personally don't agree with everything the
    author stated, and I feel he left out a few details, He did bring
    up some very good points. If everyone continues to enter winterizing
    info, we can all benefit and extract all procedures that apply to
    each of us.. Too much info is always better than not enough.
    Doug.
    

    One trick I have learned for those of us that want to extend the
    season past the begin of nights with frost and then again get an
    early jump in march/april. If you have an i/o you can put a
    high wattage light bulb (150 watt out door spots are great) in
    you engine box and turn it on at night. This will generate some
    heat for you engine and keep the temps above freezing. This
    is good for peace of mind for those october nights that head down
    into the high 20's but the days are still fishable in the 50's.
    
    So far this has worked for me the last 2 winters/springs.
    
    Bruce

    
    reply to .20, i disagree with the statement you make, "the tanks
    shouldn't get much more condensate in the winter than in between
    fills in the summer", for one thing i don't think you drain the
    fuel/water separators in the winter, also once you did, you would
    not find any more there, as no fuel would be passing thru them.
    if you leave your tanks less than full, that space will be occupied
    by water, (condensation) the one thing your not considering is
    that when a boat is covered in the winter, it sweats, the
    temperature fluctuates greatly, because of the winter cover.
    at night it drops severely, as compared to the temp during the
    day.
    
    on the cup to a pint of water your draining, are you sure your
    putting fuel in, when you go to fuel it, or do you always run
    with less than half tanks, allowing for a greater condensation
    build up???????
    
    on the aluminum fuel tanks, i can tell you that your are not 
    anodized, ever seen what happens to aluminum thats exposed
    to the enviornment when it gets wet then dries....
    
    IT EXODIZES.........  i'd recommend you take some precautions
    unless you don't mind replacing fuel filters a lot.
    
    
    happy fueling.
    
    jim.

    Well I'm convinced that the best winterizingpossible is simply to
    chart a course down the intracostal to Fla., Being that little things'
    in life prevent me from doing this come fall; I'll settle for second
    best and wrap her up for a couple of months.
    
    re: fuel. Yes I usually only fill the tanks for an offshore run.
    I figure it conserves fuel not to carry a lot of extra wieght when
    I don't have to. Hence this leads to blowing the shitter on embarkation
    and keeping a poti water reserve of only what I plan to use. After
    all why carry it if you don't have to.
    
    I'd also like to mention somthing I learned the hard way a few years
    ago on a runabout. Always take down any canvas and cover the boat
    with a good tarp. I had left the canvas up with hope of just one
    more trip, And a premature snow landed while I slept. It colasped
    the tube frame and ripped a couple of snaps. luckly it was only
    a $500 stock factory canvas and not a custom job.
    
                                               Walt
    

    Who said "PLASTIC" fuel tanks????
    
    BEWARE---they crack, leak, have no ground strap and make boats go
    BOOOOOOM!!!!
    
    Seriously folks, these things are REAL dangerous. I'm talking about
    plastic permanent tanks, not portables. If you have one, check with
    the Coast Guard and have them check it out. Better yet, REPLACE
    it.

    Re: Impeller removal for inboards:
    Removal of rubber impeller is not required if you are filling your
    block with antifreeze. (which is recommended because cast iron block
    + air = RUST) 
    In the spring, please drain antifreeze RESPONSIBLY. (i.e. NOT into
    the lake!)
    D.W.
    

    Impeller removal - the real reason you should remove your water
    pump impeller for the long winter, is that being rubber and subject
    to cracking etc, it is much more likely to lose it "Memory" when
    confined in the pump housing.  You should winterize your engine
    with antifreeze etc, and somewhere in the process you should remove
    the water pump impeller, clean it, coat it with a lubricant such
    as armorall and store it in a plastic bag.  It may cost you a new
    gasket in the spring, but that a lot cheaper then the impeller!!!
    
    I know because I just did it yesterday (We pulled a little early
    this season).
    
    Happy Winterizing,
    Dave
    

    Somebodys's all wet here. (get it) 
    
    Anyway you don't need to remove the impeller, just rotate the 
    the pulley 1 revolution in the opposite direction, and the impeller
    vanes will be set in the oppoisite direction, therby avoiding
    any loss due to its stored position.
    I don't do this, i've gone to a preventative maintainance program,
    that is every season in addition to new filters, i also biff the
    pump impeller, all "v" belts and every other season i junk the 
    plug wires. You can argue all day, that it might be costly,
    actually its not, but i have no time during the season to 
    screw around with a $22. impeller, or a dumb ass set of plug
    wires. Everything has a life expectancy, i set my limits
    on the renewables and stick by it.
    
    jim.
    

