Conference 7.286::dcu

    I just got a call back from Pat Coyle (I'd left her a message). First
    of all I have to say again if DCU does employee of the month or
    something I vote for Pat Coyle. I have never met anybody more polite
    or helpful.
    
    She is the person that ends up handling calls about lost ballots or
    ballots that haven't arrived.
    
    The majority of calls she has received fall into one of two categories:
    
    	a) People received their ballot but threw it away. Now
    	   they want a new one. She takes their information and has a new
    	   one sent to them.
    
    	b) As we know ballots are sent out third class. The post office
    	   will not forward third class mail. So anybody that has a
           forwarding address on file at the post office and the ballot was sent
    	   to the old address then THEY WILL NOT RECEIVE THE BALLOT. The
    	   post office just tosses them. They are not returned to sender
           I'm not sure as of what date DCU took peoples addresses. I
           forgot to ask Pat that.
    
    	   So bottom line is if you recently changed your address you won't
    	   be getting a ballot.
    
    If you haven't received a ballot by now and you fall in category b)
    above you should call DCU HQ and request one (1-800-DCU-TRYS). The
    info center should be able to take your info, but if you have any
    difficulty ask to talk to Pat Coyle. They should take your name and
    account number and corrected address. Pat at 5:00pm each day then
    informs the mailing company to mail out a duplicate ballot for that
    person. If you don't receive a new ballot (that one is mailed 1st
    class) within 2 or 3 days call back.
    
    Remember all ballots have to be received back by 5:00pm 22nd April.
    Note that it is the date that a ballot is received that counts NOT the
    date it is mailed.
    
    Dave

    By the way I explicitly asked Pat Coyle if it would be OK to post the
    information from .1 in the notesfile. She said that would be fine.
    
    Dave

    I have not received my original ballot.  I called DCU-TRYS last week
    (Tuesday?) and requested that another one be sent.  I have not received
    that either at this time.  I'm in Maryland, so I'd hope it would arrive
    by Wednesday if it was sent out fairly promptly.
    
    -- Russ

    Could anybody who has requested a new ballot and who has received it
    let us know here how long it took you to get it.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dave

    All this grief just to save a few bucks.  If this election were deemed 
    important by management they should have ensured that the ballots were
    dispatched via first class mail.  This appears to be shabby treatment
    of the members and owners; if not a veiled attempt to disenfranchise
    them.  Perhaps someone should file a complaint with the NCUA.
    
    Mike
    
    

    Gee Mike, who's grief is it?  It sounds as if some members did not
    open the mailing to see what's inside, and others did not notify the
    credit union that they had moved.
    
    I think that enough time and money has been expended on this election. 
    Let's not increase the cost!
    
    Mark

>    Gee Mike, who's grief is it?  It sounds as if some members did not
>    open the mailing to see what's inside, and others did not notify the
>    credit union that they had moved.
    
    And others did neither.  We just didn't receive the ballot.  If I
    recall correctly, there have been reports of this in years past as well.
    
    -- Russ

    Russ, I'm truly sorry that you did not receive a ballot, but I don't
    see how sending it 1st class would have made any difference.  The U.S.
    Postal Service performance is about the same.  I would advocate some
    other mechanism for voting over increasing the costs of mailing a
    ballot.
    
    Mark

    Mark,
    
    The class of mail DOES make a LARGE difference to the Postal Service. 
    First class mail does get attention that bulk rate, etc. does not get.
    Bulk rate/third class mail gets handled as time permits and gets less
    priority than first class.
    
    Some local POs do a good job of delivering everything.  Others seem to
    do better with first class than with lesser classes.  And, face it, how
    many times do you complain when a third class/bulk mailing doesn't
    arrive?  Who misses it?  Usually, no one.  Important mail gets sent
    first class.
    
    If DCU can spend cash to send out glossy "special reports" with no real
    information in it, why can't it send out ballots in presorted first
    class?
    
    -- Russ

    What does the post office do when they haven't got enough people to get
    all of the mail delivered?  I found out 5 years ago when our regular
    carrier quit and the local P.O. couldn't find a replacement.  They
    kept the first class mail coming through pretty well, but third class
    mail for our area ended up in a heap at the post office (so I was told). 
    Periodically we'd get a batch of it -- one time we got a fall catalog
    in February!  Given their situation, I was glad they did it that way.
    We get too many catalogs anyway.
    
