Conference 7.286::space

>    "Keep Mars from turning red"
    
Great one.  A jingoistic masterpiece.  Has the money-gathering ring of 
hate to it.  How about "Keep space AMERICAN like God, JFK and Elvis 
intended"?

No one wants a whimpy slogan like, "No one country can afford it.", 
"We're all on this planet together" or "Let's join our monies, our 
resources and our greatest minds."  People who think like that will go 
up against the wall with the other whimpoids who say "Why spend the 
money on Mars when Earth is such a mess?"

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Well, .1 shows a good attitude, if not an equally naive one.  Yes,
    the sort of slogan advanced in .0 does do much to help in the global
    scheme of peace, love and brotherhood.  From there, reality creeps
    in.
    
    First, you can damn well bet that as hard as we try, it's gonna
    be a real long time before the US and the USSR learn to get along
    together.  Being a somewhat optimistic sort myself, I feel that
    it's sort of inevitable, but not something that'll happen in my
    lifetime.
    
    Second, if we put everything on hold, and wait around for everyone
    to learn how to live with each other, we're not going to have any
    space program at all.
    
    Third, until we learn to live together, there isn't much possibility
    for a join space program that goes beyond such public relations
    stunts such as Apollo-Soyuz.  Face it, there's always going to be
    some sort of sabre rattling, or untimely invasion of a helpless
    third world country (from both sides) to keep the other one good
    and pissed off.  With this sort of crap going on, what congressman
    is going to vote for some bill to send "our guys" up with "their
    guys", when the public perception is going to be that "their guys"
    are just there to take pictures of all our secret stuff (and vice
    versa), even if the can was made by "them"?  Just about the time
    we get settled down (off the national high horse), we'll no doubt
    do something that really rips them.  Like I said:  It'll be a while
    before we learn to get along well.  (we have a hard enough time
    with our allies)

    Fourth, we can flail away at ourselves with whips and chains and
    revel in our own self disgust that we're going to be using the Shuttle
    and space station for military purposes, but in the mean time, the
    Soviet government will be quietly, happily, and proudly be doing
    the same thing, only on a larger scale.  With balance of power being
    an unfortunate necessity in the forseeable future, this seems to
    be something that at least deserves attention.
    
    Considering the extreme difficulty the space lobby is having getting
    any funding for anything, we have to face up to these limitations.
    Sure, it's counterproductive to base our entire space program on
    commie baiting, but it's equally counterproductive to base our entire
    space program on $0.
    
    We have to come up with some sort of idea that'll motivate the masses
    into supporting a space program, because that's the constraints
    of a democracy.  Are the slogans suggested in .0 the best thing?
    Maybe not, but that's probably why he was looking for suggestions.
    Even if those were used, I'd expect the average person would shout
    the slogan with Rambolike pride, then go home and watch Donahue
    on satellite link with the USSR, and agree with everything Donahue
    says when he happily repeats all the Soviet propoganda.

    Until we and the Soviets are buddies, space is their domain, and
    if we sit around and ignore it long enough, there won't be any room
    left for us in the immediate vacinity.

    RE: .1
    
    You don't like my ideas?
    
    What do you suggest?
    
    I'm serious and sincere.  What would be a better approach?
    
    I would, however, prefer constructive and positive input.
    
    Tom

    	He who conquers space conquers the world!  :^)
    
    	Larry
    

Personally, I think manned space flight is a waste of time and money at 
present.  So I'm not particularly interested in seeing a campaign that 
sucessfully has us (the masses) paying for another fantasy.  On the 
other hand, if you think chanting slogans at the back of a political rally 
is going to change the way the world spends, I guess I don't really have 
to worry about it.

If you're serious about sending someone to Mars, though, you'd probably
be a lot better off joining your forces (there's that damn cooperation
again) with a larger society that favors manned space missions and
pushing for aligning with ESA, Canada, South America, Japan, whoever
might be willing to pull with you.   I'm not starry-eyed at all.  I
don't think we'll join up with the Russians in any reasonable time
frame.  It's too important to keep someone to hate. But you don't need 
Russians to get to Mars; you need money and brains.  More than any one 
country is willing to provide at the moment.  

As for political rallies; until the public relations groundwork has been
laid, you'd just be painted as a bunch of Star Trek infatuated nerds
trying to increase the national debt.  The time isn't right for
screamers.  You need people who lobby, write letters and deal with the
media. Are there no groups that already favor manned space flight?  
Maybe you could start one.  But you don't want to start one if one 
already exists, since you'll just water down its efforts.

Movies and novels make it seem like it's possible to just go to a rally 
and start screaming and change things.  But reality demands more than 
just passing fancy on your part.  You have to be willing to work very 
hard for a long period of time to get what you want.  It takes long, 
slow pressure to turn something as massive as public opinion.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    	WHY do you think s the space program is a waste of time and
    money?  Let me state one thing right now - to say that I disagree
    with that opinion is the understatement of the century!
                                 
    	Larry
    

    re .6
    
    .5 said he thought manned spaceflight is currently a waste of money.
    It is difficult to justify manned spaceflight on other than the
    'destiny of mankind' type of argument. Most of the arguments used
    to support the space program (technology spinoffs, comsats, metsats,
    etc) are not intrinsically related to manned spaceflight. Most of
    the space science stuff does not require manned presence.
    
    The most striking arguments for manned spaceflight are probably
    the repair of Solar Max and the comsat retreivals. There are other
    examples where the local presence of human ingenuity saved a
    mission/experiment but these don't stick in people's minds.
    
    Some of the post Challenger arguments about non essential flight
    personnel don't help the cause either.
    
    Oddly enough, manned spaceflight would be easier to justify if computer
    technology had not progressed so far in the last decade or two.
    
    gary

>    The most striking arguments for manned spaceflight are probably
>    the repair of Solar Max and the comsat retreivals. 

And even if we grant these exceptions, we don't need people going to other 
planets yet.  Adding people means you can't stay as long, and you have 
to expend money and time designing environments that will support human 
life there and back.  Much better to survey the area first and see if 
it's worth the effort of sending someone later.  If a probe finds
somthing worth having on Mars, then there'll be no trouble getting
the public to back a mission.  
					>>>==>PStJTT

    
    		"Lets give
    
    			SPACE TO OUR CHILDREN"

    	"The Universe, or nothing!"
    
    	Larry
    

    When this challange started as a respone to another note I was 
    thinking in terms of a line such as Star Trek's "Where no man 
    has gone before".  Or the Appolo challange that placed men on the
    moon.  Both of these messages have the property of being able to
    spur the imagination without the use of fear or fear of failure.
    They were stated within themselves and for there own purpose.  It
    is for this reason that I personally do not like the Red Mars 
    immagery because it smacks of the space race, and a final doneness
    that occured when we were first to place men on the moon, has left
    us second in the hardware race for the space station etc.  The shuttle
    should have left us in some better position by the end of last year
    for the cultural readyness of a new space challange, but I feel
    the need for a politically pure and idealistic slogan has never
    been greater since Challanger.  To fly shuttles again is not enough.
    
    Mans mind limits the Universe, and his access to The Universe, not
    the political structure or cultural finance.  If I could find some
    word-smith to hammer this idea into a "trippy phrase" I would run
    this on my banner held high to my congress person in a heart beat.
    

    	"No bucks, no Buck Rogers!"
    

    		There's nowhere else to grow

    
    	(let's)
    
    	Do Something Great