| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 937.1 | Another primary? Maybe? | MAL009::MAGUIRE | | Fri Mar 07 1997 12:54 | 19 |
| Hi....
How are you doing......other than this ? I came by your house a year
or two ago for one of the K mushrooms.
But, about this, maybe you can't change HMO's, but you may be able to
change your primary physician. I don't think there is any time limit
on that. I just changed mine, but then, I was a patient of the old one
for a few years. She kind of had a similar attitude. Although she
didn't give me any grief, I did get one of those looks, and she was
non-committal.
I think you put a note in in response to my note about the Marino
Center. That is where I'm going now.
It gets harder and harder to get into a comfortable groove with the
medical care. Imagine what it will be like in 20 years.....egad!
Lorraine
|
| 937.2 | | THOLIN::TBAKER | The Spirit of Apathy | Fri Mar 07 1997 17:45 | 21 |
| > I'm thinking that this doctor better get with the times...or maybe he's
> sooooo tied in with the pharmacuticals...
Or maybe you should take the hint. Get another doctor.
> why do they take this kind of attitude? Is it because I'm healthy and
> if everyone became as healthy as me they wouldn't make any money??
Likely it's control.
> whats wrong with this picture??
Fear. On his part. He's a disease fighter. You're more into health.
> should I change doctors?? I'm in an hmo..just changed and can't change
> for another year....
I'd be surprised if you couldn't change if you have a strong
aversion to him or his attitudes.
Tom
|
| 937.3 | What's wrong w/ M.D.'s? | HOTLNE::YOUNG | | Sat Mar 08 1997 04:38 | 4 |
| I really don't know what's wrong w/ doctors. If it helps to better you
why should you stop? They are just afraid that one day everyone will
realize the benefits of Homeopathy and they won't be needed nearly as
much as they are now.
|
| 937.4 | | IJSAPL::ANDERSON | Spring has sprung! | Mon Mar 10 1997 10:58 | 37 |
| When you go to a doctor with a complaint on of the questions that he
will routinely ask is, "Are you taking any medication?"
The reason for this question is twofold.
Medication can cover up real symptoms and/or cause false ones.
Medication can interfere with any other medication he may prescribe for
you.
Both of these can cause problems for you. The scale may be minor all
the way up to fatal.
Now many patients consider prescription drugs as medication. They think
that OTC drugs and herbal remedies don't count, unfortunately they do.
Now your doctor does have a valid point. A lot of the herbal remedies
have not been properly tested, the dosage of the active ingredient is
not consistent and the rest of it may contain varying quantities of
other chemicals which can have an effect on you.
So when he asks what you are taking, and it is prescription drugs or
OTC drugs, he can look up what the side effects of these chemicals are
and treat you safely.
However if you are taking herbal remedies this information is not
available to him and he is now working in the dark, and it is your body
that he is working on.
I do not agree that he should have reacted as he did, but now you may
understand why he got worked up about it.
Before rushing around looking for a doctor who will supply you with the
medical treatment that you feel you want, first consider the point,
"Wouldn't it be better to get the treatment that you need?".
Jamie.
|
| 937.5 | | WRKSYS::MACKAY_E | | Mon Mar 10 1997 14:08 | 20 |
|
When I was growing up in Hong Kong, western medicine was as popular
as the chinese herbal cures. However the two were generally *not* used
in conjunction, they were either-or, when it came to herbs and western
prescriptions taken internally. For instance, when someone has a fever,
one either takes tylenol to lower the fever (this treats the symptoms
and discomfort) or take some herbs, get in bed with layers of blanket
to increase the body temperature to the point of sweating (this is
supposed to help our body fight the battle).
Maybe the HMO doctor is not familiar with herbal medicine and is
worried that there may be interactions between western prescriptions
and herbs which he does not know about. I think he overreacted,
however, with all the lawsuits going on these days, he might just
want to be cover his grounds.
