Conference vicki::boats

    Yo, bro, 
    
    What kinda motor are we talkin here?
    
    Mike

    re .1	Well, it 'appens to be a 140 HP Merc., '86.  The problem
    probably goes back to the failure of its water pump last spring,
    between cyls 2 & 3 there ain't a whole helluva lot of cooling, so
    pop goes the gasket.  I ranted on about water pumps in the old
    conference, just don't see why they can't put a pump in that can
    move sand, silt, or just plain AIR for literally YEARS non stop.
    Anyways, where's the dry stitchin' shop ?, or are there other
    altrenatives, like plastic steel ? :-^)

    	Reg
    

    
    	So, its only 5 days later - not bad.
    
    	I received mail from Mike Breault saying to call him, we talked
    about it and he gave me the number of Frank Casey, that was on thursday.

    	I called Frank thursday afternoon, answering machine, bleah !,
    don't s'pose he'll call me back for a month, given the time of year,
    my yearning for a working boat, etc.  In fact Frank DID call me
    back an hour or so later, we discussed it, he described it as a
    "fire crack", said he could probably do it, wouldn't commit to even
    a guess at a probable price until he could see it, asked if/when
    I'd like to bring it down.  "Well, how soon could you fit me in ?"
    "Would tomorrow morning, say 8:30, be OK ?"  {would it ever ?, lessee
    sick day, hookey day, V day, dunno I'll worry about that later}.
    I got there a little after 8:00;  this is Frank's house, it doesn't
    impress one as a likely cellar machine shop, old cars and vans laying
    around in a neglected yard, house looks a bit run down, etc.  I
    swung around and went back into town to grab a coffee, {I dunno
    about this, what if he wrecks the damned block ?, well, the block's
    no damned use as it is, what alternatives do I have, etc.}.  I got
    back to Frank's right on 8:30, he was just opening up his garage
    (which had an old Dodge Dart in it, geez what IS this place ?  no
    wonder I got an early appointment, he probably gets two jobs a year)
    Oh well, I've driven out here, might as well get the estimate, but
    if its high I'll thank him and bite the big one for a new block,
    a new block ?;  sure, like I can afford it :-^)
    
    	Anyway, Frank didn't impress me very positively at first sight,
    gave lots of hand signals as I backed up his driveway, OK I know
    the length and width of this rig, I ain't gonna cream his door or
    go in too far.  "Watch yer foot, I'll watch the boat"  (I HAD to).
    "You watch my foot."  (what a start ?).  OK, so we got down to formal
    niceties, then we(he) started to look it over.  Magna flux showed
    a crack deeper than I had thought (of course), but Frank was confident
    that he could do it with what I think he described as a small bridge
    and some "fill".  So, how does that translate ?,  $85.  "I'd be very
    happy with $85, if it works."   "Oh, it'll work."  Somewhere around 
    this point my confidence started to rise. 

    
	The process is basically one of drilling a line of holes at
    regularly spaced intervals across the crack, sort of like this
    
	O O O O O O
        
    a guide block with locating pins is used to maintain exact spacing.
    They are then chisled together, forming this sort of pattern
    
    	O=O=O=O=O=O

    and a preformed strip of (I assume) soft iron is tapped into place.
    From here on the exact sequence probably varies from job to job,
    however lots of holes get drilled around and along this insert,
    at an angle of ~15 - 20 degrees from vertical to the surface.  They
    are tapped and a threaded rod is put in and chisled off almost flush
    with the surface.  When an area has been filled and built up in
    this way it is punched down, which Frank says both work hardens
    and flows the metal into itself (kinda like a cold welding, I guess).
    He magna fluxed it again to check how far down the crack had gone,
    then he drilled in from each cylinder wall to stop the crack, tapped
    and filled it with threaded rod as above, etc.  Then the big flat
    files came out to bring it down level, he blued it, decided there
    was still a slight low spot, put in two more plugs, punched down,
    filed, blued, etc.  The cylinder wall plugs were ground off with
    about a 3 inch drum sander, they were above where the pistons come.
    We talked ALL THE TIME, he's an interesting guy, doesn't harbor
    any trade secrets, said he would have come to my house to do it
    if I had a compressor,  "I gotta compressor, Ya didn't ask.  So,
    dry stitchers, though not doctors, still make house calls?, wow"

    	I was out of there by 9:45, could have been 9:30 but he fussed
    with blueing the rest of the top of my block so it would all go
    back together nicely.  $85 for 75 minutes ?, its fair and I'm impressed !
    
