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Conference 7.286::space

Title:Space Exploration
Notice:Shuttle launch schedules, see Note 6
Moderator:PRAGMA::GRIFFIN
Created:Mon Feb 17 1986
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:974
Total number of notes:18843

865.0. "Could this be a bar on Mars ?!!" by RDGE33::SMITHSOND () Thu Aug 26 1993 11:02

    	Firstly...Hello !
    	This is the first time I've written in the Space notesfile, so here
    goes ...
    	I don't know whether this has been discused anywhere else in this
    notesfile, but if it has, no doubt this new topic will be moved there !
    	Anyway, I'm not a hardened space boffin, but I do take quite an
    interest in the general goings on in the space programs. I'm only
    working at Digital temporarily, so that is why I haven't featured in
    the notesfile before. As I am returning to university in October, I
    probably won't feature in it much in the future either...but nevermind
    eh ?
    	I was reading this in the newspaper today, and it is a topic which
    I think may stir up some healthy and interesting dicussion. So if you
    are ready, sit back, get comfortable, and read on...
    
    "NASA ACCUSED OF WRECKING �650M SPACE PROBE IN COVER-UP PLOT."
    
       To start with, there have been claims that a `face' on the surface of
    Mars was carved by intelegent beings. I've seen a photograph of this `face'
    and not sure of what to make of it. I find myself wondering if it is just a
    trick of the light over some luckily placed craters. But then I think,
    it is a `very' clever trick of the light to make it seem so real !
    	NASA has been accused of sabotaging the �650m Observer space
    mission because of it.
    	The photograph in question was taken by the Viking spacecraft in
    1976. Have any of you seen it ? Strange isn't it !?!
    	" A group of experts called Mars Mission claimed the Mars Observer
    spacecraft was deliberately disabled to stop it taking pictures of an
    abandoned city called Cydonia."  (!!!)
    	" Richard Hoagland, founder of Mars Mission, has been trying for
    years to get NASA to investigate the face."
    	" The space control scientists in Houston, Texas, insist it is
    simply a mountain."
    	Hoagland said : "There is an inside group in NASA that doesn't want
    this pursued. Maybe they literally pulled the plug."
    
    	If NASA has deliberately "pulled the plug" on the probe, then it
    has to be the most expensive cover-up plot yet !
    	Well, I'm not sure. I can't bring myself to believe it personally,
    but it does seem to be a very convenient way of not disclosing the
    truth...should there be something worth covering up.
    	Would NASA really waste all that money, deliberately ? I doubt it.
    	So, fellow noters, just what do you reckon is going on here ? Is it
    just some bad luck for NASA, and they have actually just lost the
    probe, or is it a cover-up, as speculated ?
    	I look forward to your comments, and the debate that will
    (hopefully) follow.
    
    	Best wishes to you all,
    
    	Dan.  
        
T.RTitleUserPersonal
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865.1Just Bad LuckRUMOR::WOOKPC::leeWook, like "Book" with a "W"Thu Aug 26 1993 11:4310
I'd say it's just bad luck. Even though the odds of something going wrong is 
small, it's still non-zero.

re the "face on Mars"

Quite frankly, I think the reason why NASA hasn't studied it much is that for 
many NASA scientists, it's just not as interesting as some other aspects of 
Mars exploration.

Wook
865.2HELIX::MAIEWSKIThu Aug 26 1993 13:2221
  I guess the sad thing about the report in .0 is that there are a number of
people who take it half seriously. 

  It's not so much that they out and out believe it, but when those reports are
put together with the negative spin given to the real news by anchors like Tom
Brokaw, it adds to the over all cynical feeling people have about NASA which
discourages Congress-critters from voting for NASA programs. 

  I was listening to Brokaw yesterday as he talked about the "string of NASA
disasters". He mentioned the "flawed" Hubble, the lost weather satellite, and
the Shuttle delays but conveniently left out the Venus Radar Mapper which was a
major success and the fact that the Shuttle's success rate is now something
like 98%. Sort of breaks his "string". 

  Well, nothing new. The networks know on what side their bread is buttered.
Talking about disasters and faces on Mars draws a lot more viewers than talking
about the black hole at the center of a galaxy discovered by the "flawed"
Hubble Telescope or showing never before seen topography from the surface
of Venus.

  George 
865.3DCOPST::TONYSC::SCOLAROOne Way outThu Aug 26 1993 15:2327
George,

To call the shuttle success rate 98% discredits everything else you say.

Sure, one disaster in 50 launches is 98%, NON-DISASTER.

If you said that, I could agree 100%.

But, to me, one component of success could be launching when you say you will.

For this measure, shuttle has az 0% success rate.  They have NEVER launched when
they first said they would.  Sometimes, missions have had 5 attempts!!!!!

To know figures like this and then claim 98% success is shading the truth to the
same extent that those you lambast shade the truth.

And to pretend that NASA is not now having a sting of, shall we call it bad
luck, is to be as an ostrich.  Losing a $1B planetary explorer, losing a $500M
weather sat (with the remaining two birds being on their last legs), discovery,
0 for what, 4 in trying to launch now, Galelio, still crippled (perhaps not
fataly so, but crippled none the less), Hubble, short of design and the barest
of margins away from having to shut-down (due to failing gyro's) and Magellan's
mission cut short due to a transmitter failure.

Now is not what I would call the heyday of NASA's success.

Tony
865.4HELIX::MAIEWSKIThu Aug 26 1993 15:4417
  Since Challenger, NASA has reaffirmed that they they put safety first. The
goal is to launch a successful mission. Launching on the target date is not a
priority, that date is just set for scheduling purposes. If they can't go one
day they go the next. 

  In fact, that has been the case throughout the history of manned flight.
Plenty of Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo missions were delayed for safety reasons.
There is no precedent for saying that success of a manned space flight depends
on hitting the 1st target launch date.

