Conference vicki::boats

    John,
    Nothing at all to worry about. Part of the winterizing
    procedure is to run oil through the motor to coat the
    crankcase and cylinders. Massive amounts of smoke on the
    initial startup are perfectly normal.
    
    If a tuneup was done as part of the winterizing then it
    should not be necessary again in the spring.
    
    Rick W.

John,

	It might be woth the investment in a set of "headphones" for your
rig.  This will allow you to hook it up to a garden hose in your back yard
and burn out the winterization oil there.  It has a great side effect of
ridding your yard of mosiquitos!

			Garry

    I agree with .1.  I also use a product called " Start Fresh" that
    I add to my fuel tank to help remove any condensation that might
    have accumlulated over the winter.
    
    I start and run my engine in the back yard before I get to the ramp.
    This way I can check out everything before hand.  To do this you
    need a pair of ear muffs so you can supply water to the engine.
    Nothing more embarrassing than to launch your boat with a dead battery!!!!

    re -1
    More embarassing than a flat battery is having a prop fall of in
    middle of a tidal inlet, with skier yelling "Hi it". Result of having
    the O/B serviced properly and them not replacing the split pin that
    goes thru' the castle nut. Not my boat, but I was driving it.
    
    .jim. who_never_trust_authorised_dealers_etc_anymore

    THANKS FOR YOUR COMMENTS AND SUGGESTIONS, GUYS...
      
    I SHALL MAKE NO MORE TALK ABOUT WINTERIZATION TILL OCTOBER...(INDIAN
    SUMMER IN VT.)
                  
    JOHN
    

    This was the closet note that I could find so I will kind of reopen
    this one.  I volunteer my time at a small sailing program on the
    Merrimack River in Lowell.  Yes your read correctly sailing, but we
    need power boats to rescure our students.  The clubs idea of power boat
    maintenance is leave it alone until it breaks.  This has left us with
    three hulls and one working engine.  Before this last one dies I
    thought we should do a little preventive maintenance.
    
    Why is this note in the spring tune-up well it needs one.  Seriously to
    the best of my knowledge nothing other than new plugs has been done to
    this motor since 1988.  I know that it needs work but have not done any
    motor work since 1973 and do not trust my memory.  What I am looking
    for is a recommendation of a good book for do it yourself engine work. 
    The engine is a 35 horsepower Mercury of unkown age.  If I had to guess
    I would say mid 1980s.
    
    
    Forrest

<    for is a recommendation of a good book for do it yourself engine work. 
<    The engine is a 35 horsepower Mercury of unkown age.  If I had to guess
<    I would say mid 1980s.

Forrest,

   If it were me I'd head for the nearest LARGE library (or library with
reciprocity with a big one) and take out the marine equivalent of the CHILTON's
manual (I think they are published by SAMS).  Look up your make and year and
your off.  Just like CHILTON's it's not going to tell you everything, but does
cover basic troubleshooting and tuneup stuff. I know they are carried in the
Worceser, Ma library and would expect them in any major city's library...

Al

    This maybe a little late for Forrest's request on tuneing your motor. 
    The BEST place I've found for repairing or parts for Merc engines in
    the Nashua, NH area is Middlesex Power and Marine in Tyngsboro, Mass.
    When I bought my boat (18' tri hull, trailer and blown 115 Merc) all 
    for $500 dollars, they (Middlesex Power) were MORE than heplful.  
    Cost me $485 to rebuild motor and thay carry just about everything in
    stock for your motor.
        If you have them de-winterize your boat, I feel your wasting your
    money.  Just buy the "ear muffs" and do it yourself.  If you bring it
    to Middlesex Power get there EARLY in the season, or you'll wait weeks
    for your boat, they are super busy.
    
    Bill @ ZKO

Hi All,

This will be by second summer with a used boat that I bought over the winter of 94/95.  
Last spring I did nothing to the engine since it had a rebuilt powerhead installed.  So, this 
spring the yard is recommending that I go ahead with a full 'spring tune-up'.

