Conference 7.286::space

My understanding was that all the shuttles were owned by NASA and missons were
leased by the DoD, since the launch schedule shows different shuttle carrying
DoD payloads.  Regardless, NASA "owns" the launch and flight responsibilities
and I'm sure that no missions of any kind will go up until the cause is
determined and any necessary corrections/improvements have been identified
and/or implemented on the remaining 3 ships.

								Rick

According to a report I saw last night on ABC's NightLine the Air Force
would only agree to supporting the shuttle program if there were
contingency plans set up.  It was stated that 10 or 12 (?) Titan missiles
were planned as backups for satellite launches and other projects that do
not require human intervention/participation.

	Mike

As of 84, there were 5 Titan 3B and 10 Titan 34D launch vehicles in store
for Air Force use. The 34D uses the Boeing IUS (Intertial Upper Stage)
developed for the shuttle as its upper stage and could be used to launch
payloads intend for the shuttle.

When the existing Titans are phased out by MX, they would become available
to the Air Force and could presumably be converted to Titan 3Bs by the addition
of an Agena-D stage. The solid fuel strapons used by the larger Titans are
out of production but are not used on the 3B. The 3B is used to launch
observation satellites into low or highly elliptical (probalby used for
communications satellites intended to serve the Arctic) orbits.

The Air Force owns the shuttle launch area (SLC-6) at Vandenburg AFB, not
NASA. There were rumblings about DoD funding the fifth, cancelled shuttle
but nothing came of it.

gary

	As for the military owning the shuttles.  The Air force has 
  control (borrowed) the first shuttle Enterprise.  It is being used as a 
  testing medium  ie lift it up put it down.  assemble disassemble,  check 
  for stress better way to minimize turnaround time ect.  There is a LOT of 
  $$ invested  in the shuttle program by the military but there is no 
  ownership of the program.  NASA looks at the military as a customer with 
  a very BIG set of purse strings.  

	As mentioned above the "service" is tennitivly assembling what
  are being called "Graybirds"  Military shuttles for military functions
  that will launch from Vandenberg AFB.  There is no mention of a time table
  or when this will become "common" knowledge.  There has always been a
  reluctance of NASA to get too involved with the military.  Simply,  NASA
  has its way of doing things and the military theirs'.  NASA likes its'
  status even though the military is a big customer of theirs' as well
  as just about everybody else in the free world.

  <GWC>

Don't forget that the Enterprise is not launchable and may well cost more
than to make sapecworthy than building a new one.

gary

It was my understanding that the Enterprise was also already committed
to the National Air and Space Museum.

My understanding on making it flight ready was that it would be slightly
cheaper than another orbiter to build another "original" Columbia type
shuttle out of it, but that the basic design has evolved enough to make
it unattractive economically.
							-Brian

Yes, the Enterprise could theoretically fly.  However, it would be at great
expense, since this orbiter would have to be overhauled to accept engines
(it has none), etc..  Plus, as per .16, it has been committed to the NASM.

As far as military flights go, they will continue.  Here in Colorado Springs
will be the SOPC (not sure of the acronym exactly), that the military will
use for command, control, planning, and training for military shuttle missions.
Needless to say, in the wake of the Challenger disaster, considerable ripples
of doubt ran through the local populace (SOPC is about 700 jobs), but they
were quickly quelled by the military authorities.  The head of the Unified
Space Command headquartered here in C/S has been quick to reassure us here
that the military use of the shuttle will go forward.

Article: 55198
From: [email protected] (Samuel Bryant)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Air Force Space Command
Date: 18 Jan 93 03:25:20 GMT
Organization: Community_News_Service
 
Bill Gawne, [email protected] writes:
 
>While the Air Force may wish to claim space command as their own, it is
>in fact a joint service command staffed by folks from all DoD services.
>The USAF is the majority player at space command, but that's all.
 
