Conference vicki::boats

    re .0
      
    I used to have a 225hp volvo-penta in my 24' Bayliner. I only had
    the boat for one season,I only had one small problem, the two set
    screws that hold the Zinc-anode colar loosened up and got caught
    in the prop hub. The Zinc colar was only $8. At first I thought
    the outdrive was history cause of the vibration. Other than that
    little quirk, no problems.
      One thing I didn't care fore was the design on the outdrive trim,
    there really isn't any trim, just tilt. Once the outdrive is out
    of locked postion (lock=all the way down) it can flop around when backing
    up, making backing up all the more difficult. I also find that the
    outdrive is ugly, bulky looking and the prop looks like something
    off of a window fan. Volvo outdrives are not made for performance
    (in my opinion) they are made for dependabilty. BTW; All Volvo v-8's
    are chevy blocks.
    
                                             Jeff
    

    Volvo, however, has an interesting innovation, the DuoProp.  Two
    counter-rotating propellers on the same shaft.  Claims to plane
    faster, go faster, and provide better economy than their single
    prop models.  But the big reason is to canel the torque steer that
    is present on all single propeller out-drives. Aids in forward motion
    and around the docks.  Of course the big boys get this by using
    two counter-rotating drive units, but for the one engine, one outdrive
    group it seems to work well.
    
    john

    has anyone ever compared a Volvo/Penta powered boat and the same
    brand boat with a different I/O combination (Mercruiser)? 

    I have the Penta T-180 outdrive; it seems reliable enough but I
    can relate to the tilt problem. When docking, you have to be damn
    sure that the drive is down and locked. Otherwise, it's easy to
    forget when you need reverse in a hurry (whammo! the drive slams
    up and it takes a few precious seconds to drop the drive to engage
    reverse again. Usually when it's too late....)
    
    Tally-ho,
    
    Ray

	I had a volvo I/O once and found it very hard and $$$ to get parts.
When it ran, it ran great (except the outdrive problems already mentioned) but
I had a head gasket problem then an outdrive problem and between the 2 I lost
close to 2 seasons and big $$$ waiting for parts.  I finally had to drive
(myself) down to RI to pick up the parts at the Depetro-Kay (sp?) Volvo
Distributorship in order to get the job done.

	OMC (cobra) and MERC (alpha) seemed to be about equal now as far as
features, ease-of-maint., performance, parts, etc.  I would buy a Merc or OMC
before buying another Volvo.  As far as the counter-rotation problem, just get
power steering with you V8/V6 and the problem is solved.

	One plug for OMC (and probably Merc but I am not sure) most of the
big $$$ parts are GM parts (except carb, exhaust manifolds, outdrive) like
the block, heads (i think), intake manifolds, pistons, crank, starter, alt.,
etc.  5-10 years down the line when you might need to fix/rebuild is a definite
advantage to have a parts and labor aternative that is not associated with
Marina's. 

	Garry

< Note 122.5 by NETMAN::BAER "Garry Baer" >
�	One plug for OMC (and probably Merc but I am not sure) most of the
�big $$$ parts are GM parts (except carb, exhaust manifolds, outdrive) like
�the block, heads (i think), intake manifolds, pistons, crank, starter, alt.,
�etc.  5-10 years down the line when you might need to fix/rebuild is a definite
�advantage to have a parts and labor aternative that is not associated with
�Marina's. 

    Wow.  Be careful of what you read.  The above paragraph could
    be dangerous to your health.  As was previously discussed in
    this file, many parts are common between automotive and
    marine engines.  Two that are specifically not are starters
    and alternators.

    Marine engines operate in enclosed compartments, sometimes in
    the presence of gasoline fumes.  Marine electrical components
    (such as starters and alternators) are (to be Coast Guard
    type approved) supposed to be vapor proof so that any
    internal arcing won't cause an explosion.  Automotive
    components would not provide this protection.

    	- Lee Lindquist

RE:   < Note 122.6 by SMAUG::LINDQUIST >

Lee,

	That is the impression I had until my last week vacation up on Sebago
lake in Maine.  I had the opportunity to look at several NEW boats that had OMC
powering and the marina's there are saying that the ALT and STATERS are direct
auto cross-reference parts.  Sure enough, I took the ALT part number off of my
5.7 OMC and went to the local parts store and they had one listed.

