Conference vicki::boats

Sounds like you're on the right track by starting with something
small, getting some experience and then moving up. All of the
brands that you mentioned are pretty reputable and you'd probably
be happy with any one of them. Unfortunately as we've been finding
out, dealers who are both competent and reputable are like hen's
teeth. If you want good service count on doing a lot of the maintenance
and repair work yourself. It seems to be the only way.

I would highly recommend waiting for the Boston In Water Boat Show.
on Aug 18-21. There will be about 300 boats on display so you can
shop brand, price and dealer. It's also a great time to buy, as with
the sales season beginning to wind down the dealers are looking at
the possibility of being stuck with a large inventory.

Rick W.

    I don't know why everyone seems so down on Bayliners. Now stop -
    don't indulge or engulf me with your negative opinions - I've heard
    them all before, and it I haven't heard them "all", I don't want
    to hear any new complaints. How could a boat that is rated as poorly
    (as so many seem to think) win Powerboat Mag's "Boat of the Year"
    for 4 years in row?
    
    Back to the reply... If you want to see Larson and Bayliner, try
    U.S. Marine at the Shrews/Worc line on rte 20. just 1/2 mile before
    Gauch Bros.

    Re: .2
    
    Bill
    
    Again I am trying to gather info. My only knowledge of Bayliner
    is what I have heard.
    
    If you have first hand experience, I would appreciate hearing about
    what you think.
    
    I have not ruled anything out, or in at this point.
    
    Jim

	I think SEARAY gives you the most for the money and but of course,
	I am very partial seeing as how I own one and all.  I bought from
	Dedham Sportsman's Center and I got all the options that Stingray
	offers, floor storage, compass, bilge pump...(auto--mine was the only
	boat that didn't sink during a severe storm at Sebago), good electric
	horn and complete canvas.  On top of all this, which came standard by
	the way was a windshield wiper and the heavier EZ Loader trailer...
	these were also standard.  At the time, late 87, this all cost over a
	grand less than a comperably equiped Stingray and Gauch didn't offer 
	the bigger trailer, (boats are very close to the same weight and 
	size).  I've got over 100 hours on my Searay now with only one 
	problem,  power steering vibrated...fixed it myself with a little
	grease.  The only draw back was that Searay only offered the smaller
	Mercruiser, 165 hp but the boat does 46 with a 21" Quicksilver Turbo
	prop.  Both the 17 and 19 in the Seville line come Outboard or I/O.

	The sales department was great and in my opinion worth the trip but 
	the service department makes me nervous.  I wouldn't travel back
	to Dedham for their service.

	Good luck__mike

    I can't offer any advice on which brand is the best but I can state
    my personal satisfaction with SeaRay.  This past summer I purchased
    the 16' (actually measures 17') Seville with the outboard engine.
    So far it has been a terrific boat in terms of reliability, handling,
    performance and overall family satisfaction.  My only problem has
    been with the speedometer not working and that is believed to be
    correct and will be verified this weekend.
    
    I must admit that in my area, Midwest, that the SeaRay wasn't the
    lowest cost boat to purchase, Bayliner was less expensive, but when
    comparing what I perceived as quality in construction and dealer
    responsiveness the decision was easy.  
    
    My thoughts on dealers and service won't do you any good unless you 
    were to come to the Midwest to purchase. My experience so far this 
    summer is that the dealers in this area appear to have a more
    responsive attitude to the customer than some of the East cost dealers.

    One last thought, and that is make sure you purchase a boat large
    enough to meet your needs and desires.  Though I have no complaints
    about my SeaRay, already thoughts/dreams of 24+ foot boats are dancing
    thru my head.  
    
    Regards
  

RE: .2

	Bill - if you look at the dealer stats on how many CRACKED, BROKEN,
of otherwise "DAMAGED" hull you will find that bayliners (1985-6) had the
worst record in the industry.  That is where the Bayliner bashing stems from.
Additionally, I "tested" my firend's 18' out in 4' waves @ 30mph.  It felt like
the hull was going to disinigrate at any time, but that is just my opinion.

