Conference vicki::boats

    Agree 100%. Don't ask any piece of equipment to do something for
    which it was not designed. A lot of the tales about Bayliner could
    apply equally to all other name brands in boating. New techniques
    and materials have permitted construction of lighter weight hulls
    with equal strength to the older heavier hulls, however they do
    not give the same secure feeling as a heavier boat. Take Baja for
    instance. The newer Baja's are much lighter than the older models
    and are improved since the days of deck/hull separation. Sea-Ray
    now builds a much lighter boat in the Seville model and Larson and
    Glastron have lightened hull construction for maximum performance.
    I have an older Bayliner (1977) 22 1/2 ft. with a heavier hull material
    and design than the new ones which performs adequately with the
    Mercruiser (288 I think?). Only problem is getting it on plane with
    over 4 adults and gear. Once it planes its fine. Probably prop change
    or trim tabs would correct the situation but it's not that big a
    problem since turning sharply in any direction puts it on plane.
    To make a long story short, I have had very good luck with the Bayliner
    and would compare it favorably with other boats such as Glastron,
    Starcraft etc. which I have owned. I guess personal preference is
    sometimes translated into "dumping" on others. ($.02 of mine!)

    I Agree!!!! A small boat has no place in seas like that.  I have
    a 19' Glastron that I use in Cape Cod Bay and in seas less than that
    I head for home port.  I hope they had their life jackets on!!!!!!!
    

>    I saw some references in the 17 bowrider note that really bugged
>    me and I wanted to get it out in the open. In addition I have
>    seen others like it else where.
    
>    The quote about "I was doing 30 mph in 4 foot waves and I felt like
>    the boat was about to come apart..." is the one I am refering to.

	Bruce,

	At the risk of turning this note into a flame on/flame off
	mess and if it gets to that point, I'm history, I'd like to
	agree.  I won't use words like impossible, however;  I have
	a 19' run-a-bout, (hate that word) and also run Cape Cod to
	Martha's Vinyard as well as Boston Harbor and 30 MPH in 4
	footers is a no can do fom me...just can't do it.  As a matter
	of fact I hit some four foot seas about a mile off the Vinyard
	on Saturday last.  I had my hands full just keeping the bow up...
	and we still got soaked..no big deal...just can't see 30.

	As far as Bayliner goes, I wouldn't even consider one in the 
	<25' range.  I plain and simple don't like them.  I don't
	like the lines and don't like the "color".  Aside from any
	bad rep that Bayliner has aquired, (and I don'e even know why),
	it seems to be a good starter boat and a lot of boat for the money.
	That's why I bought my Searay...it was a lot of boat for the money.
	HOWEVER;!!!!!  Conflicting opinions are a necessity.  They help
	people form their own and I think that most people wouldn't form
	their whole opinion from this file alone.  We should all use tact
	and most if not all do but to steifel, (sp?) opinions would be
	a SIN, "in my opinion".

	Bruce,  remember.....I'm agreeing with you!

	FLAME/WHATEVER		rgds__mike
	

    Bruce 
    I agree with you wholehartedly, I wouldn't do 30 in my boat ether.
    Wish it would do thirty? I have seen Ya'Ho's hit those 10-15 ft
    standing waves at the Mouth of the Merrimack at thirty or so and
    they usually have a funny look on their faces when they land.
    
    As far as trash boats go, I think we should all own Rybovic's .
    I'm just waiting to hit megabucks before I order mine. Let's see
    what color??? Hmmmm?
    
                                                 Walt
    

	4' waves in an 18' huh.  Well I was the person who made the statement
and I did not qualify it with "in the ocean".  Clearly waves "in the ocean" and
in fresh water are two different animals, therefore I apoligize for not properly
clarifying my statement.

	"My test for a good performance hull 17'-20' boat is running it in
	4' waves and seeing what it will do."

	My last boat was a 18' Baja (1980 vintage) with a 175hp outboard (merc).
I could run 2-3' waves (on Winni & Sebago) high into the 40's (MPH).  I could
handle 4' waves at 30MPH **WITHOUT** fearing for my life.  I agree that one
does not want to do this as a matter of common practice, but it sure seperates
the "yuppie" hull design from the "real" hulls.  My new SUNBIRD was on its
madien voyage last weekend and I managed 35MPH in 3' waves with NO problems
at all (3' is baised on the NH SAFTEY PATROL report at the time in the same
vicinity.  I believe that acessment of conditions).