    	OK, while I have it apart I'm going to put a new exhaust shutter
    in, drove to Roy's, no luck;  drove to Gauche's and got down their
    ramp before I realized I had the boat on the back.  I can't turn
    around and I can't back up onto Rte #20, SHIT !  Well, maybe I *AM*
    good at backing this rig, this will be THE test as long as no one
    tries to help me with signals I'll be OK, one zig and two zags later
    I was lined up ready to leave, so I went to the parts counter.  "That
    was neat",  "Oh yeah, I like to line it up so no one blocks me in".
    They had the shutter, but no end grommets, off to USA Marine (ex Doggie 
    Douggie's).

	Back at the machine shop things weren't so great, they'd planed the 
    head, only to find voids in the weld that Leo Cavalier's (Acton) had 
    put in.  They recommended NOT TO use the head, but agreed that even 
    if I got the weld ground out and re done they couldn't plane it again, 
    so I could junk the head or take a chance.  Coupla or so hundred for a 
    new head due to a screwed up welding job ?,  OK maybe if/when this one 
    lets go, and I'll make damned sure to stop and paddle in at the first 
    *_HINT_* of a head gasket failure.  Tips from Auto Machine, Maynard, 
    to oil/grease the gasket so it can slide around as the head is torqued 
    down, to be sure and torque it down in a pattern that starts in the 
    middle and squeeggees out to the ends, to fill the voids with epoxy, 
    were followed.  BTW, this is a GM block, 181 cu in., it has the 
    stamped steel rockers, three out of eight had paint or some kind of 
    laquer blocking the oil holes at the push rod ends, Mercury loses 
    a whole bunch of Q.C. points here, (I hold THEM responsible for letting GM 
    get away with this).  Just another little job to do.

    By ~17:00 friday it was running in the test tank, sounded OK;  
    geeze, what a dirty boat this is, greasy hand prints everywhere,
    clean up for an early supper and see about "miscellaneous" in the
    morning, might even pick the tools off the driveway.  Saturday morning I
    remembered that the alternator had a frayed wire, it had been stretched
    at installation by someone that was too concerned with keeping the
    wiring neat (read "tight").  Once I fixed that I was ready to take it
    into water to see if there was power enough to plane. 

	On Ft Meadow Pond, (with a paddle in the boat), I took it up to ~1500 
    in neutral to warm it up.  This was the first time I'd run it with the 
    engine cover on, it sounded NICE, and quiet.  Into gear, trolled around 
    a bit, dare I open it up ?   OK, here goes nuthin'   Popped right up on 
    a plane, hit 3500, arghh cut back to 3000 (falls off of plane at ~2700) 
    and cruised around a bit.  Seemed OK, but I didn't want to push it so 
    after EXACTLY 5 minutes I cut to idle and trolled for EXACTLY another 5, 
    then into neutral, popped the cover off, no leaks or weird noises, in 
    fact it sounded GOOD !   I did similar 5 minute runs and rests at 
    3500 and at 4000, it passed and that was enough for the day, I took it 
    home and washed the upholstery.

	I went out again yesterday, opened it up completely, it spun out 
    to 4700, about 400 more than previously.  I attribute this to the planed 
    head (higher compression) and EXACT timing and dwell settings that I did 
    when I was trying to fool myself that the problem would go away if I 
    just gave it a tune up:-^)  I drained the oil while it was still
    hot (at the ramp), refilled when I got home.

	Summary:-    Dry stitching appears to work, though I don't 
    know how well it will hold up over the long term.  I discussed it with 
    Roy, he knows of 5 or 6 jobs that Frank has done, one of them did "let 
    go", though I don't know how long it lasted.  Roy agreed that for the 
    alternatives one faces its almost always worth a try.  I'll update 
    this topic if/when things change, for the time being I'm quite happy 
    though.

