Conference vicki::boats

Hi Rick,

I can't give you any info on how to ski around the boat, but I'd
sure like to talk about slalom skiing.

One of the things I've been working on this summer is turning.
As I come across the wake, I try to keep my knees bent and close
together.  When I come to the spot where I think I should make
the turn, I straighten out (my legs) and push, switch edges
and lean.

Some of the advice I've gotten through this file is to develop a
rhythm, this seems to help.  It also helps if I'm skiing slow, about
28 mph.  If I ski faster than that, I lose my rhythm and sometimes
balance because things are happening too fast. I think its also important 
to turn early, rather than late.  

The cheater I put on the ski works nicely, the fear of skipping is gone,
so I can concentrate on resisting more fully and getting better
acceleration.

What I like most about slalom is the workout it gives.  You can really
wear yourself out! 

My next goal will be one-handed turns, :>).

        Jeanne               
    
        

    
    
    	Jeanne,
    
    		Glad to hear your slalom is coming along so well...
    
    	Once you figure out which hand needs to leave the handle on
    turns and get the timing down, removing one hand from the handle
    on slalom turns really increases your turning ability.
    
    	The hand to remove is of course the outside one, the one
    away from the wake. At first, just let go of the handle, but
    keep your free hand within grabbing distance of the handle.
    As your timing improves and the release of the handle fits
    into your rhythm then increase the distance, but no further
    than your hip.
    
    	The other thing to look for is where the arm left holding
    the bag (I mean rope :-) ) is pointing. It should be aimed
    directly at the tow pylon.
    
    Rick

Re: .0

Rick, it sounds to me like the skier just ain't going fast enough,
you gotta hammer it across that wake.

Re: .1 Jeanne, first things first.  The one arm turn is important,
and it will come much easier than you think, it's not hard, it's
just getting over the fear of letting go.  More important though
is your knees.  NEVER, I REPEAT NEVER EVER EVER, straighten your
knees.  Knees bent and pushed forward is what slows you for the 
turn.  Get this down first, or at the higher speeds you'll come
sailing into the bouy with more slack than you can figure out what
to do with, I promise.

Rob

    
    Re .1
    
    Jeanne you mentioned slowing down to 28 mph in order to get your
    timing and balance.  I agree that slowing down will help learning
    the basics, but weighing in at 200 I'm afraid I might sink into
    the water.  Can anyone tell me what speed I should be
    learning/improving my technique at?  Anything less than 34/35 and
    it feels like I'm sinking or at least getting a lot of spray in
    the face. 
    
    Thanks
    Bob
    

    Bob, are you skiing on a ski thats' right for you?  I think you
    should be on a 68 inch ski (or thereabouts). Riding a flat ski will
    produce lots of spray when you are skiing slow.  Try to angle
    your ski more across the wakes if you can.  You're not that heavy
    that you can't ski at slower speeds without sinking, just don't flatten
    out or stand up straight.
    
    I read a story written by Bob LaPointe in waterski mag. that
    he skis @ 19 MPH sometimes when he needs to work on his timing 
    and rhythm.(now thats slow!)...
           
    I'm sure the other guys can help you out here.
    
    Jeanne
    

    Re: .4, .5
    
    I read from the Ski Limited Catalogue the following reccomendatation
    on ski lengths (this varies slightly by manufacture, but most are
    common to these ratings).
    
    Weight (lbs)  80-100 100-120 120-140 140-160 160-180 180-200 200+
    Ski Length       64      64      66      68      70       72   72
    (inches)

    Note that most ski's in this catalogue are only available in 67"
    until you start buying the better skis... I weigh in the 180-200
    range, and saw few skis in this mag that were available in 72",
    most were 67-69", and these were in the $300 price range!
    
    

    
    re: .6
    
    Be careful in using this chart since I see no mention of the speed
    that the skier is skiing at.  There is easily a difference of 2"
    in the length of the ski for differnces in speed from 30 to 36 mph.
    
    for example:  The "RIGHT" ski for a 160lb person who normally skis
                  at 30 mph may be 67" but for the same weight at 36mph
                  the length may be 65".
    
    The chart is a good place to start, but may need to be tweeked.
    As you noted these differ slightly from each manufacture and is
    really a matter of perference and skiing style.  The best thing
    to do is try different lengths if it is possible.
    
    Good luck,
    Mike Smith
    

    Re .5
    
    Jeanne,
    
    	I am using a 170 cm (I think thats 67").  This wasn't a guess,
    I've skied on other lengths and found this to be comfortable.  Besides
    I looked at an EP chart and for the speed and size, the 170 cm was
    right.  
    	I think you're right as far as getting caught "flat" at times
    because I don't really get the water in the face until I get tired
    or lazy.  I find that my arms "weaken" quicker than they should
    and my shoulders are even with my hips.  Sounds like too much speed.
    Any suggestions or conclusions.
    
    Bob
    
    PS  BTW its an EP Comp 1, new ski from an old O'Brien.  The System
    90 bindings are Great!

    Bob,
    
    When I took the lessons in Florida, the pro there told me to
    keep my arms extended and down by my hips, and to use the baseball
    grip.  I had never taken a lesson before and I'm still trying
    to get rid of bad habits.  Like in every sport, if you can learn
    the correct way initially, it'll save you a lot of grief later.
    
    Somedays I'll go out there though, and nothing works, yesterday
    for instance, it was too choppy, the air was too thick, and I
    couldn't find my edges. :>)
    
    Jeanne
    
    

    RE: .1
    
    Jeanne,
    
    In your note, you mentioned a fear of skipping out on your slalom
    ski.  You remedied your problem by adding a cheater (wing) to the
    fin of your ski.  You also noted that you straightened out your
    legs in order to push the ski through the turn.  In .3 Rob advised
    you to NEVER, NEVER straighten out your legs!  This is true, and
    by keeping your legs bent and pushing your knees (and ankles) towards
    the apex of your turn you are slowing the ski down and driving
    the inside edge deep into the water.  If you get a chance to watch
    the pros on ESPN note how deep they get the ski into the water at
    the apex of the turn.  Only a small part of the tip can be seen.
    This is what will prevent the ski from skipping.
    