	Looking at a hull is no way to determine its construction and performance
char.  Ya gotta know how/when/where to properly "test" its chara. and when
to stop.  While ocean traveling is a whole other ballgame, I stay in the arena
that I know and can talk about with authority (12 previous boats and numerous
racing events under my belt).  Sorry to confuse you guys with the BIG rigs out
in the big pond of life!

				Garry

    First, I also agree wholeheartedly that too many people tend
    to spend a great deal of time "flaming" others because of their
    personal likes or dislikes. I have refrained from replying to
    previous notes blasting Bayliners ( or any other brand), but I
    can't pass this one up.  Can we discuss the merits, and faults,
    of various brands without making the discussion sound like a personal
    attack on someone who likes Bayliners, or Wellcrafts, or any other
    brand ?  I like  
    a little controversy but let's keep it within some limits.
    
    Gary Baer :  I just got to ask.  What is the difference between
    a 4 foot wave in fresh water and a 4 foot wave in salt water ?
    Are you pulling our leg or does the "salt content" make a denser
    wave ?  Or am I dense ?  Come on Gary. Enlighten us.   

    
    			Won't find me in 4 footers doing 30MPH
    
    	As I said in note 94 there's no way I'd be doing 30 MPH in 4
    foot waves.  I don't care what kind of boat it is, if you abuse
    your boat like that it's not gonna last.  Before you know it nuts/bolts
    and screws will loosen up all over the place.  It's true that maybe
    some hulls are made stronger than others, but abuse like that will
    catch up to any hull.  
    
    Bob
    

ERNIE:
	From my LIMITED experience in the ocean I noticed that the waves
are spaced differently that in fresh water.  The 4' waves in the ocean cannot
be traversed at 30 MPH because you cannot go from top-to-top on the waves.
The ocean waves SEEM to me to be spaced further apart, thus you need a longer
& faster boat to accomplish the task.

BOB:
	Would be glad to give you a live demo in my SUNBIRD or in my old
BAJA.  Up to a point, in 4' waves (fresh water) the faster I go the smoother
it gets, IE your boat spends less time going up-down-up in between the waves
and more time going foward from peek-to-peek.  I used to race tunnel hydro's
and in rough water you HAD to keep you speed up or have your boat destroyed.

		     o
	          \  |   /
		   \____/
		^   ^   ^   ^

	I don't want to get into a heated debate over this, I was just stating
what I require from my boats.  I boat with a man who does not push his boat
over 20MPH and will not venture out in 3' waves and he has a 28' cruser!  It
is just a factor of your personal requirements and your skill/comfort level.
Clearly my wife does not desire to boat w/ me in those conditions and I would
be a fool for taking anyone else who did not understand the dangers of rough
water boating and how to handle themselves.

	Clearly you do not feel comfortable in those conditions  and that is OK.
Clearly I have "tested" boats and raced boats in those conditions and are not
alarmed when faced with 4' waves in a boat of my chosing.  To each his own,
right?
	
	Garry

    
                     *** Ocean Waves vs. Lake Waves ***
    
    After reading thru this #@#^, it seems like the Ocean guys are ganging
    up on the Lake guys.  There are differences in both boating environments.
    The winds speed & direction, open water distance, currents, tides,
    rivers, rocks, etc. would all seem to effect wave size to me.
    
    However, the basics of "boatmanship" and a love of being on the water is
    the common thread amongst us all and is what I enjoy most out of this file.
    If the sailboat people read this note, it would probably renew their
    theory on "all" power boats, are only Stink Pots.  It would seem to me that
    the only equitable way to resolve this (for those who really care) is
    to contact the Coast Guard and the State Park Lake "authorities"
    and ask them to define, how a wave is both measured and reported???
    