    O.K., We've got three opinions; Remove the impeller and store it,
    Don't remove the impeller and pack it in antifreeze, and remove
    the impeller and throw it away. Any one else??
    

    
    How about :
  In order.  
    a. Remove impeller.
    b. Pack it in antifreeze.
    c. Store it in your freezer.
    d. Throw it away in the spring.
    
    :-)   :-)    :-)    :-)
    
    /Mike Smith
    
    

    I have a down payment on a new boat! (Grady White) which is due
    to arrive at the dealership in Nov.-Dec. The dealership 'pre-rigs'
    most of the ordered boats...shrink wraps the vessel...and stores
    her outside through the winter intil Spring delivery. This
    'pre-rigging' includes hanging the outboard.
     
    Reading this particular note leads one to believe that the impeller
    might be subject to conditions which may alter the performance of
    same....at a later date.- ? - Of course the dealer will insure that
    everything is operating (pumping) AOK prior to delivery....
    
    What do you guys think about this outside storage of a brandy new
    engine. This dealership does it every year for >20 yrs now.
    
    /MArk      (looking forward to Spring OBVIOUSLY!)
     

    re .32	MeThinks I wouldn't be able to restrain myself.  I'd
    HAVE_TO go get that boat out at least once, even in Nov/Dec, there's
    some nice weather up til mid dec, even later some years.
    
    	R
    

    Yea, It does take some self control. I've been looking at the Grady's
    for 2.5-3 years now drooling as one would pass by me in the Cape
    Ann (Mass.) area.  Well...anything worth having is worth waiting
    for. The boat is expected in Dec. as I said previously. I figure
    the whether will be quite cold then with possible snow on the ground.
    If I get the owners manuals to my electronics.....that should keep
    me busy for a few months. I've recently enrolled in an advanced
    costal navagation course as well. Don't want to be 100% dependant
    on the loran. I expect to put 'er over April 1st.
    
    DESCRIPTION:   1989 Grady White 204C (20 ft. w/ cuddy)
                        Full Custom Canvas & Swim Platform
                   1989 150 HP Yamaha Outboard
                   Lorrance X-50 LCG Fish Finder
                   Raytheon RayNav 570 Loran
                   Horizon Exployer II VHF
    
    and a host of other goodies...coast guard pkg,spare prop etc.
    
    I been patient for 3 yrs.//\\Whats a couple of months. 
    
    /MArk          (PLEASE: Don't tease me!! Patience is not my best
                                                                    quality.
                                                                   
     

    Congrats on your choice......
    
    I leave mine (25'Grady - twin 200 Johnson's) outside - after the
    dealer does yearly maint. etc.  This will be the 3rd year on the 
    impellers - no problems, but I will replace them at year end - per
    Mfg'ers recommendations. Also supported by the dealer.
    
    I wouldn't worry about storage outside. 
    
    BUT DON'T LEAVE THE CANVAS UP!!!  I did last year and regret it.
    The clear stuff gets real crappy and can't be cleaned... Oh well
    live and learn....
    
    Mike.  "Old Soul" 

Some experiences to share.

My 24' HydraSports cuddy...

I left my canvas up (but under the winter wraps) until an extremely heavy
wet snow collapsed my convertible top framework. Cost me $200 {special
price} to have it replaced in stainless steel. Now I remove all canvas.
The winter cover is supported by an A-frame, like a giant saw-horse.

The plastic sidescreens go in the house, where I clean them with Pledge
(non-lemon). This seems to do them a LOT of good; maybe some moisturizing
taking place? Five years old and they're perfect. I roll them up and
store them in the house until Spring.

The batteries come in the house for cleaning, specific gravity testing,
topping off with distilled water, and charging. I still believe and
follow the advice to "never store a battery on a cement floor" - They're
on a shelf under my work bench.

The Johnson 235, at 401 lbs+, stays outside on the transom. Winterizing
means cleaning, waxing, replace lower unit lube, fogging, oil squirted in
plug holes, CRC/WD40 shower for power head, and enveloped (not wrapped
tightly) in the winter cover.

It appears as though I have to remove the carbs to disconnect the top end
of the shift shaft, so I won't change the water pump myself.

