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Conference 7.286::fddi

Title:FDDI - The Next Generation
Moderator:NETCAD::STEFANI
Created:Thu Apr 27 1989
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2259
Total number of notes:8590

269.0. "Synoptics copper FDDI, Translation or Encapsulation?" by CHICHZ::EDELMANN () Tue Jun 04 1991 19:18

    A customer of mine has a heavy investment into Synoptics concentrators. 
    The a recent article in Digital Review or a related trade rag indicated
    that Synoptics, Cabletron, and Digital were going to get together to
    create lower cost FDDI over Copper solutions.  My questions are as
    follows:
    
    Assuming the card in the Synoptics Concentrator must be a 10/100 Bridge
    card, is this device being jointly developed by DEC and Synoptics, or
    is DEC building the bridge card?  Is this assumption correct?
    
    Will this 10/100 bridge card do translation or encapsulation??
    
    
    Any pointers or clarification of the strategy in this space is greatly
    appreciated
    
    Regards,
    John Edelmann
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269.1KONING::KONINGEesti vabaks!Wed Jun 05 1991 11:004
A concentrator isn't a bridge, so the rest of your questions don't make
much sense.

	paul
269.2 A matter of Semantics...CHICHZ::EDELMANNWed Jun 05 1991 11:4333
    Let me clarify my initial statement.  
    
    Synoptics and Cabletron manufacture Ethernet "concentrators" that come in
    various configurations.  There are cards with fiber connections that
    allow multiple Synoptics boxes to connect to each other, and there are
    also unshielded twisted pair ethernet cards with 8 ports on each card. 
    As a result, you have a Ethernet "HUB" (Perhaps that is what confused
    the issue...  I probably used the wrong term.  Sorry about that...)
    that has the ability to connect to other Synoptics HUBS and form an
    large Ethernet LAN.
    
    So, my customer has a heavy investment in Synoptics Ethernet HUBS.
    The article in the trade rag indicated DEC, Synoptics, and Cabletron
    announced FDDI over copper products that would allow their products to
    interoperate.  
    
    My assumption, given that the Ethernet HUBS are 10MB
    environments, (The backplanes in these boxes do in fact support speeds
    up to 300 Mbits/sec, but Ethernet is Ethernet, so for practical
    purposes everything today is running at 10Mbits/sec.)  As a result, the
    addition of a FDDI copper card into the HUB would require this card to
    perform 10/100 bridge functionality, allowing the existing Ethernet HUB
    environment to connect to the FDDI backbone.
    
    Are these cards being bulit by DEC or have we just shared SPEC
    information that will ensure interoperability?  More importantly, do
    these cards do TRANSLATION, or ENCAPSULATION?  Frankly, I don't care
    who builds the thing as long as its a TRANSLATING card.
    
    Thanks again for any pointers, or information.
    
    Regards,
    John Edelmann
269.3KYOA::KOCHIt never hurts to ask...Wed Jun 05 1991 23:1433
    You missed what the announcment was. Copper is a replacement for fiber
    for connections 100m or less. It has nothing to do with 10/100
    bridging. It is simply a lower cost cabling method. Also, the copper
    allows for higher density on the concentrators. We are supplying
    concentrator boards which can accept 6 copper connections vs. 4 fiber
    connections. You can mix and match these cards in our concentrators.
    We and the other vendors support shielded twisted pair types 1,2,6 and
    Digital thinwire cable.
    
    We got together with a set of companies to come out with a de facto
    industry standard until the official international standard can be
    worked out for copper FDDI connections. This allow us and the other
    vendors to interoperate at the physical level. We are also coming out
    with low cost controller cards for the turbochannel, namely the DEC
    LANcontroller 700 for the DECstations will now have a copper option
    which costs only $4500/card.
    
    In regard to 10/100 bridging, nothing has changed. Digital bridges are
    translating, other vendors such as cisco are encapsulating. All bridges
    can be physically connected on the same ring or concentrator, but
    encapsulating bridges of a vendor can only send packets to
    encapsulating bridges made by the same vendor. Our translating bridges
    can interoperate with any other translating bridge. It means that any
    packet our bridge gets from an encapsulating bridge can't be understod
    and forwarded to Ethernets attached to our 10/100 bridge.
    
    In regard to copper controllers, don't expect the new XMI FDDI card to
    ever be copper. The engineering costs to make this happen would
    represent a loss to Digital. Simply put a fiber card in the
    concentrator to support fiber-only SAS stations such as the VAX-6000
    and VAX-9000 series CPUs.
    
    Does this explain it?
269.4Announcement now clear, but problem remains...CHICHZ::EDELMANNThu Jun 06 1991 02:1653
    Thanks for the explanation!  I dug up the May 27, 1991 issue of Network
    World, and yes, now that I read it again, that's exactly what the
    article says.
    
    My initial note simply resulted from a need expressed by my customer to
    allow them to connect their existing Synoptics ethernet hubs to their 
    proposed FDDI backbone.  The vision they had was a Fiber FDDI card that
    could be plugged into their Hubs (They have 3 to 6 hubs on each of 8
    floors of their building), and my assumption was such a card would
    have to be 10/100 bridge cards.
    
    A meeting with the Cabletron rep this past week uncovered the fact that
    they will be introducing a router card for their ethernet hub based on
    Cisco technology.  I'm not exactly sure, but a Cisco based router card may
    also be in the works for Synoptics.  Given DEC seems to be the clear
    leader in translating 10/100 bridge technology, couldn't we team with
    the major ethernet hub vendors for a 10/100 translating bridge card for
    Synoptics and Cabletron.  For that matter, how about such a module for
    the new DEChub?  (I'm thinking out loud here..)
    
    At the same time, I can understand possible push back from DEC saying "
    just use the new DECbridge 5xx or 6xx product to get your hub onto the FDDI
    backbone.  (The new 3 port ethernet module certainly makes it more
    economically palletable for a 3 hub per floor situation than it had
    been)  Still, I'm not real happy with the implementation, in that the
    Synoptics hubs my customer has, have no thin wire ethernet, or AUI
    connection points.  The cards are either fiber cards connecting the 3
    hubs on a particular floor, or UTP port cards.  The only way to get it to 
    connect to the DECbridge is to run a AUI transciever cable from the
    DECbridge to a small Synoptics "transciever" box which adapts a standard AUI
    connection to a UTP port. (Sort of like a DESTA but adapting AUI to
    UTP)
    
    In short, I see this as a Kludge, not to mention an opportunity to get
    into trouble with possible ethernet specification violations.  (How
    long can the AUI cable be? 40M? How long can the UTP wire run be between
    the Synoptics AUI/UTP "transciever" and the Synoptics hub?)             
    
    Sad but true, this is a REAL WORLD situation in my backyard.  My
    customers' frustration at this point is that he has FDDI compliant
    fiber in place tying his existing hubs together.  Wouldn't it be great
    to just move the fibers comming into the central hub to a DEC FDDI
    concentrator, and plug the other end into a 10/100 translating bridge
    card that happens to be cleanly neatly seated in the backplane of my
    Synoptics or Cabletron hub!  Maybe I'm asking too much...  Consider,
    though, with Cisco based router cards on the horizon for both Cabletron
    and Synoptics, how far behind are Cisco FDDI cards that plug into the
    same hubs? 
    
    Some thoughts from the field, from a DECIE and a customer getting ready
    to face the bleeding edge of technology...
    
    John