RE: .0 

	In regards to the main question, here are the things I think are 
important in a 18-20' bowrider used fo everything:

	1) oversized bow seating.  Doesn't make sense to get a bowrider
	   if 2 "normal" adults feel cramped sitting in the bow.  Larson
	   seems to have the biggest bow config in the 18' range.  (DC-190 I/O)
	   The 20' SUNBIRD I bought was overkill on the bow seating (EUROSPORT
	   II SL)

	2) STORAGE.  I went into a 20' SUNBIRD to get the extra storage
	   I always seemed to lack in my 18' rigs.  Such things as below
	   deck storage for several skis, anchor, kids misbehaving' etc!

	3) Ample I/O powering - I wanted better economy but still have the
	   ability to pull 2 skiers w/ people & equipment in the boat.
	   The outboards I had (175 merc & 150 Johnson) were great power
	   machines @ 18 gal/hour (quite expensive).  A large V6 or V8
	   should power a 18' or >18' correctly with modest fuel economy
	   at reasonable speeds (35mph).

	4) features - I personally like the Sunlounger option which moves the
	   "people" weight further forward in the boat but the back-to-back
	   seating does offer greater seating capacity as well as easier access
	   to the engine for DIY repairs.  Other things like LOTS of high-impact
	   high-density padding everywhere is very important with kids in the
	   boat.  RAdio/tape is "nicer" if it is integrated into the design
	   (ala private door to hide it).  Power steering is nice (once you
	   get used to it).

	5) Stick with a well known powertrain (OMC or MERC).  Other brands
	   may be "better" or "cheaper" but OMC uses (75%) off-the-shelf GM
	   parts that I can replace via my local auto parts store.  Very
	   important when marina's have 3 month lead times just to get you
	   in the door.

	6) look for the 1-piece hull/swim platform.  I really really enjoy
	   mine as it does not have any flex with 3 "adults" sitting on
	   it.  Also serves (sort-of) as a bumper in a close docking situation.
	   Last weekend someone hit my swim platform while I was docked and
	   did (significant) gouging to their hull.  No visible signs of damage
	   to my platform rubber-baby-buggy-bumper. That never occured to me
	   when shopping for boats.

	7) Wide beam - The wider the better.  I have an 8' (96") beam and as a
	   result, alot of stability at low/no speed.  My last boat was 76"
	   and I realy noticed the difference when trailering.

	8) Instruments - I prefer the analog "270 degree sweep" style of guages.
	   I have driven boats with the new hi-tech graphic guages and find
	   them hard to read in direct sunlight.  This is a particular issue
	   for me as I want to know engine status as all time via a single
	   glance.  270 degree guages are designed to point (oil, temp, wpsi)
	   in the same direction under normal conditions (per racing specs)
	   This means you only have to note the positions of critical guages
	   instead of internalizing what the position means.

	These are some of the things I have found to be valuble for me in
an family bowrider durring our summer shopping spree.  To beat a dead dealer
service issue some more and to summerize:

	1)get the best deal (on a manufacturer w/ good reputation); 

	2)order a FULL service manual on boat/powertrain;

	3)other that warrenty issues, DIY! (Do It Yourself)

	I feel infinitely safer knowing that the engine and related equipment
is working rather that "trusting" someone that fixes boats and sells lawn and
garden equipment.  Good luck on your search!!

			Cheers!

			Garry

    
    	Another satisfied SeaRay owner here, 17ft '87 with the 140 motor.
    It might/could be/dunno yet   for sale soon, depends.

    	Reg
    
        {& YES thanks folks, the repair IS holding VERY WELL :-^)}

    Reg
    
    Let me know if is, will be or mabey. From what I have heard, this
    is a very nice rig....................except for what repair!
    
    Jim
    

    
    RE .2
    
    	Bill, I tend to agree with you that everyone is making Bayliners
    worse than they really are.  I can say this with a great deal of
    confidence because I own a 17' Bayliner.  So far the only problems
    I've had with it is the lack of service from the dealership.
    
