Conference 7.286::space

Challenger II

    AQUARIUS   (the efficient Apollo 13 life-boat.)
    

    	CHALLENGER-A
    
    	Larry
    

    CHALLENGER !
    ----------

    	For now, the new Space Shuttle currently being built is designated
    OV-105, but I'm sure NASA will get a more aesthetically pleasing
    name.
    
    	Perhaps it should be called THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN.
    
    	Larry
    

    Challenger was also vehicle 105.  The current data processing systems
    in NASA will view the new vehicle as Challenger, not that it matters
    a lot.
    
    Given that the new vehicle will have the same number, it seems that
    NASA may be leaning toward keeping the old name in some form.
    
    Trivially yours,
    
    Don

I thought that Challenger was OV-099, not 105.
I have the following information:

Orbiter
Number           Name
-------          ------------
OV-099           Challenger
OV-101           Enterprise
OV-102           Columbia
OV-103           Discovery
OV-104           Atlantis

From this it would make sense that the new orbiter would be
OV-105.  Does anyone know why there is no OV-100?  (or why there
is no 1 through 98?)

        .7 matches the list I have in the "Space Shuttle Operator's
        Manual". Before they canceled a fifth orbiter several years back
        didn't it have a name and number (OV-105)? If so, I would suppose
        they would use that same name.
        
        As to naming the replacement Challenger or Challenger-II, is there
        any precedent for this in US history? Clearly ships are named
        after other famous ships of the past, but has any ship that was
        lost in battle been replaced with an equivalent ship of the same
        name? 

    My data came from working at the orbiter processing facility but
    could be faulty given that it was several months ago.
    
    We were going over the data base requirements for the vehicles and
    the Lockheed people gave us the numbers at that time.  I remember
    thinking at the time how convenient it was that Challenger was at
    the end so that the data base wouldn't have any holes.
    
    Sounds like my memory was faulty and that I had the wrong end.
    
    Hardly perfect,
    
    Don

  RE .8

  During WWII, names of carriers were reused often after a carrier
was lost.

  After the Lexington (CV2) was lost at Coral Sea during WWII, a new
Essex class carrier was renamed Lexington. I think it was CV12 which
made it through WWII, Korea, Nam, and was used as a pickup ship during
Gemini and Appolo.

  There was a Langley about CV16 named after Langley (CV1) which was sunk
in the Java Sea early 1942. There was a new carrier Yorktown named after the
Yorktown (CV5) sunk an Midway, a new Hornet named after the Hornet (CV7)
sunk at Santa Cruze(sp?) and a new Wasp named after the Wasp (CV8) sunk at
Gautal(sp?) Canal.

  RE OV-99

  I heard once that the Challanger was originally built for stress tests.
That may be why it had the unusual number. If that is true, I wonder if
weakness from earlier stress tests had anything to do with why it broke up
so quickly?

  George

    Re: .10
    
    No offense, but I think it broke up quickly primarily because of
    the half-million gallons of liquid hydrogen and oxygen that exploded
    under its belly...
    
    Coming up on a very sad anniversary,
    
    - dave

  RE .11

    One theory that I say in AWST was that during the explosion of the
external tank the back blew out 1st and the energy was forward. The
orbiter may have survived this. It was probably when the orbiter turned
sideways that it broke up due to aerodynamic pressure.

    I saw one picture of the orbiter after the explosion. The Tank was
gone and the wings were gone but the rest was still in one section. The
Engines were going through an oxygen rich shutdown and it seemed to be
turning sideways. It was clear that the fuselage survived the explosion
but it was not clear when the wings had come off.

    George

How about Challenger 7?  It's still Challenger, it honors the Seven, and
Star Trek Fans will love it to boot! (Okay, so it's not the name of an
astronomer, but we can't always be purists! ;^)  Seriously, I do want the
Seven to be commemorated somehow in the name of the new shuttle.

	Thanks,

	 /~~'\
	W o o k
	(  ^  )
	 \`-'/
	  \_/

>Seriously, I do want the
>Seven to be commemorated somehow in the name of the new shuttle.