	For reference:-

	Frank Casey
	15 Phillips Drive
	Millbury, Mass
	(617) 865-6613

	From Rte #290:-

	South on 146 for about 3 miles,
	left on 122A to Millbury Centre,
	(N. Main St. becomes S. Main St. at lights at centre)
	continue straight, cross RR tracks and start counting from there
	5th right after RR tracks is Phillips
	blue house at end is #15.

	
		Reg
    
    	and thanks again to Mike Breault, who got me in touch with Frank.
    
    

    After digesting all info above, I still have to ask, is this an
    I/O or an outboard?
    
    
    Thanks!
    Mike
    
    PS: Keep drinking coffee! ( I hope that's what you took! )

    re .4	Well, the clue is hiding in .3   Its a 181 cu inch GM
    block..., i.e. its their big four stroke four banger.  Not the kind
    of thing most of us would hang off of a transom:-^)
    
    	Reg	{Might get a 23 pitch prop to slow this thing DOWN !}
    

    
>    	I received mail from Mike Breault saying to call him, we talked
>    about it and he gave me the number of Frank Casey, that was on thursday.



	Thanx for the promo REG!!  My brother-in-law used Frank's Dry 
	Stitching to repair a cracked manifild and not a word of a lie...
	he, (B-I-L), beats the snot out of his boat.  I'ts been a year now
	and the manifold is still fine.  The boat was also left out all
	winter and again no cracks.  Frank was also very possitive with
	us.  He assured us the fix would work permanantly.  $90.00 vs.
	$360 for a new manifold...not bad...!

	_mike

    
    re .6	Thanks again for the tip Mike, I learned some things
    that day.
    
    	4th July week will be THE REAL test.  We'll be trying to pop
    as many hefty guys out of the water at once as we can find ropes
    and wet suits for (only 20 miles from Canada, its still cool up
    there).  Of course the boat will be *_FULL_* of kids too, so it
    will be quite a load test.
    
    	Happy fourth to all !
    
    	Reg
    

    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 935.0                        cracked head                        No replies
MCIS2::MACKEY                                         9 lines   9-DEC-1991 13:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I just recieved bad news frmo Marine USA.  My boat is in for
    winterizing and they are now telling me that two exhaust
    manifolds are cracked and also the block.  Anybody know
    anything about insurance coverage on these items?? 
    Or Warranty??   Also they were telling me that they may be
    able to "stich" the head??  Has anyone heard of this proccess??
    it is not a weld..
    
    

re 

>    Moved by moderator...
    
================================================================================
Note 935.0                        cracked head                        No replies
MCIS2::MACKEY                                         9 lines   9-DEC-1991 13:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    I just recieved bad news frmo Marine USA.  My boat is in for
>    winterizing and they are now telling me that two exhaust
>    manifolds are cracked and also the block.  Anybody know
>    anything about insurance coverage on these items?? 
>    Or Warranty??   Also they were telling me that they may be
>    able to "stich" the head??  Has anyone heard of this proccess??
>    it is not a weld..
    
	Its unlikely to be covered by insurance if its due to
"negligence",  and this late in the year its a bit difficult to convince
them that the freeze came a little early   {water skiers' antics
notwithstanding}.  Did you just take it in to Marine USA for winterizing  ?,
if they've had it for more than a month I'd try to hit them with the
negligence accusation. 

	If you get stuck with it....  If  *_I_*  got stuck with this 
situation I'd get it down to Frank Casey for a look-see ASAP  -  I'd 
deal with Frank directly rather than go through Marine USA.  You may prefer 
to work through Marine USA, its a personal choice - I just wouldn't 
want to pay the middle man.  If Marine USA recommends Frank, see my 
endorsements in earlier replies, its still holding up  REAL WELL !

	Reg

As Reg said, it's doubtful that insurance would cover it since waiting
this long to winterize a raw water cooled I/O could be considered
negligence.  It's worth a try though, people get into "stupid" accidents
in their cars too and that's usually covered. 

One thing Colin didn't mention, is that this is practically a *brand new*
boat.  The subject header also says cracked head, unless Colin is referring 
to his own after his wife heard about this...  8^)   If the boat were several 
years old there's no question in my mind it'd be worth attempting repairs 
first, but I sure wouldn't feel good about having major structural repairs 
done to the engine block and manifolds of a new boat.  You'll be constantly 
checking the oil and the bilge for any signs of cooling system leaks.  You'll
also be hoping that the shop has managed to locate *every* crack and have them
repaired.  It's likely there could be internal cracks you won't know about 
til next season starts.  Any leaks discovered in June could put you out of 
commission for quite a while, possibly the rest of the season.