Oh yeah... I dump non-toxic antifreeze in the bilge and live well.

The electronics come in so I can play with them B^)



Art

    On the subject of canvas tops & covers:
    
    A neighbor who lives around the corner from me had an attractive
    idea. He stores his 24' Grady White on the trailer, canvas removed,
    under a huge tarp stretched over a frame. He bolted some type of
    galvinized pipe fittings to the outside of the trailer frame to
    which he inserts the frame which supports the canvas:
                                             ^
                                            / \
                                           /   \
                                           |   |    looking at the trailer
                                           |   |      tongue toward you
    
    The frame is made of galvinized pipe and I believe there are 3 or
    4 such structures. He tood me that early in the season he can work
    on the teak etc. while under this tent like structure. He even had
    a small space heater in there to keep him company.
    
    ....Back on the subject of storing the boat with a full tank of
    gas on a trailer...........
    
       My question is...does the added weight of a full tank of gas
    coupled with the hull being supported ONLY by the trailer ROLLERS
    (not bunks) over the course of the winter place any stress on the
    hull which can be detrimental. I was thinking that you could
    get your boat situated on the trailer in its resting spot, block
    the wheels etc., jack up the boat off the rollers just a bit..and
    place some type of cradle underneath which would support the hull
    over a broader area as compared to just the points where the rollers
    would contact. ??  Please comment.
    
    /MArk
    
    
    
    

    
    Re: Merc outdrive removal...
    
       I have a Merc Alpha One outdrive and this is the first year that
    I'll be removing it myself. I've read "the book" and all seems
    relatively straightforward except one thing.
    
       The book describes setting up a sling to prevent the outdrive
    from falling out of your hands by attaching to something called
    (vaguely, the book is at home) the top cover attaching ring. Looking
    at the pictures, and thinking of how the outdrive looks, there's
    nothing there to hold the drive up.
    
       How do you'se guys (and gals) handle this?  About how much does
    the removable part of the outdrive weigh? Is this feasible as a
    one man job?
    
       Any help is appreciated.
    
    
    Frank
    

         I have the same kind of drive and if you follow the directions,
    its really easy, I was able to remove the out drive piece myself
    and then to put it back my son pushed while I turned the shaft from
    the engine to align the splines. The whole procedure took about
    45 mins. Just be sure to put the new gaskets in.

                              
Note 159.35              
        
>    BUT DON'T LEAVE THE CANVAS UP!!!  I did last year and regret it.
>    The clear stuff gets real crappy and can't be cleaned... Oh well
>    live and learn....
    
    Both 159.35 and 159.36 say not to leave the canvas up. Is the concern
    the frames getting bent, the clear plastic windows yellowing, or the
    canvas rotting.
    
    I've left my canvas on to keep the boat critter-tight. I have a tarp
    over the canvas, supported by a bow-to-stern frame. The frame keeps the
    weight of the snow off of the canvas frame, and it allows air to flow
    over the canvas. Has anyone had a problem with the canvas rotting ? If
    you remove the canvas then how do you keep snow-critters from turning
    your toy into a winter residence ?
    
    ~jeff 

    id snow critters = MICE.
    
    Leave an opened box of "moth balls" inside. they absolutely hate 
    
    the stuff..
    
    JIm.

	I'm still  "temporary'izing"  at the ramp  - -  just draining 
the block, pump, pick-up strainer, etc.   Last week the hose from the 
transmission oil cooler to the pick-up pump just sort of split off an 
inch or so, I guess it isn't designed for a dozen removal/re-install 
cycles.  Anyway, I made the rounds of the usual parts outlets and had 
a lot of trouble finding 1 inch i/d rubber hose that could convince me 
it wouldn't collapse if used as suction hose.  Finally I found a place 
called  "Marlborough Hydraulic Hose"  on South Street in Marlborough, 
Mass.  This stuff is $3.50 a foot vs about $1.25 for regular truck 
heater hose, its about the limit for thick wall hose that can still be 
clamped with hose clamps, the next grade has to have fittings. 

	OK, but another dozen or so attach/detatch cycles and I'll 
have to replace it again  -- .....???    No, I also discovered
"cam locks"  and now have one installed in the suction line.  They're
quick disconnects, I chose the ones without check valves - I  *_WANT_*
these hoses to drain when I disconnect them.  They're available in 
bronze or aluminum alloy (60% of the bronze price) for a range od 
sizes from about 1/2 inch i/d on up to bigger than any of us would 
ever need for a boat we could afford.