Sorry Bill, but Air Force Space Command is 100% Air Force!!
(and has about 30,000 personnel including civilians)
 
US Space Command is the one you mean, and it is comprised of personnel
from the Air Force, Army, Navy, and Canadian Air Force.  It only has a
couple of hundred people and its role is to understand the warfighters
needs and ensure those needs are met with adequate space support.  The
commander in chief for US Space Command directs his component commands
to get what he needs on orbit.  CINC Space's component commands are: 
 
Air Force Space Command, a MAJCOM with 30,000 personnel
Army Space Command, 400 personnel
Navy Space Command, 750 personnel
 
So when people speak of Space Command they _are_ referring to Air
Force since they mean the command that does the work -- launching, and
controlling satellites on orbit. 
 
The Air Force is the National Executive Agent for spacelift and is
responsible for all DoD launches.  They buy the satellites, boosters,
and man the launch bases and ranges at Cape Canaveral AFS, FL and
Vandenberg AFB, CA. Not to mention the 49 remote tracking stations
around the world. Yes, those are Air Force - Not Navy, Not Army, and
Not US Space Command. 
 
If we go to war, CINC Space (Commander In Chief for US Space Command)
takes operational control of all space activities he needs to support
the warfighter.  But the work is still done by Air Force Space Command
personnel on Air Force Bases and remote stations. 
 
I used the pronoun HE on purpose.  CINC Space is the leader of a
combatant command and will be a Fighter Pilot.  CINC Space is also
CINC NORAD, Commander in Chief for the North American Aerospace
Defense Command. CINC Space is also, the Commander of Air Force Space
Command.  Yes, the man is triple hatted and two of his positions
require Fighter Pilot backgrounds (not my idea).  So, as long as women
can't be fighter pilots, don't ever look for them as CINC Space or
CINC NORAD. 
 
>If you want to work there you have to go thru one of the existing service
>academies or a ROTC program.  Then HOPE that someday all your wishes come
>true and you're assigned there.  But you're more likely to find yourself
>on the ground tracking stuff in space, than in space yourself.
 
No, not true because of your top level error that Air Force Space
Command is a joint command.  You would have to go through the Air
Force Academy, an Air Force ROTC program, the Officer's Training
School,  OR:: 
 
Direct commission as a Doctor, Nurse, or Lawyer
 
You are correct in assuming the difficulty in becoming an actual
astronaut.  There just are many positions available.  But as I said
earlier, Air Force Space Command has about 30,000 personnel which
includes civilians.  There are lots of opportunities to work on
something exciting and inovative. 
 
>US Space Command is considered a "combatant command", similar to the
>much more well known US Central Command (CENTCOM was the headquarters
>of Desert Shield/Storm, the made for TV war.)  The Space Commander is (?)
>a 4 star billet, and I've heard it alternates between Air Force and Navy
>officers.  Perhaps somebody who works for Space Command can confirm or
>refute this.
 
Yes, US Space Command is a combatant command, but his "combatants" are
in his component commands, Air Force, Army, and Navy. 
 
Air Force General (4 stars) Charles Horner is CINC Space (Commander in
Chief for US Space Command), his deputy is a Navy Admiral (3 stars)
and the positions will never rotate.  Air Force will always be CINC
Space.  There is no law or regulation preventing a rotating CINC but
if the Navy ever asked, they would have to give up CINC Pacific Fleet
to an Air Force General in return.  No, they never even ask.
 
General Horner is triple hatted;
 
	CINC Space - Commander in Chief for US Space Command
	CINC NORAD - Commander in Chief North American Aerospace Defense
	             Command
	Commander  - Air Force Space Command
 
BTW, his deputy at NORAD is a Canadian and those positions never
rotate either. 
 
Sorry to rag on you so much Bill, but I'm very proud of my command and
a little sensitive when people make bold statements which are incorrect. 
 
During peacetime, Air Force Space Command is _SPACE_COMMAND_
 
We do launch, We do satellites, We command and control space!
 