Eva
|
| 937.6 | | ASDG::CALL | | Thu Mar 13 1997 16:06 | 26 |
| Jamie,
I already know about the fact that herbs have chemicals and can
interact with other drugs. That's why when he asked that question I
answered honestly. I tried to tell that doctor that I knew what I was
doing. I have studied herbs and alternitive remedies for about 4 years
now. I'm probably more of an expert at knowing what I'm taking than the
doctor is. I like knowing that I'm the one in control of my body - not
the doctor. I'm not going to stop what I'm doing just because my doctor
is negative.
I guess what has gotten me unset is the fact that he might stop someone
who doesn't know any better from doing something that would benefit
them in a significant way.
I have decided not to keep him as my primary doctor.
Anyway my tests came back good. The nurse that gave me my results kept
saying this is wonderful...really wonderful.
I left a message for the doctor to call me back. He hasn't called yet.
You have a point Eva - sometimes it can be an either or. However I do
believe in pro choice. I should be the one to make that choice.
This doctor was acting just like a control freak.
|
| 937.7 | | IJSAPL::ANDERSON | All that sheep tupping worked! | Fri Mar 14 1997 09:43 | 9 |
| Your interpretation of the doctor's intentions seem a tad biased.
However I like to know that any medication that I take has been
thoroughly tested, has all the known side effects listed and contains
a correctly measured dose.
I would therefore never take any herbal remedies.
Jamie.
|
| 937.8 | a good thing | ASDG::CALL | | Fri Mar 14 1997 15:49 | 36 |
| Jamie,
I prefer natural any time..I don't like taking man made drugs if there
is something natural.
Herbs have been used for thousands of years...how can you say all that
they have never been tested. I do admit that I look under the surface
and read from more than one source before I take something...
Anyways if you want to talk about being biased..I'm not sure if there
is another person who is more biased then you... (the other way)
I however don't want to get into a rat hole with you.
I am very very healthy...wonderfully so...
can you say that??
I work with preventative things.
you can provide your body with everything it needs and you can build
up your immune system and avoid disease.
Maybe we both study different books...
maybe you're right
maybe I'm right
does it matter???
maybe not
you have your choices
and I have mine......
And that's a goooood thing
|
| 937.9 | | IJSAPL::ANDERSON | All that sheep tupping worked! | Mon Mar 17 1997 08:07 | 32 |
| Personally I do not like taking any drugs, man made or "natural",
unfortunately I have to take drugs. However before the medical
profession can get me to take them they must tell me why and what they
are trying to achieve.
>I am very very healthy...wonderfully so...
>can you say that??
Let me see now. Somewhere in my childhood I got a viral infection. I
hardly noticed it at the time, but it left a time-bomb ticking and
about 40 years later the ticking began to time out. My heart enlarged
and grew weaker. It could no longer pump enough blood around my body.
They operated on me and removed my heart replacing it with a donor
organ.
Currently I am alive and healthy, provided I take my medication, which I
hate.
>you can provide your body with everything it needs and you can build
>up your immune system and avoid disease.
Your immune system is a double edged sword. Autoimmune diseases can be
quite nasty and even kill, so don't get your immune system to active.
BTW two of the drugs that I take suppress my immune system quite
markedly. But I do not seem to suffer more infectious diseases than
others. This would seem to disprove your idea of building up your
immune system helps you avoid infection.
Jamie.
|
| 937.10 | | ASDG::CALL | | Mon Mar 17 1997 14:15 | 11 |
| No I haven't had anything as trumatic as that happen.
Tell me..why are you involved in the holistic notesfile??
Do you know what holistic is?? Compared to the normal medical scene -
holistic methods are not in that train of thought...or are you just
here to thowing in quirks or to deter people from trying that? Just
seems that you are always on the arguementive side. I'm just trying to
understand why???
|
| 937.11 | | IJSAPL::ANDERSON | All that sheep tupping worked! | Mon Mar 17 1997 14:31 | 34 |
| >Do you know what holistic is??
Yes thank you.
>Tell me..why are you involved in the holistic notesfile??
Usually I point out that some of the more ludicrous things that get in
here are untrue.
>Compared to the normal medical scene - holistic methods are not in
>that train of thought...
True, most of the medical scene can pass a double blind test, can the
same be said about the holistic scene?
>or are you just here to thowing in quirks or to deter people from
>trying that?
