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Conference 7.286::space

Title:Space Exploration
Notice:Shuttle launch schedules, see Note 6
Moderator:PRAGMA::GRIFFIN
Created:Mon Feb 17 1986
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:974
Total number of notes:18843

587.0. "NOVA - The School Boys who cracked the Soviet Secret" by HYDRA::BIRO () Wed Dec 13 1989 09:35

 
Saw the "The School Boys Who Cracked The Soviet Secret" last
night (thats the new title was orignaly done as "Sputniks bleeps
and Mr Perry") I thoroughly enjoyed it. I didn't realize that 
GP was actually in it--really excellent show.  If you have not
seen it yet check and see when the PBS NOVA will be repeated
in your area.

john

    
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
587.1NH rebroadcastRENOIR::KLAESN = R*fgfpneflfifaLWed Dec 13 1989 12:015
    	The NOVA program will be repeated on New Hampshire's Channel 11
    this Thursday night at 8 pm.
    
    	Larry
    
587.2NovaHPSRAD::DZEKEVICHWed Dec 13 1989 13:006
    I also saw the Nova program - great show.  Especially since I am also a
    ham operator and operate via satellites.  The show demonstrated what
    can be done now in local classrooms.
    
    Joe
    
587.3some questions...ENGINE::PAULHUSChris @ MLO6B-2/T13 dtn 223-6871Fri Dec 15 1989 13:379
    	This show raised questions in my mind:  I'm familiar with some of
    the satelite tracking abilities of NORAD in Colorado Springs. The
    thought that a few $$ worth of ham gear could do things they couldn't
    just doesn't wash. Perhaps the problem is timing: Was NORAD doing this
    sort of work in the '60s?  Were their significant capabilities all put
    in place after the late '60s?  Was Perry's work just the first
    non-classified release of this info?  If so, kudos, but not such a big
    deal.   
    	I'd really like to understand this all better.  - Chris
587.4PlestskHYDRA::BIROFri Dec 15 1989 14:4235
    re 587.3
    
    One would assume it was the first non-classified release, but
    it would be interesting to check when NORAD type fuction started.
    
    'Guardians' by Curtis Peebles pge 228
    
    'Plestsk and its military launch were state secrets. Despite Plesetsk's
    discovery in 1966 by the Kettering group, the Soviets have never
    publicly acknowledge its existance'.  It goes on to talk about the
    UFO cover up stories etc
    
    GP is an intersting character, his observation seem perfectly logical
    and simple once stated - but getting to the conclusion is his gifted
    part.  I have sent GP many TLM reports that I have look over for
    weeks and with in a few hours GP would tell me what they meant.  I 
    could not figure out why I did not do it myself once GP told me. That is
    GP brilliant mental ability to look a  complex issue and look 
    for the simplicity in it.
    
    I would think the U.S. had knowledge of the site, they had
    been flyng U2 from 1956 to May Day 1960 because of the so called
    'missle gap' that extended from 1957 to 1961.   The Plesetsk launch
    site was used fo SS-6 ICBM facility so the U.S. would have know
    about the site.  At that time Tyuratam facility had only one pad and
    the Soviet space program was putting a burden on the Tyuratam facility.
    Plesetsk had two pads. Plestsk was a dual ICBM and space facility.  
    Thus it too should have been  knowed by the U.S. U2 survalance.  So I 
    think the U.S. knew of the site but I have  no idea if they had 
    determined that it was being used to launch satellies. 
     I will check some more on that however.
    
    john
    
    
587.5Some Answers & SpeculationVOSTOK::LEPAGECosmos---is my jobFri Dec 15 1989 14:5124
    Re:.3
    	NORAD was in existance and tracking satellites in the 60s. They did
    have a big advantage over Perry and the Kettering Group however because
    NORAD uses radar to track satellite while the Kettering group relied
    solely on receiving radio transmissions. If it didn't transmit, Kettering
    couldn't track it (unless they could see it visually just after sundown
    or just before sunrise).
    	As far as Perry being the first to discover the location of the
    Pletsk Cosmodrome it is possible. If the CIA and other intelligence
    agencies had no reason to think that there was another Soviet
    cosmodrome, they probably never bothered checking the orbits of new
    satellites to find it. Even at this point in time, the Soviets had
    launched hundreds of satellites mostly from the Baikonour Cosmodrome
    (and also a few from the missle range at Kapustin Yar Cosmodrome). It
    is possible that the Western inteligence agencies weren't expecting
    a third site.
    	Then again, the CIA et. al. could have known about the new
    cosmodrome and (as usual) kept it secret. In which case Perry was the
    first person not involved with intelligence (so to speak) to find the
    new site. Whichever is the case, it was still a truly remarkable bit of
    detective work considering the relatively primitive equipment used.
    