That's extremely unlikely.
As was noted above, the names of the crafts are reused without
even enumeration, so I won't even get my "Challenger II" into consideration.
Someday we might have the intra-lunar system tug "Virgil I. Grissom"
or the geosynchronous maintenance vessel "Judith A. Resnick",
but protocol advises against commemoration of events.

Astronomers?  Shuttles are named after oceanographic research vessels.

- tom]

> protocol advises against commemoration of events.

What about the aircraft carriers Coral Sea and Lexington?  There is also a
Navy ship named the Guadalcanal, I believe (troopship or hellicopter carrier?).

> Shuttles are named after oceanographic research vessels.

Is this true?  Were there research vessels named Challenger, Enterprise, and
Columbia?

    	In the MERCURY Program, the spacecraft were designated with
    7 after their names (FREEDOM 7, FRIENDSHIP 7, SIGMA 7, etc.).  
    
    	I realize this was done because there were seven astronauts
    in the program, but I wanted to show that such designations have
    been used.                             
         
    	Larry
    

    re an earlier note about serial numbers.  For some odd reason, the
    first of a production run is NEVER serial number 1.  For example,
    the PDP-11/40 series started with either 100 or 101 (I'm pretty
    sure).  In any case, I assume this is why they named the first airframe
    101.  Challenger was indeed refurbished from some sort of test article.
    For some reason which I don't yet understand it was cheaper to
    refurbish the test article than to build a new orbiter, but it was
    cheaper to build a new orbiter than to refurbish Enterprise.  Brought
    to you through the magic of bean counting.
    
    Burns

re .-1
>   re an earlier note about serial numbers.  For some odd reason, the
>   first of a production run is NEVER serial number 1.  For example,
>   the PDP-11/40 series started with either 100 or 101 (I'm pretty
>   sure).  In any case, I assume this is why they named the first airframe

Really? What about pdp6 #1, or pdp1 #1?

	-SES

The following is from a short biography of Robert A. Frosch,
who was NASA administrator from 1977 to 1980:

It was during Frosch's time, too, that the shuttles were named, and
it can be guessed that his ocean science background had no small
influence:  "What happened was that before NASA had a chance to
name the Enterprise, the Enterprise got named by the Star Trek 
groupies.  There was an uneasy feeling that unless we made a name
rule of some kind, each name would be at the mercy of whatever was
in vogue at the time.  So we consciously decided to have a rule for
naming the shuttles.  And, we looked around, and said, 'since it
is intended for exploration, how about great exploring ships?
We'll get a list.'  And so, we produced a list awfully fast, as I
recall -- a long list of great ocean-exploring ships.  We chose off
that list.  I guess in the end, I picked, off the list, the names
for the first five."

Footnote:  The space shuttles -- Enterprise, Columbia, Challenger,
Discovery, and Atlantis -- are named for ocean-going ships of
discovery.  The prototype shuttle Enterprise was the name of a
ship used to explore the Arctic in the 1850s (there is some
question, however, whether in fact this is the vessel after which
the orbiter was named).  The Columbia was the ship after which the
Columbia River was named, and also the name of the first U.S. Navy
vessel to circumnavigate the globe.  Challenger takes its name from
the British oceanographic vessel that spent nearly four years 
circumnavigating the globe and doing oceanographic sampling in the
1870s.  Ships named Discovery have been numerous.  One explored
Canada's Hudson Bay and searched for the Northwest Passage in
1610-1611.  Another discovered the Hawaiian Islands and explored
the coast of Alaska and western Canada.  Two British ships with the
name worked in the Antarctic early in the 20th century.  Atlantis,
research vessel of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution from
1931 to 1966, sailed nearly a half million miles on nearly 300
scientific voyages.

    re .18:  Would you accept ALMOST never?
    
    re .19:  How about BEAGLE?  I suppose that would never pass given
    the fundamentalist leanings of the administration.
    