  As for the failures, sure there are failures but there are successes as well.
I'm not saying that guys like Brokaw should cover up the failures, I'm only
saying they should give the successful missions equal time when reciting the
NASA score card and not "spin" the story and report it as if everything NASA
tries is a failure. 

  George 
865.5DCOPST::TONYSC::SCOLAROOne Way outThu Aug 26 1993 15:5824
Name me any other string of launches where not one in 50 made it on time.

Also, unless I am quite mistaken, some have had mission profiles altered by
equipment failure.  Computer glitches come to mind, in addition to at least one
abort to orbit.

Admittedly, some missions have also been extended.  (but even some of the
extensions were to recoup data lost by a failure that had been corrected or
because a landing was not feasible due to weather).

I also remember video of an early landing at the Cape.  I think it was
discovery, in modest cross-winds.  The brakes locked and there was a fire on the
wheel.  The (I think it was the right rear) wheel assembly was worn almost in
half and a slight pick-up in the cross-wind would have resulted in the orbiter
leaving the runway and possibly resulting in hundreds of millions of dollars
worth of damage.

After this incident, there were no more landings at the cape until the brakes
were fixed, took about 3 years.

98% success rate is DEAD out WRONG.  I absolutely detest it when someone invents
figures that distort the facts.

Tony
865.6HELIX::MAIEWSKIThu Aug 26 1993 16:034
  What do mission profiles and landing have to do with a Launch rate?

  George
865.7Rathole alert -KALI::M_HUGHESThu Aug 26 1993 16:2912
I believe the original topic was the objects on the surface in the Cydonia
region of Mars. I was listening to the BBC news on WBUR last night on my way
home and they had an interview with Hoagland where he called for a Presidential
investigation into what he called a "cover-up of massive proportions". He 
further demanded that the imaging from Mars Observer be made available real-time
and they specifically target the "Face", the "Pyramids" and etc.

It looks like this will be academic at this point, which is painful enough, but
to claim that the mission was scuttled to protect the "cover-up" adds insult
to injury.

Mike Hughes
865.8CXDOCS::J_BUTLERE pur, si muove...Thu Aug 26 1993 16:3011
    Remember, too, that the shuttle is one of the most complex systems
    ever constructed. You may argue the wisdom of building complex
    systems for routine access to space, but to judge it by the same
    standards as far less complex systems is stretching the point.

    Oversimplifications and generalities, as I am sure you know, are
    very dangerous.

    Regards,

    John B.
865.9I don't buy itAUSSIE::GARSONnouveau pauvreFri Aug 27 1993 00:068
    re .0
    
    I could just about believe that some of the management/political types would
    go for a cover up but there is no way that the people who have worked on
    this project at the ground level would. There's a lot of emotional
    attachment to "your" project. What would you do if someone above you ordered
    you to send a fatal command to your spacecraft? How long before it leaked
    out? [I admit that the mode of sabotage is not specified.]
865.10Cover up would hurts NASA's budget... why do itECADSR::BIROFri Aug 27 1993 08:4519
    No, I think what you see is what you got, NASA budget is up for grabes
    and make a lot of news about the face/pyrmids would have been a
    positive reaction for their budgets.
    
    A cover up would hurt their budget.  
    
    As for the Pyrmids, I was one of the first to seem them and
    I dont think they are made by ET.  They are worth looking at again as
    they will give us an indication of what is going on with the climit of
    Mars.  The face is about as much interest as the old man of the
    mountain, it would make a great tourist attraction, great PR for NASA
    so why cover it up.
    
    ( I work on the equipment that converted the digital image to photos
    for the maping of Mars at USGS NM)
    
    
    jb
    
865.11DCOPST::TONYSC::SCOLAROOne Way outFri Aug 27 1993 11:0921
.2 says 

Shuttle's success rate is now something like 98%.

.6 says

What do mission profiles and landing have to do with a Launch rate?

You have redefined success rate to be launch success rate.  Further you have
defined success to mean NON-DISASTER

sorry, BS, success rate, in my book is only tangentally related to launch
success.  

If in your initial statement, you had said 'the shuttle's non-disaster launch
rate is 98%', we would have had no disagreement.  But you have defined the
statistic so narrowly as to have NO MEANING.  You are as bad as you claim Brokaw
is, just on the other side.

Tony

865.12HELIX::MAIEWSKIFri Aug 27 1993 11:3213
  I notice you hit .2 and .6 but did a nice dance around .4 where I very
explicitly said launch success rate. Clever context snipping. 

  In any case, the launch success rate is something like 55/56 or better which
is over 98%. The goal for most launchers is 95%. 

  Also, if you look at missions from the point of view of returning scientific
information, there is virtually no loss due to delays. In the long run,
Launching a telescope a couple months late or flying a space lab a couple
months late doesn't hurt a bit. Mankind still learns something new and 3 years
later no one remembers if we learned it 3 years ago or 3 years 2 months ago. 

  George
865.13What is 'Mission Success?'CXDOCS::J_BUTLERE pur, si muove...Fri Aug 27 1993 11:3335
    IMHO, the shuttle success should not be evaluated by the all
    too simple "did it launch on time?" or "did it blow up?" standards.

    The success of the shuttle should be evaluated on mission
    effectiveness. Questions such as "did it work?" are often LESS 
    important than the understanding of how the _system_ worked and
    why something performed the way it did.

    What is mission effectiveness? In my opinion it is a combination of the
    following:

    - Did the principal investigators get a return of useful data on their
      experiments?
    - Did mission support personnel get useful data on mission operations
      and system performance?
    - If something did _not_ work according to spec, did the right people get
      sufficient data to evaluate the problem? (What works on Earth and in
      the simulator does not always work "out there"...we need to
      understand what the important AND unimportant differences are.