    RE .6
    
    	Not sure of the number of hull "problems" that Bayliner has/had,
    but I'm sure the number is higher because there are probably more
    Bayliners out on the water than any other single brand.
    
    	Not to sway to much from the original question, it comes down
    to what you intend to use the boat for.  I agree with .6 and I wouldn't
    be caught dead out in 4' waves at 30 mph with my boat.  I use mine
    mostly on calm water like lakes and inlets and do a lot of skiing,
    tubing, and cruising.  I have the the OMC I/O Cobra with a 120hp.
    No problem whatsoever pulling up a 205 lb, both foot in the ski,
    slalom skier with 4 other people in the boat.  It's also capable
    of around 40 mph under the same conditions.  Front bow is more than
    adequate for two adults and the rest of the boat is still pretty
    roomy for a 17 footer.  Storage could be better, but its not bad.
    Boat comes with everything including tops and bunk trailer.  I have
    no trouble towing this boat around or at the launch ramps.
    
    	This is my first boat and my second year with it.  I was nervous
    about buying "used" so we went out and bought we felt a lot of boat
    for the money.  The only real proble we had (not any more though)
    is the bad attitude and poor workmanship of the service dept.  Now
    that the boat is no longer under warranty (1 year) and I have have
    all my service manuals, I don't ever anticipate going back there.
    
    	If I could do it all over, I don't think I would have changed
    my decision on the boat, dealerships maybe.  I stayed with a top
    name for the powerplant (not crazy about O/B's, especially a Force
    O/B).  I also looked at Sea Ray's and that was definelty my second
    choice.  If I ever upgrade to another, I think Sea Ray may get my
    money this time.  Good Luck.  Those boat shows are coming around
    the corner.
    
    
    Bob
    

    re .8	I have nothing to hide, just joking with the other members
    of the conference, see the dry stitching topic for details and a
    couple of other topics for sly references to it :-^).  There's
    nothing miraculous about it, though it seemed so at the time just
    to FIND someone who could do that (these days).  I'm not looking
    to  "UNLOAD"  this boat on anyone, I believe that the repair will
    almost certainly outlast most of the rest of the boat.  Its just
    that I've fallen_in_lust_with another boat, if I can swing it
    financially, i.e. make the furniture last another year (or ten)
    etc., etc.
    
    	Reg
    

    I've been mostly reading this conf for some time, mainly because
    I'm looking for a new boat myself.
    
    I've seen lots of references to Bayliner quality, most of them
    negative.  So, this raises one question in my mind:  Dollar-for-dollar,
    how would Bayliner be rated?  (The old "You get what you pay for").
    
    Lee

    
    	I bought a Larson 16.5' bowrider I/O from Marine USA last July,
    and couldn't be happier with it. We got the boat, up-graded trailer,
    mooring cover, ski-package, and Mercruiser 120 for $9200. We had
    looked at quite a few boats, both new and used, and felt that this
    was the best package for the money. There is ample room to carry
    up to 8 people, it will deep start a 200 lb. slalom skier with 
    600 lbs of people on board, and will do about 37 mph with a 17"
    prop.
    	I do agree with what I have heard many times in this file though.
    Marine USA is a good place to buy from, but they are a pain for
    service.
    
    Dan
    

re .11
    
<    I've seen lots of references to Bayliner quality, most of them
<    negative.  So, this raises one question in my mind:  Dollar-for-dollar,
<    how would Bayliner be rated?  (The old "You get what you pay for").
    
	I'm probably sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, but here
goes anyway.