	Reg	{Oh, forget the puns on "pick-up stariner", OK Rick ?}

    whats a pick up  "stariner""
    
    

    RE: NOTE 159.6
    
    I have an inboard boat which I want to start up periodically this
    winter.  Note 159.6 says to "disconnect water pick-up and insert
    garden hose".  My question is can I cause damage to the water pump if
    I make up an adapter to connect the garden hose to the water pick-up
    hose securely versus just holding the water pick-up hose up in the air 
    and pouring water in?  The ear-muffs used on outboards and I/O's must
    induce some water pressure to the inlets once the garden hose is turned
    on without causing damage.  I want to be able to hook the garden hose
    up so that I can just turn on the water and let it pour out the
    exhausts as I work on the engine.  I'm just afraid of causing damage
    somewhere.  I would think that someone would have invented a device
    for inboards similiar to "earmuffs" by now but I have not seen it
    offered in any of the marine catalogues.
    Thanks, Wayne

    
    re: Wayne,
    
    	How are you going to build these "earmuffs"? If you
    are attaching something to the bottom of the hull where
    the pickup grate is you'll have to make damn sure it
    doesn't fall off! Also, it will have to have the same effect
    as the lake has on the hull, ie: no air leaks....
    
    	Seems easy enough to just yank the hose from the thru-hull
    pickup fitting and stick the garden hose in it.
    
    	Either way... the way to check for correct flow, which is
    no where near my garden hose's max pressure, is look for a nice
    steady stream flowing from the exhaust outlets. Bottom line is
    that the water provided for the engine should be pumped by the 
    pump, not the pressure coming from your garden hose.
    
    Hope this helps...
    
    Rick
                                                     

    
    Oh yeah... I almost neglected to enter my annual winterization
    note...
    
    	Can someone winterize my boat for me?........ :-)
    
    Rick....... Keep smilin' Ice out is only a couple months away...!

    to digress for a moment, i'm curious to understand why you 
    want to run your engine in the winter.
    
    Couple of things come to mind.
    
             Each time you run it you'll need to rewinterize it.
    
             Second, you'll be adding moisture to your crankcase
             oil, which is not good for the engine when its laid up.
    
    
    But back to your question, Rick was right. Disconnect the
    hose from the thru-hull, put the garden hose up it, turn on the
    water, then start the engine. DO NOT put the garden hose ahead
    of the pump...
    
    Make sure your pumping, by checking your overboard exhaust.
    
    CAREFUL the garden hose doesn't come out of the pump hose...
    
    JIm  

Wayne...Rick (.-1) is correct when he says that you must let the water pump do
the work, not the garden hose pressure.  What I do is disconnect the water pump
intake hose from the thru-hull, clamp an L-shaped set of PVC pipe I made up (two
lengths of straight 1-1/2" i.d. PVC with an elbow) into the intake hose, and
stick the other end of the PVC into a 5 gallon bucket somewhere outside the boat
on the ground (you'll need to do this since you'll probably overflow the bucket
a few times until you figure out the right engine speed/hose pressure combo).
Now, rig up some way of holding the business end of the garden hose in the
bucket (it will have a tendancy to move around once water pressure is applied).
For me, just duct-taping it to the bucket before it gets wet works fine.  Now
turn on the water and start the engine once the bucket is almost full.  You can
now figure out the correct combination of engine RPM and garden hose pressure to
maintain the water level in the bucket.  Voila!  One simulated lake!  On my Ford
289, I can run close to 3000 RPM before the water pump starts to win the
fill-the-bucket-empty-the-bucket game.  You'll actually have to reduce hose
pressure if all you're looking for is idle speed to do tune-up-type things.

...Roger...

