Conference vicki::boats

    Last year I bought the VC200 with the 165 from Havencraft.  The
    design has worked out well, except for the canvas supports, which
    collapsed after two weeks - which Havencraft was unwilling to replace.
    
    There was no DEC employee discount last year.
    
    The engine has not worked out well at all, and Havencraft is not
    staffed to provide quick assistance - I get the impression that
    selling new boats is their priority.
    
    My overall impression has been that the boat has good features for
    the money, but I would never deal with Havencraft again.
    

>>    at were  MAXUM Two Thusand SC a 20 footer with 230 HP MerCruiser.
>>  Very pretty and the seat (yeh that is important to me) were very
>>  comfortable.  The cuddy was very low.  This is a brand new
>>  offering bu U.S. Marine a division of Brunswick.


U.S. Marine also owns Bayliner, which whether deserved or not has a
poor reputation. The Maxum seems to be an attempt by U.S. Marine to
come up with a new line and a new reputation, without any real upgrade
in the equipment. I looked at them at a show a while back and the only
noticeable difference between a Maxum and a Bayliner is the color (and
the price). Even the hull is the exact same design.

Maxum seems to be just as expensive as any other entry level boat. For
the money I think I'd go with one that's been around a while longer,
and whose parent company has a better track record in regards to resale
value.

Rick W.

    re .1
    
    Bill
    Is the 165 powerful enough for the boat.  Do you carry more 
    than one passenger.  I find that my 170 on a 17' is slow
    in planning when I have 3 others aboard.  Have you used the 
    boat in the ocean?  How does it ride when the seas are running
    one to three feet or higher??
    
    -Bill

    
    	I dropped in at Havencraft about a month ago, I needed an oil
    filtre, the  "Standard"  54111 that most Mercuries seem to use.
    
    	"Hi, Where's the parts counter ?"  {pleasant tone}
    
    	"We don't sell parts"
    
    	"Not for the boats you sell ?"  {still pleasant tone}
    
    	"Yes, ONLY for the boats WE sell"
    
    	"I have a boat with the same engine as this one, I want an oil
    filtre for it."	{getting a little louder at this point.}
    
    	"Is it an '88 ?"
    
    	"No, its an '87, but it uses the same filtre."

    	"Oh, we'd have to look it up and cross reference it and the
    guy that does that isn't here now."
    
    	"Do I want the oil filtre ?  Do I want to buy a new boat someday ?
    Do I want to look at new boats here someday ?"  {Now VERY LOUD,
    other potential customers wandering out of the showroom.}
    "FORGET IT !!!"
    
	Reg
    
    

Can anyone tell me what the $%&# is happening to this country of
ours and the marine industry in particular? This is a pretty sad
statement when not one of us can put in an unconditional recommen-
dation of a dealer. The best recommendation anyone has been able
to give so far was "No real complaints about them". Most of them
have been outright warnings to stay away from a particular dealer.

As long as such imcompetance and dishonesty is tolerated it will
continue to flourish. It seems to be especially common in some of
the newer dealerships that should be still trying to establish a
good reputation. I certainly hope that DEC's customers don't have
the same lack of confidence in us or we will all be looking for
new jobs soon.

Are there still any noters from across the pond in this conference?
Do you guys experience the same problems over there or is this
strictly an American phenomenon?

Rick W.

    re .5	I seem to see it everywhere.  Everywhere I see it I
    say to myself, "Geeze, I must be in the wrong business.  If they
    can get away with THAT set of attitudes there must be so much business
    they're actively trying to turn customers off.  *_I_* could start
    up a business that puts aftersales care right at the top of the
    priorities, to preserve repeat business, of course.  *_I'd_* run
    a different ship."  
    
    	But would I ?  Its as much in my mind as their's, that the purpose
    of having/running a business is to make money.  Such notions as
    net present value, discounted rate of return, time value of money,
    return on investment (assets, equity, whatever...) all favor a fast
    buck NOW !  There IS NO long term view if the business fails in
    the short term, etc.  Sponsors, shareholders, crediters all want
    to see profit NOW, not parts going on the shelf for "Maybe next
    year, sometime, never" consumption.  I don't think it would "fly"
    to take a 20 or 30 year long range plan to a venture capitalist
    showing that You would be the trusted and reliable dealer for decades
    to come because you have always invested in parts, special service tools
    and expertise.  They want big, quick returns, 5 years maximum.

	I'm disgusted by a lot of this, but I acknowledge that, the
    pressures of short term business objectives being what they are,
    it makes more sense to hire another sales droid than to put $50-60K
    of parts on the shelf.  "(S)he will keep us afloat this year, we
    can get the parts in a coupla days IF/WHEN we need 'em.  Lets turn
    the parts area into more showroom, so we can SELL !"