Not deter. It is your body and you can put what ever junk that you like
into it as far as I'm concerned.
>Just seems that you are always on the arguementive side. I'm just
>trying to understand why???
It tends to make people think, a process that is not as often used as
it might be.
Why does it rattle your cage to hear a contrary opinion? Afraid your
belief in Holistic Medicine might be challenged and found wanting?
Oh BTW I'm not always negative, and have on occasions dug up data for
people who are proponents of Alternative Medicine.
Jamie.
|
| 937.12 | | WRKSYS::MACKAY_E | | Mon Mar 17 1997 15:25 | 14 |
|
Coming from a culture where food is medicine and medicine is food,
I see ourselves as a bunch of walking conical flasks, hearing that
someone never takes any herbs is amusing. How can one not encounter
garlic, parsley, ginger, soy, peppercorn, olive oil, barley, citrics,
carrots, cabbages, tea, apples, any whole food, which have "medicinal"
properties? Beats me! When a civilization can survive 4000 years,
with its general population in good health without the help of
triple bypass surgeries and chemotherapies, doesn't it say something
about its understanding of human health? If there were no working herbal
medicines, we wouldn't be around, ie. we would have died off as a
species thousands of years ago.
Eva
|
| 937.13 | | ASDG::CALL | | Mon Mar 17 1997 19:56 | 15 |
| no you aren't rattling my cage...I don't want to get caught up in a
personality conflict...amusing that you bought up the fact that you
aren't always so negative...
I was just curious as to 'why' you would even so much as spend time in
something you weren't interested in.
I'm more interested in herbs, nutrition, diet and yes ever the oriental
herbs and also the oriental diet.
They say that garlic is one of the best things you can take to both
treat and prevent. I drink herbal teas instead of soft drinks. I find
them very refreshing. I drink them both hot or cold.
|
| 937.14 | | IJSAPL::ANDERSON | All that sheep tupping worked! | Wed Mar 19 1997 10:30 | 6 |
| >If there were no working herbal medicines, we wouldn't be around, ie.
>we would have died off as a species thousands of years ago.
Anyone else notice the tiny flaw in the above theory?
Jamie.
|
| 937.15 | | WRKSYS::MACKAY_E | | Wed Mar 19 1997 13:23 | 18 |
|
Jamie,
I assume that you assume that wild animals do not use herbs/plants
to heal themselves and thus the flaw? If this is the case, then your
assumption is incorrect, as even domestic cats know to eat grass to
cause throwups. If you bother to read some of the ancient Chinese
medical journals or the Native Amercian medical accounts (and I am
sure the ancient Greeks, Romans, Indians and Eygptians have similar
accounts), you may realize that wild animals do employ plants that
do not constitute their regular diets to heal wounds and diseases.
And we all know that 75% of current prescription drugs are/were
herbal base or don't we? Penicillin molds have been discovered and
used as antibiotic in China long before there was the word "Penicillin".
Eva
|
| 937.16 | | IJSAPL::ANDERSON | All that sheep tupping worked! | Wed Mar 19 1997 15:08 | 60 |
| >If this is the case, then your assumption is incorrect, as even
>domestic cats know to eat grass to cause throwups.
There being 7 cats in total where I live I have noticed that they do
indeed nip out and eat the grass. For some strange reason despite there
being plenty of ground out there, and vast areas of tiled surface
indoors, they will seek out the few parts of the floor that are
carpeted to throw up on.
BTW did you notice that the domestic dog tends to eat all sorts of
things that can make it quite ill? Horses also are inclined to eat
things that are quite bad for them, sometimes fatal.
I seriously doubt that every species, including man, can attribute its
existence to its innate, or acquired knowledge of herbal remedies.
>Penicillin molds have been discovered and used as antibiotic in China
>long before there was the word "Penicillin".
And yet all the hospitals had septic wards where people with systemic
bacterial infections were rather messily dying? Did you also know that
the first man to be treated with penicillin died because they simply
could not produce it fast enough to treat him. I wonder how the Chinese
did it.
Herbal medicine is long on the claims and short on the evidence.