    Launching "on time" is usually an insignificant "nice-to-have" thing...with
    the exception of launching inter-planetary probes such as Magellan and
    Galileo.

    The important thing...the REALLY important thing...is what is LEARNED
    not what is "spent." Sure, if we can do it with less money, that is
    good, but when the cost becomes paramount...well, we can save a LOT
    of money by not doing ANYTHING at all, can't we? Unfortunately,
    there are (apparently) some people in positions of influence that DO 
    feel that way. 

    Regards,

    John B.

865.14Any News Yet?WELCLU::DAWSFri Aug 27 1993 11:3415
    
    So what is the latest news?
     
    Has the Mars Observer been lost or are they still trying to `repair'
    it?
    
    The Television news here in the U.K. is pretty bad for reporting this
    kind of stuff, all i've heard so far is a minute clip at the end of 
    one news broadcast - but at least they did show the pictures of the
    face and pyramid - Weird!
    
    Cheers,
    
    Mark.
                                                                 
865.15See Topic 528CXDOCS::J_BUTLERE pur, si muove...Fri Aug 27 1993 11:398
    News on the Mars Observer mission is in topic 528.
    
    To go directly to the last entry, type "528.LAST" (without quotes)
    at the NOTES> prompt.
    
    Regards,
    
    John B.
865.16ECADSR::BIROFri Aug 27 1993 12:307
    Mark, I find it interesting that they are showing the
    images of the pyrmids, how many pyrmids are in the
    image that they show.
    
    
    thanks john
    
865.17Too good not to pass on....42110::RICKETTSWell fax meMon Sep 06 1993 06:0223
                <<< KAU101::DUA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HUMOR.NOTE;2 >>>
                                   -< humor >-
================================================================================
Note 667.1                 Space, Probes, & Satellites                    1 of 1
KAOOA::PRINCE "Nothing succeeds like excess"         16 lines   3-SEP-1993 10:19
                         -< Jet Propulsion Lab humor >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seen on a hall wall at JPL:

(each letter appears to have been cut out of a magazine
  and pasted on the paper )

           we have your
         satelite if you
          want it back
         send 20 billion
           in martian
         money. No funny
           business or
         you will never
          see it again

865.18Pyramids42498::DAWSMon Sep 06 1993 11:1711
    
    
    RE: .16
    
    There was only one pyramid shown as with the face, although several
    photographs gave a good idea of the 3-D image.
    
    Both pictures looked too perfect to be naturally formed.
    
    Mark. 
    
865.19Was it like being in Egypt??SSDEVO::LUJANTue Sep 07 1993 18:2916
    
    	I haven't seen the pictures of the pyramid, but I am
    	curious if they resemble the "great pyramids" of 
    	Egypt - which I believe to be 4-sided, and resembling
    	a neatly stacked pile of rocks.
    
    	Of course the "Great Pyramids" are supposed to have a 
    	mysterious power associated with them, maybe the one
    	on Mars posses the like and caused the failure !
    	( just kiddin!)
    
    	If anyone knows if pictures have been taken in periodicals
    	please let me know.
    
    	Tina
    
865.20Viking-1 PicturesWELCLU::DAWSWed Sep 08 1993 09:595
    
    Very interesting note on the Pyramid photographs in 528.294 from the
    Viking-1 mission.
    
    Mark
865.21Pros and cons of the FaceVERGA::KLAESQuo vadimus?Wed Sep 15 1993 15:55678
Article: 42166
Newsgroups: sci.astro
From: [email protected] (Tom Van Flandern)
Subject: Re: Why would aliens draw FACES on Mars?!?
Organization: The Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link, Sausalito, CA
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1993 17:21:53 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
 
[email protected] (Luca De Alfaro) writes:
 
> On Earth there are (among other animals) humans, and they have sometimes
> dug human-like faces in the ground. Good. But why should "martians" do
> the same? What to the "face-believers" think?  ...  If someone has some
> better insight into why they are so excited by a face on Mars, I would be
> interested in knowing.
 
	Although I don't qualify as a "face-believer", I think I can answer
Luca's question.
 
	Few if any of the people who have examined the face and think it may
be an artifact attribute it to present-day martians.  Only a few even
attribute it to past martians.
 
	The general opinion of those who are optimistic about the abundance
of intelligent life in our galaxy is to suspect that interstellar travelers
visit suitable terrestrial planets on occasion for exploration and mining.
I know of no valid scientific argument that would allow us to conclude that
such a thing is improbable.
 
	The suspicions are that these interstellar visitors built bases on
planets they mined.  If the latest visit to Mars was within the past three
million years, the visitors would have been aware of humans on earth.  Some
even speculate they had something to do with promoting the presence of
humans on earth.
 
	The "face" on Mars is atop a base or platform of considerable
height.  Interpreting this anomaly as an artifact, one would have to assume
that the platform was some sort of utilitarian structure.  Ornamenting the
top with smaller structures that resembled a human face was then done for
purposes we can only only guess at, but was presumably either an architect's
sphinx- like signature, or was designed to attract human attention when we
reached this stage of exploration of the solar system (ala Arthur Clarke).
 
	While reciting this speculative notion, I should mention the
writings of Z. Sitchin (e.g., "The Twelfth Planet"), whose expertise is
translation of the original Sumerian texts that pre-dated the so-called
"sacred writings" of each of the major cultures now on earth.  Those
original writings are not entirely fictional because they describe the
locations of ancient cities and events, a few of which have now been
verified.
 
	Where Sitchin departs from all other scholars is in his willingness
to use the best modern translation for the concepts described in the ancient
writings.  For example (and pivotally), while traditional scholars may
translate a phrase as "the gods ascended to the clouds in their fiery
chariot" and assume that the story is a myth, Sitchin translates the same
phrase as "the extraterrestrials took off in their spacecraft" and takes the
writers literally.
 