    My advice to you, and I think others will agree, is that problems
    in slalom, because it is such a technique oriented facet of w-skiing,
    should be worked on first by altering technique.  After you have
    mastered technique you can start making alterations to your
    equipment, such as adding a cheater.  Try taking your cheater off
    and working on your technique.  As long as you rely on the cheater,
    you aren't going to develope the necessary skills for slalom, and
    you are only cheating yourself (of good technique).
    
    Give it a shot, it may be tough to get used to, but in the end you'll
    be better for it!  You may even find that you'll be able to ski
    longer.  For people that aren't used to them (cheaters), their legs
    (and other parts of the body) tend to tire quicker.  The experts also
    advise the same thing: they say a cheater shouldn't be added until you
    are able to ski cleanly into short-line!
    
    I hope this helps Jeanne, and remember:  Cheating can bring better
    grades, but it also can get you FLUNKED OUT!!
    
    Happy waves,
    -ric.
                              

    I saw some mention of a "heel cup" for non-booted rear-footers and
    am wondering this now: Does the heel cup require the rear foot to
    be locked-in before getting out of the water? Or, can one simply
    "step in" after getting up with one? I realize this may be a little
    ametuer-ish for some of you that use full-wraps, but I don't really
    have the time or possibly the patience to learn to get up with both
    feet in the ski, but have found that most of my slalom errors occur
    when I am skiing aggressively and my rear foot just won't stay in
    the ski; it really ruins my concentration!
    
    Thanks.
    Mike
    
    BTW--Great topic and related discussion!
    

    
    Mike,
    
    The "heel cups" that I have seen are ones that you CAN put your
    foot into after you have gotten up with your back foot out.
    The people I have seen with them seem to think it is a good compromise
    between a full wrap and just a toe.  I have only seen them on skis
    never have seen them in a store,  probably worth the price to try
    it out.
       Personally I do not understand the problem of getting
    up with both feet in the ski.  That is how I learned to slalom ski
    from day one and have never had a problem.   I have a rear toe,
    and I have tried to get up with my back foot out and I can't do it.
    
    I guess we all have our own personal styles.
    
    Mike Smith
                                                          

    Now that I'm back from vacation and obviously a pro skier :-) I
    can attempt to shed some light on the subject of slalom skiing
    (although I must admit I did more jumping and footin' last week
    than slalom).
    
    All of the advice here is correct and just like any sport practicing
    the basics is essential.  Good, smooth technique is the primary
    objective in slalom.  I especially like the suggestion to remove
    the cheater and try it like the folks on EPSN.  That's exactly what
    you should do.  Watch the tapes, over and over, and see what they
    do, then ask yourself why they do it and what the results are (and
    I don't mean a complete pass, just how good was the turn based on
    what they did to achieve it).  If you can maintain good posture
    with both hands on the rope then fine.  My cousin used to ski all
    6 buoys at 36mph on a full 75' line with both hands on the rope!
    I couldn't believe it but he could run all 6 consistently that way.
    It wasn't pretty, but it worked.  Now he's developing the "remove
    one hand" technique and is having trouble making all 6 at 36mph.
    The 3 guys in our ski group seem to have a good handle on making
    6 at 15-off at 32mph, but 34mph is shakey and 36mph is elusive for
    all of us right now.  Gotta work on that rythym.
    
    Another suggestion I have is to keep your eyes off the water.  Crazy
    as this sounds, people generally have a tendancy to look at the
    wake or the tip of their ski...WRONG WRONG WRONG!  I look at the
    point on the opposite shore that I want to go to, preferrably BEHIND
    the next buoy ( :-) ) and lock my eyes on it.  While in the turn,
    you turn your head to the spot on the other side you want to hit.
    The bottom line...have faith in your ability to cross the wake and
    let your brain consider controlling the factors involved in timing
    the turn.  There's alot of them, and you needn't worry about whether
    your knees will bend when you hit the wake.  My slalom runs improved
    dramtically when I stopped worrying about whether I would make it
    over the wake without falling.
    
    OK.  That's enough for now.  My compliments to all those who added
    their 2 cents here.  It's all great advice.  Now...to the water
    for implementation!
    
    					...Roger...
    
    P.S.  One quicky regarding .-1 about the rear heel cup...I haven't
    seen them on newer skis but a friend of mine has one of these on
    a Jobe Edge.  He can get out of the water without his foot in the
    boot and just steps in while under way and pulls the heel cup on.
    Nifty little device.  Don't know if Jobe still makes it.

    
    I'm a little confused because I do watch the Pros ski and I've
    seen them extend their legs when they're coming into the turn...
    at least thats' what is looks like to me.  When they come across
    the wake they're knees are bent and close together...more so than
    when they come around the buoy.  I'll watch my tapes again!  Also,
    Deena Mapple has a good article on slalom in this months WSKI mag.
    
    I do straighten out my legs, but not to the extent that they are
    locked.  
    
    Well, something else to work on, thanks for all the great advice.
                                                                     
    I'll think about taking my cheater off.  :>)  That did make a lot
    of sense though.  Thanks Ric...
    
    Jeanne
       

    RE: .14
    
    Jeanne,
    
    You will probably see some straightening (sp!) of the knees on the
    ESPN tapes, but not total.  And you must remember that these ARE
    the pros and they do things that may not be technically perfect
    when they are pushing the limit.  Look how graceful Andy Mapple
    can make a 32 off pass and then watch him run into 39.5 off.  It's
    a whole new ballgame at that length!
    