Captain Samuel Bryant
HQ Air Force Space Command
 
[email protected]
 
or 
 
[email protected]


Article: 55216
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Air Force Space Command
Sender: [email protected] (News Service)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 16:20:03 GMT
 
In article <[email protected]>
[email protected] (Samuel Bryant) writes:
 
>US Space Command is the one you mean, and it is comprised of personnel
>from the Air Force, Army, Navy, and Canadian Air Force.  It only has a
>couple of hundred people and its role is to understand the warfighters
>needs and ensure those needs are met with adequate space support.  The
>commander in chief for US Space Command directs his component commands to
>get what he needs on orbit.  CINC Space's component commands are:
>
>Air Force Space Command, a MAJCOM with 30,000 personnel
>Army Space Command, 400 personnel
>Navy Space Command, 750 personnel
>
>So when people speak of Space Command they _are_ referring to Air Force
>since they mean the command that does the work -- launching, and
>controlling satellites on orbit.

Back when I supported Joint Chiefs as a civilian contractor it was
well known that the services had gotten much too big for their
britches.  It has been discussed for many years and the consensus
appears to be a stronger joint officer program.  The Air Force disses
joint officers (i.e. refuses to promote those who opt for JCS as
opposed to AF staff).  I should note that USAF is not exactly getting
prizes for its recent operations (see GAO/IMTEC-92-3 Satellite Control
System Upgrade).  If you want to have a large impact on the USAF space
program, get a Phd in astro etc and go to work for AEROSPACE corp. 
They apparently get the really interesting stuff. 
 
This is not meant to degrade the USAF but to merely relate that they
are not perfect and that joint command structure may change drastically 
if certain individuals (not certain generals) have their way. 
 
This obviously does not reflect the views of my employer which support USAF.
 
Karl Pitt ([email protected])

Article: 55220
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Air Force Space Command
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1993 17:48:38 GMT
 
Earlier I wrote:
 
>>While the Air Force may wish to claim space command as their own, it is
>>in fact a joint service command staffed by folks from all DoD services.
>>The USAF is the majority player at space command, but that's all.
 
and then Captain Samuel Bryant replied:
 
> Sorry Bill, but Air Force Space Command is 100% Air Force!!
> (and has about 30,000 personnel including civilians)
> 
> US Space Command is the one you mean, and it is comprised of personnel
> from the Air Force, Army, Navy, and Canadian Air Force.
 
Which seems to agree with what I wrote earlier.  Yes, there is a very large
USAF Space Command, and much smaller US Army and US Navy Space Commands, and
they all come under a joint force command called US SPACE COMMAND, which is
what the good Captain then describes in detail.
 
I gather from Captain Bryant's posting that I was misinformed about the
command of US SPACECOM rotating between the USAF and the Navy.  From his
information it appears the billet is always held by an Air Force general.
 
-Bill Gawne,  Space Telescope Science Institute


Article: 55261
From: [email protected] (David "Fuzzy" Wells)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: I want to be a space cadet (LONG)
Date: 19 Jan 93 04:48:25 GMT
Sender: [email protected] (netnews admin account)
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
 
>> I heard that the Air Farce now has a space command- is there now a 
>> service academy like Annapolis where I can be a space cadet?
>
>If you want to work there you have to go thru one of the existing service
>academies or a ROTC program.  Then HOPE that someday all your wishes come
>true and you're assigned there.  But you're more likely to find yourself
>on the ground tracking stuff in space, than in space yourself.
>
>of Desert Shield/Storm, the made for TV war.)  The Space Commander is (?)
>a 4 star billet, and I've heard it alternates between Air Force and Navy
>officers.  Perhaps somebody who works for Space Command can confirm or
>refute this.  Seems I recall somebody called "Fuzzy" who has contributed
>to our little group before who is associated with SC.
 
Greetings,

	I hate to seem the sole source of info on Air Force Space Command
and the other space commands, but since the military is overly cautious on
allowing their computers to be connected to the outside world, here it goes:
(any and all comments, especially from those more knowledgeable, are welcome)
 
	First, I work in Air Force Space Command.  That is solely USAF and
should not be confused with the other services' commands or the joint US
Space Command.  US, USAF, and USA Space Command HQs are all located in 
Colorado Springs, CO (hope you like cold weather!) and Navy Space Command is
in Dahlgren, VA (I believe.....I will be taking a trip there soon to find out).
Air Force Space Command HQ (AFSPACECOM or SPACECOM, yep, they want to take
over the entire works) is loaded with civilians, so being military is not
a true "must".  In fact, in the Scientific Analysis area in which I work, the
ratio is a little over 5:1 (civ:mil).  This is a bit unusual, even for
AFSPACECOM, but I like it lots.  I can only give you the makeup of the
typical Headquarters-level person since that is where I am and this is my
first assignment.  Be warned, HQ is top-heavy to the extreme (a good
measurement at HQ AFSPACECOM is GPSI...generals per square inch) and is
like-wise loaded in terms or experience. 