    Burns
    

    Re; .19
    
    Columbia was also the name of the Apollo 11 command module.

    I remember it being said during the Apollo 11 flight that the CSM
    Columbia was actually named for the spacecraft in Jules Verne's
    novel about flying to the moon.  (FROM EARTH TO THE MOON or something
    like that?).  I think that Verne's spacecraft was actually Columbiad,
    though.
    
    Burns
    

    	You are correct - Jules Verne's spacecraft was called the
    COLUMBIAD, but "they" felt it was close enough to COLUMBIA to make
    the connection.
    
    	Larry
    

The explanation about DEC serial numbers is reasonably simple from
my experience (with things like the Micro PDP-11 and DECtalk and the PRO)
and may well apply to NASA also.

In order to keep track of prototypes in the engineering part (and field
test) of a project, the protos are all given standard type serial numbers,
usualy starting at a low number like 1.

When the product is transferred to mfg., the serial numbers are bumped to
100 or 1000 so that they aren't confused with the prototypes.

Various parts and test mockups may have the OV-xxx low numbers.

							-Brian

    And, of course, Discovery was the name of the ship that explored
    "Jupiter and Beyond". :-)
    
    --- jerry

    In the 70's NASA had a Convair 990 named the Galileo, located at
    Ames Research Center. It was used as a flying testbed for a variety
    of scientific experiments. This particular aircraft was destroyed
    when it landed on top of another plane, with all hands lost. NASA
    replaced the plane and named it the Galileo II. I have flown radar
    experiments aboard it and saw the memorial to the lost crew. This
    second 990 was destroyed during the last year when a landing gear
    rammed up through the wing. I had a lot of friends on board and
    fortunately all were able to scramble out the non-burning side.
    The comment I heard was that was the last of the "Galileos".
    
    They picked the 990 by the way because it is one of the few 4 engined
    jets that is certified to fly upside down, as in a hurricane for
    example. A note on doing backups... my buddies from the Jet Lab
    told me that their experiments were on board, including spares and
    all of the current docs, when the Galileo II crashed. They had to
    scrape together plans and mods over many months to recover.
         

    	It's ironic that there was a shuttle named GALILEO onboard 
    the starship ENTERPRISE of STAR TREK fame, which had a tendancy 
    for bad luck.  When it was lost in one episode, they built another 
    named GALILEO II, which also got the main characters in trouble.
    
    	Larry
    

Re .27:

Actually, wasn't the original shuttle was called the Galileo 7?  I'd be
much more strident about this if I wasn't suspicious that "[The] Galileo 7"
was only the episode's title.  Also, I never heard the replacement called
Galileo II.
				/AHM

    Re: .26,.27
    
    This is not the Star Trek conference, please lets not have it
    go that route.  Take this discussion elsewhere.  I like Star Trek,
    but this is not the place.
    
    	       			     		The Moderator
    
    p.s. I must have eaten Moderator Oats for breakfast!  I feel 
         particularly vicous today!  (It was the astrology in astronomy
         that must have triggered it!)  :-)

    Alan,
    
    You are correct "The Galileo 7" Is the name of the episode, Galileo
    was the name of the shuttle.
    
    				_AJR

    A photo caption in Tuesday's Chicago Tribune says that there is
    a "Challenger 7 Elementary School" in Port St. John, Flordia near
    KSC.  I assume the school was (re?)named in the last year.  This
    item may be of interest to those who have proposed names in this
    note.

    I don't know about floridia but there is one here in Colorado Springs
    Named for the Challenger.
    
    
                                              Jack

    	I've noticed a small but growing number of Science Fiction and
    future histories conjectures which are naming spacecraft after the
    CHALLENGER crew - for example, in Arthur C. Clarke's JULY 20, 2019,
    there is a spacecraft named CHRISTA.
    
    	I suspect this really will happen in the future.
    
    	Larry
    

    I believe the Challenger 7 school that you refer to in FL was under
    construction at the time of the accident.
    