	Proceeding in this way, Sitchin recovers the stories of the garden
of Eden, the flood, the tower of Babel, Sodom & Gomorrah, and many other
stories preserved in the oldest writings of all cultures as literal history
with an interesting extraterrestrial twist to them.
 
	Although there is little evidence to support Sitchin's version of
the translations (there is some evidence, but it's weak), there is equally
little counter-evidence.  The stories support the notion that
extraterrestrial visitation is commonplace on time scales of hundreds of
thousands of years.  One of the strongest supporting experiments is that of
Robert M. Schoch of Boston University [Schoch, R.M.  "Redating the Great
Sphinx of Giza."  KMT, Modern J.Anc.Egypt 3, 52-59 & 66-70 (1992)], who
reported to the Geological Society of America that the original Sphinx at
the base of the Great Pyramid at Giza in Egypt is at least 9000 years old
(i.e., dates back to at least the last ice age, judging from extensive water
erosion evidence in the rocks in this otherwise desert region).
 
	My own interest in these topics is to filter out the influence of
personal belief systems and to form valid scientific hypotheses and perform
or encourage the falsification tests that would shed some light on their
validity.  MO was going to provide an excellent falsifiability test of the
martian anomalies.  In my recent book, I propose a fairly definitive
falsifying test of the Sitchin translations in the form of sampling sediment
from the bottom of the Dead Sea for evidence of long-lived radioactivity
that must remain from the use of nuclear detonations at Sodom & Gomorrah in
ancient times, according to the translations.
 
	I don't assume anything about these hypotheses except that, as
scientifically viable and falsifiable theories, they are deserving of
serious attention and testing; and undeserving of the ridicule that usually
attends them.  We should not be telling history how it was, but asking
observations and experiments how it was (and is).  Let the results speak for
themselves.  -|Tom|-
 
-- 
Tom Van Flandern / Washington, DC / [email protected]
Meta Research was founded to foster research into ideas not otherwise
supported because they conflict with mainstream theories in Astronomy.


Article: 42728
From: [email protected] (George William Herbert)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary
Subject: Re: Mars Observer Update #2 - 08/25/93
Date: 7 Sep 1993 03:41:03 GMT
Organization: Retro Aerospace
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Van Flandern <[email protected]> wrote:

>	Let me address the "scientific analysis" issue here.  [...]
>Another test was the fractal analysis, using software
>designed to detect artificiality, written to find camouflaged buildings and
>objects on earth.  In that test, three Cydonia formations tested as likely
>"artificial".
 
Fractal analysis also false-alarms on a number of natural terrain features
on Earth, at a statistically significant rate.  That it says that these
features are likely "artificial" is meaningless unless that exact program
is also tested against the rest of the Mars surface and the Earth's surface
and the rates of false alarms studied.
 
>	"Photoclinometric analysis (also called "shape from shading")
>indicates that the Face actually has the three-dimensional structure
>apparent on the Viking frames.  The Face is quantitatively unique within its
>setting, with a fractal signature curve strongly indicating possible
>artificial origin.  Facial details difficult to explain from a geological
>standpoint are coherently related in terms of possible artificiality.
>Application of a wide range of techniques for analysis of the Face, both
>qualitative and quantitative, have turned up mutually reinforcing results
>consistently supporting the likelihood of artificiality.  The weight of the
>evidence for the possibility that the Face is a product of intelligence
>justifies adopting the *working assumption* that the Face is artificial, for
>the sake of prediction and test."
 
I have just addressed the fractal signature.  The geological details
are by no means hard to explain from a natural standpoint; similar formations
exist on earth, and given enough time one is bound to occur which is
more or less symmetrical.  The Wind is a powerful sculptor.
 
>	On NASA's (lack of) research, McDaniel says:
>	"Among the many possibilities open to NASA for further research are
>those listed below.
>	* locating additional frames showing the object illuminated at
>different sun angles.
 
NASA has indeed done this, results negative.
 
>	* applying computer enhancement techniques to bring out additional
>detail
 
NASA has indeed done this, results negative.
 
>	* investigating the surrounding terrain to determine the presence or
>non-presence of other anomalous features
 
NASA has indeed done this, results negative.
 
>	* measuring and evaluating the relationships between other features
>of interest, if found, and the Face
 
NASA hasn't done this to my knowledge.  However, the concept of seeing
relationships in the geometric layout of geological features was quite
significantly debunked when an independent researcher was able to derive
a set of mathematical relationships seemingly as significant as those
Hoagland has identified by taking a random Landsat photo of earth and
applying similar methodology.
 
>	* measuring the dimensions and internal geometry of all landforms of
>interest in the area
 
Again, until the fractal software used on these objects is widely tested
on Earth and Mars geography, this is scientifically meaningless.
 
>	* searching for similar objects elsewhere on the planet
 
NASA and thousands of graduate students have pored over every image available
of Mars, and haven't found anything they considered "neat" enough along
those lines to go write a book about.
 
>	* applying new techniques and advanced algorithms for computer
>enhancement as those become available
 
I.e. "Don't get on with your life, concentrate on this thing here because
we think it's neat!"
 
>	* soliciting the participation of experts in other fields than
>geology, such as cartography, classical mathematics, symbolic communication,
>anthropology, archaeology, and aesthetics.
 
NASA and USGS have cartographers, they do maps of various places we've
explored.  I've personally talked to two applied mathematicians who
thought that the logic and mathematics used in "investegating" Cydonis
were bunk.  I've talked to field archaeologists about it and they 
said that they'd seen equally wierd things in Landsat photos which they
had bothered to check out on the ground, and come up totally empty.
Sending them to Mars to generate the same results would be a bit expensive.
 
>	To make the claim that a genuine scientific investigation has been
>undertaken, NASA would have to have done all or most of the things listed
>above.  But none of these possibilities appear to have been explored by
>NASA, either in 1976 or later.  In contrast, independent researchers have
>explored all of them, with increasingly positive results."
 