For about $200 this is what the mechanic will do (6 cyl., 150 Merc outboard):

	Replace waterpump (he says should do this every 2 years)
	Replace thermostats (2 of them)
	Lower unit gear lube
	Pull prop and grease shaft
	Check compression

Since I put in brand new plugs near the end of last year he won't replace them.

So, my questions are:

	1. Is this a reasonable price ?
	2. Is all this necessary ?
	3. Is he missing anything ?
	4. Could I do it myself (and, related, where to best get the service manual) ?

Thanks for any further help,

Peter.

    	Personally, I'd spend the money and get the manual and a compression 
    tester. The tester will run you about $20 and can be used for other
    engines as well. The only thing listed that may be difficult is the water 
    pump (impellor ?), but that probably depends on the condition of your 
    engine. I'm not sure about the thermostats either.
    
    	One of the problems with "tune-ups" is that they lump a bunch of
    things together and you don't have any idea what each of them cost, nor
    whether or not they were actually done. Doing them yourself "usually"
    saves money (unless you break something) and teaches you about your
    engine in the process. This can only help you if you ever have a
    problem. Even if you ultimately take it to the shop, education is your
    best defense from being taken advantage of. 
    
    	You can also pick and choose the easy things, leaving the more 
    difficult tasks for the shop. The compression test, lower end lube, and
    prop shaft lube should be a piece of cake. What you save this time
    alone will probably pay for the testor and the manual.
    
    	Ray

 Owning outboards for many years in the 125-200hp catagory I'd agree 100%
 with -1. Here's a tip

 The single most thing that ever happens to these motors is the plugs foul.
 Here's what I do. I buy a new set of plugs every year at walmart when they
 go on-sale for about a buck a piece. They are the easiest things to change
 yourself. I take the old plugs (Which are usally fine even after the winter 
 fogging) and place them in a zip lock and toss them in the boat. Always carry
 a plug wrench in your boat. In the event you ever foul the plugs you will
 not get stuck.

 The lower unit oil is a piece of cake too. They sell a tool for about $10
 that screws into the quart bottle (forget the tubes). Its a pump. You screw
 it in the bottom and pump it till it comes out the top.

 As far as compression... its like this. Is the motor running good? if yes 
 then the compression must be fine. As far as the impella goes about every
 200 hours should do. If the water is peeing out the pee-hole good then
 the impella must be fine.

 Save the money and do the easy things yourself. If its your first time and 
 your uncomfortable doing any of the above, I'm sure someone in this file that
 lives near you and or myself would be happy to walk you through the basics
 for a few cold beverages.

 -Sully

All of you who assume that if aint broke dont fix are only partily right!

First of all the average person does not know what a bad thing or condition
might look like even though everything appears ok.

I worked in the marine industry for 5 years and constantly saw this type of
situation.
1. A compression check is mandatory every year.  to track cyl. condition.
2. gear lube every year. In the spring only, not in the fall.(high performance
oil gear lube only)
3. If you winterized your motor correctly then spark plugs should be changed
	every spring (not in the fall).
I agree with the two hundred hours for impeller replacement as a preventative
maintenance.

And like "sully" I'd be happy to assist.

						Jack

    I have to argue with the previous reply. 
    Following #2 forced me to buy a new outboard.
    
    Gear lubs should be changed in the fall. Somehow, water had gotten
    into my lower inut. By Spring time, the entire lower inut was 
    siezed up - a mass of rust. My Merc dealer said that if I had changed
    it it the end of the season, the damage wouldn't have occurred
    and that I was "negligent" in not changing it in the fall.
    Since repairing the cost of the damage was more $ than the 
    outbaord was worth, I got to buy a new motor.
    
    Bill
    

    I have also always changed gear lube in the fall to check for water and
    prevent freeze up. 
    