	I've been looking at a lot of boats in the last couple years, read
magazines, and visited boat shows.  It is my impression that dollar for dollar
in a Bayliner you'll get more FEATURES for a given $$$, more length, more beam,
head, galley, portholes, storage space, guages, powerplant options.  In the
"You get what you pay for" department, the manufacturer has to cut some costs
somewhere in order to provide the features.  From what I've seen personally,
and heard in this conference the cost cutting is done in the construction of
the hull, decks, and bulkheads.  The higher priced boats are hand layed, woven
fiberglass, in many layers, with the resin painted/sprayed over.  The Bayliner,
MonArk (the manufacturer of my boat) and some others use 'chopper gun' 
fiberglass where the glass fibers are loose and mixed with the resin and applied
to the mold with a gun (of sorts).  They kind of squirt a layer of the 
glass/resin mixture all over the mold and allow it to harden.  You can see the
difference by looking in the bilge area of the boat.  The woven glass has a
very even texture, whereas the chopper gun hull is very rough (it would almost
give you splinters).  The difference in the techniques (from the consumer
standpoint) is strength.  The woven glass get its strength from the long strands
of the fiberglass cloth, whereas the chopper gun uses short strands and the
resin supplies the strength.  Another quality issue in the chopper gun hull is
uniform thickness of the mixture.  It was reported that for a while BASS TRACKER
fiberglass hulls had this problem, one side of the hull was significantly
thicker/heavier than the other side (I presume they solved the problem, because
at the time they were not shipping many boats).  If rough water, pounding surf,
maximum power, and tough treatment is not an issue for you, then perhaps the
trade off of features for contruction technique is not a problem.  However if
you're expecting you may have to come back 20 or 30 miles in a squall, then
the extra heavy layed glass construction should be a consideration.

	For what ever it's worth CAJUN offers what they call ARMOR-CORE hulls
which will sustain a .32 Cal bullet shot from 6' and not be purceptable from
the inside of the hull (not even spider cracks).  CAJUN felt that the impact
of the bullet was about the same as hitting a submerged rock at 50 mph.

	My $.02,
			Al

There are many factors to consider when puchasing a boat including
quality, appearance, reliability, performance, resale value, rep-
utation etc. Bayliner may be better than some, worse than others
when it comes to the physical aspects of the boat. Everyone has
their opinions based on their own experience. But the one thing
that I think we all would have to agree on is that whether they
deserve it or not, Bayliner does a have a bad reputation. Otherwise,
why would we be having this conversation?

Now if you never intend to sell your boat resale value and reputation
would have no bearing on your selection. If you're like most of us
though, you WILL someday sell or trade up. This is when resale value
and reputation come into play. What is needed is a boat that can be
traded in at almost any dealer, or sold at a fair price to anyone
who is in the market for a boat like yours. I have spoken with dealers
who have told me they would not take a Bayliner in trade. A good
quality, well maintained boat will hold much of its value at trade-in
or sale time, but this does not appear to be true with Bayliner.

Everyone who buys a new boat does not necessarily buy a Hatteras or
a Bertram. What you need to do is decide how much quality you are
willing to pay for, and weigh the lower initial purchase price against
how much of that cost you can afford to lose at trade-in time. In other
words, a $12,000 Sea Ray that sells for $10,000 two years later may be
a better deal than an $11,000 Bayliner that sells for $7,000 two years
later. (Brand names and prices picked arbitrarily, no endorsements or
offense intended).  ;^)

Rick W.

    I too am new to boating and in the market for a 17' bowrider. Based
    on the responses to this note  the Searay seems to be a good value.
    Does anyone know if there's a Searay dealer in the Southern Mass
    or Rhode Island areas? Thanks in advance for the response.
    

    And I wondered why I had been read-only for so long... 
    
    Actually, I like some of what is comming out of this given topic,
    and eslewhere I saw a comment that these differences in opinions
    is what is so good about a notes conference like this - it lets a
    person be exposed to others opinions to form thier own!
    
    Back on topic...
    
    I look at .0 and see that Mr. Dalton would be focused on Lakes.
    I would never take my 17' Bayliner to the ocean because it has anodized
    aluminum rails - not chrome! I knew this, and I conciously made
    the decision to never go salt when I bought my Bayliner. 
    
    I also see he is looking for this fall or next spring. My personal
    experience was to buy a 1 year old Bayliner from a dealer on Lake
    W. (Meredith Marina). I got the boat at his depreciated price because
    if he sold it for more, then he would have a capital gains tax.
    This way was easiest for all, and saved me much $. ($6k for boat
    motor and trailer, with a 3 mo. warrenty). And I had my choice between
    about a dozen rental units, so naturally I picked the one that looked
    the best - could have been brand new for all I could tell!
    