To the contrary, many of the above were indeed explored by NASA, and the
nearly uniformly negative results discovered by professional planetary 
scientists lead me to believe that a bunch of relative amateurs are
making mistakes in basic science and methodology.
 
>	After reading the McDaniel report, enough specific details are given
>to justify drawing some conclusions.  Paraphrasing your own words, Bill, one
>can point to specific documented actions by NASA in the report that would
>justify saying of NASA's actions:  "Scientific"?  Right ;-)  NASA is
>interested in one thing only - money.  Its investigation of the Cydonia
>anomalies was about on the level of "Chariots of the Gods".
 
I really have to read the McDaniel report sometime, but if your posting
contained its essential charges, they're bunk.  It's not science, it's
ignoring a lot of good science which was done (and came up with negative
results), and it's getting really old.
 
>	That problem is of far greater concern to me than anything Richard
>Hoagland has to say.  -|Tom|-
 
NASA is far from perfect, but those scientists and engineers working
there that I've had chance to meet are professional, curious human
beings. If there was something there that stood up to scientific
testing, which has been applied, they'd be going ape over it.  It
didn't, and they aren't.  It's interesting, we should image that area
at better resolution (hell, we should image the whole planet at better
resolution...), but it's not by any means worthy of coming to a
"working conclusion" that the features are artificial. 
 
-george william herbert
Retro Aerospace
 

Article: 42695
From: [email protected] (Wolfram Kresse)
Newsgroups: sci.astro
Subject: The Cydonia-face - and why it isn't one.
Date: 6 Sep 1993 15:40:01 GMT
Organization: TU Darmstadt
Sender: [email protected] ()
 
Yet another article containing pro and contra against the Face on Mars.
(How often was this discussed so far?)
 
Well, I really *wish* I could believe it's artificial, but after looking
at the two *original* pictures from Viking I there are several reasons why
it can't be:
 
If you look at the *whole* pictures you can see several elevated, flat
platforms in the area around the 'face'. On some of these platforms
are hills and other, more elevated regions. If you compare these
platforms with the face you can see: The face is nothing more than
another, smaller platform with some hills on it: The bright reflecting
stripe at the side indicating the height of these platforms (the one
from the face and the others in the surrounding) has the same thickness. 

Well, you all know of the ability of the human brain to detect common
things in shapes one sees. So, if you see the pictures of the face
everywhere it is very easy to see a face in them. Especially if the
contrast and the bright- ness of these pictures are altered in a way
that it can't be something else but a face. 

I cut the face out of the original pictures, eliminated the
noise-dots, increased the size (_not_ by interpolating, just by
plotting the same pixel twice or four times), put them both on the
screen and altered the contrast in both directions. (I can post the
C-Program with the 'face'-parts of the two Viking-pictures, if some of
you are interested; the noise-reduction is quite good, although I
figured the algorithms out for myself :) The resolution of the
Viking-Images is just not good enough to see eyeballs or teeth or
whatever: One eye has a diameter of probably 3 or 4 pixels, the mouth
is about 2x10 pixels. If you interpolate it to get a higher
resolution, well, maybe if you use the 'right' algorithm, you can make
everything out of it. 

Another important thing: the face is deinitely _not_ symmetrical: If
you look at the face closely you must see that the right 'eye' is far
too low / the left 'eye' is far to high positioned. And if you vary
the contrast you can see that the left eye is nothing more than the
shadow of the left 'eyebrow', another small hill on the face-platform.
 
And I'm repeating again: I hoped that the face could be a proof for
intelligent life on mars, but after looking for the original Images
(35A70 and 70A13, hope I remember correctly) and analysing them after
I found them, I had to admit that it's just a natural phenomena.  Sorry. 
 
bye
 
Wolfram
 
--
 
+-------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|       |Wolfram Kresse * E-Mail: [email protected]|
|  / \  +--------------------------+---------------+--------------------+
|  o o  |"Meeneemeeneemeenee"      |CU l8r, LE g8r!|
|   <   |"Yes,that's right,Tweeky."+---------------+
|  ___  +-----+----+---------------+
| /   \ | 8^) | =) |
+-------+-----+----+
 

Article: 70332
From: [email protected] (George William Herbert)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: CNN covers itself w/ glory
Date: 25 Aug 1993 00:34:32 GMT
Organization: Retro Aerospace
 
Notice! long included body followed by long history of the Face
controversy.  If you're not in the mood, skip the article 8-)
You have been warned.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Kenneth Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:

>I agree with you that CNN should not be spending time reporting about the
>"structures" on Mars.  At this point in time, the status of the Mars
>Observer is much more important.  However, I have to disagree with you
>on your claim that the "Face" effort is pseudoscientific.  Take a look
>at the book Monuments of Mars by Richard Hoagland.  In it he documents
>everything that he and his colleagues did to analyze the Viking photos.
>All of the people working on this original effort were scientists.  They
>used state-of-the-art techniques in analyzing the photos.  They document
>all of there assumptions, they state their hypothesis, they document the
>experiements, and report the results.  They have kept their work extremely
>scientific, and in my opinion their efforts do not deserve the label
>"pseudoscientific crap".  Now then it is true that the tabloids have reported
>on this "face" with all sorts of weird stories, but that does not take
>away from the hard scientific work that was performed.  Hoagland can not
>stop "fringe" people from joining in on this effort and trying to bring
>"New Age" interpretations to it.
>
>For me the jury is out.  It was my hope that the Mars Observer camera would
>be able to take at least one photo of the Cydonia region during its mission
>and that one photo, (hoping for such factors as no dust storms, proper
>lighting, etc.) with the enhanced resolution would put to rest the issue
>one way or another.  With the resolution of that camera, it would be
>readily clear as to whether the "face" is actually a face, or if its just
>a bunch of rocks, just like your Triceratops, however cool looking, was just
>a cloud.
>
>However, to restate what I previously said, I agree with you that the whole
>idea of NASA trying to cover something up is ridiculous and that while
>NASA is trying to regain communications with the Mars Observer, the "face"
>should not even be mentioned on national news programs.
 