I've been accused of being good at spending other people's money before, but 
I think if it were my *new* boat, first I'd get a second opinion on which parts
are actually cracked.  Then I'd have any cracked parts replaced with new.  It 
may be an expensive lesson, but one of the reasons for buying a new boat is 
to spend a few seasons relatively trouble free.

Rick

    What type of engine do you have?
    Wayne

    The motor is a 4.3 lt Merc. (chevy).  Metropolitan insurance is
    going out today or tommorrow to inspect the damage.   I am
    keeping my fingers crossed.  As Rick mentioned the boat was
    purchased new last year so this is a major bummer...  I did
    drain the block myself but I guess not good enough.....
    hopefully that will help with the coverage...
    
    

    Did you also open the petcocks on the water cooled exhaust manifolds or
    just the engine block when you drained it?  You may even have a drain
    on your water pump that needs to be opened.
    Wayne

    Wayne,
    
    	I believe I opened all of them.  Atleast the ones mentioned 
    in the manual.  How much water is needed to crack the exhaust
    and head????

	Oooops !   4.3 litre V6 ?

	Maybe you'll be lucky, cancel that  "Oooops !"

	I've seen 3 or 4 such blocks that were  "drained dammit, I 
swear I drained the thing, COMPLETELY !"  (paraphrased),  but they 
were cracked anyway.

	If your insurance assessor sees all the drains open and knows
the reputation of this block - there is AT LEAST A CHANCE that they'll 
accept that you took 'reasonable' precautions.  I can't comment on the
head(s) and manifolds, other than that there might be data showing
that blocks crack because they can't be drained completely, whereas 
ANY draining always takes enough water from the heads (Top down 
approach (-: )

	Good luck !

	Reg

    
    	I've moved the winterization notes to replies of note 517. Please
    continue the discussion on winterization there...
    
    Thanks,
    
    Rick

    Back a few:
    Stitch welding- This is done by drilling holes on both sids of the
    crack and pressing pins into them. This process if done by a qualified
    person will hold very well. I have only seen it done on large engines
    where the crack is very accessable.
    
    Jerry
    

    
    Well I heard from the insurance adjuster and they are going to 
    foot the bill for a new motor.  They will not however cover the
    exhaust manifolds.  I guess they run about $900.  The marina
    is going to check and see if Frank can stich them if I want.
    Has anyone done this on the exhaust manifolds before??
    

    
    Sounds like 3x the price for the manifolds,,,,,  or is this
    
    something special....
    
    JIm.

    I don't think they are special,  Marine USA quoted me $450 per manifold
    

    
    
    THat's OEM prices- exact replacement manifoils by BARR or OSCO should
    run about $400-$450 for the pair- that's waht they ran for my OMC V/8
    and that included the risersand gaskets!
     Check with Ward Marine in Winthrop Mass- they should be able to quote
    you a price right over the phone. They are a distributor/dealer for
    BARR
    
    OSCO's phone # is somwhere in this conference- you can call their
    factory in Souderton, PA and get a price- they will direct ship.
    or you can get from a local distributor.
    
    Dick
    
    
    $900 is not robbery it's rape and pillage!
    
     BTW: OSCO and BARR make most of the manifolds for the I/O Mfr's
    
    Dick

    
    	Just curious... what was the insurance company's reason
    to cover the engine, but not the manifolds?
    
    Rick

RE:                   <<< Note 35.18 by MCIS2::MACKEY >>>
                        -< they will pay most of it.. >-
 
>   Well I heard from the insurance adjuster and they are going to 
>   foot the bill for a new motor.  They will not however cover the
>   exhaust manifolds.

	What's the logic behind this ?  Sounds like getting in a car
	accident with rear end dammage  ... and the insurance covers
	the right side, but not the left side ?

	Rick

    Perhaps the ins co considers the damage to the mainifolds as neglect.