    Another option, is to split the file into Ocean vs. Lake boaters.
    I bet the sail boat people would vote for that one (i.e. divide and
    conquer).  What about water skiers, should they be allowed to join
    both???                                                      
    
    I agree with and opt for the people/boaters who said, everyone has their
    own opinions and preferences and thats what this file should be about.
    It seems irrelevent whether its on lakes, rivers, marshes, harbors or
    off-shore which is my personal preference.
    
    Capt. Steve of the  VENTURE TO (?) 
                       

	BTW, at the risk of sounding like I really have gone off the DEEP
END, next week (durring my vacation) I plan on taking a field trip up
to Northern country to try my hand at white-water powerboating.  I have a
aquaintance that races this stuff on a regular basis in 18' jet boats.

	I think he is crazy, but am willing to go and see how it is done and
help co-pilot his rig durring one of the practice runs.  While I would never
try this with my boat (my boat would be destroyed in seconds) I can understand
how their boats withstand that kind of punishment.  In reverse, he would never
take his boat out into the ocean as it would probably be swamped in a matter
of a few minutes.  It is almost a flat-bottem hull with very small 2" gunnels.
That is what allows it to traverse the rapids w/o being sucked into them, very
little depth to the hulls.

RE .10
		"One man's dislikes (boating) is another man's love"

	So as you can see, there are a number of different hull dynamics that
allow one boat to go where another boater would be in fear of life and limb:

	- flat & shallow Vee hull (high performance & whitewater rigs)
	  (easy to plane, ride on top of everything, easy to swamp when at
	   low speeds or stopped w/4-8" draw, slides excessively when cornering)
	   ,least HP per MPH required to plane boat, very small < 5" gunnels)

	- shallow to modified Vee (performance - fresh water rigs w/9"-14" draw)
	  (more stable, slower/deeper planing chara., rides almost on top of
	   water, slides somewhat when cornering, up to 8" gunnels)

	- semi Vee (family fresh/salt water rigs w/15"-24" draw)
	  (relatively safe, dependable, cuts the water & waves, 2-4' gunnels)

	- deep Vee (durable & rugged - Ocean rigs w/>24" draw).
	  (cuts thru everytine in its path at any speed, stern always lower that
	   bow, smooth ride, poor plaining chara., lots of HP per MPH., Most
	   HP per MPH required to plane boat, gunnels as big as feasible)

	Over the years in boating I have found that everytime I said to myself
"that is impossible" sure enough it was possible.  Racing 36' off-shore 
cigarette-style hulls @ 80mph in 8' seas sounds like a death sentence to me
yet boats are build to do just that on a regular basis.

	Just as someday I hope to navigate and own a big rig on the ocean,
I hope those of you who only have ocean experience get the chance to experience
some of the other worlds like 45' Sailer's, Tunnel-Hydro's, Party/pontoon boats,
sunfish sailing, parasailing, powerboat-pulled cross-diving, etc.  Wonder what
the party/pontoon boat owners would say about this discussion??


	Garry

    Bruce,
    
    I agree with you totally!!! I have a 19' Chaparral that is heavy
    for its size (2400lbs dry with a 120 I/O). It has a "Deep-V", somewhere
    about 17 deg deadrise and a big flair on the bow. I work Ontario
    for the USCG AUX and have to move it sometimes when I'd really rather
    not. Ontario tends to have short choppy waves (by ocean standards)
    that beat the p___ out of me at full throttle. 
    
    I had patrol duty last weekend for an Offshore race and had to keep
    a sector clear of spectators. Waves were running 3 to 6'. I let
    go after one guy for about 300 yds and quit. We held the race until
    the CG 22' Whaler got him out of the course. The boat did fine,
    but I couldn't hang on to maintain control. A real stupid situation,
    so I let the jerk go (it cost him a ticket since the CG got him).
    
    As far as brand quality, you have to admit some boats are built
    cheaper and sold cheaper to get the public inticed. Bayliner is
    one of these "Price Boats". Nothing wrong with that as long as you
    know what your getting and don't intend to do any unnatural act
    with it. If it fits the owner's needs, great!! Personaly, I want
    a Grady White 24 footer, but its out of my range at least for 6
    years (kids & college).
    
    I guess my statement is "To each his own", as long as you know what
    your own is!
    