Hi Ken.  Just to let you and anyone else who hasn't been on sci.space
for a long time know, here's my background on this issue, and some
research I've done on it, and what I believe is actually happening.
 
In early 1988, UC Berkeley's SPACE (Students Promoting Aerospace
Careers and Education, quite an acronym-stretch... 8-) student group
hosted a debate and meeting between Richard Hoagland and several
planetary scientists at NASA Ames who'd been working on
photointerpretation of Viking images, in conjunction with people at
JPL and elsewhere. 
 
Hoagland went first and gave a reasonably straightforwards
presentation, talking about his initial work on interpreting the
images, the followup outside image enhancement, and listing a number
of the interesting site layout features at the Cydona site.  He left
out the tail end of his book, the part where he heads off into left
field speculating about aliens (and in fact admitted that he'd been
off on a tangent with that).  He finished by complaining that NASA
wouldn't even run image enhancement algorithms on the Cydona images. 
 
He was followed by the NASA scientists, who immediately launched into
a vehement attack upon pseudoscience in any form or manner, raking
Hoagland and several previous pseudoscientific writers across the
coals for confusing the public etc.  They managed to nearly entirely
miss Hoagland's actual arguments, however. 
 
The initial presentations ended and people moved forwards with a
general debate, wherein Hoagland complained mightily about NASA's
having impeded his work all these years and the NASA people saying
that the enhancements Hoagland's crowd had done were totally wrong. 
They mentioned that they'd done the enhancements and gotten negative
results. Hoagland didn't believe them. 
 
The lively debate finally broke up about 10 pm, and Hoagland drove
back to catch the plane back to LA.  The NASA group decided to join a
bunch of us students for Pizza and a bit of beer.  We all marched off
to LaVal's Pizza Northside in Berkeley. 
 
After a little while, we'd been talking and I asked the scientists why
they hadn't just given Hoagland the enhancements that he wanted, or
publish them or anything to squash the face groupies? 
 
"We have too hard a time publishing any negative results."
 
Hoagland didn't know that they'd run these enhancements prior to the
debate.  Afterwards, I think didn't believe they'd been run, because
the NASA people weren't being at all cooperative and he thought they
were either incompetent or doing a coverup. 
 
We are now past that which I have hard evidence for, and are headed
into what is partially confirmed by the above discussions, several
followups, and other information sources, and partially my speculation. 
 
The Face phenomena was based on some sketchy and unreplicated image
enhancements of the "Face", and mathematical relationships among
geologic features around it.  NASA's professional image enhancement
people got opposite results from those the Face group got, and at
least one planetary scientist took a random earth surface site photo
and determined an equally impressive set of mathematical relationships
to those claimed at the Cydonis site.  Both the legs of the claims of
something abnormal there are therefore disputed and likely wrong. 
 
The problem isn't that there is any basic question as to wether
there's something at the site or not.  The problem is in the way the
development of the "Face" story was handled by its proponents and
detractors. 
 
When Hoagland started writing about what he'd found, naturally people
at NASA took interest.  They looked at the site and the images, ran
some image enhancements, and got negative results.  "Good." they said,
"No big deal, we can relax." They neglected to let Richard Hoagland know. 
 
Hoagland kept it up.  He bothered NASA for the raw data and for them
to do enhancements.  They said "go away"; they did the work, thought
he was a flake, and didn't want to deal with him.  Hoagland thought
they were just being head-in-sand skeptics, so he kept working on it
and brought in some image enhancement people from outside. 
Eventually, he got the raw data and they did some work which suggested
that the face might be very face-like, and traced out the complex web
of other geographic relationships of the site. 
 
The official NASA position was to ignore all of this.  Unofficially,
the word got through the grapevine that the scientists had tested this
all and gotten negative results.  Nobody published, though. 
 
The situation essentially deteriorated since then.  The planetary
science people have perfectly good results saying that Hoagland's
wrong, and are pissed that they keep having to tell people he's wrong.
 Hoagland kept going around promoting the idea among those who weren't
"in the know" about the negative results; i.e. everyone on earth who
isn't a planetary scientist. Given that Hoagland was slowly getting
better and better evidence for his claims, and that there was no
official release of negative evidence disproving those claims, people
believed him. 
 
Richard Hoagland is, I believe, wrong.  He's also a lousy scientist. 
That's not a bad thing; most people are lousy scientists, and I've
been wrong a whole lot before myself. He also has a mindset which
tends towards solutions which distinctly violate Ockhams' Razor. 
THis, I object to, but again it's pretty common today.  People love to
see conspiracies, UFO's, whatever. 
 
The planetary science community* is, I believe, right. They're also
lousy sociologists.  This is to be expected; few people are really
wide-horizoned enough to realize the far-reaching effects of what
they've done. They didn't realize that their lack of public
counterevidence, combined with Hoagland's continued advocacy, would
cause the phenomena to blossom. 
 
I think that the science community should accept a lot of the blame,
for operating in a manner that negative results are so hard to
publicize. I think that Richard Hoagland should back off and reexamine
things with some degree of trust in NASA's results.  Together, they
all managed to make a massive mess, and it's everyone's fault. 
 
-george william herbert
Retro Aerospace
 

Article: 70385
From: [email protected] (P. Douglas Reeder)
Newsgroups: sci.space,alt.sci.planetary
Subject: Huntress on MacNeil/Lehrer about Mars Observer
Date: 25 Aug 1993 08:15:16 GMT
Organization: Div, Grad & Curl
 
The MacNeil/Lehrer News Hour featured the Mars Observer problems as its 
lead focus story tonight (Tuesday).  After a 3-4 minute backgrounder 
which included short takes from the news conference at JPL this 
afternoon, Robert MacNeil interviewed Dr. Wesley Huntress, NASA 
Associate Administrator for Space Science for at least eight minutes. 
 