    I can give you Osco's number and a price for the manifolds if you
    can wait until I get back in the office on Monday afternoon.
    Wayne

    The Osco price and or number would be helpfull.  I wonder what
    Marine USA would say if I mentioned that to them??   
    
    The reason the adjuster would not cover them is because he
    believes that I did not use "reasonable care" in draining 
    them.  removing the plugs was not good enough, I should have also
    removed all the hoses...
    

Makes no sense at all, how can draining the block be "reasonable care",
but draining the manifolds is negligence?  Either you were negligent in
not using anti-freeze, or not...  Don't think I'd squawk though, I think
you made out pretty well.  I'm surprised they're apparently not taking 
anything off for depreciation.

RE: Note 35.26
>> The Osco price and or number would be helpfull.  I wonder what
>> Marine USA would say if I mentioned that to them??   

To take a *wild guess*, the conversation would go something like:

"Those Ocso manifolds are a piece of cr@p, you should never use them,
and if you do you'll void the warranty on the new motor.  You should
only use our genuine OMC manifolds". (And under his breath) "At twice
the reasonable price".

Any bets?
Rick

    
     Then my conversation would go like this:
    
    OSCO makes tha manifolds for OMC- does that mean that using OMC
    manifolds would void the warranty onthe motor?
    
     WHY would using non OMC manifolds void the warranty when the have
    absolutley NOTHING to do with the internal mechanism of the motor?
    
     AS him to puit that in writing and then send it to OMC if he takes
    this stance-but I'll bet he doesn't.  
    
     I\ll bet he usually supplies BARR or OSCO manifolds for out-of
    warranty work.
    
     If he won't go this route, tell him you will supply the manifolds.
    
    I'll bet you don't have any trouble-especially if you tell him that
    tyhe insurance isn't paying for the manifolds and that they are coming
    out of your own p[ocket.
    
    BTW- if the maifolds are only cracked on the outside (no big pieces
    missing)- they can be welded. I had my OMC manifolds welded a few years
    ago-they iuse a special welding rod. They cracked on the outside and
    went all the way through one of the mounting flanges. Had them welded
    and then the flange surface reground for under $100. used them until
    they corroded apart.
     There is very little pressure on the m,anifold, so welding or brazing
    workd great- all you usually need is to hold the water in. The usually
    crack on the outside , so they can be prepared easily and inexpensively
    by welding or brazing. I know two freinds that had their maniflds
    welded- it works fine as long as you get all the cracks.
    
     The secret is to go to a good welding shop- not the local 
    "JOE's GAS SATION" who happens to have a welding rig. I went to a place
    in STOW- they were professional/Quick and inexpesive. A good welder
    will tell you wether it is reparable or not- they don't want the
    callbacks/complaints on a small job that goes bad.
    
    
    Dick
    
    

    Dick, I agree with you that I'ld take the weld-if-possible route on
    the manifolds as long as there could be a way to pressure check the
    internal water passages in the manifold to make sure that there are
    no internal, unseen cracks that could allow water to seep into the
    exhaust port/combustion chambers.  One does not want to fire up an
    engine with water in the combustion chamber unless one wishes to learn
    how expensive an engine rebuild can be!
       We have been saying that the only ways to go are either new
    manifolds or weld the old.  With all the storms that have hit the
    area lately and given that that engine is one of the most common 
    used, I would think that it would be possible to find a set of slightly
    used manifolds somewhere.  What do the marine insurance companies do
    with all the engines/boats that they agreed to cover after Hurricane
    Bob and that other nameless coastal storm that hit?  Is there a boat
    junkyard somewhere?  Maybe I should start one?
    Wayne

    Colin, your best bet is to call Osco (215-855-8268) for your engine.
    The only V-6's which I can find in Osco's catalog are smaller than
    your engine unless the 4.3 liter uses the same manifolds as what I
    listed in the other note.  The other engines must be based on a 3.8
    liter.
    Wayne

    Wayne,
    
    	Thanks for the info but the boats done and back in my yard.
    I went with used (actually new, 1 hour on them) manifolds..
    