    Also, to prevent yourself from skipping out, you should emphasize
    your knee bend more during the preturn and then straighten them
    a bit at the apex.  If you accentuate the knee bend at this time,
    you will slow that ski down perfect and a little straightening out
    won't hurt too much.  And remember to keep your shoulders back during
    the turn if you're gonna work on this.  If you bring the ski into
    a good slow turn and you're forward it could result in what
    is called an out-the-front.  And those AIN'T fun!!
    
    Good luck!!
    
    -ric.

    Last nite's experience on the Fort Meadows Resevoir brings to mind
    a good topic of discussion here:  Skiing in the wind and rough water.
    What tips do you have for skiing in these conditions (besides avoiding
    them altogether ;-))!
    
    -ric.

    Hello wat is going on ere!
    
    Well ladies and gentlemen I have now been skiing on one ski(mono)
    for the last two seasons and can use either one or two footed deep
    water start.  However I prefer the beach start (if I can keep my
    balance.)
    
    I have a 13' shakespear with a 50HP Merc 1 season old.  I find it
    very hard work to try and get out with both feet in the bindings
    but it is possible.  However I prefer the one footed style because
    it's easier.
    
    If you ski behind plenty of horses then its no problem to get out
    on a mono ski either with both feet in or one foot out.  But for
    us with the lower sized engines please have pity because 
    
    1 it takes us longer to get out and I believe we need better technique
    because of the lack of pulling power
    
    2. It tires you out even before you started skiing.
    
    I would be very interested to hear what people have to say about
    the last topic - rough water skiing-  I seem to do mosty of my skiing
    on the sea which is frequently very choppy.
    
    Regards
    Roger R.
    
    PS. I forgot what the point of this discussion was Perhaps I had
    better go home and fix my trailer.

    Rough water?  Bend your knees even more, as far forward as they
    will go.  Remember though don't bend your waist as you bend your
    knees, bend the ankles and weight the toes.  Keep your back 
    straight.
    
    Rob

    
    I have been slalom skiing for about two full seasons now and I noticed
    this season with my new EP Comp 1 that I am having a difficult time
    doing a deep water start with both feet in.  With my old O'Brien
    I had no problem.  I did notice two things different right away.
    1. The EP has the front binding set about 3 inches closer to the
    front of the ski than the O'Brien.
    2. The EP has a wing on it.
    
    I have double wraps so a 1 foot start is out of the question.  The
    EP feels great once I'm up so I'm reluctant to drill new holes to
    move the binding back.  Any tips on deep water starts like what
    side is the rope SUPPOSED to be on 8^).  It sounds like I've probably
    been doing it wrong in the past and getting away with it, but not
    now.  Same boat and motor as last season and unfortunatly I'm the
    same weight also.  Thanks for any suggestions.
    
    Bob Bianco

re:    < Note 92.19 by HJUXB::BIANCO > -< 2 Foot start is gettin tougher! >-

>    1. The EP has the front binding set about 3 inches closer to the
>    front of the ski than the O'Brien.

    	Bob,
    
    		Is the binding on the EP closer to the tip or is
    the EP a smaller ski than the OB? Size plays a very important
    factor in slalom starts. If someone is having a difficult time
    coming up on one ski, I hand them the fat, old wooden ski and
    usually see success... Big difference when it comes to amount of
    ski surface pushing on the water.
    
    Rick

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Note 128.0                 Mono-Ski Technique Hints !!                   1 reply
HAMPS::JONES_S "Water Ski + Mirror Shades"           18 lines  24-AUG-1988 13:59
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    I guess I'm starting this off with hints and advice about mono-ski
    technique in mind... That is I'm after some so...
    
    Dear Marg,
    
        When mono skiing I find turns to the right smooth and easy, and
    left handed turns awkward and clumsy... I'm looking for that 'riding
    on rails' sensation on the left handers ! Anyone got any hints ideas...
    
    The other thing is in all the ski piccies, we see people almost
    horizontal with a beatiful crecent shaped wake behind them, the
    best I seem to manage is 30 degrees, followed by a resonably large
    (and painful to the ego) splash... 
    
    
    p.s. I'm a right foot first man (as if you needed telling) !
    
    Steve (Who wants to be in one of those photos too !!)

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Note 128.1                 Mono-Ski Technique Hints !!                    1 of 1
GIDDAY::SADLER "I'd rather be skiing...."            13 lines  24-AUG-1988 20:28
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    I just know I'm going to say something here and some one will have
    to correct me :-)
    
    The reason one side turns better than the other is because everyone
    has a bad side (dependant on which foot is forward) on which your
    balance isn't as good as the "good" side. The only way I've overcome
    this is practice and bruises so that you can over come the imbalance.
    
    As for throwing  up large amounts of water (that can swamp other
    boats in a single go) read other notes in this conference about
    turning and again practice. 
    
    .jim. whose_biggest_sprays_are_still_from_face_plants

    re: .20
    
    Rick,
    
    	Both skis are the same size, 170 cm, and both have similiar
    total ski area (widths are the same also).  Any advice on a two
    foot start would help.  I took the wing off the EP and will try
    it without tomorrow.  It becomes very frustrating and tiresome not
    getting out of the water right away (especially when I used to be
    able to do it).
    
