Conference 7.286::dcu

    I just spoke with DCU and unlike yesterday, they have not been getting
    complaints about denials, so they think the network problems have been
    fixed.  Whew!
    
    I wonder who determines which company provides network services for
    DCU's credit card authorization system?
    
    Bob

The DCU board contracts with a services provider for this.  But I think no
matter who you choose, occasional "system down" problems are likely - I have
seen this with various bank (and Amex) cards over the years.  What's new is
that merchants have taken the position that if they can't get a swipe 
verification, then they won't accept the card.  They can't be bothered to call
the center to check for problems.

It's for this reason that I recently acquired a second no-fee card from
a different bank, just in case.  For many years I have carried only one
bank card, but I now feel that the insurance is worth it.  As long as I
resist the tendency to run up both cards (I currently pay off my balance each
month), there should be no "down side" to this.

				Steve

This wasn't simply a case of "No swipe, no go".  The teller was on the phone
for several minutes and at one point was told that they couldn't access my
account given the account number.  They finally told the teller to call back
in 5 minutes and maybe it would go through.  I cooled my heels in the credit
union lobby for 10 minutes and the teller came back and told me that she
had been told that it was denied and to have me call the 'bank'.

I know DCU isn't unique in having these problems...just look at our own
once-reliable E-net.  You take out redundency, you have more downtime.  Natural
disasters can also cause problems.  Remember two years ago, when there was
all that flooding in the midwest?  EDS had majour outages of the net it
runs for some of the ATM networks and actually had to have the ATMs give you
money even if they couldn't confirm balances.

Bob

    Well, my DCU credit card was denied again Friday night and Saturday
    afternoon.  I know it's not MY card as Marina tried to use her DCU card
    Saturday and it also was denied, but a non-DCU card was approved:-(
    
    I'm going to have to seriously re-evaluate my relationship with DCU
    given the events of the past week.  This makes 4 wrong denials on two
    cards in less than a week.
    
    Bob

Bob, I suggest calling DCU's Visa department about this.  I doubt anyone
who can answer your questions is reading this file.

			Steve

    On Friday, I had my DCU Check Card rejected as an ATM Debit card (and the
    store was on NYCE) and yet accepted as a "Visa" debit card ... go
    figure.
    
    I think this problem is bigger than DCU ... and belongs in the hands of
    Equifax ...
    
    Stuart

I used my DCU Check card as a debit card twice this weekend, on Friday and
Saturday, and was approved both times.

			Steve

    After talking to DCU a few times, here is what appears to have
    happened.  The denial on 17-jul was due to a lightening strike at
    Equifax's Tampa, Fl. headquarters.  The denials on 21-Jul and 22-Jul
    were due to Equifax not having the correct balance for my account. I'm
    confused about this since I started the month with a credit balance and
    never had less than 90% of my credit limit available, which was
    confirmed by DCU today.  If all my denied transactions had gone
    through, I still would have had over 50% of my credit available. 
    Perhaps Equifax had to recover from very old backups or something.
    
    Bob

    Bob, maybe you should prod DCU into getting a formal explanation
    from Equifax for you. 

    re: .9
    
    I've got a reply from a BoD member that I want to publish here, but I'm
    waiting for their permission first...I'm sure it will be O.K.
    
    Bob

One interesting thing - you mentioned that you had a credit balance.  I found
out last fall that having a credit balance doesn't increase the amount you
can charge.  For example, if you have a $5000 credit limit and a $-1000
credit balance, an attempt to approve a $5500 charge will be denied.  So you
can't "pay-down" your balance in order to charge something above your credit
limit.

This has no bearing on the problem you had, but it was a surprise to me and I
thought it would be useful for people to know.

				Steve

    re: .9
    
    I've been real busy lately, so I haven't been able to post the reply.
    Things seem to be working fine, as I've been able to use my card a lot
    recently:-(
    
    
From:	US2RMC::"[email protected]"  3-AUG-1995 21:04:54.28
To:	rowlet::ainsley
CC:	
Subj:	Re: DCU Visa card



I talked w/DCU management about this subject a few days back.  Evidently, the
Equifax folks took more than your average power strike...the story is that they 
lost several clusters of drives representing several different institutions,
and thus were having problems with some individual accounts.

The story here is that account information is stored "by institution by
customer."  This data is spread across several clusters and disk farms so that
a power hit or other disaster wouldn't take out all the customers for a given
institution.  You happened to be unlucky enough to be hit.  I offer my
apologies on behalf of DCU and Equifax, and can tell you that this is an
isolated incident that should not happen on a regular basis.