    What I had in mind was a piece of pipe which had an outside diameter
    equal to the inside diameter of the intake hose.  I would attach it 
    to the hose with a radiator clap.  The other end of the pipe would have
    threads on it. I would then buy at the plumbing supply house a
    reduction fitting which screws onto the end of the pipe.  The reduction
    fitting on the other end is also threaded inside and will accept a
    garden hose adapter.  A short washing machine hose (two female
    connections) then connects the garden hose the adapter.  I already made
    it up but I'm glad I asked first before using it because it sounds
    like I can do damage if I pressurize the line prior to the water pump.
    The reason i want to run the boat this winter is because I've had it
    3 1/2 years now and have only been in the water 3 months so far.  I
    have a heated garage in the new house so I can get some work done over
    the winter. (The wife's not too happy that her truck will get left
    outside.)  The boats not running right and I also have to swap the
    tranny so I don't want to wait until spring to get going.  If I can
    cause damage, I'll go the 5-gallon bucket route, there's a drain in the
    garage floor for overflow from the bucket.  I'll just have to figure
    out how to get the exhaust/water from the exhaust pipes out of the
    garage.  I have a big (70 gallon?) plastic barrel.  Can I fill that
    half full and call that my "lake", run the intake hose into it along with
    the exhaust hoses?  Is there a limit to the head that the water pump
    can handle?  I suppose if I keep the barrel about even with the water
    intake on the bottom of the boat I would be all set.
    
    Roger, on a different note, do you have a Borg-Warner tranny on your 
    289 ?  If yes, is there a chance I could come down and take some
    pictures before I do this tranny swap? (see note 640 ??)  I live in
    Brookline, NH., about 45 minutes from Worcester.
    
    Thanks for all the help.
    Wayne (hoping-hoping-to-be-in-the-water-by-May) Norcross

    Hey Rick, I'll gladly winterize your boat for you!
    It will cost you about $10K and I'll return your Nautique from
    Florida just in time for Ice-out.   :^)   :^)
    
    Seriously, I tried the Roger-Bucket-Method and it works fine.
    I brought the engine up to temp (thermostat open) on the garden hose
    and then put the intake hose into a five gallon bucket containing 3
    gallons of 50/50 antifreeze and immediately started to fog the carb.
    Just as the antifreeze mix comes out the exhaust, (plenty of white
    smoke by now too) shut the key off.  Voila, pickled for the winter.
    
    Doug
    

    I'm sure marine engine cooling systems probably run at around the same
    water PRESSURE as auto engines, ie. less than 20 psi.  The water VOLUME
    will vary with engine RPM ( and engine size, too).  Domestic water
    supplies are typically 40+ psi.  The earmuffs are "pressure regulated" 
    by virtue of the fact that they are held on with springs or elastic, too 
    much pressure and the water squirts past the muffs.  
    
    I suppose the deluxe setup would incorporate a toilet tank float valve
    arrangement to regulate water level in the barrel or bucket.  
    
    Speaking of barrels, the white and blue plastic 55 gal barrels that are
    ideal for building floating docks can be had in Pepperell free for the
    asking at the local mill where they are a disposal problem.  They have
    NOT been used for hazardous waste type material.  
    
    Send me VAX mail and I'll describe how to get them.  
    
    Carl     SALEM::LAYTON

RE: .49

As you have surmised, you would still have the same problem with your
pipe-to-hose setup.  Before I figured out my "Roger-Bucket-Method" (as Doug so
eloquently named it) I used to just stick the garden hose into the intake hose
and clamp it there (just squeeze the intake hose around the bronze male end of
the garden hose with a hose clamp).  That would eliminate any leakage, and I was
ready to go.  Unfortunately, you're are the mercy of the water pressure.  I
could (and did) very easily collapse the garden hose (water pump sucked more
than the garden hose could provide) by revving the engine up beyond the 2000 RPM
mark.  So I developed the "pseudo-lake" method.  Heck, for the $5.00 in parts,
it's worth it!

My tranny is a Velvet-Drive.  As for seeing/photographing it, unfortuantely the
combo is at my garage in R.I.  The boat is here in Mass. (I'm working on the
stringer/floorboards) but the motor is not.  If there's something specific
you're looking for I can probably check for you this weekend as I'll be heading
down there.  Or I can take the pictures you need if that's better.  Let me know.

...Roger...

    Roger, if you could take a few pictures for me, that would be great.
    I bought a Velvet drive in need of a rebuild for $150.  I am most 
    interested in a view of the shift linkage, coolant lines, rear mounts,
    and the propeller shaft coupling as these are all things which I will
    be changing.  In fact, I'll take your whole engine/tranny.  It'll 
    probably bolt right in.  You wanted to move up to a 351, didn't you?
    Thanks, Wayne

Wayne, the engine/tranny is in my garage in West Warwick, R.I., about an hour
and fifteen minutes from the Marlboro/Hudson area.  If you feel like making the
journey I can give you specific directions.  Otherwise I can snap a few photos
and hope they're what you want.  Let me know how you'd like to work it.