    Note .6 made some good points about bowriders and selection. I agree
    that the Bayliner bow is cramped for a full size adult (I'm 6' 2"),
    but I've never ridden on a 17' bowrider that wasn't cramped up front.
    I'm even cramped on a Stingray! Now if you move to a 19' I've got
    plenty of room, but I don't want to trailer a 19' boat that much.
    It all seems to be a compromise.
    
    That reminds me. A Bayliner 17' is rated 5 people. A Stingray 17'
    is rated 8 people. Mr. Dalton say's he has a family of 5, so he'd
    be maxed out with just family and no room for friends.
    
    I would reccomend that a few phone calls to some lake W. rental
    shops and ask about buying used rentals would be good way to get
    a feel for what the options are while waiting for the boat shows.
    
    Bill, a very happy Bayliner owner.

    Re .16
    
    Bill
    
    First, please call me Jim....I keep looking over my shoulder for
    my father everytime I hear Mr.
    
    More important.
    
    This Saturday I leave for two weeks vacation in Merideth. Not Lake
    W. but a small lake called something like Waukeewan (don't kill
    me if mispelled I only rent). Anyway can you give me any more details
    on who, what, when, how and what time of year you bought your Bayliner.
    
    Also you indicated it was a rental. Any problems with it since you
    have owned it?  Without being to nosey, you also mentioned saving
    6K of boat, motor and trailer. My understanding is that the 17'
    outboard (85hp?) goes for something like 7.5 to 8K and the I/O goes
    for 9.5 to 10k. Are these the right ballpark?
    
    Any further info you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
    
    One last comment. I appreciate all the info people have given so
    far. Buying this fall or next spring is certainly my goal so please
    continue to add comments to this note.
    
    Thanks
    
    Jim

    Just a comment on boat buying in general...
    
    I am getting close to moving up and have been talking to a dealer
    who I might add is very knowledgeable, willing to work with me
    to get into this boat and they have a very impressive boat yard,
    they even do custom wood work for many other dealers in the area.
    In other words I am really impressed with this place for sales and
    the eventuyally reality of service.But anyway to get to my point...
    
    You may want to consider ordering you boat now, locking in the price
    and options and then take delivery in the spring. This gives
    you the advatage of price now and don't pay till later. This is
    the type of deal I am working on, the advantage to the dealer is
    that they can order the boat and not have to pay any finance charge.
    
    
    Good luck...also if you order it now you get to dream about using
    it all winter and it may not make sense to make those payments
    over the winter when you only have another 6 weeks of good weather
    (sorry folks that reality although I was fishing until Nov. 1st
    last year).
    
    Bruce

    Jim, 
    
    Sorry about the "Mr. D" stuff, I didn't have your first name in the
    upper window when I was replying... 
    
    The dealer is Bob Briggs - Meredith Marina (603 279-7921). I started
    looking in early May, found this guy on a reccomendation from a buddy
    of mine who has a summer place on Lake W. in Moultonboro, and we closed
    the deal in late May and I picked up the boat on June 3 of last year. I
    wanted it sooner, but Bob was too busy prep'ing boats from winter
    storage. 

    My buddy had worked many a summer up at lake W. at boat dealers when he
    was younger. He recommended this strategy to me when I complained about
    how expensive new boats were. I feel lucky, or maybe it was sales hype,
    but Bob Briggs pointed out to that his rental units got few hours put
    on them the summer of '85 due to the rainy weekends (remember the
    summer of '85 - it rained almost every weekend!) 
    

    Here's some real rough directions... As you come down from rte 3, take
    a left to head towards Meredith. 1/2 way down the hill - take a left
    just before the bridge. This is a small road that leads through a
    residential neighborhood. At the end of the road (1/4 mile) go right
    and go down the hill over the tracks. Go right again onto a dirt road
    and under a railway bridge - you are then in his boat yard. Bob is a
    very reasonable guy, but my only experience with him was the purchase,
    and then a couple of mail order items (cover, spare prop) before I
    found a more local dealer. 
    