A good while back when the Medical Profession was getting its act in
gear they discovered that a lot of the research was being falsified.
Some of this falsification was deliberate and some of it was
accidental.
To eliminate both and get reliable results the double blind test was
invented.
The test patients were split into two or three balanced groups. In the
case of three groups one was labeled the control group and nothing at
all was done to them. Of the two groups one would be given the drug and
the other an identical looking placebo.
Neither the patients or the medical staff knew which group was getting
which treatment.
At the end of the test period they would have reliable results.
For some unexplained reason the Alternative Medicine tends to shy away
from double blind test. One possibility is that many of the remedies
that are so touted are in fact only placebos.
Well to tell the truth I did hear one claim that they were too busy
saving lives to take time out to do the testing.
>And we all know that 75% of current prescription drugs are/were
>herbal base or don't we?
Let us say they are made from an organic source. Mind you a lot of the
new ones are from custom made molecules, if my PDR is to be believed.
Jamie.
|
| 937.17 | | THOLIN::TBAKER | The Spirit of Apathy | Wed Mar 19 1997 16:30 | 26 |
| I agree that double blind studies are a good idea. I just feel
sorry for the folks receiving placebos if they're really sick.
These studies are most easily done by organizations with plenty
of money and organization. Regular herbs and homeopathy, as
far as I know, cannot be patented as they are "prior art". There
is actually a disincentive: It costs money.
How can we know that something works? Well, 200 or 2000 years
of experience can be persuasive in some circles.
Does that mean all herbal stuff is safe? Of course not. Chamomile
in moderate doses can make you thoroughly uncomfortable.
Homeopathy has it's own double blind studies. When testing a new
remedy they take two groups and give them the remedy or placebo to
see what happens. The people then write down any new symptoms they
experience. One test subject, who later found out he was taking
the placebo, had "dreams of cowboys." He was disappointed when he
found out he wasn't actually taking the remedy.
The older remedies that have been used for a couple hundred years
are likely not "tested" as they have been used and written about
by practitioners for many years.
Tom
|
| 937.18 | | ASDG::CALL | | Wed Mar 19 1997 21:17 | 43 |
| I think Jamie is locked into the mindset of the medical profession. I
also feel that the way they do business is changing. Maybe not right
away but it is going to change. Some of the things I see doctors doing
is getting people hooked on drugs. Some of these have side affects and
so they give them something else. My own mother takes so many pills.
Her blood pressure is over 300. If she would just begin to eat a
healthier diet. She takes all these pills and she'll never be off them.
My ex-mother in law was hooked on valiums. She would come home from
work and sleep till almost dinner time. If anything stressful would
come she just couldn't handle it.
I 'never' want some doctor to take control over me an my life. Not over
some pills. I've had times when I've been in extreme stress and the
chance to take the drugs has come and I made the choice then to say no.
I don't buy in to the way the doctors practice these days. You go into
an office...you wait..they all make you wait. Then you go into a room
and you wait some more. Then you spend 15 min with the doctor. He gives
you a pill and you go home. Then you wonder why you're not healed. I
don't think you can be healed that way. Even if there was a natural
cure you're doctor wouldn't 'tell' you about it.
Some of them don't even know that much about diet and nutrition.
Try not to let Jamie stir you up toooo much. He thrives on getting
people stirred up. He's been doing it for a long time.
Just read the notes on gun control in womennotes. He hasn't a clue
there either.
Jamie does have his good points and he isn't altogether negative.
too bad that he uses his energy this way....or maybe that's how he gets
his energy ... by getting you upset so you get mad.
Like I said I'm not going to get caught up in a personality conflict.
I'd like to write in here and have some useful conversations..if that's
possible without people going to extremes.
Is is possible not to get caught up in all this arguements...especially
over a mindset that are like apples and oranges.
|
| 937.19 | | IJSAPL::ANDERSON | All that sheep tupping worked! | Thu Mar 20 1997 08:49 | 30 |
| OK let me explain my "mind set" to you.
I do not think that you should regularly take any drug, herbal remedy,
or any other form of alternative medicine unless you have a condition
that needs treating.