    		Enjoy,
    		Larry

�    	b) As we know ballots are sent out third class. The post office
�    	   will not forward third class mail. So anybody that has a
�           forwarding address on file at the post office and the ballot was sent
�    	   to the old address then THEY WILL NOT RECEIVE THE BALLOT. The
�    	   post office just tosses them. They are not returned to sender
    
    The Post Office will not toss them if there is a statement on the
    envelope that address corrections are requested.  There is an additional
    charge to the sender to do this, though (they are returned to the
    sender postage due).

i called for a ballot for my daughter at school.
that was on 4 april.
Pat checked the address and noted it was unusual to have a request that
was not to replace a discarded ballot and was not due to a move that dcu
did not know about.

i called again on friday to check, and Pat reported that the request went
to the accounting firm on tuesday.

some time in the interval thursday 4/7 to monday 4/11, both ballots arrived.
it appears that third class can be very slow.

    
    I wonder what our "peers" do with their election ballots?  Do other
    credit unions send them out 3rd class mail?
    

RE: Note 813.13 by ASE003::GRANSEWICZ

    
>    I wonder what our "peers" do with their election ballots?  Do other
>    credit unions send them out 3rd class mail?

Not our peers, but our competition and no they do not because they do not
have elections -- they are BANKS...

	- mark

    I drove to my local post office Saturday because I do live close.
    When I inquired about any bulk mail that might be sitting around,
    the postmaster assured me that this was not the case.  The post-
    master inquired as to why I was so concerned and I explained about
    the ballot.
    
    He response was "your credit union is having an election and they
    sent the ballots bulk mail"???  He said bulk mail can get stalled
    at the point of distribution as well as the destination points.
    We agreed that cost was a concern, so he pointed out the obvious -
    mail the ballots out sooner!!  
    
    I don't have a problem with bulk mail if because this is saving the
    DCU money, but I do feel something needs to be done about the time-
    frames for mailing the ballots out and/or perhaps extending the time
    people have to return them.
    
    I did receive the "official" ballot today; it's already on its way
    back.
    
    Karen
    
    

    
    Sorry, I don't buy any of this "saving money" BS with regards to 
    the ballots.  Prior to this we spent money on a glossy "DCU Special
    Report" to be included in statements.  Then we spent money for a
    seperate mailing to send them to other members who didn't receive them
    in their statements.  At the same time we're sending marketing offers at
    presorted first class rates of $0.23.  We also print up a nice annual
    report and send it to our top depositors.
    
    Then it comes time to send out ballots for an annual election with
    members spread across the United States (and some in Europe that I have
    heard from) and we send ballots 3rd class mail?  *26* days have now
    elapsed since the ballots were first sent out yet some people haven't
    received them or are just receiving them.  There are only 10 days to
    return the ballot yet DCU is busy trying to get ballots TO members.
    
    Simply unbelieveable...
    

    > The class of mail DOES make a LARGE difference to the Postal Service.
    
    Sure it does!  They get more money from us, and they do give it
    priority.  But they can lose 1st class mail just as easily as other
    mail, and they do.  I do not believe that you would effectively reduce
    'lost mail' by going 1st class.
    
    If it turns out that timeliness is the real issue, then DCU can either
    mail out ballots earlier or pay for presorted-first class, whichever is
    cheaper.
    
    Mark

    
    As I recall, the sequence of election events is already incredibly
    tight, so it might not be an option to mail the ballots earlier.
    
    I suspect that the bulk rate mailing is a result of the "boring"
    elections of the past (ie, prior to 1992). I'll be happy if next year
    the responsible individuals realize that ballots have become just as
    important as account statements and marketing brochures, if not more so,
    and mail them accordingly.
    

>   <<< Note 813.16 by ASE003::GRANSEWICZ "DCU Election: 3 G's -> NO FEES" >>>
    
>    presorted first class rates of $0.23.  We also print up a nice annual
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    report and send it to our top depositors.
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                               ^^^^

Is this like "Relationship:" members, but diffrent ?  What does it take to
be a "top" depositor.  I'm tired of walking all the way to the CU office to
get an annual report.

Yet another class, it keeps going and going .......

    
    RE: .19
    
    Any DCU member can have a full annual report sent to them by calling
    the Info Center and requesting one.
    

My husband and I have an account at ICFCU.  We just received the annual meeting
notice in the mail.  Since we cannot attend, I filed it in the recycling bin. 
But I think it said that the balloting for the Board of Directors takes place at
the Annual Meeting.  Those elections must be really boring!

Elaine

    
    What about credit unions that have a nation-wide membership, such as
    DCU?  Navy FCU comes to mind.  Do these credit unions also send their
    election ballots out 3rd class mail?
    

.19 should have set sarcasm on,

bBut what does it take (account wise) to have a nice shiny Annual Report
sent ?

inquiring minds want to know.

Bill

RE: Note 813.20 by ASE003::GRANSEWICZ

>    Any DCU member can have a full annual report sent to them by calling
>    the Info Center and requesting one.