    Bob
    

    Bob,
    I went from a EP Comp cr1 (1982 vintage) to an O'brien TRC, and
    had the  opposite problem, finding the O'B much more difficult to
    get up on. (This was confirmed by friends' who tried both skis)
    It just takes a lot of practice to overcome the 2-feet-in deep
    water start, but here are a couple of things to try:
    - if you are left foot forward, the rope should be on the right
    side of the ski tip. (conversely, R foot fwd, rope on L side of
    tip) as you are being pulled, try angling the ski tip toward the
    rope slightly such that the ski is being supported by the rope.
    you won't fall over this way and it gives you a little extra
    support. (they sell a handle called, I think, an Easy-Up, that
    you put the ski-tip through to get support but I doubt you need it)
    - try having your driver give you more throttle out of the hole.
    Just hold on tight and you'll be dragging the same amount of water,
    but for less time, thereby reducing fatigue and getting up quicker. 
    Just keep at it, and good luck.
    Doug

    Bob...
    
    In addition to Doug's suggestions, I've found that leaning back
    more than usual helps.  When I come up with both feet in the bindings
    I'm almost sitting on the back of the ski.  Additional throttle
    will definitely make a big difference too.  Practice, practice,
    practice...
    
    					...Roger...

    re:24
    
    Doug,
    
    	I've read that a right foot forward skier should have the rope
    on the left, but I find my ski tip bailing out to the right when
    coming up.  Consequently I put the rope on the right of the ski
    and actually point the tip to the left to compensate for this bailing
    out.  Sounds like I'm in trouble before I even start.  I tend to
    be in a tight tuck with a lot of weight forward on the ski to avoid
    plowing thru the water.  Could this also be part of the problem
    since a lot of weight forward tends to give you less control of
    the ski?  Maybe what Roger said in .25 makes a lot of sense since
    leaning back figures to give me more control of the ski initially.
    Once going, maybe then should I shift that weight to the front.
    
    	I seemed to forget everything I learned just in order to get
    up.  Thanks again for your suggestions and I'm going to try the
    rope on the left tomorrow.  And also to lean back.  Unfortunately
    I have plenty of weight to lean back with 8^).
    
    Bob
    

    re: .25
    
    Roger,
    
    	I took your advice last Friday and had less difficulty coming
    up with both feet in.  I concentrated on LEANING back not PULLING
    back!  What a difference!  Got up first pull each time and I kept
    the rope on the wrong side (right side for a right foot forward).
    I noticed that everyone else was a RFF skier and they also had the
    rope on the right side.  Oh Well, leaning back seemed to help me
    a lot. Thanks for the advice.
    	I did notice my first run out (I fell 8^) ) that without the
    wing the ski seems to slip right out the side.  But later in the
    day when I could barely hold onto the handle any longer, I realized
    what I've been doing wrong.  As I come out of the turn, I have a
    tendancy to let the boat pull me through.  It seems so basic and
    you read it everywhere to pull through the turn but Friday was the
    first time I ever did it.  It was like being born again!  Your body
    position is where it's supposed to be and you find yourself getting
    excellent angle out of the turn.
    
    Bob
    

    
       Is it me or has anyone noticed the water is getting chilly!
    
    Time for a full wet-suit or I'll never make it past September :>)
    
    Jeanne
    

    re .28	I think its the air thats getting chilly;  which is why
    I fall so much, to get WARM again:-^)

    	Reg
    
    

    RE: .27
    
    Great job, Bob!  I'm glad I could be of some help.  I'm still a
    little uneasy about the rope on the "outside" of the ski when you
    come up.  I guess if it works for you then stick with it.  I just
    know that I've always had the rope on the "back foot" side of the
    ski when taking off.  Keep the faith with the tiring out problem.
    You're finding out that there are muscles that you never used while
    your technique wasn't as good.  Now those muscles are identifying
    themselves and in a painful way.  To quote an old clich�, "No pain,
    no gain!"  Ain't it the truth?
    
    RE: .28 & .29
    
    C'mon guys...it's just colder than the 95+ degrees we had earlier
    in August.  You're just spoiled!  :-)  Besides, that's what the
    wetsuit was made for...prolonged skiing in adverse conditions.
    Ski on, dear friends!!!
    
    					...Roger...

>    RE: .28 & .29
>   
>    C'mon guys...it's just colder than the 95+ degrees we had earlier
>    in August.  You're just spoiled!  :-)  Besides, that's what the
>    wetsuit was made for...prolonged skiing in adverse conditions.
>    Ski on, dear friends!!!
    
	...Roger..., Jeanne, et. all -

	I was just thinking .... If Mike Boiko wears a full wetsuit when it's
	95 + degrees .... what does he wear when it's 55 degrees ???


	Chuck who_pulled_a_hamstring_this_past_weekend_doing_the_wrong_things
	      _on_skis

	

    Re: -1
    
       I bet he wears a wet-suit under his dry-suit (thats my plan)!
    
    Chuck, were you hamming it up when you pulled that hamstring? :>)
    
    Jeanne
    

    
    re: A Last few...
    
    	Mike B. wears a winter ski jacket, a down vest and stays in
    the boat when it's 55 outside. I have pictures Mike!
    
    	Chilly? Nah...... Although, even though I'll ski until
    the ice forms, I have to admit that the spirit just isn't
    the same as in the spring when we do beach starts with winter
    hats.
    
    	Instead of yeah!!!! there's no ice... Let's ski...!
    
    	It's more like ... Oh it's my turn again, huh?

    
    Rick

    re: .-1
    
    Gee, Rick, that sounds like a familiar tune!  Remember Webster Lake?
    
    Roger: "Gee Rick, it can't be my turn already, my feet are still blue!"
    
    Rick: (standing on the swim platform) "Sorry, dude, but I think
    it IS your turn, considering we're the only two people in the boat.
    Besides, those white caps aren't too bad once you catch the rhythm."
    
    Roger: "Thanks, I feel better now.  Where's the handle?"
    
    :-) :-) :-)
    
    BTW:  When's the next gumball?  I've got the full suit ready to
    go!
    