Now, where did I put that camera, anyway?  :-)

Move up to a 351?  Neat idea, but I'll have to finish my stringer repair job
before thinking about putting in a bigger powerplant.  Besides, now that the 289
has been rebuilt I get plenty of steam to perform the insane antics I've been
known to engage in.

...Roger...

    Roger, I just may take a ride down there sometime this winter.  It
    would probably be better to see it first hand rather than trying to
    figure it out from pictures.  Do you live in R.I. or Worcester?
    thanks, wayne

Actually I live in North Grafton, but that's close enough to Worcester.
However, I do most of my boating in R.I., unless the gumball crew gets together.

Let me know when you want to come down and we'll make arrangements.

...Roger...

	
	(-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	 (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	(-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	 (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	(-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	 (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	(-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	 (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	(-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	 (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	(-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	 (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	(-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	 (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	(-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	 (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  
	(-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  (-:  


		(-:, (-:

    
    Reg, 
    
    	I guess all those smileys means that mothballs are not in
    the near future for your boat....huh?
    
    	I put CA to sleep this past weekend, oh what a sad day!
    
    	On the subject of flushing/cleaning out the cooling system.
    
    		In previous years the suggestion of using a wire
    	to poke the engine block plug holes seemed rather useless
    	as nothing came out of them other than water. But this year
    	with 484 hours on the 351ci PCM was a different story. Both
    	engine drains and the manifold drains were severly inhibited
    	by foreign matter. (one engine drain was almost completely
    	blocked off).... What's the point, you say? the point is,
    	as the engine ages it seems more important to poke... no puns
    	intended.
    
    	Rick
    
    	PS: Sob, sob
    

re                      <<< Note 159.58 by ARCHER::SUTER >>>
>                           -< Wire in the hole.... >-

    
>    Reg, 
    
>    	I guess all those smileys means that mothballs are not in
>    the near future for your boat....huh?

	Yeah, well, friday being in the mid 70's  -  and Matawannakee 
being as smooth as the proverbial Mill Pond (and about as clean) with  
*_ONE_*  (count 'em, o_n_e) other boat afloat;  "winterizing"  seemed 
an amusing thought - though I did pull all the plugs at the ramp.

    
>    	I put CA to sleep this past weekend, oh what a sad day!

	Presumably after a short outing on the Muckie mac ?
    
>    		In previous years the suggestion of using a wire
>    	to poke the engine block plug holes seemed rather useless

	I never heard of that, mine always gushes out of whichever 
plug(s) I pull first - all four if I'm fairly quick, though not much 
comes out of the plug in the Y-pipe under the water pump.

>    	as nothing came out of them other than water. But this year
>    	with 484 hours on the 351ci PCM was a different story. Both
>    	engine drains and the manifold drains were severly inhibited
>    	by foreign matter. (one engine drain was almost completely

	"Foreign" ?  as in  "Non U.S. citizens" ?   I heard you were 
picking on one of 'em in the 4wd file, but now they're invading yer 
PCM ?  This is getting serious !  Are they disguising themselves as
rust flakes, weeds or swimming wild life ? 

	R	{errr, anyone for G.B. this week ?}

    
    RE: REG,
    
    	The main non-US citizens to pour out thru my engine drains
    were small black particals, sort of looked like carbon. Of course
    after I drain the system, then I flush it.
    
    Rick
    
    Me... pick on someone in notes? Nahhhh!

re                       <<< Note 159.60 by ARCHER::SUTER >>>

    
>    	The main non-US citizens to pour out thru my engine drains
>    were small black particals, sort of looked like carbon. Of course

	Huh ?   I hope it was dead and fried marine life (not that I 
wish them any harm) and  NOT  cumbustion products  ???  I'd worry 
about coke type carbon in the cooling system.

>    Me... pick on someone in notes? Nahhhh!

	Yeah, you know who I mean;   

			Initials are   ...B.<censored>


	R

    I've had that black oily stuff come out of my block too.  Talk about
    panick!  I immediately checked to oil, and since there was no water in
    it, I rested easy.  Must be normal for those engines made in '87 that
    are pushing 500 hours..
    Doug

    
    	I'll have too admit that I'm a little stupid when it comes
    to exactly how the passages are setup in the exhaust manifolds,
    but the water and exhaust has to share some of them since water and
    exhaust both come out the transom.
    	Seems to make sense that I'd find some exhaust-type matter in
    the manifolds, doesn't it?
    