Chris

% ====== Internet headers and postmarks (see DECWRL::GATEWAY.DOC) ======
% Received: from mail1.digital.com by us2rmc.zko.dec.com (5.65/rmc-22feb94) id AA08507; Thu, 3 Aug 95 21:56:40 -040
% Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by mail1.digital.com; (5.65 EXP 4/12/95 for V3.2/1.0/WV) id AA19124; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 18:51:02 -070
% Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA152661055; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 21:50:56 -040
% Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 21:50:56 -0400
% From: [email protected]
% Message-Id: <[email protected]>
% To: rowlet::ainsley
% Subject: Re: DCU Visa card
    

    Two points regarding denial of credit:
    
    1)  The "available credit" on your account is NOT the amount that you
        can charge!  Institutions are able to "reserve" portions of your
        credit balance.  For example, if you rent a car or check into a
    	hotel, they might reserve a portion of your credit that they think
    	is what you will later charge.  If you call the bank/CU and ask
    	what your remaining credit is, you WON'T find this out!  This
    	"reserved credit" expires after a certain number of days, or after
    	a charge comes in from the company that reserved the credit.
    
    	I discovered this unpleasant fact when I had a Baybanks card.
    	I complained extensively and was told that there was essentially
    	nothing they can do about it.  I wasn't satisfied, but I suspect
    	that it is how VISA works, rather than how Baybanks worked.  I
    	hope there is better error recovery (as well as better security)
    	for home banking than there is for credit card transactions.
    
    2)	A store that refuses to grant credit if they can't get a validation
    	may well just be obeying their agreement with the credit provider.
    	I'm part of an organization that is thinking of accepting credit
    	cards, and the credit agreement we would have had to sign has a
    	number of unpleasant features.  E.g., it said that if we accept a
    	card on-site and fail to get a validation, then we are liable if the
    	customer doesn't pay.  Obviously there should be an exception if
    	the credit card company isn't able to provide validation -- but
    	there isn't.  There was an even more draconian rule for charges
    	accepted by phone -- any such charge would be immediately removed
    	at the customer's request!  
    
    		Enjoy,
    		Larry

.13 1)  The "available credit" on your account is NOT the amount that you
.13>    can charge!  Institutions are able to "reserve" portions of your
.13>    credit balance.  For example, if you rent a car or check into a
.13>    hotel, they might reserve a portion of your credit that they think
.13>    is what you will later charge.  If you call the bank/CU and ask
.13>    what your remaining credit is, you WON'T find this out!

.13>    I suspect
.13>    that it is how VISA works, rather than how Baybanks worked. 

When I call the 800 number for info on my Citibank VISA, they give me two
number: balance and available credit.  If I haven't used the card recently,
those numbers will total to my credit limit.  If I have used the card, the
numbers total to something less than the limit, so I presume the difference is
the amount reserved by any transactions in progress. 

If Citibank can do this, why can't other card providers?  If you are
refused credit, it could be very helpful to know the amount reserved on the
card, so you can figure out what's going on.  Maybe the hotel you just
stayed in forgot to cancel their financial reservation on your card.  Or
maybe a waiter copied your number, and he's charging all his Christmas
presents on your card.

Actually, if Citibank knows the numbers, they could probably show which
places have charged what - that would be useful in an on-line interface.

-Steve

They can - so can DCU.  In fact, one time when my DCU Visa was declined, I
found out (by calling DCU's information center) that it was due to a 
$1300 "hold" being placed by the hotel I was staying at.

This "hold" business is standard with all brands of credit cards, not just
Visa nor an individual card issuer.  The idea is that the charge can't actually
be made until you complete the transaction (check out, return the car, etc.)
but that they need to protect themselves against you running your card over
limit after the initial check, hence the "hold".

The biggest problem with this is that people aren't told that it is happening.

				Steve

    I recall recently hearing/reading that self service gas stations with
    the 'pay at the pump' feature also place a "hold" on your credit card.
    It's usually released by the next time you need to buy gas.
    
    kjg

    I'm glad to know that banks other than BayBanks are able to tell
    customers what the hold amount is.  Maybe even Baybanks can do it now.
    
    	Thanks,
    	Larry

>    I recall recently hearing/reading that self service gas stations with
>    the 'pay at the pump' feature also place a "hold" on your credit card.
>    It's usually released by the next time you need to buy gas.

Why would that be? Once the pump is shut off the transaction is complete,
the charge is made, and that's that, just like a retail purchase. What's
the point of an extended "hold"?

  I first heard of hotels and car rental companies putting a "hold charge" on
one's credit card about two years ago, when I read it in Botton Line. About
the same time, I also heard about it in a conversation at work, from someone
who had learned about it by trial and error.
  How long has the credit card industry been doing this? I would say at least
20 years. They sure did a poor job of communicating this fact to their cus-
tomers, until recently.
  Once the principle was explained to me, it made perfect sense. But I would
not have thought of this otherwise.