    					...Roger...

    
    Does anyone have any hints on making good spray? Is it the same
    technique as making a good slalom-buoy turn?
    
    Magnus
    
    ps RE:92.22 I really couldn't find this discussion anywhere else
       in this conference. ds
    

    A good spray comes from a good turn.  Sure, you can kick the tail
    deep and throw some water, but a nice smooth turn with a little
    tug at the apex of the turn with toss a nice wall of water.  Of
    course, timing is everything when you're trying to soak that canoe
    full of admiring fans!  :-)
    
    					...Roger...

    Having *finally* completed my dock... :-) I think it's high time to 
    learn how to dock-start. I've always deep-water started, and it seems
    like dock-starts would be alot less strenuous. Anybody got any tips,
    advice, etc.. (like how much slack to have) on slalom dock-starting
    that would make the learning process a little less painful?
                                         
    Thanks in advance
    
    Jon

    Jon,
      You should start with Beach starts and then progress to those
    FLYING dock starts. They look darn impressive when completed
    successfully, but damn foolish when not... What it takes is PRACTICE!
    As for how much slack, it depends on the skier, boat, driver, height
    of dock, etc, etc... TIMING is the most critical part.
    Again, work on the beach starts FIRST, then go jump off your dock!
    Good Luck,
    Doug.

    re: .38
    
    Hi Doug,
    
    I did *try* beach-starting once.... :-} I was visiting some friends
    and they just hopped along on one foot (the one without the ski,
    that is.. :-)  ) and zip - they were off. It sure looked easy until
    I tried it! If dock-starting is more difficult than beach starting,
    then I guess I've got more work cut out than I thought.
    
    Thanks for the advice
    
    Jon        

    
       Jon,
    
      You can dock start without *flying*.... the flying part
    comes later.  I think the flying dock starts involve standing
    up and leaping off the dock, where the ordinary kind of
    dock start is simply sitting on the dock with your ski
    extended in front of you and then stepping into
    it when the driver hits it.  This is *much* easier.
    
      As Doug mentioned, timing is very important whether 
    your standing or sitting.  I don't need/take any slack
    in the line so I can get away with bad timing.  Try it
    and good luck!
    
    Jeanne 

    
    	The big advantage of a beach start over a dock start(sitting
    or standing) is the fact that with the beach start you get the
    opportunity to hop if needed, whereas the start from the dock
    doesn't allow this luxury. So... if the timing is wrong when 
    doing the dock start, 1 of 2 things happen. 1) you remain on
    the dock or 2) you go for a swim.....
    
    	Best to get the timing down with a beach start first... 
    BTW: the driver is certainly involved in the timing issue
    also. The best way I've found for the driver is to have the boat
    perfectly straight in front of the skier then have the driver
    idle out and keep the boat idling in gear until the skier
    utters those words we all know and love... "hit it". Personally
    I go out on about 1.5 to 2 feet of slack, but many beach starters
    use no slack at all.
    
    Good luck.......
    
    Rick
    
    Jon... sounds like you need to attend a Gumball......!
                                                          

    Good advice from all these folks, but one addition...balance.  The
    problem with doing beach or dock (flying or not) starts is that you
    can't get away with leaning forward like you can with the deep water
    start.  Picture it, you're in the deep water, you say "hit it" and your
    shoulders get yanked forward.  But you fight it, drag through the water
    a little further and stand up.  On the beach or dock, the same happens
    to your shoulders, but the ski tip sinks and your face follows.  It's
    simple physics...the old Newton's law of equal and opposite reactions. 
    So the best advice I can give is to concentrate on keeping your
    shoulders and hips back during a beach/dock start.  You'll find
    yourself on top of the water more than beneath the surface!  :-)
    
    					...Roger...

    I've never see a start off a dock that wasn't done from the
    sitting position....but in any case as the laster commenter
    said....its shallow where you start and maybe stop so be very
    careful and good luck. Lloyd

    
    Disclaimer: Same as barefoot reply only for skiing...
    
    	What minor improvements should I look for in my slalom
    skiing? I assume "actually" making it thru the course is
    realistic, but what about 15 off? :-) Let's see.... pull the
    handle to my opposite hip after the turn...... I think the
    main thing will be getting rid of my bad habits....
    
    	Do I dare try the infamous tumble turn on a slalom? Ouch,
    my ankle hurts just thinking about it..... :-)
    
    	Of course being at Hazelwood's I should be able to jump
    at least 200 feet by Friday, right?
    
    Rick

Rick, if you have some time, check out the latest issue of Water Ski magazine.
They have a comparison of the "Big Four" (as the call them), Andy Mapple, Bob
LaPoint, Carl Roberge, and Mike Kjellander.  Ignoring the stuff about how they
all can "power their way through the course" (the infamous Carl Roberge
"scamble" method) you can get some good tips on what to do to improve your
slalom form.  Good photos too (no Kjellander though...he was injured when they
did the photo shoot), so you can work on body position as well as handle and
head movement.  Probably the most prominent thing I remember about your
technique is a slight fear of the wake when approaching on your "off" side.
That's almost a given for all of us, but you have to feel good about hitting
(actually, *slicing*) the wake from both sides so that you can maintain the edge
and speed to set up for the next buoy.  The article also talks about "angle"
which is another key aspect of the slaom technique.  Read it, drill it into your
brain, and do it on the water.  Simple, eh?  Enjoy!

...Roger...

    
    Time for a slalom skiing sanity check....
    
    My latest slalom problem results in sliding sideways into the wake
    after the turn as evidenced by the bruised ribs currently residing
    on the left half of my torso.
    
    I assume this happens because I'm not slowing the ski down enough
    in the preturn and when I come out of the turn with little or no
    control the ski kicks out before I reach the first wake and SLAM!
    I try to shift my weight forward, but it just doesn't "feel"
    right, yet. 
    