    Colin
    

    Colin, that's great that you found something used.  Probably saved
    a bundle.  Did you locate a "boat junkyard" or just luck out that
    the marina had some?  I'm still curious why Osco didn't list your motor
    in it's catalog.  Maybe they are still proprietary parts that
    after-market supplier aren't allowed to sell (even though they probably
    are supplying the manufacturer).
    Wayne

    Well it didn't save me a bundle.  Still cost $700 for them. They
    came off a motor that was bad on delivery. The motor had one 
    hour on it when it developed a cam problem.  Merc replaced the
    entire motor and Marine USA kept the old one. So the manifolds
    are basically new.  I am still going to appeal this portion with the
    insurance company.  It never hurts to ask, maybe they will split the
    cost with me..    I saw the exact twin (color and all) in the shop
    when I picked up my boat.  Same problem but the block was in real
    bad shape.  They didn't think he was going to be as lucky with his
    insurance company as I was. (MET). Now lets see if they increase
    my premium.....
    
    By the way when I did mention going with Osco or the other name 
    mentioned they gave me the line everyone thought they would.
    "We can use them but they only last about 25% as long as the
    origional equipment"
    

    re.29
    >> Is there a boat junkyard somewhere?  Maybe I should start one?
    
    Isn't there one in Ricks back yard??
    
    (+:}

    
    On lasting as long:   Please take this very lightly........8)
    
    There may be more longevity in an original equip. manifold,
    wall-thickness may have something to do with it. I doubt
    that 25% is even close.
    
    I just replaced my dump elbows, these slow down the salt water
    thats coming out, they had clogged, and rotted enough to
    replace them.  I went with the Barr replcaements, i didn't
    bother to check Chrysler, i knew the price would be much
    higher.
    
    JIm

RE: Note 35.34  
>>    >> Is there a boat junkyard somewhere?  Maybe I should start one?

>>  Isn't there one in Ricks back yard??
    

OUCH!

There is no junk!  Some of it is in great shape, some is a diamond in
the rough, and some is cosmetically challenged.  But no junk!

Rick

    
    AS far as longrvity with Oiginal equipment manifolds vs OSCO:
    
     My original equipment OMC manifolds and Elbows disintegrate in exactly
    4 seasons (one elbow was after only three years!)
    
    Gone through three seasons on My OSCO replacements and I will say a
    couple of things:
    
    
    1. The OSCO Manifolds weigh more! The OSCO manifolds are a lot heavier
    than the OMC stuff I removed, The water passages are also bigger.
    
    2. After three years, the manifolds show little internal corrosion,
    whereas the OMC manifolds I had had to be rodded out every year. The
    exhaust elbows would be plugged almost solid at the end of a season.
    
    3. If I were a dealer and could convince you to buy "OEM" at twice the
    price, I would.
    
    4. Most yards I know will go to OSCO Or BARR for replacements on
    Inboards.
    
    5.OMC has the manifolds supplied by a third party- on some
    models/years it has been BARR or OSCO with the OMC logo cast in-
    if you look at the "two pass" design OMC manifolds and the BARR
    replacement- there is almost no difference in wall thickness or
    quality. IN fact the manifolds,gaskets,end covers , and elbows are all
    replaceable between BARR and OMC for that model. (225 and 245 HP I/O
    and inboards /307 CHevy)
    
    6. NEVER,EVER believe a dealer, especially in sitautions where there
    could be more money for him. I suspect you spent around $300 extra for
    used OMC manifolds. I would also suspect that they were a "freebie" for
    the dealer.
    
    
    Dick
    
    

    
    ah yes BenDover strikes again..
    
    JIm.

    Colin, I would certainly appeal.  If they are never going to cover your
    exhausts manifolds, why would they ever care what brand you used?  As
    far as Osco products are concerned, I ended up having to use the OSCO
    adjustable pin tranny mounts on my boat during my tranny swapping
    adventure.  These things are bullet proof.  They must be 15 to 20
    pounds each.  Osco is not the J.C.Whitney of the marine world, they
    build a product meant to last.  I wouldn't hesitate to use anything
    they make on my boat.
    Wayne

    Well Merry Christmas from Metropolitan Insurance.  I just recieved
    Voice mail from them and they are going to cover the exhaust manifolds
    100% less 10% depreciation......   I guess it never hurts to be nice
    to these people and ask for a review....  (glad I didn't yell at
    anyone).....
    
    Colin