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Conference 7.286::fddi

Title:FDDI - The Next Generation
Moderator:NETCAD::STEFANI
Created:Thu Apr 27 1989
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2259
Total number of notes:8590

1439.0. "FDDI vs fast ethernet and Q-bus fddi controller" by HGOM11::PRESTONMEI () Wed Sep 07 1994 05:25

    Hi
    
    I'm PRC sales support. 
    
    is there any FDDI controller on Q-bus? because my customer want to
    connect their VAX3800,VAX3520 to FDDI enviroment. 
    
    how do we compare FDDI and fast_ethernet? 
    Will we support fast_ethernet? what is our stratagy on supporting FDDI
    and fast_ethernet. we have announced PCI fast_ethernet controller but 
    I have not heard of PCI FDDI controller 
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1439.1Controllers...LARVAE::HARVEYBaldly going into the unknown...Wed Sep 07 1994 05:358
   The controllers for Q-BUS VAX 4000 & MicroVAX 3300-3900 are :-
 
   DEFQA-SF for SAS  and  DEFQA-DF for DAS
 
   As for the FDDI vs Fast Ethernet I'll leave that for others to comment on as 
   I am as much i the dark as you.
 
   Rog
1439.256824::STEFANIHave the # for the Mars Observer?Wed Sep 07 1994 10:4720
    re: .0
    
    >>Will we support fast_ethernet? what is our stratagy on supporting FDDI
    >>and fast_ethernet. we have announced PCI fast_ethernet controller but 
    
    Digital announced a PCI Fast Ethernet CHIP, not a controller.  The
    Semiconductor group announced a new chip which adheres to one of the
    100Mbps "standards" (not sure which one).  For information on whether
    ABG will be coming out with a controller based on this chip or any
    other chip, try asking the EtherWORKS product manager, Bob Jurgen
    (DELNI::JURGEN).
    
    >>I have not heard of PCI FDDI controller 
    
    You should have heard of it by now!  :-)  We've program announced our
    FDDI PCI controller family a few months back and we're planning on
    shipping adapters before the end of the year.  Contact the PM, George
    Nielsen at DELNI::G_NIELSEN for more details.
    
      - Larry
1439.3Fast Ethernet Info56824::B_CRONINThu Sep 08 1994 18:45174
    re: Fast Ethernet
    
    Fast Ethernet is a long twisting story, but I'll try to keep it simple!
    I will also describe 100VG-AnyLAN, which started life calling itself
    Fast Ethernet, but lost the marketing war for the name. As things look 
    right now, it is also losing the battle for the hearts and minds of 
    high speed network users everywhere........
    
    Fast Ethernet refers to a 100 Mbps version of Ethernet, being
    standardized in 802.3. The standard just went out to ballot, so it
    is pretty close to being finished. You will see many product
    announcements at Interop next week. The most visible companies in this 
    space are Grand Junction, 3Com, and Synoptics. Digital Semiconductor 
    recently announced a PCI to FAST Ethernet MAC chip, so we are also 
    seen as participating in this space. 
    
    Fast Ethernet scales the CSMA/CD protocol for operation at a MAC
    data rate 100 Mbps. It has the following parts to it: 
    
    1) The MAC protocol is the same as 802.3 CSMA/CD - with the exception
    that the Interpacket Gap has been reduced to 960 ns. The same packet
    formats apply as were seen on the CSMA/CD network (64 to 1508 byte
    packet lengths. little endian order in and out of the MAC). 
    
    2) There are multiple PHY/PMD combinations, designated as follows: 
    
    	a) 100BASE-TX - this is a PHY/PMD for use with category 5 UTP and 
    	150 ohm STP. It is essentially the same as the PMD developed for 
    	FDDI on UTP, i.e. it is scrambled MLT-3 coding. It transmits on 
    	one pair, and receives on another pair, with the crossover in the 
    	repeater. The cable can be up to 100 meters long. RJ45 pinouts are 
    	the same as for 10BASE-T.
    