    	      			Drew
    
587.6BOSHOG::SCHWARTZIn Elder days, before the fallTue Dec 19 1989 18:0011
    My father helped fly intel birds (satellites) in the early 60s -
    they were not as sophisticated as you think! Even the photo satellites
    were not that good, were expensive, and were used on volatile targets.
    Few if any were real-time satellites.
    
    Most of NORAD's info came from ground-based radar, which were watching
    the horizon, not Soviet cosmodromes. It wasn't their main job to
    search for such places.
    
    
    						-**Ted**-
587.7Kettering Group Scoops Soviet Landing Sites in U.S.LEVERS::HUGHESTANSTAAFLMon Jul 22 1991 17:31154
    Copied without permision from 
    Aviation Week and Space Technology/July 22,1991 p. 22
    
    [Look for John Biro's name about 3/4 through.  MH]
    
    SOVIET COSMONAUTS PLAN DAILY FOR U.S. EMERGENCY LANDINGS
    
    James R. Asker/Washington
    
    Orbiting Soviet cosmonauts receive daily instructions for emergency
    landings in the midwestern Uneted States according to an analysis of
    crew radio transmissions.
    
    The Soviet contingency plans apparently extend at least from 1975 and
    show a willingness to bring cosmonauts down in U.S. territory on short
    notice, even through some of the chilliest years of the Cold War.
    
    Today, flight directors in the Soviet mission control center in
    suburban Moscow relay data to the crew on board the Mir space station
    for landing their Soyuz transport spacecraft at three sites, according
    to British analyst Geoffery Perry.
    
    Besides the primary recovery area in the Soviet Republic of Kazakhstan,
    contingency landings are plottd for the Sea of Okhotsk, off the east
    coast of the Soviet Union, and in the north-central plains of the U.S.
    
    For the one or two orbits a day that do not traverse any of those
    areas, data are offered  for landing in Europe.
    
    Perry analyzed data as far back as the 1975 joint U.S.-Soviet manned
    mission, called the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project. The data were gathered
    by the Kettering Group,an independent network of observers who have
    successfully tracked Soviet space flights for more than 30 years.
    
    Flight controllers routinely relay contingency landing opportunities to
    all manned spacecraft and the possibility of cosmonauts urgently
    leaving space and landing in the U.S. might be presumed from ground
    tracks of Mir. However, the specific Soviet plans have not been
    previously disclosed.
    
    Althought they said the possibility of cosmonauts landing in the U.S.
    is remote, Soviet space officials told Aviation Week & Space Technology
    they do calculate such reentries and relay tehem to their flight crews.
    
    NASA officials said they knew of no formal notification by the Soviets
    of such a possibility. But they noted that both nations are among those
    who signed a 1968 treaty pledging to help rescue and return astronauts.
    
    American students of Soviet space programs said they wre unaware of the
    cosmonauts' emergency landing plans but said they found them prudent.
    
    Retired USAF Lt. Gen Thomas P. Stafford, the commander of the Apollo
    spacecraft that docked with a Soyuz spacecraft for two days, said he
    knew of no contingency plans the cosmonauts had to land in the U.S.
    However, Stafford pointed out the Soyuz spacecraft which reenters as a
    ballistic vehicle and descends by parachute, is capable of landing on a
    wide variety of terrain and in water.
    
    Perry, who coordinates the group of a dozen volunteers around the world
    from his home in Bude, Cornwall, England, plans to detail his
    conclusions in a paper to be presented July 27 at a colloquium of radio
    amateurs, Amsat-U.K., meeting at the University of Surrey at Guildford.
    
    The Soviets' contingency landing site in the U.S. is a broad section of
    the American heartland from about 90 deg. to 105 deg. W. Long. and 42
    deg. to 49 deg. N. Lat. -- an area covering North Dakota, South Dakota
    and Minnesota; much of Nebraska, Iowa and Wisconsin, and parts of
    Illinois, Montana and Wyoming. Some trajectories would bring Soviet
    manned spacecraft down as far south as Kansas City, Perry said.
    