They covered most of the factual material that has been previously
posted here.  No change in the situation had occured, as of whenever
the show went to tape.  An effort has/will be made to to observe the
insertion burn with ground-based infrared telescopes.  Huntress stated
that if no burn occurs, there is some chance for another rendezvous
with Mars in 8-10 months. 
 
Coverage was relatively good, though the backgrounder did say "This
latest mishap is part of a growing problem for NASA these days:
projects going astray. From the explosion of the Challenger, to the
Hubble Space Telescope, which was launched with a flawed mirror, to
the Gallileo Jupiter probe, another spacecraft bedeviled by technical
glitches." Three minutes into the inteview, MacNeil did ask "A group
of scientist today in Washinton, including some who had former
associations with NASA, complained that you weren't paying enough
attention to the signs of intelligent order on Mars and that NASA has,
they claim, has made up its mind, there ain't any life there, and
doesn't want to know, and doesn't want that assurance challenged." to
which Huntress responded that they would love to find evidence of life
or former life on Mars, and that data is published openly.   MacNeil
followed up more specifically, asking about photography of the alleged
face and other alleged figures, to which Huntress replied that they
did intend to image the sites, but at the highest resolution, aiming
was tricky. 
 
Huntress answered the questions well, though he had a tendency to
answer a different or slightly diffent question than the one asked. 
 
Doug Reeder                              Internet: [email protected]
Div, Grad & Curl                         USENET:   ...!tektronix!reed!reeder
programming & derivative work 
I am actively seeking scientific programming contracts.


Article: 70523
From: [email protected] (Jeff Bytof - SIO)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Mars Face Follies
Date: 26 Aug 1993 01:12:04 GMT
Organization: San Diego Supercomputer Center @ UCSD
 
I think this Mars face stuff is interesting, and maybe the NASA
scientists should sit back and let these folks form a political
constituency and dog and picket Congress and the President until they
get what they want. 
 
I don't personally believe that these are artifacts of another
civilization, but the mystery they provoke is highly reminiscent of
the driving motivation to get to Mars starting in the last 1800's to
almost the present: canals, green spots, erroneous observations of
oxygen and water vapor in the Martian atmosphere. 
 
I would not, if I were a scientist, embrace any of the "face cultists"
or promote their beliefs.  I just would not stand in the way and when
pressed for my position say "there's a lot we don't know yet" or "you
know as much as I do". 
 
The apparent failure of MO and the conspiritorial interpretation given
it by the cultists could concievably enhance interest among the public
for the next attempt at Mars. 
 
-Jeff Bytof


Article: 70814
From: [email protected] (john m hughes)
Newsgroups: sci.space,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: MARS OBSERVER & PLAYING DOWN CONSPIRACY (longish)
Date: 27 Aug 1993 08:21:32 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (R
Ross Holder Jr) writes: 

>I apologize if this matter has already received its share of attention, but
>if someone would be so kind as to delve into it again so I can satisfy my
>curiosity it would be appreciated.  There have been some references in
>sci.space to the "silliness" of the NASA conspiracy theory, the coincidental
>loss of the two Russian probes prior to this, etc.  Yet there exist a group
>of scientists (forget their name) who actually suggest that NASA was
>avoiding examination of the "face" and pyramids on Mars.  Am I to understand
>that the skeptics find this notion truly absurd, and if so on what is this
>attitude based (beyond the notion that neither governments nor their
>agencies are capable of such complicated fascades)?  Can it be
>authoritatively said the the loss of three successive missions to Mars is
>mere coincidence?  
>-- 
>_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
>R. Ross Holder, Jr.                  | Office Phone: (204) 474-6520
>The University of Manitoba           | Internet: [email protected]
>News Department, The Manitoban       |           [email protected]
 
As others have pointed out, the loss of one of the Russian probes is known
with relative certainty (a software/control error, as I recall). The other
more than likely failed due to a system fault of some sort. In a recent
status posting on MO in sci.space.news it was pointed out that MO and the
recently dead NOAA-13 both shared a primary oscillator which had previously
exhibited a severe failure mode. They fixed it on the NOAA craft before
launch, but apparently MO was already in route when the cause of the
trouble was finally pinned down to a faulty batch of transisters.
 
As for the "face" and the "pyramids", well, I happen to have a scan of
one of the photos. So, I took a look at it. A very close look. There are
a lot of what appear to be data artifacts (little dots) scattered around
the image, one of which just happened to fall in the place where one
might suspect a nostril to be on the so-called "face". The artifacts are
easily identified at the pixel level because their shading pattern is
fairly regular, whereas the "real" portions of the image exhibit a more
random distribution of shade levels, just as one would expect. Also, I
just roughed in the outline where the left eyesocket would seem to go for
a symetrical "face", and it didn't fit. Not even with view angle compen-
sation could I make it look right. Conclusion: the "face" is an unusual
pile of rocks that make interesting shadows at the right sun angle. As
for the "pyramids", well, I couldn't get anything more interesting than
a misshapen cone out the largest, and the smaller ones don't even look
close to being pyramids of any kind. Granted, what I have to work with
is a scan from a book, not real data, but it's a fairly good scan from
a book which is supposed to make a case for the "face", so I would
suspect that the image was contrast enhanced in some way to support
the author's bias. Besides, it only seemed fitting to use an image from
a "pro-face" work to do my own evaluation. ;-)
 
There are those who will always refuse to confront facts in favor of
the more colorful pseudo-reality of the imagination. Finding meaning
in coincidences in one way to do this. Facts are dull and mundane, and
may even require that one know some dull and mundane technical stuff
to understand them. When taking a flight of fancy all rules are subject
to change at whim, with no nitty-gritty technical stuff required or
necessary. Wishful thinking is one of the by-products we seem to have
gotten along with our ability to imagine alternatives.
 