    Burns
    

    
    	I read in SPACE WORLD, do believe it was Apr or May, that NASA
    decided on the name of the new shuttle (OV-105).  Fittingly, it
    will be named the PHOENIX.
    
    	And the name will reflect the purpose of the new shuttle most
    on its first launch, rising from the ashes of its predecessor as
    a flame.
    
    

    I read in the paper two days ago that NASA had decided to hold a
    contest to let school kids name the replacement for Challenger.
    I believe the contest is supposed to run during 1988.  Not sure
    what the prize for the winner will be, the article was somewhat
    sketchy.
    

I hope they choose 'Phoenix'.

    
    	I like PHOENIX to.  It fits better than any other I have heard,
    but this is just an opinion.
    
    

My two cents worth:

I don't like the name "Phoenix" for the new shuttle because:

1.	We should never forget Challenger and the men and women who died in
	the accident because we cannot allow such an accident to happen again.  
	However, I feel that the name "Phoenix" is a bit too morbid a reminder.
	Watching a vehicle of that name launched would bring back painful
	memories.  Painful memories are best replaced by a increased 
	vigilance and dedication toward the goals of building and maintaining
	a safer shuttle.

2.	The mythical Phoenix bird which is reborn from the ashes is a "carbon
	copy" of its predecessor.  It too will be consumed by flame and reborn.
	There is no evolution in this myth, but an endless cycle of flame,
	death and rebirth.  Naming the new shuttle "Phoenix" would imply that
	we have merely built a replacement from the old plans, a replacement
	with the same flaws, a replacement destined to die in flame.



BTW, in Greek myth, Phoenix was also the name of the tutor of Achilles.  His
eyes were put out by his father, Amyntor, because Phoenix had seduced his
father's concubine at the persuasion of his mother.  But his sight was restored
by the Centaur Cheiron.  Phoenix fought in the Trojan war but died on the
journey home.

    	I was also under the impression that Space Shuttles were only
    supposed to be named after scientific oceanographic vessels.
    
    	I agree with your reasons for NOT wanting PHOENIX in #2.  
    
    	Larry
    

    re .39
    
    	>we have merely built a replacement from the old plans, a replacement
	>with the same flaws, a replacement destined to die in flame.

    An undesirable connotation, but accurate. The shuttle's failure
    modes are so compromised that it is very likely that another one
    will be lost in the next decade. The shuttle relies upon everything
    working 100% in the first 4-5 minutes of flight. There is basically
    no margin until it gets to the point of having two engine abort
    to orbit capability.
    
    gary

Please, not 'Phoenix'

Everything in .39 is right; too morbid, too pessimistic, not forward 
thinking, it's also too much a cliche.
There's no glory in it.

I think 'Challenger II' is an adequtae name, but I'd be happy to see
something even more forward thinking and ambitious.

- tom]

Well, I still think 'Phoenix' is MORE than appropriate.  I think it's 
something to consider in reminding some of these contractors just why they 
have a new shuttle to build.  Let's face it.  The shuttle IS trying to rise 
out of it's own ashes.

No sense is sugar-coating it.  Maybe it's a little painful [I know it is 
for me] but I think it is important that we don't get so overconfident 
again.

Never forget...

BTW, as far as mythological references go, Phoenixes lasted for eons.

    
    What about Defiant. A passionate response to the despondancy caused
    by the Challanger disaster. Incidentally, the root word of Defiant,
    defi means challange.
    

    I mentioned this topic to my wife yesterday (and the "restriction"
    that the name must be that of a oceanographic research vessel.
    
    Her suggestion was "Calypso" (Jacques Cousteau's ship).  While I
    admit the name doesn't have the grandeur one would expect, I can
    hear John Denver's song running in the back of my mind:
    
    	" . . . Calypso, the places you've been, . . . "
    
    (Wish I had the entire song lyrics, it would probably be interesting
    to see if the whole song "fits" like the phrase above.)
    