    	Any Ideas? Has anyone seen(or felt - Ouch) this problem
    before? Do I just have fear of sinking the tip of the ski in
    the turn which won't really happen?
    
    	Rog, I have plenty of time now to read the WSki articles as
    I can't even spot right now.... groan...
    
    Rick

    
    This is what happens when you let my brother drive!  :>)
    Shoulda had me at the wheel Rick!
    
    Hope you have a speedy recovery!
    
    Sounds like you may be leaning too far back coming through
    the wakes, and maybe not having your shoulders and upper body
    facing the direction you're heading.  I was told to be more
    agressive, but I prefer to have my technique down pat first.
    Body slamming is not for me!  :>)
    
    Get well soon!
    
    Jeanne
    
    
    

    Rick,
    
    I have definite felt what you describe.  I have on several
    occations fallen exactly at the wake and had the wake catch
    me right on the ribs.  Definite gets the old stale air out
    of the bottom of your lungs. :-)   I do not know if you wear
    your barefoot suit or a regular life vest, but I have been
    fortunate enough to come away with out significant harm and
    I think a  lot is do to the life vest absorbing a fair amount
    of the blow.
    
    Anyway how to not have it happen again.
    Well I have a couple ideas about what happens to me.  First of
    all I seem to remember it happening only on what should be considered
    my "good" side turn.  Ribs not as exposed on opposite turn.
    And this is generally a more agressive turn trying to catch up 
    from the poor "off side" turn.
    
    1).  Like you mentioned,  did not slow down the ski,  too much
    speed into the turn,  slack rope, when I try to resist the boat
    I get too far back and I basically end up laying down on the water 
    right as I get to the wake.  The extreme angle caused by basically
    laying down flat to the water can sometimes bring skeg of the ski
    close to the surface and clause ski to slide out.  One thing I
    find is if you get your shoulders back but do not keep your
    hips up you are going to lose it.
    
    2)   BUT I think it also happens when I am actually too far forward
    in the turn.  Here I get pulled over the front of the ski and am forced
    to bend at the waist, hands get pulled up away from waist (exposing ribs)
    weight is pulled forward putting you in a very poor postion as you race 
    back towards the wake, off balance you get pulled over and into the
    wake.
                                  
    I generally find the ski slides out if the skeg comes out.  If you
    are losing it at the wake you may not have enough weight back on the
    ski to keep the skeg in the water.
    
    Well at least this is what I seem to understand when reading about this
    stuff.  I certainly can't do any of it myself.  :-)
    
    Mike
    
    PS  If you had a boat that didn't have a wake this would not
    be a problem.  :-)     ( Like I should talk :-)  )
    
    
    

Rick, I can add some to what Mike said in .48.  It sounds like poor handle
position out of the turn may be causing your troubles.  Regardless of how you
hold the handle in the turn (one or two hands) it should always be at your waist
just after the turn.  Keeping the handle low will help you control slack in the
line.  This in turn helps you keep your shoulders back and hips forward.  If you
break at the waist, you loose lots of pulling power when the rope gets tight,
and the boat wins the tug-o-war.  That's when you over-compensate by leaning way
back, and typically end up sliding into the wake.

I can relate to the sideslide into the wake...it's not pleasant!  'Course, you
haven't come off a 5-1/2' ramp in the inverted position to experience what it
really feels like to hit the water at warp speed!  :-)  Some people call it
"freestyle jumping" ... but how come those guys always (well, almost always)
land on their skis?  You mean you have to ski away from a freestyle jump? :-)

...Roger...

    
    Jeanne,
    
    	I better stop skiing with any member of the DeCarolis family.
    I always get a new injury around you guys... :-)
    
    Mike and Rog,
    
    	Too far back? As in leaning too far away from the boat? Is there
    such a thing or do you guys mean too much weight on the rear of the
    ski? I think I may be guilty of not returning the handle to my opposite
    hip soon enough after the turn. I've noticed that sometimes it ends
    up out where it doesn't belong and I have to fight to get the handle
    back where it belongs.
    
    BTW: Mike, you hit the nail (or would that be the rib) on the head,
    I was wearing my BF suit! Guess it'll be an *approved* PFD from now
    on!

    
    	Oh yeah... I don't think I ever end up with any Doug.. errr
    I mean slack line. I reach for the pylon and have to get my free
    hand back on the handle QUICK because it will depart towards the
    boat driver if I don't move petty quick.... That indicates to me
    that little or no slack line exists....
    
    Rick

Slack or no slack, it still sounds to me like you're either not keeping your
shoulders square to the direction of travel out of the turn, or you're pulling
the handle to your chest rather than your waist (hip), which results in too much
lean and nothing to counter-act it...the result is a slow but inevitable
side-slam.

Best thing to do is try it close to the wake.  Don't get really wide and try to
develop the technique.  Free ski and try turning just after the second wake. 
Worry about running buoys later.

...Roger...

Hey guys,

Boy are you guys analyzing the he$$ out of this one.
Simplify: I bet you'll find a stiff front leg and
a bent waist at the root of this one, as Mr. smith
alluded to.  Get that body position right and lean 
all you want to.  Worry about all those little things
later.

Rob..who because of the sale of his home this spring
was unable to ski until June 2nd (can you believe it?),
but has finally nailed down those single trick 180's!

    
    
    	Bad side vs. Good side............
    
    	Let's see I ski left foot forward therefore my good cut through
    the wakes is from right to left (or starboard to port) and my good
    turn should be on the right? side?
    
    	The difference between my good side cut and my bad side cut is
    like night and day! 
    
    		Good side: Nice angle, good acceleration, solid cut..
    