    	b) 100BASE-T4 - This is a PHY/PMD for use with up to 100
    	meters of category 3 UTP cable. It can also be used on category 
    	5 UTP. It uses all 4 pairs in the UTP cable. The data stream is 
    	split into 3 parts, and each part is sent using a 3 level coding 
    	scheme, using one pair of the cable for each stream. The reason it 
    	needs 4 pairs is as follows. Two of pairs are bidirectional, i.e., 
    	either end of the point to point link can transmit on that pair. The 
    	third and fourth pairs are similar to what happens in 10BASE-T,
    	i.e., one end transmits on one pair, the other end transmits on the 
    	other pair. Collisions are detected when a transmitter sees energy 
    	in the pair that it doesn't use, when it is transmitting (same 
    	as is done by 10BASE-T). 
    	
    	c) 100BASE-FX - This is a 1300 nm based optical link taken from the 
    	FDDI multimode PMD spec. It supports a 2 km distance, subject to a 
    	timing restriction that we'll get into. It transmits on one fiber, 
    	and receives on a second, with the crossover in the cabling (just 
    	like FDDI). 
    
    3) Repeater spec - This spec is a little more complicated than you are 
    used to seeing in 10 Mbps enet. The spec defines two types of repeaters, 
    referred to as Class 1 and Class 2. Class 2 repeaters support only one 
    PMD type, and you can have no more than 2 of them in the network. In 
    addition, they can't be separated by any more than 5 meters of cable. 
    Class 1 repeaters can interconnect dissimilar PMD types (e.g. 100BASE-TX 
    and 100BASE-T4) and you can only have 1 of them in the network. 
    
    Since you don't get anything for free, you trade speed for distance 
    in a CSMA/CD network. So, for 10 times the data rate, you are limited
    to a network of no longer than 205 meters between stations. In other
    words, Fast Ethernet is a workgroup solution, which must be bridged
    or routed to a backbone. You may have seen switch announcements from
    Synoptics and Grand Junction talking about Full Duplex links. It is 
    possible to run 100BASE-TX and 100BASE-FX links in a full duplex mode, 
    when the repeaters are replaced by bridges/switches. This means that 
    all links are now point to point links, and, that 2 km fiber link now
    becomes useful for connecting switches over a large area. 
    
    4) NWAY Signaling protocol - This is a protocol that is being
    introduced into both 10BASE-T and 100BASE-TX and 100BASE-T4 stations. 
    The protocol works as follows: 
    
    	a) Stations wakeup in 10BASE-T mode. 
    	b) The NWAY protocol looks like a 10BASE-T linkbeat pulse to
    	   older 10BASE-T stations, which then enable their links for 
    	   operation as 10BASE-T. 
    	c) An NWAY capable station will then exchange information with 
    	   its neighbor, to negotiate whether they should operate in 
    	   one of 4 modes: 
    
    		a) 10 Mbps, half duplex 
    		b) 10 Mbps, full duplex 
    		c) 100 Mbps, half duplex 
    		d) 100 Mbps, full duplex 
    	
    It is expected that adapters will be capable of both 10 and 100 Mbps 
    operation, similar to what was seen in the 4/16 Mb token ring market. 
    Note that full duplex 100 Mbps does not work for 100BASE-T4 stations, 
    since they need all four pairs to talk half duplex. 100BASE-T4 stations
    could support full duplex 10 Mbps operation though, since they only 
    need 2 pairs for that functionality.  
    
    
    100VG-AnyLAN, aka Demand Priority, aka 100BASE-VG
    
    100VG-AnyLAN was a competing solution for Fast Ethernet that was
    brought to the IEEE by Hewlett Packard. Its formal name is 802.12
    Demand Priority. It allowed Ethernet formatted frames to be scaled up
    to a 100 Mbps data rate on category 3 UTP cabling. Along the way, IBM 
    joined in, and support for 802.5 frames was added to the proposal. After 
    a long nasty standards battle that you might have read about, IEEE 802 
    decided to create a new committee, 802.12, to standardize 100VG-AnyLAN. 
    Sounds similar to the 802.3/802.4/802.5 decision of years earlier.........
    