      For headquarters-level personnel, the average military (USAF of course)
officer is a captain or higher, has over eight years in the service with
two assignments at the operations-level, has a master's degree in some
technical/science/math field (although a fair number carry doctorates)
and loves Star Trek more than any other show.

      The average civilian is a GS-12 or 13, has a master's degree (lots are 
doctorates), has at least 4 years experience in the field (although many
have 10+ years), and can sling equations with the best of them.  Ditto on
the fav. show.  Many have published.  Most are from big-name schools. 

      FORTRAN and C are the languages of choice and Silicon Graphics is the
computer (Reality Engines are wonderful).  Secret clearance is a minimum,
with Top Secret and above being fairly common (at least in Analysis).  Be
prepared to work at odd hours (sometimes satellites break down when
you least expect it).  Being able to visualize an orbit by only looking
at a two-line elset is a must.  Enjoying travel helps as out of town 
conferences and training takes place regularly. 

      As for me, I am an anomaly.  Second Lieutenants are _NEVER_ supposed
to go to HQ, always operations.  I was a ROTC grad out of Georgia Tech
with a nice GPA who put down HQ AFSPACECOM as my first choice.  I knew that
it was impossible...but for once, Luck smiled in my favor.  Most new guys
(military) who enter AFSPACECOM go to Undergraduate Space Training for a few
months to learn all about rockets and satellites and astrodynamics.  They
are then shipped off to an operations base....often, Falcon AFB in Colorado
Springs.  Other glorious sites include Diego Garcia, Thule (Greenland),
Australia, England....lots of remote locations and a few in the states like
Onizuka AFB in Sunnyvale, CA or Cheyenne Mountain AFB in Colorado Springs.
Lots of times, the job is screen-watching.  This means staring at a console
for long periods of time, dying in boredom until a crisis happens...then you
better be real good at stress-management or the world may go *BOOM*.

      Of course, since AFSPACECOM looks to be taking over the missile side
of the house for the old SAC, you can also enjoy living in a silo with your
finger on the button.  However, the two big missions are still space surv.
and missile warning. 

      On the bright side, the USAF astronauts belong to us.  That means we
get an astronaut briefing every time the shuttle goes up with a USAF officer.
We also (naturally) have close contacts with NASA and all those wonderful
space contractors (and computer contractors) out there and we meet with
them often.

      And Bill, you are correct, a four-star controls the whole shooting
match....with herds of ones, twos, and threes helping.  And remember, not
all those are stars...some are maple leaves (Oh Canada!).
 
      BTW, we take our jobs REAL seriously...joking about them and the
fact that the Springs will be the second place to go *BOOM* is just a
way to blow off some pressure.  And AFSPACECOM can be a pressure
cooker at times. Dedication and desire are the big words to remember. 
No one is there because they "have to be" (especially in today's
military) and 99.9% of the people love their job and working in this
field.  I enjoy my job lots and think that the study of space debris
is fun (yep, some people are weird that way). 
 
<personal note>: as to the name "Fuzzy" and being a "Space Debris
Guru", both are rather simple to explain.  The nickname is from
college days and is due to the fact that I keep my hair VERY short. 
And being a "guru" in space debris is easy when only a handful of USAF
personnel are working on the problem (let alone understand it). 
 