    		Bad side: Lousy angle, poor acceleration, generally wimpy
    								cut..
    
    	Here's what I was leading up to... I re-read the past few replies and
    a suggestion to slow down and improve form was made. This sounds like
    a good suggestion, but when working on cuts through the wake how does
    a skier slow down and practice form when the whole idea is more
    acceleration?
    
    	Rick
    
    BTW: The temps are getting nippy lately... Rog, Reg, Doug.. are you
    guys ready for ice-in-the-hair skiing?

re <<< Note 92.54 by KAHALA::SUTER "We dun't need no stinkin' skis, (sometimes)" >>>
>                    -< The good, the bad and the offside! >-
    
>    	Here's what I was leading up to... I re-read the past few replies and
>    a suggestion to slow down and improve form was made. This sounds like
>    a good suggestion, but when working on cuts through the wake how does
>    a skier slow down and practice form when the whole idea is more
>    acceleration?

	I think it means a) have the boat driver slow down
			 b) don't ski as wide
			 c) maybe go back to a longer line length.

	This should all combine to give you more time to think about 
what you're doing, see/feel what results are coming from it and commit
that info to muscle memory.  Y'know about muscle memory, right ? 

    
>    BTW: The temps are getting nippy lately... Rog, Reg, Doug.. are you
>    guys ready for ice-in-the-hair skiing?

	Sure, in fact I was thinking about some before work skiing 
only last night  - -  while I was playing with my new toy (-:

	Reg

	Would some knowledgeable person please explain ski design ?
I don't mean the finer points, just a broad brush description of 
what the various "features" do.

	Rocker ?	Why or when is more better than less

	Stiffness ?	ditto

	Tail taper ?	ditto

	Tunnel shape, width, depth, sharpness of edge, etc.

	Ski length ?	why is shorter faster ?

	Finz and wingz

	Never mind all the fuzzy stuff the glossies promote, this 
would be a good start.

	Reg

I see "Z turn", "C turn", "TC turn" as a style of skiing.  As for my style...
I get up, I turn, I go to the other side, I turn, I fall.  What kind of
style is that?

Seriously, I have  "Z turn" style O'Brien and I don't know what it does for
me...


/Chris

RE: Rick & Reg ... yeah, I'm ready.  In fact I just unfolded the drysuit to be
sure all the seams are OK.  But heck, it's still in the 60's ... we won't be
needing that thing for *months* !!!  :-)

RE: Ski "characteristics" ... there were a couple of good articles in "Water
Ski" magazine back in the spring/early summer that explained what the various
characteristics of a ski are for.  Rather than give you my "amateur definitions"
I'll try to dig up the issues and post them here.

RE: "Z" vs. "C" vs. "TC" ... though I'm inclined to think it's more of a
marketing thing than a performance thing, the way I understand it is as follows:

	 "Z" turn: a *very tight* turn close to the buoy.  A "Z" turn skier
		   expends a lot of energy at the buoy, actually *kicking*
		   the tail of the ski around to complete the turn.

	 "C" turn: a casual turn (that's not where the "C" comes from, as far
		   as I know), beginning well in advance of the buoy, and
		   requiring a good amount of angle across the wake to set up
		   for.  This is, in my opinion, the type of turn that you're
		   supposed to learn.  The other types are for very short line
		   and high speeds (approaching 36 mph).

	"TC" turn: a "tight carving" turn (hence "TC"), similar to the "Z"
		   turn but not as sharp.  A little more angle across the
		   wakes than with the "Z" turn, thus allowing execution of
		   the tight turn very near the buoy.

RE: /Chris ... your style?  I'd have to classify that as "standard style" for
those of us trying to improve our skills!  :-)

...Roger...

    Question...
    
    	I need some info on a Connelly Signature Seriers Slalom SKi.
        It's Ceramic/Graphite.../Custom Competition.../ 
    	On the Bottom of the ski it says...Flex and Rocker Balanced???
    	"  "   "     "   "   "   "  "   ...Hand Tuned Acrylam Base?
    	What does all that mean to a intermediate skier?
    
    	Is the ski any good?  What price is fair? 
    
    	Please help!
    
    thanks,
    
    B.A.

    B.A.
    
    If it is a ceramic/graphite signature series ski it has to be
    the Concept. The Concept is/has been the best selling Connelly
    ski for years. It also holds more records on the local,state,regional
    and national level than any other ski on the market. It has 
    enjoyed tremendous sucess to say the least. To give you an example,
    at the last tournament I went to,out of 115 skiers,95 of them were
    on the Concept.
    
    This ski is so successful because it works well for open water
    free skiers through some pretty serious line lengths. I see people
    run the course at 30 mph with a concept,and I see people run the
    course at 35 off. It is a forgiving ski that turns very well.
    
    
    Custom competition means the boots are totally adjustable to the
    individual that is riding it. By using Gel-packs and adjusting the
    width on the front section of the boot,you can set the boots up to
    custom fit your foot. If this ski is used,you may need to purchase
    another set of gel packs which I believe costs about 20 bucks per
    boot. You only need to do this if you want the truely custom fit.
    The gel packs mold to the bottom of your feet and assist in arch
    support and comfort.
    
    Flex and  rocker balanced simply means that each and every Signature
    series ski is thouroughly checked and tested after it is produced.
    Mass production skis are just stuck in a box and shipped. The 
    repeatability or trueness varies greatly. A signature ski is measured
    in the fore body,mid section and tail area for the variances of the
    actual blueprint models in the areas of the flex patterns and the
    rocker. 
    
    Hand tuned acrylam base means the ski is hand tuned. Each Sig. ski
    after coming out of the mold is perfected by hand.The add scratches
    in a longitudinal manner to break up surface tension and to reduce
    imperfections in the finish. 
    