    Rick
    
    (I never said anything about lemons!)

re                       <<< Note 159.63 by TOMCAT::SUTER >>>
>          -< But err.. ain't that water&exhaust spitting out there? >-

	Yep, they come together there alright - I don't know where 
else before that though.....
    
>    	I'll have too admit that I'm a little stupid when it comes
>    to exactly how the passages are setup in the exhaust manifolds,

	^---such delimiters ???

>    	Seems to make sense that I'd find some exhaust-type matter in
>    the manifolds, doesn't it?

	Somewhere in the manifolds or just after them, yes  -  you 
said block drains though;  ....so unless there is recirculation of the 
water back to the block AFTER it has visited the manifolds (unlikely ?)
I can't figure a way that coke/soot can (normally) get into the block.
Since these are essentially truck engines there would have to be a
path from the exhaust manifolds back to the place on the
block/water_pump where you would expect to find a lower radiator hose
if that engine was in a truck.  

Doug:	I think you wouldn't find water in the oil, the oil is pumped 
under fairly high pressure, the cooling water is at a relatively low 
pressure - no pressure cap as in a truck.

	Now I'm starting to worry about water laying around in the 
muffler system, though I don't know of any drains for it.  Heck if the 
ice splits it I'll just have to hold a glassing gumball next spring.

	R	{hmmm, what  *_IS_*  in the long term forecaste ?}

    Doug, actually it is possible to get water in the oil with a blown head
    gasket or warped head but usually the piston connecting rod will let go
    first.  If the head gasket (or head) goes bad, sometimes cooling water
    can enter into one of the piston cylinders.  The water could leak by
    the piston rings and get into the oil.  Unfortunately, what happens if
    you don't shut the engine down right away is that the water in the
    cylinder somehow helps to increase the compression in the cylinder to
    the point where the connecting rod can't handle it and let's go causing
    major damage (new engine time).  A sign of a leaking head gasket is 
    puffy white smoke coming out of the exhausts even after the engine is
    warmed up.  If you ever remove a cylinder head and find signs of rust
    on the cylinder wall, that also would indicate a head gasket leak.
    There is probably a water jacket within the manifolds which serves
    to cool the manifolds but the water and exhaust wouldn't be allowed to 
    mix until below the level of the exhaust ports.  
    Wayne

    
    	There must be some sort of check valve in the exhaust manifolds
    or something that keeps the water away from the exhaust valves. The
    water pump as well as the hose I use to flush the system obviously
    doesn't flood the cylinders. 
    
    Rick

>                      <<< Note 159.66 by TOMCAT::SUTER >>>
>                -< How the heck are those manifolds designed? >-

>    	There must be some sort of check valve in the exhaust manifolds
>    or something that keeps the water away from the exhaust valves. The
>    water pump as well as the hose I use to flush the system obviously
>    doesn't flood the cylinders. 
 
	Right,   I think the check valve is our old buddy  "Gravity".
I don't know the details, but figure that its a water jacket and the
water and exhaust gases must get mixed somewhere low and close to the
output end of the manifold itself - that's why I'm thinking about what
might hang around in the muffler itself. 

	We can:

	i) Worry about this all winter {I think you should}

	ii) Go bother the parts counter guy for a looksee at a 
manifold to satisfy our curiosity {I might, they get lonely at this 
time of year, and they like to chat about such things}

	iii) Trust the design  {Hah !}

	iv) Trade frequently enough that we don't have to bother about 
long term problems anyway  {again, I think you should - almost 500 
hours, ain't Ya itchin' ?}

	R	{with a long term commitment}

    Risers are check valves///// I don' think so.
    
    A check valve will only permit water to flow in one direction.
    
    Risers slow the flow of water exting the manifolds, allow
    the water to absord more heat, and cool the maifold.
    
    In inaboard boats, a following sea can find its way up
    the risers, into the manifolds, and up into the valves,
    gas engines don't have enough back pressure to
    always prevent this..
    
    JIm.
    

    Right.  As my owners manual says, "When launching, back the trailer in
    slowly to avoid water entering the exhaust and causing hydrolocking".
    No checkvalves.
    
    Also, there is a return hose on my exhaust manifolds, going from the
    lower rear of the manifold tee'ed to the front of the manifold and the
    waterpump.  Probably to recirculate the lake water until it gomes up to
    operating temp?
    
    A Blown Head Gasket?!  How dare you insinuate!  :^)
    
    Doug

    
    	Here's the word from the CC factory....
    