    Don

    	The right boating equipment with the right driver and you van
    take the equipment to it's limits. My experience is that a well
    made boat , rigged corectly can take far more abuse than it's driver
    unless wearing the proper equipment ie kidney belt and standing
    in a bolster. the new offshore racing boats now use full support
    seating with body harnesses and f-16 canopies with air bottles.
    Does this tell us anything ? If you have a specific purpose on the
    water your equipment and your abilities should reflect it. I have
    gone 60+ mph. in a 15 footer in 4ft + seas and lived to tell about
    it if interested I have photo albums with some interesting picures.
    I find offshore rough water RACING EXCILLARATING, but exen I admit
    that some of the things I've done were stupid but you learn through
    experience.
    
    	Bill
    

    There goes that word again SNOTTY< SNOTTY<SNOTTY>
    Last time I listened to Joe he said Don't worry the Race is allways
    "SNOTTY" Yea like 25 ft breaking seas in a 45 kt full gale.
    
    
                                 SNOTTY ?
    
                              Beam Me Up !
    
                   
    
    
    
    

    re: 97.15
    
    > ..25ft breaking seas...
    
       I think we need some ground rules for judging seas. I usually measure
    from the base of the wave to the top of the same wave, not the distance
    from one wave to the next.
    
    Living in CT I have been thru the Race many, many times, even in
    storms and have never seen anything larger than 8 - 10 ft seas,
    nor have I heard of anyone else encountering these tidal waves.
    incidently, the 8 - 10 were in a gale.
    
    Capt. My_2_cents_worth

    Not a word of a lie. Check the weather reports. May 7 th & 8 th
     It took me two days to make it from Old Saybrook to Pocassett.
    Spent the night in JamesTown R.I.
    
    I've got a Thirty Foot Deep keel Alura and she was taking bluewater
    over the windshield and burying the bow pulpit.
    
    Had to ride it out as there was no place to pull into port after
    we past New London until we reached Jamestown.
    
    What a ride!  The only other time I've been in worse was off bermuda
    in 60 footers in a typoon. But I was also in a 298 ft boat.
    
                       Surf'in U.S.A.
    B.T.W. Two boats went down in the storm.
    One off Block, The other off the East End of the Canal
    
    And one Very Large Trawler sunk on her Madien Voyage off Cape Cod.
    
                      Now That's "SNOTTY"
    

    
    Can I stop "listening" to this conversation until SOMEbody
    defines some terms?  I saw one note a while back that 
    suggested asking CG / State people to tell how they measure
    waves, but no reaction yet...
    
    In discussing wave HEIGHTs, everybody seems to be ignoring
    wave LENGTHs involved.  I can see no problem with nice
    slow-rolling 4-foot ocean waves, but wouldn't want to
    tackle the SAME height waves when they come close together.  
    
    Can we get together on our terms, or will we continue
    talking about different things, called by the same name?
    
                                    - Ed -

    Maybe these definitions will help, but remember that most of the
    time judging sea conditions is highly dependant on the skill of
    the person making the estimate. In a few locations there are
    direct measurement means available (such as reference marks on the
    side of fixed structure), but mostly you're on your own when
    estimating.
    
    Wave height equals the vertical distance from the trough to the
    crest.
    
    Wave length equals the distance between adjacent troughs or crests.
    
    Wave period equals the time interval measured between the passage
    of adjacent troughs or crests and is a function of both wave length
    and speed over the bottom. As already mentioned this is a major
    factor when estimating the "sea state".
    
    Hope this helps,
    Jerry            Who_has_only_one_task_before_Coxswain_qualification
     

    re 97.16
    
    > Living in CT I have been thru the Race many, many times, even
    > in  storms and have never seen anything larger than 8 - 10 ft seas,
    > nor have I heard of anyone else encourtering these tidal waves.
    > incidently, the 8 - 10 were in a gale.
    >
    >   Capt. My_2_cents_worth
    
    This is a discussion about measuring wave height.  Lets keep what
    you were doing to gale whoever out of this!

    A P.S. to .19
    
    Forgot to mention the wave slope which is perhaps the most directly
    felt measure of waves....you know....the pounding you and the boat
    must endure is highly related to slope.
    
    Wave slope equals the ratio of wave height to wave length.
    
    Jerry