    	R
    

    
    
    re: .5
    
    	The reason that the service industries are in the state
    they're in is that mediocre service is acceptable. Poor
    service is the norm so we are overjoyed when *fair* service
    is provided and never ever would consider finding perfect 
    service; it simply does not exist!
    
    Rick

    The 165 is enough, with four people and supplies it can go about
    40 - the hull is designed to plane very well.  The planing is at
    the expense of low speed control where the boat tends to weave a
    little, when just under way.  Havencraft will tell you that this
    is true of any outdrive !!  Now that I have a 1:1.98 ratio lower
    unit, the boat gets up to planing speed nicely - probably good enough
    for waterskiing.  Havencraft had delivered the boat with a
    1:1.67 lower unit - which self-destructed recently - that offered
    a lot less control at speeds just below or just above planing. 
    This control has been important in Boston Harbor, where the waves
    can kick up several feet, and you can stay dry.  I am pleased with
    the handling in 2-4 foot waves - I haven't had to take any over
    the bow.  As I said before, I am happy with the design - the cuddy
    cabin is very nice, and a Porta-Potti can be mounted there, with
    some privacy for those who care about that kind of thing !  The
    sliding hatch is great for getting up on deck when landing or
    anchoring.  The feature I like least is the 30 gallon gas tank,
    which yeilds about 55 nautical miles - another reason not to get
    a larger engine.
    
    My list of issues with Havencraft is long, but if you like the design,
    (and I also liked it after a lot of looking around) and are considering
    an Imperial, I would either: buy from someone else, or buy my own
    trailer (here are some more nasty stories), and have a reputable
    mechanic reassemble the outdrive and test it before you use the
    boat. (There are tricky warranty issues here - tradition has it
    that only the selling dealer will handle your concern without money
    upfront.)  
    
    
    As a separate subject, I agree with the other notes about how
    " Service Stinks Everywhere " .   I also agree that there must be
    a market out there: the six authorized Mercury dealers around Boston
    Harbor were all booked up two to three weeks.  I am happy with the
    service provided at Norwood Marine - they analyzed and repaired
    the outdrive in several days, since they stock outdrives.  They
    communicated all the charges in advance, spelled out the alternatives,
    and delivered on-time.  The man who fixed the outdrive demonstrated
    the repairs and showed some concern for my situation with regard
    to warranty.  You can bet it wasn't real cheap !!  
    

	I looked at HAVENCRAFT before buying my current boat.  The B*llSH*t
they slung was unbelievable.  They said their price onthe 19' was 14,7--.00
FIRM.  Until I produced a list of local Marina's, boat manufactures, feature
list cross reference, WITH PRICES that my wife and I composed while looking
for a new toy!  His price instantly cam down by removing the shipping &
dealer prep charges that they just finished saying were mandtory for warrenty
reasons (right).  I liked the boat's insides but did not like the hull
construction and details of the company's relationship to Bayliner/Searay
engineering groups, as well as their lack of re-sale track record.

	Their service dept seemed to be "vaporware" as everyone that was an
adult was selling, and the "kids" were setting up the boats sold.  My advice
is to avoid HAVENCRAFT.

	I looked at Starcraft, Checkmate, Cobalt, 4Winns, Power Play, Larson,
Sunbird, Baja (my former toy), and a few others.  I found that SUNBIRD
produced a boat with the same features (and some others I wanted: Sunlounger,
Surge brakes on trailer, 6-8 cylinder's, etc) that was much better built for
a beter advertized price (14.5K).  I ended up dealing with Wilderness Marina
in Milford NH on 101A.  I do all my own service because of the "lack of
copetence" within the Marina industry as well as the quality of service.

Good luck on you search!

				Garry

    re .9
    Gary what pricing info do you have on this list of
    yours? What boats? Are you willing to share the list?
    
    I plan to go into the BOAT show in Boston later this month.
    Maybe I can add to any pricing info you have.
    
    RE. MAXUM boats -- since they are made by Bayliner I have
    no interested in them.  I've heard of their reputation.
    