    My experience with the Bayliner has been most positive. It's and
    '85 that I bought in May '86. The only service that has been done
    has all been by myself. I.E. winter prep with fogging, repacking
    propeller, replacing lower unit lube and new plugs. It still runs
    great to the point where I wonder if/when I'll have to have a "real"
    tune up. 
    
    When I bought the boat the new 86's were listing somewhere around 7.5K
    with the 85 hp ob. The prices you quote seem to be still the same.
    
    Two words about i/o vs. ob. The Bayliner i/o weighs about 800 lbs more
    than the ob. This is a factor to consider when you are going to
    trailer. I know I wouldn't want to haul much more than what I've got
    now, and I'm towing with a Jeep Cherokee. However, the i/o will
    go 10-15 mph faster.

    good luck, and when you come back from vacation, let me (us boater
    noters) know what your experience was. 

    Re: .17
    
    Jim,
    
    	Not sure how much the OB's are going for , but my 17' Bayliner
    with the 120 hp OMC I/O cost $8400 in the spring of 87.  Shopping
    around and making the best deal helped about $500 worth.
    
    Re: .19
    
    	My boat and motor weigh in at 1600lbs.  Not much at all especially
    behind my full size Jimmy.  Not sure what the top end of the 85
    hp Force is, but mine will do low 40's in smooth water.  (speedo
    is not all that accurate I'm sure.  Plenty of power to get this
    200 lb slalom skier out of the water in a hurry.
    
    	As far as room is concerned, there's plenty for more than 5
    adults.  Again I only take mine to lakes and calm water.
    
    	Don't buy anything until you can take it for a spin.  If you
    go for the Force OB, make sure there are places close by that will
    work on it (if you don't do it yourself that is).
    
    	Good Luck.  I waited until the boat shows to make my decision
    and didn't buy until 2 months later.  I got a better price after
    the show too.
    
    Bob
    

    
    Check this monthes Small Boat Journal for a writeup on 5 16 - 17
    foot open bow types - some with names which look real familiar to
    someone reading this topic

      I too went from a 14', 40 hp to a 17' Searay and am very satisfied
    with the new boat. One thing I seemed to overlook when shopping
    for the boat was how I was gonna get it to the water! I was told
    "no problem" by the dealer when I explained to him I would be towing
    the new boat with my 86 Ply Voyager. When I made the maiden voyage
    up to Otis Res. I found out my Big 4 cyl wasn't big enough!! So,
    I now own a 77 Blazer with a big 400 v8 /4wd just to tow on the
    weekends! The message here is don't overlook towing capacity on
    your vehicle when concentrating on the new boat! Good luck,
                                                       Bob

    I have a 19' Chaparral Bow Rider with a Mercruiser 120 and love
    it. Its NOT a "Price" boat. It went for 12.5K in '82. (list) The
    thing I looked for was weight and ease of cleaning (carpet vs
    fiberglass floor). The Chaparral has glass. Bayliner IS a price
    boat.
    Some good ones; Penn Yan, Four Winns, Searay, Grady (the BEST),
    Larson___.
    I think comparing the weight for the same configuration gives you
    a good idea of how the hull will hold up. 
    Either OMC-COBRA or Mercruiser are good I/Os. If I did it over again,
    I'd probably go for a closed cooling system and a 170 (still a four
    banger).
    
    Don

    Just curious.  How much hull weight do you guys have per HP?
    
    Example :   I have 1100 lbs. with 75 hp =   14.7 lb/hp (no people)
    
    Nelson
    

	19' Sunbird bowrider - 2950 lbs - 260 hp I/O == 

			11.35 lbs / hp

		Garry

                           25' Northern (Sailboat)
    
                               5800 lbs - 10 Hp
    
                                  580 lbs/hp
    
    /jim ;-) 

    
    	17' Baja 174 Sunsport - 1700 lbs - 205 HP I/O
    
    			= 8.29 lbs/HP
    
    						-mike-

    
    
    16 1/2' Larson DC165 Citation- 1700lbs - 120 HP I/O
    			=14.17lbs/HP
    
    Dan
    

    re .19
    Bill
    
    Just got back from vacation up north. Stopped at Mederith Marine
    (twice). Each time they were real busy with boat rentals and when
    I aske for Bob what I got was he is not here and then the person
    went on to the next customer. based on that I did not pursue the
    idea of buying from the rental fleet. In fairness to them, each
    time I went it was not good for them and they really were extremely
    busy.
    