    Phoenix would probably be the best name for the replacement Orbiter.
    A bit of U.S. Space history though: Wally Schirra wanted to name
    the CSM of Apollo 8 "Phoenix" in honor of the Apollo 1 crew.
    However, Nasa rejected this flat out.
    
    Maybe Nasa will allow the name this time.
    
    tj
    

    I beleive that it *was* Apollo 8, but your reply title calls
    out Apollo 13 (which one is the typo?)
    jim
    

    Oops!  That should read VIII not XIII.  I stand corrected. Thanks.
    
    tom
    

        Re: the last couple
        
        An interesting slip of the fingers, as Apollo XIII almost did
        become an inflight Phoenix. As you may recall, that was the flight
        that had an SM explosion on the way to the moon. Without the quick
        thinking by the folks on the ground, that could have easilly
        become the first loss of a US crew inflight. 
        
        Are you sure it was Apollo 8 that Schirra tried to name Phoenix.
        He was the commander of Apollo 7. Apollo 8 was Borman, Lovell, &
        Anders flight around the moon in December, 1968. It has always
        been the actual mission crew that named the flight, or in the case
        of the shuttle, at least got to design the patch. 

    	Correct! It is Apollo 7. That was a dumb mistake on my part.
    
    	If it weren't for Apollo 7, we wouldn't have Wally on TV
    	doing Actifed commercials. I think the whole crew came 
    	down with a cold. I'm not sure, but I think this made
    	Nasa re-think their pre-flight astronaut isolation policy.
    
    	Speaking of illness, who was the astronaut that got scrubbed
    	from Apollo 13 (pretty sure it was 13) because of measles?
    

        As long as we are playing trivia (does that conference still
        exist?), the lucky illness belonged to Ken Mattingly. Conviently
        enough, Apollo 13 patch did not have the names of the crew on it.
        It may have been the only Apollo mission that didn't list the crew
        names. Must have been forsight. The Apollo procedure was to only
        replace the ill crew member, back in Gemini days they would have
        gone to the entire backup crew if this had happened. I don't have
        my list handy (it may be in a previous note), but I think Ken got
        to fly one of the later Apollo flights, and he also flew at least
        one Shuttle flight. 
        
        Next trivia question: What other astronauts lost flight status for
        medical reasons, and later returned to flight status? 

    Deke Slayton lost flight status before his Mercury flight due to
    a 'heart murmur' and did not regain it until the early 70's, in
    time to fly on ASTP.
    
    gary

    	APOLLO 11 also did not have the names of the astronaut crew
    on the patch, as they felt it would be unfair not to mention the
    thousands of others who contributed to the historic mission.
    
    	The TRIVIA Conference is now at ILAVU::TRIVIA.  Press KP7 or
    SELECT to add it to your Notebook.
    
    	Larry
    

    Al Sheppard (sp), the first U.S. Astronaut to fly, lost flight status
    because of some ear problem.  He was restored and finally flew on
    Apollo XIV.
    
    Mike Collins also lost flight status.  I don't remember his problem,
    but it was surgically corrected.  I also don't know if this was
    between his Gemini flight and Apollo XI, or before Gemini.
    
    Burns
    

From: [email protected] (Eugene N. Miya)
Newsgroups: sci.space.shuttle
Date: 30 Mar 88 17:57:36 GMT
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif.
 
    Subject: SHUTTLE ORBITER-NAMING COMPETITION ANNOUNCED
    Cynthia Buck
    NASA Headquarters, Washington, D.C.
    (Phone:  202/453-8400)                             March 30, 1988
 
    Jay P. Goldman
    Council of Chief State School Officers
    (Phone:  202/393-8161)
 
    RELEASE:  88-46
 
    SHUTTLE ORBITER-NAMING COMPETITION ANNOUNCED
  
    The National Aeronautics and Space Administration in cooperation
with the Council of Chief State School Officers (CCSSO) today issued
the announcement of opportunity for America's students to participate
in a national competition to name NASA's replacement Space Shuttle
orbiter, scheduled to make its premiere flight in early 1992. 
 