    Nowhere Near Soviet Union
    -------------------------
    Typically, opportunities to land in the U.S. area present themselves
    for fout orbits in succession. The Mir space stations orbit is inclined
    51.6 deg. to the equator, taking it over much of the Earth's surface.
    But for those four orbits, lasting 6 hr., the spacecraft passes
    nowhere near the Soviet Union.
    
    The Soviets apparently believe their chances of recovering cosmonauts
    and spacecraft are better following an emergency landing in the flat
    north-central U.S. than in the other areas on the ground track of those
    orbits -- central Africa, sparsely populated Australia or the North
    Atlantic or Indian oceans.
    
    Nicholas L. Johnson, a scientist who follows Soviet space programs for
    Teledyne Brown Engineering, said of the planning for U.S. landings,
    "Clearly, its a prudent thing for the Soviets to do."
    
    James E. Oberg, a NASA engineer who has written extensively about
    Soviet space efforts, said the contingency plans "sound reasonable,"
    but he said it would be unwise for the Soviets not to discuss the
    eventuality with U.S. officials long before an emergency arose.
    
    Although Soyuz landings are usually so precise ground crews use trucks
    instead of helicopters to meet the cosmonauts, the Soviets take
    precautions such as turning off high-power electrical lines before
    landings, Oberg said.
    
    Oberg also sees the Soviet plans for U.S. landings as a warning to
    spacecraft designers. He said, "It's sobering realization that after
    all that experience, they don't feel they have a safe haven on the
    space station."
    
    Johnson and Perry said they disagree that the contingency landing plans
    indicate any lack of confidence in Mir or Soyuz.
    
    Perry traces the Ketterings Group's discovery of the Soviets' U.S.
    emergency landing plans to a transmission from comonauts in Soyuz 33
    recorded by Mark Severance in Ft. Worth, Tex., on Apr. 11 1979. The
    crew repeated a list of orbits times and landing angles. But the data
    were baffling, since only two sets of numbers seemed to indicate
    landings in Kazakhstan.
    
    Years later, a senior cosmonaut told another member, Sven Grahn that
    the landing angle, or "ugol pasadka" in Russian, could be considered "
    the argument of retrofire," or the angle subtended at the Earth's
    center by the arc of the orbit between retrofire and the landing point.
    
    Perry recognized similar numbers in a transcript from Mir transmissions
    of Jan 25 and May 27, 1988 recorded by John Biro of Chelmsford, Mass.
    Grahn reminded Perry about NASA transcripts from Apollo-Soyuz and they
    found indications of contingencies for landing in the U.S. Midwest and
    in the Picardy region of France.
    
    The Kettering Group is named after the British grammer school at which
    Perry once taught. Twenty-five years ago, Perry and his students, using
    simple equipment, deduced the location of the then-secret third Soviet
    launch site at Plesetsk, in northwest Russia. (AW&ST Dec. 19, 1966,
    p.19).
    
    The group remains amateur in that it is an association of volunteers.
    However many members are professionals. For example, Severance, a
    student in 1979, now works in NASA manned mission operations at the
    Johnson Space Center, in Houston.
    
    The U.S. also has identified emergency landing sites for its space
    shuttle orbiters. On every ascent to orbit, at least two landing sites
    across the Atlantic Ocean are staffed by NASA personnel. The abort
    landing sites, for which the U.S. has negotiated agreements, are in
    Spain, Morocco and the Gambia, on the west coast of Africa.
    
    In its planning for contingency landings once an orbiter is in space,
    NASA prefers first a return to Edwards AFB, the Kennedy Space Center of
    White Sands, N.M., then other runways on U.S. territory, then U.S. air
    bases, and finally foreign facilities.
    
    Informal agreements exist with about a dozen nations to cover such
    emergencies, according to John Sakss, NASA's deputy chief of
    international planning and programs. Occasionally, in messges sent up
    to U.S. astronauts at the begining of each work day in orbit, they are
    advised that certain landing sites have been ruled out for "political
    reasons."
    
    Mike H
587.8U.S. does it tooSAUTER::SAUTERJohn SauterMon Jul 29 1991 10:299
    If I remember correctly, there were contingency plans for John Glenn's
    first orbital flight landing in the People's Republic of China.  We
    weren't on very good terms with them at that time, so it was said that
    if Glenn was forced down in the PRC our people would move to their
    borders and stop.  There was concern that an American carrying cameras
    who arrived without permission in the PRC would be killed.
    
    This was in 1961, and much has changed since then.
        John Sauter