    100VG-AnyLAN supports the Ethernet frame format, and also the 802.5 
    frame format, but NOT AT THE SAME TIME, i.e., the network is configured 
    for either 802.3 frames, or, 802.5 frames. Its initial goal was to 
    allow 100Mbps ethernet frames to run on category 3 UTP. It now has 
    PMDs for category 3 or 5 UTP using 4 pair, category 5 UTP and 150 ohm
    UTP using 2 pair, 500 meters of fiber running at 850 nm, or, 2 km of
    fiber running at 1300 nm. 
    
    100VG-AnyLAN is also an entirely new MAC protocol, which uses a
    centrally located hub to grant access to the network. There are no
    hard and fast rules in the standard for either the maximum station to 
    station distance, or, the maximum number of stations. There is a 
    performance impact as stations are added, as there is with any shared 
    media LAN, but simple configuration rules are not part of the standard.
    
    Demand Priority is similar to token passing without the token. It 
    works as follows. A station signals a request to transmit 
    to the hub it is connected to. The hub scans its ports, looking 
    for transmission requests from the attached stations, and services them
    in a round robin order. When it recognizes a request, the hub 
    grants the attached station the right to transmit ONE packet onto the 
    network. When that transmission is completed, the hub waits
    for a period of time to allow new requests to be signaled, and then
    grants the next round robin request. When hubs are chained together in
    a hierarchy, the control of the transmission order is controlled by the 
    hub at the top of the tree. Transmission requests from the stations
    bubble up to this central hub, which passes the right to transmit 
    back down the tree to the hub closest to the station. That hub services 
    all requests from its ports in round robin order, and then passes control 
    back to the central hub. In this manner, the right to transmit is passed 
    from station to station, based on who has a pending request. 
    
    When a station joins the network it undergoes a training period, during
    which time the hub learns its address. When a packet is received, it
    is buffered just long enough to decode the address, and send the
    packet to the port on which the station is attached. This provides 
    some limited security. 
    
    Demand Priority gets its name from the way it that it supports two
    priority levels, called normal and high priority. Normal priority 
    requests are not serviced until all high priority requests have been 
    serviced. If a normal priority request is pending for longer than 300
    ms, the hub promotes the normal request to high priority, and it 
    is then serviced by the high priority round robin queue. In other 
    words, it demands priority. 
    
    The original intent of 100VG-AnyLAN was to support category 3 UTP. It
    did this by splitting the 100 Mbps MAC data stream into 4 parts, 
    scrambling each part, coding each part with a a 5/6 code and then 
    tranmitting it using a 2 level code. So, there are 4 wires being used 
    at each time. The entire protocol is too elaborate to describe here, but 
    the key point is that all 4 wires are in use for a transmission. For 
    the 2 pair and fiber systems, the signaling protocol is designed slightly 
    differently. 
    
    
    Please send me mail with any information as to what customers
    are asking for in this area. I am in the hub group, and we are watching
    this very carefully. In some cases, FDDI will serve a customer's 
    needs if explained to them. In other cases, people are waiting for 
    ATM. In some cases, they may want Fast Ethernet. Any feeedback you have 
    as to customer questions/expectations around Fast Ethernet or 100VG-AnyLAN 
    would be much appreciated. 
    
    
    
    
1439.4the future of FDDI, ...HGOM11::PRESTONMEIWed Sep 14 1994 11:2114
   there is aa marketing war between Fast Ethernet and 100VG-AnyLAN, but we
    seems out of the market and focus on FDDI. when we compete with
    Synoptic, my customer say that Synoptic's salesman tell them that FDDI
    is going to end of life because slower than ATM and much expensive than Fast
    Ethernet and 100VG-AnyLAN. is it true?
    
    And SynOptic say that ehternet switch technology provide full 10 Mb/s 
    bandwith to each LAN segment and it is faster than Digital's multiports
    bridge. 
    
    
    
    
    
1439.556824::STEFANIHave the # for the Mars Observer?Wed Sep 14 1994 12:3343
    >>there is aa marketing war between Fast Ethernet and 100VG-AnyLAN, but
    >>we seems out of the market and focus on FDDI. when we compete with
    >>Synoptic, my customer say that Synoptic's salesman tell them that FDDI
    >>is going to end of life because slower than ATM and much expensive than
    >>Fast Ethernet and 100VG-AnyLAN. is it true?
    