    Some other interesting notes, on day two my family confirmed that
    our 14' was two small.....and I though I would have to do a sales
    job. But we did have a lot of fun and the family really got into
    boating. Half the battle won (the other half is always the money).
    
    Based on all the relative negative stuff I have seen and heard about
    marina's and service I want to add my first experience. Toward the
    end of the first week with the 14', at full speed, the engine just
    died. Restarted it and tried again and the same thing happened.
    I was able to restart each time and go very slow, but as soon as
    I gave it more gas it would die.
    
    Spend the next day changing the plugs and checking the gas filter
    and now it would not start. 
    
    My first experience with having to find service. Went back to Meredith
    Marine, but they do not service Mercury and told me if they did
    it would be a two week wait. I only had one week of vacation left.
    
    They sent me to Shep Brown's on Merideth Neck Road for a Mercury
    dealer and service. I expected the same answer, a two week wait,
    but instead I got bring it in tomorrow afternoon (I could not believe
    it). Brought it in and they told me to come back the next afternoon
    (Saturday).
    
    Came back Saturday at 12.01 and it was ready. They told me it had
    water in the carb and fuel bowel. While I watched, they launched
    it, started it and took it for a spin of about 15 minutes at full
    speed. Everything was fine and it cost me $58 for 1 and 1/2 hour
    of labor.
    
    Small price to pay, I was happy and had another week's vacation.
    
    Got the boat back to where I was staying and did not have time to
    launch Saturday as the family had other plans for the afternoon.
    
    Sunday morning, launched the boat and guess what, it would not start.
    By now I knew enough to check the fuel bowel for water, but nothing
    but gas.
    
    Tried to start it again Monday am and would not start. Put it on
    the trailer and took it back to Shep Browns and expected a fight.
    
    I arrived late morning and it started to shower. Went inside and
    spoke to the service manager and explained what happened. Again
    to my surprise he asked me if I could wait a few minutes until it
    stopped raining and he would have someone look at it.
    
    Few minutes later it stopped, fellow (I think his name was Brian
    but can't be sure) came out with a Mercury manual and a test guage
    and proceeded to check the entire ignition system. An hour later
    we put it in the water and it started on the first pull (manual
    start). Did this four or five times, secured some wires better than
    they were before and apologized for not finding the loose wire the
    first time, apologized for my having to come back a second time,
    shook my hand and said have a noce day and walked away.
    
    I was stunned. I expected a fight, I was loosing vacation (boating)
    time and all I got was very friendly, helpful people. I am not even
    convinced the loose wire should have been found the first time since
    they tested it with me there and it started the first pull.
    
    Needless to say I highly recommend this place. If I lived in the
    area I would probably buy a new boat from them even if it was not
    exactly what I wanted and was more expensive.
    
    This is a long tale, but felt I should share it. I am a first time
    boater, was on vacation and felt it was ruined, BUT a mariner, Shep
    Brown's saved the vacation. Must be the diamond in the rough! 
    
    BTW, the 14' will be listed very quickly in note 3. Great boat,
    but to small for a family of 5.

    Jim,
    
    I never would reccomend going to the Merideth Marina for Service - I
    had a similiar experience to yours where I was dealing with them
    through the Mail, and it took forever to get the Boat Cover I ordered! 
    
    My reccomendation was intended to be for a place to investigate
    inexpensive boat. It is also the one Bayliner dealer I know at Lake W.. 
    
    My buddy whom I menitoned in earlier notes used to work at Shep Browns
    (15 years back), and as such I am faithfull in his (my buddy's)
    reccomendations of Shep's as a good service place. But, as I recall he
    didn't have any rentals for sale at the time I was buying, and I
    couldn't afford brandy new.
    