The point Bill was trying to bring up is what makes them so special over
99% of the rest of the membership?  Is this RelationshipPlus membership,
that we have not heard about yet?.  What about the person who was a top
borrower?  Do they also get special handling?

	- mark

    
    I believe we mailed them to our top 3000 depositors this year.  Last
    year I believe it was the top 5000 depositors.  I guess this falls
    under the category of reassuring our big depositors that all is well and
    their money is safe and sound.
    

Point of clarification -

   Does "top depositors" = "those with the highest total balances on deposit"?

   Still sounds like some kind of "club" if they get a special mailing that
  others don't get. Especially if it's an arbitrary "top n" rather than "those
  who have more than $x on deposit", since one never knows what one can do
  to obtain "membership".

-Jack

    
    Re: .25
    
    Now I'm getting to understand the relationship flap even more.
    I guess that someone's $50K is more important than my $2500 or
    so.  It still smacks of the privileged class that we all have
    been saying we don't want.  I don't care whether someone has
    $2M or $2.00 on deposit.  I resent people getting special treatment.
    What did it cost to send out those special mailings?
    
    Steve
    

    
    Since it's been a slow night on stand-by, I spent some time perusing
    the entries in this notesfile back two years ago.  What a pathetic
    stroll down memory lane.  
    Seeing these same type entries decrying the identical situations,
    tactics, and calumnies, which should have been resolved by the DCU
    management - surely in these two years - is indeed infuriating.
    What is blocking true progress (from a membership perspective) in DCU?
    
    Mike
    
    

I called Pat last Friday (4/8) to report that I had not received a ballot.
It was not until I spoke with her that I learned that the Post Office wasn't
forwarding them (we moved on the 15th of March).  So I gave her our new
address.

It's Wednesday night (4/13) and still no ballot.  I'll call again on Monday
if I don't get one by the weekend.  But I'm afraid that's cutting it too
close to get one by 4/22.

Sigh.  Maybe if I hadn't just paid off an auto loan, I'd get better
treatment :-(

- Jim

    re: bulk mail
    
    I'm currently working with the Postal service in Virginia.  Another
    contractor told me today how he came across a long hall filled with 3
    MONTH OLD BULK MAIL in the mail processing center (he actually checked
    the dates on the materials)!  We went through that hall today and he was 
    surprised to see that it was finally empty!
    
    Bulk mail DOESN'T CUT IT.
    
    BTW, no ballot here yet.  Not the original, not the supposed resend.
    
    -- Russ

Re:  .17

Hi Mark,

I think that these last 2 replies (.29 and .30) make the
point quite well.  I expect that what we are seeing in here
is only the tip of the iceburg.  How many people never
received ballots (or receive them too late) to vote
either because they've moved or the post office delivery
is too slow or for another preventable reason?

I would be surprised if the number wasn't close to a
thousand out of the current 73,000 members.  Even if
it was only a hundred, I don't think very important DCU
elections (much more important than any brochure they send
out, in my opinion) is the place to attempt to save money.

As I consider this, I believe that this issue to some extent
reflects the priorities of the two camps:  servicing the
customer vs. saving money for the bottom line.

Collis

Is the DEFCU totally in control of how the ballot mailing is managed or
would they need to take direction from the Board if such was provided
on this matter?

-Jack

    It's an operational decision so I would assume that DCU management
    makes the call. However, generally speaking managers take what
    their Board of Directors suggests fairly seriously.

    			Alfred

    
    Another possibility is that the accounting firm made the bulk-rate
    decision. I assume from .1 and .12 that the accounting firm is doing
    the actual mailing. If they were given some fixed fee to do the mailing
    and accounting, and the mailing method was not specified by DCU, the
    accounting firm could have decided to save a few bucks...
    

re: .-1, Bill

Hmm. Then perhaps we should have a ballot question similar to the one always
posed to us as DIGITAL stockholders - whether or not to retain the same
accounting firm.

At the same time, I have little doubt that the accounting firm wouldn't use
first class mail if so directed and so recompensed.

-Jack

As a followup to .29, my 2nd ballot was mailed 4/13 from Hingham and I
received it Thursday the 14th.  I didn't note whether it was sent 1st
class, bulk mail, pony express or carrier pigeon.

My girlfriend, whose address also changed (same as mine, in fact, also
mentioned to Pat when I called her) did not receive hers yet - maybe it got
held up in post office for a day.

My completed ballot went in the mailbox this morning.

- Jim

    Hi Collis,
    
    I have to believe that ALL elections that are handled by mail suffer
    from these problems.  I do not happen to believe that the class of mail
    makes much of a difference.  If the "very important DCU election"
    merits spending more money on it, then I propose that we choose a
    different mechanism than the US Mail.
    