    Plus if you check it in the fall and find a problem, you have the whole
    winter to get it fixed 8^)
    
    -donmac
    

I have to agree about changing the gear lube in the fall.  Every owners manual I have read has 
this as a step for winterizing.  This will ensure you don't have water mixed with the lube during 
storage.  I doubt if the lube deteriates very much in the gear case during storage.  You should 
check the level again in the spring.

keith

 Yo! -- The title here was spring tuneup. Seeing as the fallith has passith
 then let bygones be bygones and change the oil. And yes I always change my oil
 in the fall, unless I forget... then spring...

 I wonder if Kasper is a friendly ghost?

 But, to differ with you I must. I have been around High performance outboards
 for 10 years. I must say the end result of a compression check is irrelevent.
 If the motor is running OK and I got 1 cylinder with a weaker compression,
 I aint tearing it down till I toast the thing. Does it make sense to tear it
 down and replace one cylinder? NOPE! might as well do'em all while your there.
  
 Soooooo I said, when the motor starts running poorly a compresion check is
 neccessary. If its running good it doesn't really matter. You thinking like
 wun ob dem dealerz? Cut that out!. No sense paying a dealer to do things if
 the motor is running good! Save the money for the gas tank.

  - Sully
 

HEY GUYS  I stinging from the whipping

I AM CURRENTLY MERCRUISER/MERCURY OUTBOARD CERTIFIED  :>)

What I am telling you all is based on real experience.

You do not change gear oil in the fall YOU CHECK IT TO SEE IF THERE IS WATER
CONTAMINATION, IF YOU JUST CHANGE IT AND DONT TAKE CARE OF THE LEAK (S) YOU
STILL HAVE A PROBLEM.

If you find water in the gear lube then you drain the gear case completely
and refill for the winter only, only have to drain it in the spring to repair 
the leak then refill it again. to find the leak is simple all you need is
another tool (s), a pressure and vacum hand pump. They are very similar
to a bicycle pump.  (I have both)

I have winterized at least 2000 + outboards with no problems related to water
as long as you know what to look for. Following the book is ok but after doing
it for a living there are a lot of things you learn that are not in the book.

I do agree with you Sully but if you are going to do it you may as well
do it right.  It does not hurt to do a compression check.

As far as I am concerned if I have a significantly low cyl. I will fix it 
rather than destroy the whole power head.$$$$$$

And yes I am friendly  :>)  and if anyone needs assistance please EMAIL me.

                                        Jack (the whipping post)

    So what is wrong with changing lower gear oil in the fall.
    .1- says you dont do it in the fall.
    
    Are you saying that it goes bad by spring, i fyou change it in the
    fall.
    
    It was the  Mercury O.B. dealer from whom I bought my motor who says
    that changing it in the fall is part of winterizing.
    
    I don't get it. What is wrong with changing it in the fall?
    
    It seems to me that if you change it int he fall, you are all set
    in the spring.
    
    Bill
    

 Fall is correct. The main reason why is water. You winterize your engine in the 
 fall and while the motor is warm you drop the gear lube. You pay attention
 at this point and look for water. 1)If you see water you got a problem and 
 2) The water in the lower unit could crack something when frozen in the 
 winter. 3) This gives you all winter to address the problem.

 The only reason wy I said spring was because it was a spring note and if 
 it hadn;t been done better late than never.

 - Sully

There is nothing wrong with changing gear lube in the fall.
I recommend only checking it in the fall and if no water is present there is no
need to change it. the long cold winter can take its toll on rubber seals!
Then in the spring you can drain the gear lube and do a quick pressure check.

And if you feel it unnessesary to do it that way you can take your chances.
I have seen more seal related problems in the spring than in the fall.

And if you feel that having a pressure checker is not important then let a
marina do the work so they are responsible. Approx. cost for press.checker=$30


I hope you all relize that I have seen more problems then I care to talk about
and 6 out of 10 times the root cause of the problem is (I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING
AND I DID THE WORK MYSELF.)
						JACK

 Jack,

>6 out of 10 times the root cause of the problem is (I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING
>AND I DID THE WORK MYSELF.)