This is all, of course, just my own humble opinion, with no ill-will
for anyone intended. I wish there were some Martians, but I can't let
myself succumb to a wish when there are so many facts to outweigh it.
If MO is dead, then it died on account of one of the things which so
often plague complicated hardware. I hope it isn't, and I _will_ hold
on to that wish until I know otherwise.
 
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|John M. Hughes    [email protected]   jmh%[email protected]|
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+


Article: 71149
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: Pete Banholzer <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Lunar 'anomaly'
Sender: [email protected] (Operator)
Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 93 15:51:13 EDT
 
In article <[email protected]> Bruce d. Scott,
[email protected] writes: 

>When a new grad student at Goddard Space Flight Center in 1980, I was
>amazed to find a book called "Someone Else is on the Moon". The thesis
>was that the "space boys" found alien bases there and came back "like a
>dog with its tail between its legs". (No joke, that's as near to a quote
>as 13-yr memory serves.) I'm sure you can find that book if you search
>enough libraries.
>
>There was another gem there, about a new calendar. The author would assert
>things like a 354-day year and then say "this is fact and not theory".
>He was a druidic of some sort and railed against the Catholic conspiracy
>to force an inaccurate calendar down all our throats.
 
The book indeed is Someone Else is on the Moon by George H. Leonard,
published by David KcKay Company. Inc. in 1976 , ISBN 0-679-50606-3. 
The idea is that there was a grand conspiracy by NASA to conceal
evidence of extensive "engi- neering on a massive scale, dwarfing
anything you've seen on Earth."  There are numerous drawings of
gigantic mining and excavating equipment (x-drones, control wheels,
sprayers, etc.) and patterns of excavations ("stiches", letters, and
so on).  A number of Ranger, Surveyor, and Apollo phtographs are
included, all with mystifying cations - "Manufactured objects and
vehicle are visible in Mare Tranquillitatis"  I certainly can't see
anything in that photo that corresponds to the caption.  This book
reminds me of a Lunar and Planetary Science Conference in Houston in
the late 1970s (?).  Some guy had gotten permission to set up a book
display in the lobby of the main auditorium.  His book was on "new"
explanations for a variety of geological phenomena.  One of the photos
purported to show a lunar rock (Surveyor 7 ?) that really was the
dessicated head of a dinosaur!  Yea, if you squinted, you could
imagine a crude similarity - it was elongated (the snout), there
appeared to be a fracture running parallel to the length of the
"snout" (the mouth), there was a more bulbous end (the head), with a
small depression for the eye socket.  I never found out how the
NASA/Johnson folks let him on base. 
 
I haven't seen the calendar book but I'll look for it.  We have a few
quirky items in the collection, including the Atlas of Middle Earth!. 
These were all added before my time. 
 
Pete Banholzer
Goddard Library

865.22When the NYT sided with Lowell's MarsVERGA::KLAESQuo vadimus?Tue Jan 11 1994 18:3747
Article: 81121
From: [email protected] (Charles Packer)
Newsgroups: alt.journalism,soc.history,sci.space,sci.skeptic
Subject: Gotham Rag Touts Martians!
Date: 11 Jan 1994 13:02:30 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Independence
 
The New York Times once took an editorial position in favor of there
being intelligent life on Mars. I learned this when a colleague who
knows my tastes passed along to me the .sig line of another net user
that quoted a Times headline of August 27, 1911: 
 
  Martians Build Two Immense Canals in Two Years
 
With the help of the Times's Index and microfilms of the appropriate
editions, I found out that between February and August, 1911, the
Times gave a generous amount of space to claims by Percival Lowell
that Mars was inhabited, including the full-page article of August 27,
illustrated with his drawings of the "canals." It was Lowell's belief
that the lines he saw on Mars during 1911 had lengthened since the
last favorable viewing period in 1909, and he concluded that this
represented Martian civil engineering prowess. 
 
The Times reported the opposing view in two small items. Robert D.
Aitken and, independently, Svante Arrhenius, challenged Percival's
view that the lines were canals, calling them fissures caused by the
Martian equivalent of earthquakes. 
 
The Times then published an editorial calling the opponents' criticism
"deplorable," in view of the fact that another astronomer from the
Naval Observatory had recently concluded that life must be abundant in
the universe. The editorial even charged Aitken and Arrhenius with a
"conspiracy" against "Lowell's admirably consistent theory." It concluded 
earnestly that for the time being, Lowell should be believed. 
 
I thought it was amusing how easily and casually journalists would
raise the cry of "conspiracy." Also, it would be interesting to locate
whatever papers, if any, were published in professional journals by
the protagonists at the time, and check out the extent to which the
Times's account of the debate oversimplified the full debate or not. 
 
At any rate, Times's coverage of this debate is an informative example
of how "bias" is manifested in the press. It can be appreciated by
anybody, regardless of political leanings, since the issue is hardly
important to us now. We're separated from it by plenty of time -- 83
years -- and, of course, space. 

865.23more fodder for the conspiracy theoristsAUSS::GARSONDECcharity Program OfficeSun Nov 17 1996 16:497
865.24It's not stranded now ...CHEFS::CLIFFEI&#039;ll warp my own space-time ...Mon Nov 18 1996 04:4369
865.25AUSS::GARSONDECcharity Program OfficeMon Nov 18 1996 16:4226
865.26skylab.zko.dec.com::FISHERGravity: Not just a good idea. It&#039;s the law!Tue Nov 19 1996 11:5926
865.27The amount of in those RTG's is insignificant...NETCAD::BATTERSBYTue Nov 19 1996 13:016