	I tried the same process for my friends MERC I/O and that STARTER and
ATL are NOT listed.  The MERC ones do look like they are specially modified
by MERC as they look *different* than automotive counterparts.  Maybe OMC
is pulling one over on us by not having the components CG approved, just the
hull.  Could this be the case??  Anyone else have the time to check this out.

			Garry

    
    	Another problem with Automotive starters in boats is whether
    or not it's the correct (there's that word again!) rotation.
    I've heard horror stories of people bolting LH starters on RH
    motors and cranking water *into* the engine!
    
    Rick

    Garry,

    I did some additional checking last night...

    From what I read, the only legal requirement in this area is
    'Coast Guard type approved Flame arrestor' on the carburetor
    of a gasoline engine.  (Unless backfire flame is directed
    overboard.)  So, it looks like it would not be illegal to use
    automotive parts.  Jerry Creaser, if he's listening, could
    probably be more definitive on the 'law'.

    I know the MerCruiser starters I've seen are not automotive,
    but you might be right about OMC.

    (My impression of OMC is that they spent a lot more time
    thinking up 'King Cobra' than they did thinking about
    service.)

    	- Lee

    re .9
    
    	Just as a side note - the only automotive air cleaner/flame
    arrestor which can be legally used on boats (CG approved in the
    last 12 months), is K&N's high flow unit from California... K&N
    is well known in racing circles for their air filtration systems
    in many race applications. (ie. if your getting a flow of 376 CFM
    through a foam element, you should able to pickup 880-890 through
    their air cleaner/element) Now just think how restrictive the stock
    Mercruiser/OMC flame arrestor/air cleaner is - and you can see why
    this is one of the cheapest ways to pickup a few horses (ie. 6-20
    HP depending on the engine) Drug runners have been running this
    configuration for years...
    
    							-mike-

    >>My impression of OMC is that they spent more time thinking up
    >>"King Cobra" than they did thinking about services.
    
    
        
    	Lee,
    
    	Read the article from "Boating" the March issue (pg 139). OMC has put
    a lot of thought into service. Here are a few difference that OMC has
    done.
    	1. The water pump in the outdrive can be changed in 10-15 minutes
    	   unbolt 3 bolts for the cover and 2 bolts for the water pump.
    	   If you had to a person could make the repair while in the
    	   water.
    	   Mercury's water pump is deep inside outdrive. It takes a
    	   45-60 minutes to make the repairs in the shop.
    
        
    	2. OMC kept the breaker points instead of going to solid state
    	   The thought was you could alwas make some kind of fix and
    	   get back to port.
    
    	3. The alternator is high on the right side of the engine.
    	   Keeping it away from a potentially wet bilge.
    	   Mercury chose to place their alternator on the lower left
    	   side of the engine.
    
    	4. Mercury has cluttered the engine compartment with hoses and
    	   wires. OMC has made it easier to get a the engine to make
    	   repairs or adjustments.
    
    	5. OMC has designed some safety into their outdrive. If the
    	   outdrive should hit something hard like rocks, logs the outdrive
    	   will stay out of the water. The boat will slow to a stop,
    	   OMC feels if the operator was thrown from the console that
    	   the boat would not be a runaway.
    
    OMC still has its faults, but they OMC did put some thought  into
    service.
    
    	Mike

    RE. .5, Garry, I would normally shy away from Volvo based on the
    reasons you give and the reliability (or lack of) I've seen on Volvo
    cars - assuming the marine engines are based on the automotive units.
    
    But in the case of the DuoProp outdrives the blocks are V8s, GM
    V8s, not Volvos.  So, I wouldn't expect any more difficulty getting
    engine parts for those engines than those used in OMCs and Mercruisers.
    
    john

    re: .12
    
    John - are you saying that you have seen unreliable Volvo cars?
    I find this hard to believe! Volvo was the first car I ever saw
    brave enough to add the sixth digit to the odometer!
    
    Bill 

    Forgive me if I gave the impression that I am impressed with
    MerCruiser's serviceability.  Believe me, I am not.  