    
    -Bill                                                  
    
    

Bill,

	Let me reconstruct what we found from memory


RATING: 10 being BEST, 1 being worst, 0 being DONT EVEN THINK OF GOING THERE

					"creature"   		Dealer	overall
BOAT	(Dealer)	length	Power	comforts   Price 	rating	rating
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sunbird	(Wilderness)	20'	OMC	  8	  18K		7	 8
Larson	(Marina USA)	19'	MERC	  6	  17K		2	 7	
Starcraft (Baret)	19'	MERC	  8	  19K		5	 7
Baja	(Brown's)	20'	MERC	  5	  16K		8	 7
Checkmate (Stonham)	19'	MERC	  9	  23K		4	 5
Baja	(Owen)		18'	OMC/MERC  5	  21K		0	 2
Cobalt	(Thurston's)	20'	VOLVO	 10	  27K		1	 2


There were others but this is the one's I remember.  Again this list is based
on our specs of the boat hull design, construction, V8 powering, interior
ease-of-use and standard items included (excess padding, tinting, full analog
guages), sound system, Sunlounger option available, bow seating layout,
canopy design and storage, trailer, Our percieption of how satisfied the
customer's appear to be (after hanging around the service area), etc.

These rating will vary as the survey was made to our tastes and requirements.
Basically we found out (as I have said al along):

	1) make your best deal
	2) put very little $$ down
	3) get EVERYTHING in writing
	4) check the boat out before signing over the $$$$
	5) Have the dealer specify the HOW's and WHEN's of future warantee work
	6) After the warantee expires, DO THE WORK/MAINT/UPKEEP YOURSELF

Hope it helps.

			Garry

    Once I made the mistake of going to Havencraft to price inflatable
    dinghys. As soon as they found out I wasn't interested in "big ticket"
    power boats, the salespeople made themselves rather scarce in a
    hurry. The lesson? Only go to a dealer who specializes in what you
    are looking for. (Even then, expect inattentiveness and, in some
    cases, downright condescension).  
    

re .12

    Have you  tried Bliss Marine for inflatibles? I've seen a few
    of  them  set  up  in the Woburn shop.  If they have what you
    want the prices are usually very good.  The sales people seem
    ok; once you corale one they stay with you till you have what
    you want.

    Thanks for the tip. I've been to Bliss many times, but the thought
    of checking them out for inflatables never occurred to me. Dedham
    store is closer so I'll call them first.

    An update on Heavencraft. 
    
    They have different people now. I have no idea if they are better, but
    they aren't same as from the times when all the complaints were lodged.
    They were attentive to me, but then I expressed interest in a $15,000
    boat too. 
    
    They now carry STINGRAY boats. Matter of fact offering 15 years
    with 0% down (at 14�%) on STINGRAYs in stock.
    
    They no longer sell Imperial (one left) boats. Says Imperial dealership
    has gone to the Cape.
    
    They sell Quantum fishing boats (whatever they are, I didn't look
    at them) now.
    
    john
                                                            

    WELL I JOINED THE CLUB
    
    I JUST BOUGHT A BOAT FROM HAVENCRAFT ITS A 21FT CUDDY WITH THE NEW
    FORCE L OUTDRIVE.
    AND I HAVE TO SAY THAT I AM VERY HAPPY WITH HAVENCRAFT
    I DID SHOP AROUND, BUT THEY DID GIVE ME A GOOD DEAL WITH NO FOOLING
    AROUND, THEY WERE RIGHT TO THE POINT AND STILL GAVE A LITTLE
    STEVE RUSSO IS THE GUY TO SEE HE WILL TALK TO YOU EVEN IF YOUR NOT
    BUYING HE IS A VERY GOOD PERSON TO TALK WITH AND NO HIGH PRESURE
    THE OTHER SALESMAN ART I THINK HE WILL ONLY TALK IF YOUR BUYING.
    
    THEN I NEEDED SERVICE???????
    WELL THEY BLEW ME AWAY TOM IS THE SERVICE MANAGER THERE WHO IS
    EXCELLENT I CALL IN FOR SOME SERVICE HE HAD ME IN THERE IN TWO DAYS
    TO FIX MY PROBLEM AND HAD ME OUT IN A HALF HOUR.
    THEN I HAD ANOTHER PROBLEM THAT I FELT WAS THERE DOING AND SHOULD
    HAVE BEEN DONE RIGHT THE FRIST TIME, I CALLED AND TOLD THEM SO.
    WELL TOM WAS AT MY HOUSE THE NEXT MORNING AT 8:30AM A 25MI DRIVE
    TO PICK UP THE BOAT HE FIXED THE PROBLEM AND RETURN THE BOAT TO
    MY HOUSE IN 3 DAYS  THAT WHAT I CALL SERVICE
                       
    BY THE WAY THE BOAT IS A MAXUM AND I LOVE IT 
    IT HAS 120HP L DRIVE THIS THE NEW OUTBOARD THAT MOUNTS LIKE AN I/O
    IT DOES 40MPH AND RUNS THE WAKE IN BOSTON HABOR VERY WELL
    IF ANYONE NEEDS MORE INFO LET ME KNOW
    
                           JOE