    	The exhaust and water passages in the PCM hi-rise manifolds
    are seperate until only a couple inches before the hookup to the
    exhaust pipes leading to the mufflers.
    
    	The carbon which flushes from the manifolds is considered
    normal since some exhaust fumes do get into the water jackets,
    particularly at idle.
    
    Rick
    

re                       <<< Note 159.70 by TOMCAT::SUTER >>>
>                               -< Normal things >-

    
>    	Here's the word from the CC factory....

	So, we gotcha worried enuf to call HOSS, eh ?
					    ^-  obscure acronym from way back.

	Did they recommend any interval for pulling the manifolds and 
de-coking 'em ?   {Yes, officer - "coke",  its normal to have some on 
this boat, call the factory at this number and ask them about it.}

Doug:	Gee, I'll have to check - maybe there's another hose that I 
havn't been draining, there's something for me to worry about - maybe
that's the one I can tap into when I add a  H**t*r  so we can ski even
later in the year.  Maybe I'll have to take a run at Mattawannakee 
later this week and see what transpires.


	R	{now on 226-6248}

If I keep my 25 HP motor in the garage all winter should I still winterize it?

The garage us the under-the-house type so it does get some heat from the house.

    re: .72
    
    Yes.  The heating/cooling cycles won't be as severe, but the motor
    still needs yearly maintenance.  Before you remove it from the boat,
    do the following:
    
    1) Run some fuel storage stabilizer in the gas.
    2) Fog the motor by spraying oil into the carb.
    3) Shut it off while still smoking.  Do not drain the carb(s).  The
       stabilizer will preserve the gas, and a full carb will help prevent
       the seals from drying out.
    4) Change lower end oil.  Always do this in the fall to remove any  
       moisture.
    5) Remove the prop, grease shaft, and reinstall prop.
    6) Clean the motor, grease linkages, fittings, etc.
    
    This shouldn't take more than an hour, and you'll be all set in the
    spring.  If you want to change spark plugs, do it in the spring after
    you've burned off the fogging oil.
    
    Rick

    If you have a steering rod/cable on your outboard,  give it plenty of
    grease.
    
    Yours truly left his boat in a garage all winter, with frost
    protection, only to find next season that the engine was fine so long
    as you didn't mind driving in tight circles all day!  It took the
    dealer 3 hours to free the steering... :-(                                                
     

    I got to buy a new motor because I did what .72 is asking about.
    
    Turns out that water had leaked into the lower end. The dealer tells me
    that if I had winterized it in the fall, then the corrosion probably
    wouldn't have occurred from the water-oil mix. By spring everything
    in the lower end was rusted beyond use. You can believe I winterize
    completely at the end of the season now.
    
    Bill
    

I have a live well which gets raw water from a thru hull fitting.  The hoses
are all sealed with some white stuff and double clamped.  Is there a way that
I can get some antifreeze thru the system without disconnecting the lines.
I have tried connecting a small hose to a 3/8 pipe plug in the side of the
thru hull, but the pump won't pick up the antifreeze.  Any suggestions?
I don't want to let it go as I'm sure there is some water in the 10'+ of hose
between the transsome and the livewell.

Thanks, Gordon

    Depending on the pump.  You maybe able to blow it out with the exaust
    from vacuum cleaner.  The amount of water left after this will not
    matter.  I am assuming the boat is out of the water.  
    
    KC
    

If I understand the problem right,  elevate the feed hose 
connected to the fitting higher than the livewell pump and pour the 
antifreeze in instead of trying to suck it up with the livewell pump.  
That will supply a positive head of antifreeze to the pump.

Tom

    Gordon,  I usually just disconnect the hose and stick it in the gallon
    of antifreeze and turn on the pump and let it suck it up till
    it comes into the livewell. In one sense your better off taking the
    hose on and off because you can be sure its still in good condition,
    also open/close the shut off and make sure it is not seized.
    
    Bruce

I wanted to avoid taking the hoses off since when they were put on at the
factory they put them on with some sealing goo.

Thanks for all the sugestions I'll do it this weekend.

Gordon

I'm interested if people take their radomes (including radar
transmitter) off and bring them inside during the winter.  I can't
think of a reason why.  My boat will be covered but left outslide all
winter.

Never winterized a radar before,
Paul

    I leave mine on under the canvas. No problem over the last 2
    years.
    
    Bruce