    The announcement invites teachers to enter their students in the
orbiter-naming competition and provides an order form for obtaining an
entry packet.  Entry packets with instructions, describing competition
rules and judging criteria, will be available in early May. 
 
    The new orbiter, designated OV 105, is under construction by
Rockwell International in California and is scheduled for completion
in April 1991. 
 
    The announcement states, "The Orbiter-Naming Program responds to a
basic human impulse to name things...NASA's first orbiters were
named after sea vessels used in research and exploration...The
tradition of naming an orbiter after an exploratory or research sea
vessel will be continued with OV 105." 
 
    The name chosen should not only identify an American spacecraft
but also should capture the spirit of America's mission in space.  In
honor of the seven crew members lost in the CHALLENGER accident, the
name CHALLENGER has been retired. 
   
    To enter, elementary and secondary school students will form teams
and research a name.  Each team will prepare a related classroom
project to support and justify the name selected. 
 
    The team's project must be interdisciplinary and may serve as a
pilot project for future classroom activities.  Orbiter-naming
projects are to be completed during the 1988 fall semester, and
entries must be postmarked by Dec. 31, 1988. 
 
    Each team will have a coordinator who must be a member of the
school faculty and will be responsible for directing the team's
activities and submitting the official program entry packet for judging. 
 
    There will be two entry divisions:  Division one will include
kindergarten through 6th grade and Division two 7th through 12th grade. 
 
    Students in public and private schools in the United States and
U.S. territories, Department of Defense overseas dependents' schools,
Department of State schools and Bureau of Indian Affairs schools are
eligible to participate. 
 
    Each state, territory and agency will announce one winner in each
division in March 1989.  NASA will announce the final winner from each
division and the name selected for the orbiter in May 1989. 
 
    Each entry will receive recognition for the team's participation. 
State, territory and agency division winners will receive special
Awards of Recognition.  Representatives of the national winning teams
will receive an expense-paid visit to a NASA-related event. 
 
    In addition, NASA's Educational Affairs Division will conduct a
School Involvement Program for each of the winning schools. NASA
personnel will visit the schools and classrooms, and special events
will honor the students and their team coordinators, the faculty,
parents and community members who guided and assisted their
orbiter-naming projects. 
 
    House Joint Resolution 559, introduced March 10, 1986 by
Congressman Tom Lewis (R-Florida), called for the name of the
replacement orbiter to be selected from suggestions submitted by students. 
 
    On June 8, 1987, Dr. James C. Fletcher, administrator of NASA,
announced the program for students to recommend names to NASA for the
Space Shuttle orbiter to replace the CHALLENGER. 
 
    On Oct. 30, 1987, Congress authorized the NASA Administrator to
select a name for the new orbiter "from among suggestions submitted by
students in elementary and secondary schools." 
         
    Announcements of opportunity will be distributed to elementary and
secondary teachers and principals.  The announcements also will be
distributed to educators on NASA's Educational Affairs mailing list,
to educational organizations and professional associations and to NASA
field center education offices and Teacher Resource Centers. 
 
    To request an entry packet for the Orbiter-Naming Program,
teachers should contact: 
 
    NASA Orbiter-Naming Program
    Council of Chief State School Officers
    Suite 300
    400 North Capitol Street, N.W.
    Washington, D.C.  20001
 
    (Phone:  202/783-5109)
            (202/783-5113)

                  -<Defiant - okay by me>-
    
    I like Defiant.  Shows that the U.S.A. won't sit back cowardly and
    let the Russians (or anyone else) get ahead of us in the space race,
    because of a catastrophic malfunction.  Wherever humans are concerned,
    there will be a margin of error.  Truthfully, we are lucky that
    this has never happened before.
    
    rj
    
    

    	The name has already been chosen - ENDEAVOR.  See also Topic 535.
    
    	Larry
    

>    	The name has already been chosen - ENDEAVOR.  See also Topic 535.
					   ^^^^^^^^
	The name is ENDEAVOUR.