    The MerCruiser water pump that you mention is a good example. 
    When I lived in Florida, it was quite common to block the
    outdrive water intake with plastic bags and other similar
    junk.  Imagine a situation where you don't notice the high
    temperature until the pump impeller cooked.  It would be
    impossible to make an emergency repair when you have to
    remove the outdrive, drain the gear oil, disassemble the
    outdrive and installing a new impeller.  (As contrasted to an
    inboard installation where the raw water pump would be
    accessible inside the boat.)

    I think it will be interesting to see what happens with the
    jet drives in larger boats (e.g. KaMeWa).  If they prove
    successful, I would expect a resurgence in jets in smaller
    boats.  I do like the simplicity of jet drives, although they
    do have their own set of problems.

    I saw a small jet drive at a boat show which had a tap off
    the high pressure side of the pump for raw water cooling.
    That seemed to be a very clever solution to where to locate
    the raw pump impeller!

    	- Lee

    re. .13, Great marketing, huh?  Where do we hear about Volvo's
    legendary reliability, from Volvo in their advertising of course.
    
    Reading the Carbuffs notesfile will reveal Volvos for what they are, a
    car.  Nothing more, nothing less.  When new owners first look at the
    mainteance/replacement schedule they usually can be heard to say, "if
    ANY car was maintained according to this scedule it would last
    forever."  There is no shortage of Volvo problems, and new buyers
    switching back to their previous brand after a year or two of repairs
    and expensive parts.
    
    john

    I re-read .11, and wanted to make two additional comments.
    (Note, that .11 pretty accurately quotes the BOATING article.)

    When I read the article in BOATING, I thought it sounded just
    like an OMC press release, rather than some insightful
    BOATING reporting...

    	2. OMC kept the breaker points instead of going to solid state
    	   The thought was you could always make some kind of fix and
    	   get back to port.
                   It seems to me that the above is justification
                   of an economic decision.  We're going to put
                   in a cheaper system, and now tell you why it's
                   better.  I would think that an argument could
                   be made that electronic ignition would be so
                   much more reliable that jury-rigged solutions
                   would not be necessary.

    	3. The alternator is high on the right side of the engine.
    	   Keeping it away from a potentially wet bilge.
    	   Mercury chose to place their alternator on the lower left
    	   side of the engine.
                   Certainly high on the right side of the engine
                   is a good location for the alternator.  I have
                   a MerCruiser, and the alternator is not on the
                   lower left.

         Since I'm on my magazine bashing hobby horse, there is
         an article in the August issue of YACHTING about a
         sailboat which capsized.  Two people were in the water
         for something like 60 hours off Southern California. 
         Fortunately, they had STEARNS survival suits.  At the end
         of the article, the address of STEARNS was provided.
         Certainly survival suits saved their lives.  But I
         thought it was a bit patronizing (to YACHTING's
         advertister) to suggest that only a STEARNS survival
         suit would have worked.

    Next time your in the marine store, price a set of points and the
    electrics module for the "electronic ignition".......
    
    Also, electrical stuff and saltwater don't mix.......
    
    I think this is a case of simplicity is the elegant solution.
    
    Or if you need the high tech stuff, just go with 2 engines.......
    and towing insurance...... and don't worry about it......
    
    Have a nice day....  See you on the pond!
    
    Mike.  "old soul"
    

    i'd agree with the simplicity of the point ignition system.
    points are very inexpensive, and you can see how they're doing
    buy looking inder the dist cap. secondly a point ign. system is
    much easier to trouble shoot. 
    
    crusader opted to leave the point system intact. seems mercruiser
    did the same thing. in my mind, as far as boats go, the simpler
    the better. and if you find yourself with a problem, the simpler
    to solve.  leave the high tech stuff for something else.
    
    jim.

    If the points made in the previous two replies are correct,
    that what justification is there for the engine manufacturers
    who do chose electronic ignition, which many do?  

    Certainly the mechanical system is cheaper.  But, is the
    electronic system more reliable?  Unfortunately, we don't have
    any MTBF data to answer definitively. But it would be
    surprising if engine manufactures selected a more expensive
    AND less reliable system.