I have noticed that we live in an ever more pill popping world. There
are people who are quite happy to eat a very poor diet because they
don't have time, or can't be bothered to feed themselves properly, then
attempt to redress the balance by popping vitamin pills.
People these days go into a doctor's office expecting to come out with
a prescription and complain if they only get advice.
I even know one grossly obese woman who suffers from adult onset
diabetes who refuses to control it by diet and insists on getting
insulin, this will ultimately shorten her life.
So it is not all caused by the Medical Profession and drug companies.
After more than 20 years of living with a pathologist I have a rather
jaded view of the Medical Profession. I hear of all their mistakes. I
also have a very good idea of what they can and cannot do. Believe me
the general public has a far greater faith in doctors than I do.
However they did save my life, and they do keep me alive with drugs.
Now that is something that Alternative Medicine could not have done for
me.
Jamie.
|
| 937.20 | | WRKSYS::MACKAY_E | | Thu Mar 20 1997 13:08 | 27 |
|
Well, I can't speak for western herbal medicine, but knowing a little
bit on Chinese herbal medicine, I can say that in general herbs are
not used singlarly and remedies/recipes are always custom tailored
to each individual according to the individual's constitution.
The Chinese have been human guinea pigs for many centuries and there
are written journals (some have been translated into English and
other languages) on how various herbs were discovered and experimented
with. I am sure there were mishaps, but having a written language
helped to pass on the knowledge to the living. As a matter of fact, the
first known medical documents were inscribed on some kind of turtle
shells called oracle bones. Because China has experienced quite a few
droughts/natural disasters and having very little arable land compared
to its population, famine was not uncommon. Even as we speak, China has
to import grains from the west. Thus, Chinese have tried to eat
practically every kind of plants and animals and minerals. One of the
results of such adventures is the wide variety (vertically - chicken feet
and horizontally - silk worms, water lily roots) of foods consumed and
another is the opportunity to sort out what is edible and what can kill
you. In a country where human life isn't put on a pelestal, as
reincarnation gets you many second chances ;-), you've got millions (it
is 1 billion now) of lab rats for 4000 years! No law suits, no patent
infringments, hey, a researcher's dream!
Eva
|
| 937.21 | Varying viewpoints is goodness | CSC32::J_KILLA | | Mon Mar 24 1997 21:26 | 12 |
| I have to say that I appreciate Jamie's input into this notesfile as
much as in the Medical notesfile. I think we sometimes put too much
faith into one healing philosophy or another and don't really take the
time to crtically analyze what someone recommends. I appreciate
Jamie's outlook because it offers another opinion that says to me
'don't take everything you read on faith'. I personally feel there are
times when I will take a medical doctor's advice and others when I will
lean more toward a homeopathic approach. So I hope Jamie and others
will continue to enter opposing opinions and the rest of us can make
decisions based on more than one viewpoint.
Jane
|
| 937.22 | | ASDG::CALL | | Tue Mar 25 1997 21:42 | 30 |
| I agree that some of Jamies notes add value. Although the philosophy
is not condusive to the term 'holistic'. It would be nice if I or
someone else could write their viewpoint and have their opinion without
someone else critically analyze it. I bet alot more people would share
if they didn't have to deal with that.
It would also be nice if people could interact without the arguements.
I also agree that their are moments when I would take a medical
doctor's advice and then times when I want to do my own research. I
would never want to live without doctors. I had my eyes tested today.
Got my eyes fitted for contacts.
When it comes to herbs Jamie is 'not' an expert. Maybe some of the
other medical things he knows more about. It's nice if the input is
added value. If it not then that's when the problem starts. Sometimes
he shows how much he doesn't know. That's when you have to chaff out
the wheat. Especially when it comes to alternative medicine.
People should have pro choice to decide for themselves. We are all here
to learn. I do agree that we can all learn from each other.
Nothing will ever take the place of a medical doctor...my doctor is
human. I think he over reacted. He never made an issue of anything. He
called - left a message on my answering machine. I got a letter saying
that my tests came out - very very good.