    Good luck in your pursuit of a new boat!

    I noticed while surveying the notes that no one commented on Doug
    Russell.  I bought my first boat 17' bowrider with 140hp omc i/o
    from him about this time last year.  The whole package, new but
    86 boat, 87 engine, and E-Z load trailer cost around $8.5K.  Add
    in 2 sets of skis, tube knee board, 3 jackets, cushions, coast guard
    equipment and 5 year warantee it totaled $9.2K.  There was an extra
    prop included.  I thought it was a great deal, but then after meeting
    Doug Russell, I decided he was the person I wanted to deal with
    so I didn't shop around.  
    
    I found Doug to be very honest.  He delivered what he said he would
    deliver.  He made everything clear to me.  I've taken the boat back
    for servicing and he did the job.  I didn't get the feeling that
    I was dealing with a used car dealer.  He was up front.  When he
    recommended something, he stated sound reasons for them.  He seemed
    a little afraid to turn on a real sell job.  He tried to provide
    exactly what I needed and no more.  It was a pleasant experience.
    The only problem is that I live in NH and he is in Wocester.  
    
    Hope this helps,
    Dave

	Hee is a few of the reccomendations I and some of my associates have
compiled in our travels.  Hope it helps:


RE: Shep Brown's marina (Lake Winni.)

	In all the years I have spent up north I have only heard one bad
experience about Brown's, and it is not clear to me that the boat owner wasnt
most of the problem.  I have found over the years that they are very good
reputable people to deal with in general.

RE: Meredith Marina (Lake Winni.)

	All I have heard is negative about them.  2 of my associates have had
to initiate legal action for various reasons over the years.  I (just for fun)
went there last year to get them to quote me for a new boat and they coulden't
even do that correctly (never got back to me as they comitted to).  I suspect
they have a good business with moorings, docking, storage, gas, etc and are
not really "hungry" for other business.  As a result I would rather find someone
that WANTS my business.

RE: Doug Russell (Worcester, Mass)

	I dealt with Doug several years ago and had only a few minor problems.
He is good at running a small operation like the one he now has providing you
know something about boating.  Marina USA (formerl owned by Doug) really "ran
away" from Doug and as a result developed a very "BAD" reputation for Service
amoung other things.  I personally would deal with Doug again but know many
people that would just as soon "shoot him on site".


RE: Stu Browns (lake Sunapee)

	Have heard several conflicting stories.  He has a good rep. with all
my Hi-performance buddies that like to go higher-faster-futher.... etc.  I
have never had personal dealings with him (other than phone conversations) but
suspect he is better with hi-end, Baja-type (Hi mike) people rather than
16', entry-level, 35hp boater.

RE: Wilderness Marina (Milford NH) 

	Just bought my Sunbird from them this year.  Basically good $$$ for new
stuff, but there setup and service operations seems to be running them.  They
"dropped the ball" on several phases of setup, delivery, Warrenty repair on my
rig and have heard this is not unusual from several people that boat near me.
They seem like nice enough people but do not deal with the "front line" help.
Go directly to Jerry (sales) or Bob (Service) and posibably one or two others
that I do not remember.

	Thats all I have for now.  Hope it is not too far off the current
direction this TOPIC is taking.

	Garry

re .32

	Thanks Garry for those recommendations. Since you brought up a dealer 
who I have had the PLEASURE of dealing with for the past 2 years, I would just
like to add a little info about Browns Auto and Marine in Newport/Lake Sunapee
NH (Baja Dealer).

	I bought my Baja 174 Sunsport from Browns (along with Mike Smith) and 
am very pleased with the amount of time and effort he has shown in ordering/
servicing/giving advice/etc.. in the time since I've been dealing with him. 
The day's when Baja just built 16-18' lake boats are gone, Baja builds boats of
all sizes/prices/purposes.

	Stewert runs a small, personal type of dealership...a breath of fresh
air these days.... So give him a try and tell him I sent you, you could do MUCH
worse elsewhere.

	PS. I have NO connection with Browns Marine, other then 
	    a very satisfied customer.

							Boats Co-Moderator
							      -mike-