    Besides cost and MTBF, I would expect the electronic system
    to work better in a marine environment.  In borderline cases
    where plugs are fouled after slow running, or ignition
    components are damp due to high humidity, I would expect the
    higher voltage produced by an electronic ignition system to
    work where a mechanical system might fail.

    I certainly agree with keeping it simple, but if electronics
    were unreliable, most of us would be out of work.

    Well, how about a little fuel for the fire!!!
    
    Most of us don't need a pc to balance the check book?????????
    Think about the job at hand and do what needs to be done, not more
    than that.
    
    Some other points - whoops.........
    
    0  you tell me when the electronics module is broke???
    0  Dist. caps for electronic ignition have coils in them and are
       usually replaced at the same time.  Oh -  tell me when that goes
       south too......
    0  Maybe MFG's. stay with product that gives them the least amount
       of Customer dissatisfaction..... Almost anyone can change points,
       plugs, rotor, and dist. cap. and easily tell which part(s) are
       broken.  That means back on the pond quicker and cheaper.
    
    Anybody ever ask the Crusader and Mercruiser reps why not go with
    electronic ignition?????? That would be interesting...
    
    Mike.

< Note 122.20 by CANNAY::RIOPEL >
Most of us don't need a pc to balance the check book?????????
    Can I use a calculator, or is the technology too unreliable?

    RE. [-1]
        I guess you should use what works for you. 
    
    I've done a little more research.... Talked to a couple of happy
    owners....   It turns out that in fact the quoted problem why mfger's
    went back to points was/is relibility. Most sales types and those
    that do repairs will say points are easier to fix and rarely break
    in such a way as to render the motor inoperable. Modules flat ass
    break and don't work - and as far as I know are not repairable.
    Seems that the output transitor gets stressed a lot. (But doesn't it 
    do that in our cars???) Must be some other reason. It may be cost
    of a "water proof" module??? I don't know.
    
    I was playing "spin the dial/couch potato" last night and caught
    a piece of one of those car repair answer man shows. They were talking
    about if a diode is bad on the alternator, replace that as a source
    of ignition module failure - say what??. (I just read the cards
    mam I don't right them). If that doesn't work go over every ground
    wire under thwe hood..... The show says these ingition modules are
    very sensitive to poor grounds. ( That one I can understand - as
    well as having poor grounds on a motor in the bilge.)
    
    I suspect there is more to the whole story than we've been told.
    I also believe there may be real reliability problems with the 
    technology  - "as it is applied".... Obviously it works in the car.
    
    By the by (now the cards and letters will come in) - try using your
    calculator without  a battery------, also I'm a happy outboarder - with
    electronic ignition - in fact I have several power packs as they
    are called per engine. Only problem was on the first day it went
    in the pond - one power pack died and the motor wouldn't rev over
    3000 RPM.. I don't know how long they will last. Maybe I'm in for
    big trouble???? -  Power packs are completely sealed with epoxy
    - maybe that helps. 
    
    Well lets keep the cards and letter coming. Does any one have any
    inside info on the real reasons why no electronic ignition???
    Are we all being duped?? Or just left in the "mushroom syndrome".
    
    
    Mike.
 

    
    Crusader Marine has been using electronic ignition for over a year
    now. There hasn't been any increase in price of them doing that.
    Points wear out and loose thier gap and therefore loose performance.
    Moving parts are more likely to go bad before electronics.
    
                                     Jeff

Case in point (whoops):

	Points cost $10		(disclaimer:  All prices are guesses)
	Dist. cap cost $20

1978 Merc V6 (175hp) outboard powerpack	cost $495 (1985 dollars)


	Which would you prefer if the points need replacing once a season
and the power pack needs replacing once every 7 years.  I traded my o/b in
for an OMC i/o WITH points after this simple little comparison and 1 power
pack later!