    Signature series Skis from Connelly with double custom contours
    retail at $685.00. You can not purchase a sig. from a mail order
    catalog. The skis you would want to compare them to from a mail order
    are not sigs,they are not hand tuned,flex checked and they do not
    posess the high wrap cusom fitting boots,they look almost the same
    but are not near as secure or comfortable as the custom boots.
    The difference in retail is over $100.
    
    If you ride over the center of the ski in the turns and stay back
    through the wakes,the Concept is an excellant ski,especially if you
    are skiing at or above 30 mph. It is so incredibly forgiving,it
    wins many skiers with improved performance.
    The one thing that I forgot to add was that in 1991 Connelly added
    an adjustable fin system to the Concept which makes the ski worth
    at least $35 more. It is a high-tech fin system that is very accurate
    and rugged,not a cheap add on like some manufacturers use.
    
    They normally sell at a pro shop for $460 plus w/dbl customs.
    So take it from there. If the boots are in good shape,and they fit
    your foot size without cramping,it would be a good buy for no more
    than $300.
    
    Concepts hold their value real well,they have proven to be the
    ultimate weapon for the majority of skiers out on the water today.
    
    hope that helps,
    
    MattK
    
    who has ridden Concepts since they were introduced back in 1989 and
    have helped several dozen skiers ranging in all abilities set their
    concept up for them seeing an immediate improvement the first time
    out on it.
    
    It's a winner,you'll love it!!

    sorry for the typo's and the hard to read sentances,I was in a hurry
    to get out of here.  :-)
    
    Matt.
    
    b.t.w. I now ride a Rocket which is basically a high bred model
    designed after the Concept and the old HP. It works great above 34 
    mph if you have a tendancy to ride foreward,like to take your time
    in the turns and crank it through the wakes. The Sig.Rocket retails
    for $695.00 and sells for about $515 or so at the pro shops.
    

    .60�    The one thing that I forgot to add was that in 1991 Connelly added
    .60�    an adjustable fin system to the Concept which makes the ski worth
    
    	It has the adjustable fin, with a very well built connection to the
    ski! Very impressed!
    
    	Thank you for the very insightful information!  I'm taking it out
    Saturday to drink some water!  :*)
    
    B.A.
    

    I received "Mike Suyderhoud's Advanced slalom clinic" video from Santa
    Claus for X-mas. It is an hour and a half long and I would HIGHLY
    recommend it to anyone skiing in the course from 32 mph/15 on up.
    
    Mike and Bob LaPoint use some very high tech film manipulating and
    in-depth coverage for each phase of skiing the course at each line
    length and speed from I think...28mph longline on up.
    
    It's great!!
    
    
    Matt

    If this is the same tape that I have, about 5 years old, (or is it a
    new one) yes it's pretty slick!  Bob makes everything look SO easy.
    Notice how he does his preturn in the air?  He shoots across the first
    wake, gets airborn over the second, and plants the ski *after* the
    edge change, then rounds the bouy.  Amazing to watch.  I'll have to dig
    out my copy and take another look on my new VCR that Santa brought; to
    see how it's supposed to be done.  :^)
    
    Doug

	Great conditions last night! No other boats and GLASS calm! Yeehaaa...

	I felt really strong on my ski last night, but managed to perform
a little trick that I don't think I have done before. I came out of the
turn real hard and fast and when I got to the wake the ski came straight
up, tip first and I, needless to say, followed it.

	Since I didn't go out the front, I know I wasn't getting pulled
over by the boat. I wonder, though, exactly what the heck I did do.....
My best guess is that I was too far back on the ski maybe because I had
pushed the tail around the turn. Any ideas?

thanks,

Rick

    Me thinks that you overturned the ski (...came out of the turn real
    hard and fast...) and scared the beejeezis out of you self which then
    caused you to go "flat ski"  (...and when I got to the wake the ski
    came strait up,...) and "launch" over the wake.
    
    Been there, done that, nearly put a dent in my forehead from the tip of
    the ski. 8*O
    
    You wouldn't go out the front, 'cause you were leaning back.  You
    didn't fall over backward because, a) when the tail of the ski hits the
    wake you get knocked forward, or b) you compensated your balance and
    didn't realize it.
    
    Ain't applied physics fun!?
    
    Doug

	Gee, I really didn't think I was flat-skiied over the wake, but
who the hell knows, I'm sure the beejeezis factor weighted heavily here...

	Ah yes, the old overturning trick again! When will I learn....?
What's the fix for this one? Simply shoulders back, head up and perpendicular
to the water?

thanks,

Rick

Sounds to me like Doug's got the correct diagnosis.  I do *that*...go flat in
the wake.  I think this months waterski mag called it something like the 'double
lean.' ... pulling hard out of the turn, go flat across the wake, then back onto
that outside edge again... probably my biggest problem.

Since I don't get the air you did, I wonder if you not only pushed hard with
your back foot in the turn, but also might be skiing with more weight than
normal on that rear foot....a subconscious favoring of that 'healing' front foot?

dave 
(aqua therapy must be the same as water skiing.... right!!!) 

    Back to basics: Take the wing off your ski.
    
    The solution: Work on the *PRETURN* and the rest will follow.
    
    I can demonstrate better than I can write this; but if you decelerate
    smoothly during preturn, set your edge and carve your turn (providing
    your shoulders are back and you don't break at the waist and get
    slack-line,etc,etc) *then* you can pull-like-crazy while *remaining on
    edge* till you cross *both* wakes.  You now get to change edge, and do
    everything again - preturn, decelerate, turn, PULL, cross wakes...
    
    Now do it again with *bouys* for a real humbling experience.
    
    Enough of this...I wanna go SKIING!
    
    Doug _ Still havn't gotten wet yet in '96  :^(    :^(    :^(