    Well, my comments are worth as much as most analysts (less than $0.01)
    but there are a couple of things in favor for FDDI:
    
    	1. It's a mature standard with tons of interoperable equipment.
    	2. FDDI-FDDI performance will beat 100Mb-100Mb Ethernet performance
           any day of the week.
        3. FDDI over UTP prices are extremely competitive with today's high
           end Token-Ring adapters and should be competitive with Fast
           Ethernet adapters.
    	4. While the 100Mbps Ethernet camps are slugging it out over which
           one is better, customers have a huge choice today over FDDI
           vendors, especially in the backbone space where FDDI clearly
           beats out 100Mbps Ethernet.
        5. While ATM deployment is expected to grow, there is still a LOT
           of work that needs to be done to get native ATM services and
           support in today's operating systems.  Fast Ethernet, Fast
           Token-Ring, etc have the advantage here in that shared LAN
           technology is well understood and supported in today's NOS's,
           protocol stacks, etc.  ATM is going to be awesome once it's
           native to the desktop, but it's going to take time to get there.
    
    100Mbps Ethernet certainly has its place and if I had to take a guess,
    I would say that 10/100 Fast Ethernet adapters are going to become very
    popular, at least on the desktop.  However, FDDI is not dead or dying...
    in my opinion and before you accept comments otherwise, ask the hub vendor
    if they support FDDI today.  I'll bet you they say yes.  :-)
    
    >>And SynOptic say that ehternet switch technology provide full 10 Mb/s 
    >>bandwith to each LAN segment and it is faster than Digital's multiports
    >>bridge. 
    
    This is utter garbage.  The Synoptics, Kalpana, whatever, Ethernet
    switches can't come close to matching the performance of the GIGAswitch.
    If there's any question about the GIGAswitch, ask 3Com.  They're trying
    to figure out how to keep up with it with their brouters.
    
       - Larry
1439.6Standards Status?BUNDE::BURNSThu Oct 20 1994 16:198
.3 says that the standard for Fast Ethernet (802.3 @100Mbs) recently went 
out for balloting.  A report on the current status of that standard, as 
well as the standard for 100VG ANYLAN (802.12), would be of value to me for 
a current consulting engagement.  I'd be grateful if the author of .3 or 
anyone else would post the latest status here.


Malcolm
1439.756821::B_CRONINMon Nov 07 1994 15:5810
    
    The 802.3 Fast Ethernet ballot officially passed its letter ballot, but
    as with all standards, comments need to be resolved. That is being done
    this week at the November 802.3 meeting. 
    
    There were approximately 1600 comments to be resolved, 500 of them
    technical in nature. We expect that they will be resolved, and that the
    document will be stable by early December. 
    
    
1439.8100VG AnyLAN Standard Status?BUNDE::BURNSTue Nov 15 1994 17:556
Thanks for the answer on Fast Ethernet (802.3) standard approval status.  I'm 
still looking for the status on 100VG Anylan standard approval.  Can anyone 
help?


Malcolm
1439.9NETCAD::B_CRONINTue Nov 15 1994 18:385
    VG is also in the final stages of approving the standard. Look for
    press releases to that effect in the near future. 
    
    Prevailing wisdom is that VG is DOA.
    
1439.10Finalized?BEJVC::LEUNGWINGKINTue May 23 1995 04:552
    
    Any update on the 100BaseT standard status?  
1439.11NETCAD::STEFANIWelcome to the Revolution!Tue May 23 1995 09:1413
    [Taken from email message from Henry Yang - Technical Director, ABG]
    
	100BaseT has passed letter ballot successfully. It is now
waiting for final approval by 802 (also called Confirmation Ballot).
Technically, it is done and it is waiting for final procedural step.

	There are several working group still developing future
additions (potential additions) including T2 (2 pair category 3 cable
support), full duplex, and enhancement to backoff algorithm (called
BLAM).

	Henry