I got my card to say that I'm medically fit to fly an airplane.
|
| 937.23 | Yay for KC and Eva! | BGSDEV::RAMSAY | | Wed Mar 26 1997 14:33 | 13 |
| KC (Call) and Eva, Bravo. This is the holistic file. I applaud you
both.
I agree with what KC said -1, there is sometimes a need for a medical
doctor, e.g., when I get bronchitis I need a prescription top get rid
of it. On the other hand, I take
alfalfa tablets every day (20 or more) which relieves my body of
arthritis pain. I've been doing this for more than 12 years.
Eva, I find your input re China absolutely fascinating. Keep up the
lessons, if only just for me. :-)
*Susan*
|
| 937.24 | | THOLIN::TBAKER | The Spirit of Apathy | Wed Mar 26 1997 15:10 | 14 |
| > I agree with what KC said -1, there is sometimes a need for a medical
> doctor, e.g., when I get bronchitis I need a prescription top get rid
> of it. On the other hand, I take
We use conventional doctors after we've tried other things.
For example, I was diagnosed with pneumonia (by a conventional
medical person) and was able to clear it up with Goldenseal (yeach!)
and homeopathy.
If I found it was something I couldn't handle I would have taken
the prescription for antibiotics.
Tom
|
| 937.25 | | ASDG::CALL | | Thu Mar 27 1997 14:43 | 1 |
| Yes Eva...I want to know more about both the culture and the herbs.
|
| 937.26 | | IJSAPL::ANDERSON | Now noting in colour!" | Tue Apr 15 1997 14:56 | 63 |
| I found this in the Electronic Telegraph. I was most interested in the
comments on China and their traditional remedies.
Jamie.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
CANCER researchers issued a warning yesterday about untested remedies
on offer from alternative health practitioners.
However, a range of studies presented at the annual meeting of the
American Association of Cancer Research in San Diego yesterday
emphasised the value of food and vitamins in cancer prevention.
Although studies into genetics have not yet produced a sure weapon
against the renegade cells that cause cancer, researchers say they are
not ready to embrace many alternative medicines, some of which are
little more than quackery.
President-elect of the association, Prof Donald Coffey of Johns Hopkins
Hospital, said: "We need to learn, but we can't do it if it is too
hocus-pocus." He acknowledged that many drugs had come from natural
sources but added that in China, where Western medicine is the
alternative, the Chinese were increasingly turning away from
traditional remedies. "More and more they are moving to Western,
scientific medicine," he said.
The meeting was told in another presentation, by the Pittsburgh Cancer
Institute, that vitamin D, found in cod-liver oil, milk, butter and
eggs, inhibits prostate cancer in animals, suggesting that it has
potential for treating men with similar advanced disease. Vitamin D
binds to cancer cells and triggers either cancer cell death or the
transformation of the cells into more benign ones.
Last year, Harvard researchers reported that men who got at least 10
servings a week of tomato-based foods were up to 45 per cent less
likely than normal to develop prostate cancer, perhaps because they
were the primary source in the diet of a nutrient called lycopene. Now
a team from Columbia University has preliminary evidence that this may
be especially important for smokers. It found that concentrations of
lycopene were significantly lower in the lung cancer patients.
Other studies presented to the meeting include:
Animal studies suggest that orange juice protects laboratory animals
from cancer. In an effort to find out why, Dr Najla Guthrie and others
from the University of Western Ontario evaluated limonoids, the bitter
substance in limes, lemons, grapefruit and oranges. They found that a
limonoid called nomilin was an especially powerful inhibitor of cancer
in the test tube.
People in Mediterranean countries have traditionally had relatively
low risks of colon cancer, and some wonder whether pasta might be the
reason. In a study at the University of Florence, Dr Giovanna Caderni
compared the effects of sugar and pasta in rats. She found that
pasta-eating rodents had a lower risk of pre-cancerous polyps.
People with high intake of tofu and other foods made from soyabeans
also seem less likely to get some kinds of cancer. To test this, Dr
Jin-Rong Zhou, from Beth Israel-Deaconess Medical Centre in Boston, fed
soya concentrate to mice with bladder cancer. He found that their
tumours were about a third smaller than would have been expected.
15 February 1997: Smart foods
|