    If you want to get REALLY RADICAL, then let's talk about changing the
    voting from "1 member, 1 vote" to something based on how much money a
    member deposits?  I get to vote my DEC stock that way.
    
    Mark

    >> If you want to get REALLY RADICAL, then let's talk about changing the
    >> voting from "1 member, 1 vote" to something based on how much money a
    >> member deposits?  I get to vote my DEC stock that way.
    
    You've *GOT* to be kidding...I hope.  That mindset, IMO, is the
    essence of the difference between current DCU credit union philosophy
    and "3G" philosophy.  One member/one vote gives the average person
    a chance to have a credit union run in *their* best interest...not in
    the best interest of the richest 2% of depositors, or whatever.

    
    RE: .37
    
    The simple way would be to raise the value of a share from $5 to $3500?
    No complicated and continually shifting "relationship" to worry about. 
    Only those that carry their weight get a ballot.  And what's the big
    deal about $3500?  After all, we are upscale.  Excuse me while I lunge
    for the wastebasket...
    

    
    Re: .37
    
    > If you want to get REALLY RADICAL, then let's talk about changing the
    > voting from "1 member, 1 vote" to something based on how much money a
    > member deposits?  I get to vote my DEC stock that way.
    
    Surely you jest.  That idea is 180 degrees in the opposite direction
    from a cooperative.  It makes sense in the stock market where ROI
    is the only thing that matters to the stockholders and they have
    nothing more in common than happening to be stockholders of the same
    company.  You are making an apples and oranges comparison.
    
    Steve
    
    

  >I do not happen to believe that the class of mail
  >makes much of a difference.

Based on some of the experiences in here, I disagree.

Collis

    well, maybe I'm kidding...but I sometimes wonder if all this democracy
    in a "financial services" institution is good for business.  Gosh, if
    the right combination of special interests were to come together, we
    could have water coolers in the branches and "peace signs" on the
    walls.
    
    Mark

    Got the ballot requested 4/5/94 from Pat Coyle yesterday 4/14/94.
    
    I didn't expect my second ballot to go out on the 5th because it
    was after 2PM when I called Pat and she indicated she only processes
    the requests once a day.  However I also noticed the postmark
    (Hingham) was the 7th.
    
    Karen
    

    
    Re: .42
    
    > ... but sometimes I wonder if all this democracy in a
    > "financial services" institution is good for business.
    
    When the voters are also the customers I fail to see how you
    can go wrong.  The DCU, frankly, has an attitude wrt its
    customers similar to one that got Digital into trouble: "Trust
    us, we know what's best for you."  I doubt it's a coincidence.
    
    Steve
    

    Well I found another reason people are not getting ballots. I know of
    one case where the person's birthdate was incorrectly entered
    into their record making them appear to be less than 16 years old.
    This means they wouldn't get a ballot.
    
    By the way the ballot mailing was done with a membership/address list
    cut from the 25th February 1994. So anybody who was a member of DCU as
    of February 1994 and who is over 16 should have got a ballot.
    
    The above information came from Pat Coyle at DCU. So as far as I can
    see these are the known reasons so far causing people not to receive
    ballots:
    
    	1) The Feb 25th address on file at DCU is not your current address.
    	   The post office will not forward 3rd class mail.
    
    	2) The 3rd class mail got lost or delayed because the PO quite
    	   understandably doesn't treat it with as much respect as 1st class
    	   mail.
    
    	3) The date of birth DCU has on your membership record is incorrect
    	   ie is coded as a date after February 25th 1978.
    
    	4) You threw your ballot away.
    
    Also I'm curious. I presume the PO wouldn't send 3rd class mail
    overseas. So this may be a problem as well.
    
    Has anybody who doesn't fit into one of the above categories still not
    received a ballot? Remember ballots have to be received back at
    the accounting firm by 5:00pm 22nd April (ie a week from today,
    Friday).
    
    Dave

    I've called DCU again.
    
    No ballot.  Less than a week to go.
    
    -- Russ

    The birthday problem has been seen before. I remember it 2 years
    ago. It's probably a good idea for people with new accounts to
    verify that  their birthday is correct if they want to vote. Typos
    happen.
    
    			Alfred

    Well, it's here at last.  The ballot arrived on Saturday.
    
    The resend was sent first class, but was not postmarked until April 14,
    about a week and a half from my original request for a resend.
    
    It'll be sent back tomorrow.  I hope it makes it to Mass in time.
    
    -- Russ
    
    PS/ No sign of the original ballot yet.

My girlfriend's ballot was resent the same day as mine, to the same address.
However, there was some glitch in the Post Office because her ballot went
through the forwarding loop, even though the ballot already had the new
address on it! It finally arrived Tuesday.

I'm glad the resend was 1st class!

- Jim