<really personal note>: I also decided long ago that I was going to be
a space cadet (was it "Silent Running" or "I Dream of Jeanie"?  I'll
never tell).  So I got myself into a magnet (read: geek) engineering
high school and made great grades.  MIT was WAY too expensive, and
with an ROTC scholarship, Georgia Tech was virtually free.  Picked
up my commission and an aerospace engineering degree.  Lucked out with
AFSPACECOM assignment in analysis (with ultra-cool civilian boss).  I
am pursuing a masters degree in electrical engineering (space systems
option) at the Univ. Colorado at Colorado Springs.  This will allow me
lots of time to play with space stuff, EE stuff, and computer science
stuff (especially in virtual reality if I play my cards right).  Then
I plan to run out to the Naval Postgraduate School and pick up a
doctorate in their virtual reality program.  After that, I jump ship
with the Air Force, weasel my way into NASA and get into the
telepresence arena (as I figure manned spaceflight will die due to
budget). I hope to be one of the first "virtual astronauts".  That is
my plan.  Good luck on yours.  BTW, suggestions in this quest are
appreciated. 
 
				Cheers,
						Fuzzy.
 
==============================================================================
_ __/|       | Lt. David "Fuzzy" Wells | "Society produces rogues, and
\'o.O'       |    HQ AFSPACECOM/CNA    |  education makes one rogue 
=(___)=      |    Space Debris Guru    |  cleverer than another." 
   U  ...ack!| [email protected] |                      OSCAR WILDE
==============================================================================

Article: 55265
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: [email protected] (David "Fuzzy" Wells)
Subject: Re: Air Force Space Command
Sender: [email protected] (netnews admin account)
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 05:43:15 GMT
 
Shows you what I get for replying before reading all the new posts....
 
Glad to see Capt. Bryant online....  I am sure he can answer most of
your questions much better than myself (as he has already shown =)  ).
 
					Fuzzy.
==============================================================================
_ __/|       | Lt. David "Fuzzy" Wells | "Every improvement in
\'o.O'       |    HQ AFSPACECOM/CNA    |    communication makes the 
=(___)=      |    Space Debris Guru    |      bore more terrible." 
   U  ...ack!| [email protected] |                FRANK MOORE COLBY 
==============================================================================

Article: 55262
From: [email protected] (David "Fuzzy" Wells)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Orbital elements of junk in space wanted
Date: 19 Jan 93 05:16:21 GMT
Sender: [email protected] (netnews admin account)
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
 
>(By international treaty, orbital elements and a name for everything
>launched onto orbit must be announced within a day of launch. Keeping
>this secret would be pointless in any case: An observer can derive
>orbital elements with binoculars and a clock...)
>
>As I understand it, NORAD keeps a listing of all objects (functional or
[....continues....]
>if the object he observed at such-and-such a time and place was a 
>piece of orbital debris.) 
>
>I have a number of references on the subject of debris (actually, the
>bibliography from a paper on the subject) but I think they are all
>focused on number density vs. size, and don't give individual orbital
>elements.
 
Thanks for writing, Frank.  And BTW, I would love those references (I
am sure that my list is nowhere complete) as the size density is a big 
problem in the debris field.
 
Okay, let's take a look at the above.  International treaty doesn't
require all of the above and unless those binoculars are REAL good, I
doubt that you can track deep-space objects.  I know that the treaty
doesn't cover elsets since _we_ have to find those out via our ground
stations for sats that are not our own.  And as for a name, how does
DOD-1 sound to you?  Not very helpful in finding out what it is.  Both
are real sticky-points with the newly-emerging space-faring nations who
want to know what is up there and where it can be found.
 
Yep, NORAD does keep a listing of "everything" seeing how all data pathways
lead to NORAD.  And that guy that you call up to find out if your object
such-and-such is a piece of debris, a classified sat, or something unknown
that is not in the catalog is probably me or someone in my office.  We do
this alot for our observation guys and they HAVE found pieces that NORAD 
did not know about or had reported lost. 
 
				Cheers,
						Fuzzy.
==============================================================================
_ __/|       | Lt. David "Fuzzy" Wells |      "The only completely
\'o.O'       |    HQ AFSPACECOM/CNA    |        consistent people  
=(___)=      |      "We do debris"     |         are the dead." 
   U  ...ack!| [email protected] |                   ALDOUS HUXLEY 
==============================================================================