				Garry

    bad news:  volvo 4.3 bitz it!
    
    good news:  volvo-penta stands good!
    
    i almost hate to tell this story because of the great treatment i got
    from volvo-penta outside warranty, but they really should issue a
    recall.
    
    my 91 chaparral has the 4.3l volvo-penta duo-prop i/o.  at 37 hours the
    engine quit (left me stranded on the colorado river 10 miles south of
    needles, ca.)  when i got home to la, i trouble shot the problem to
    the distributor.  the gear on the bottom was worn off and teeth were
    missing. now, i have had many gm engines (this v-6 is a variant of the
    350 v-8) and have never seen a distributor gear wear out even after
    100k+ miles of use.  i found it real amazing that volvo offered to
    replace the engine without much of an argument.  it seems that the
    distributor is made by prestolite.  although i can't seem to get any
    positive statement from volvo-penta or the dealer, the theory seems to
    be that the drive gear on the newer 4.3l is harder (roller cam) and
    caused the distributor gear to wear early.  my theory is that the new
    cam has a different pitch gear and that is why the distributor gear
    wore out so fast.  
    
    by the way my dealer has now replaced at least 10 engines under
    warranty.  mine is the only one to be replaced outside warranty (4
    months outside the 12 month warranty). one boat that my dealer sold
    failed in 4 hours! 
    
    i feel that there are a lot of time bombs out there ready to go off!
    since volvo-penta is apparantly not going to issue a recall for the $5
    distributor gear, i recommend that anyone with this engine pressure
    them for a replacement gear, distributor, or engine replacement.  after
    failure, the engine oil has a lot of metal shavings from the gear wear.  i
    would imagine that the oil filter would catch most of the metal, but my
    dealer would not accept any other solution from volvo than a new
    engine!  by the way,  the metal filings went down into the oil pump and
    wore out the housing where the shaft drives the pump gear.
    
    i still love this engine/outdrive combination and would buy another.  i
    also thing volvo-penta is a great company for standing behind their
    product, but i find it hard to understand why they want to keep it a
    secret and expose themselves to unhappy customers.
    
    
    steve
    

    I think the answer may be simple:
    
    1. They don't want the publicity.
    
    2. they only have to deal with those who complain, if they do a recall
       they will have a lot more to deal with than they would like. 
    
    JIm

    
    
    	Why should Volvo recall and engine that they bought from GM.
    	I seems to me it is a GM problem. I have a '88 205 Four Winns
    	that has a 4.3L engine. With 250 hours, so far no problems.
    	It appears that the '91 engines have a problem. Glad that the
    	dealer is taking care of their customers.
    
    	

    RE:-1
    the distributor and gear are NOT gm parts!  prestolite makes the
    distributor for volvo-penta.  i think gm just came out with a
    self-contained electronic disrtibutor for marine products so maybe the
    new volvo-penta engines will use that one.   
    
    i understand that gm went to roller cams in this engine sometime in
    87-89 so you may want to check your distributor gear for wear.
    
    regards,
    steve

    I'm picking up a early 70's I/O boat with a Volvo Penta setup. A B20
    Volvo 4 cyl. engine, I believe. The engine has been rebuilt, however
    the exhaust mainifold was rotted and disgarded. Where can I get (at a
    fairly reasonable cost) a used/new manifold?
    
    Ross

I suspect you can get an aftermarket manifold for your engine mfg'd by Barr.  I
know Shoreway Marine in N.Y. carries them (I don't have their #/address handy).

The cost of a Barr from Shoreway should run about 2/3 the cost of an original
from Volvo.  DiPeitro Kay is the eastcost authorized Volvo distributor and I'm
sure they could get you one at a higher price.  They're located in both Maine
and New Jersey and I don't have their address/# handy either.  If you need help
identifying a part number DiPeitro is usually very helpful.  Be prepared to spend
in the neighborhood of $300 for an aftermarket manifold and don't forget about
the gaskets, drainplug and probably new bolts.  Also you'll probably have to
paint them as they usually only come primed...

Good Luck,
Dave

	Overton's lists manifolds and riser elbows for Mercuruiser and
OMC. While Volvo-Penta isn't listed it may be worth a phone call because
I've found situations before where items weren't listed in their catalog,
but they did carry them.... Overton's phone is 800-334-6541.

Rick

ps. The Merc and OMC manifolds/Risers start at $229.00/$119.00

    Thanks for the responses. I did follow up with Overton and found a
    vendor by the name of Sierra that has a replacement. Looks like I'll
    have a "new" Merrimack river cruiser for the next boating season.
    
    
    Ross