  I resemble that remark. Nothing against dealers. They just charge WAY too
 much for the work they do. I have often thought of opening an marine shop
 shop and actually charge a fair price per hour. Agreed I wouldn't be  a
 millionare but, there's something to be said about not wearing a mask.

  I have a real hard time paying $7 for a spark plug I can buy for $1 Its
 just robbery. Of course I'll hear something like these are the top quality
 champion plugs. What's this $50 an hour stuff? The motors are all modules now
 and the computer tells you whats wrong. 
  I have learned to do alot myself because of this pricing
 mentality. Yet, the big jobs seem to be fair. I had an impella job done for 
 $125. I'm sure the parts cost about 10 bucks but, it seemed worth it. It also
 seems the bigger the job the faster the service. I drop the boat off for rather
 simple warranty work and it rarely gets done the first time. Yet you drop it 
 off with a lower unit or power head problem and you got it back in a week....

 - Sully
 

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE!!
I FEEL THE SAME WAY. SOME MARINAS CLAIM TO HAVE "MASTER MECHANICS". BASED ON
"EXPERIENCE" NOT ACTUAL CERTIFICATES. I KNOW I HAVE WORKED THERE!!!!!!!

THE IMPELLER DOES ONLY COST THE MARINA ABOUT 10 BUCKS AND IT COSTS YOU AND ME 25
MOST OF THE PARTS HAVE A 100% MARK UP, I HAVE SEEN THE DEALER COST AND THE
DEALER LIST PRICES.

IF THE WATER PUMP JOB ON YOUR MOTOR INCLUDED THE WATER PUMP KIT (COMPLETE)
AND THE WATER PUMP BASE ASSEMBLY THEN THE PRICE IS ABOUT RIGHT (LIST)!!!

I THINK THAT MOST OF THE MARINAS NOW CHARGE 55+ PER HOUR NOW IN THE RTE. 20
AREA. BOY THEY NEVER EVEN CAME CLOSE TO PAYING ME THAT MUCH????

I USED TO WORK FOR MY EX FATHER IN LAW AND HE RAN A VERY DISCIPLINED MARINA
(NO BULL)   95% FIXED THE FIRST TIME.  WE CARRIED OVER 300,000 MERCURY PARTS IN
STOCK. NOT LIKE THESE PLACES AROUND HERE THEY HAVE TO ORDER EVERYTHING.

MAYBE WE SHOULD TALK MORE ABOUT (SMALL BUISNESS) SOME TIME

						JACK, OFF TO TEXAS FOR TWO
						WEEKS FOR VENDOR TRAINING.
SEE YOU ALL THE 29TH WHEN I GET BACK:>)

re: .11, .12, and everyone else

Thanks for the encouragement.  I ended up getting the Clyman book and doing
the work myself (except for the thermostats which I'll do this weekend and 
the compression test which I might not do at all ).

You all were right, it was pretty straightforward.  I only saved about 
$75-80 compared to what the mechanic was going to charge.  But now I know a 
lot more and most of the extras I had to buy will still be there next 
year so over all it was a pretty cheap lesson.

Parts/tools cost breakdown:

Water pump kit:		$39
Lower Oil seals:	$10  (not part of the Upper kit but did anyway)
Gear Lube:		$ 7
Lube pump:		$10
Clyman manual:		$25
Thermostats (2):	$17
RTV Sealer:		$ 4
Gasket Sealer:		$ 4
Marine Grease:		$ 5
My Time & Labor:	$ 0	( :-) about 7-8 hrs, mostly 'thinking')
			----
			$121

Note that I also got straight QuickSilver parts and nothing aftermarket.  
The price differential didn't seem worth the risk.

Again, thanks for the help and anytime you want to stop by Ferry's Landing 
in Newburyport for a 'cold beverage' let me know !

Peter.