Conference 7.286::dcu

�    "Do you have anything about the DCU elections I can have?"
�    
�    She said she did and went into a back room and came back with the attack
�    memo  stapled to the Special Report and gave it to me.
    
    Can you say "entrapment"?
    
�She then went
�    on to talk about being on some SPECIAL COMMITTEE (I really have to find
�    out what this is. The DCU couldn't possibly be using resources to campaign
�    could it?) 
    
    It's possible.  It's also possible they are doing it on their own time. 
    Afterall, the G's look like a committee.  And we know they aren't using
    their employers' time and resources to campaign.
    
�I informed her it was against DIGITAL policy. She
�    said it wasn't because she was a DCU employee. I told her the policy was
�    explicit and I would bring her a copy. I then went and made a copy of
�    that section and took it down to her with the relevant section highlighted.
    
    I thought some exceptions to Digital policy had been made with regards
    to this campaign.

    
    Re: .1
    
    > Can you say "entrapment"?
    
    You really ought to understand the terms you use.  This is not
    entrapment.  Entrapment means that you misrepresented yourself
    in such a way as to encourage the person you entrapped TO TAKE
    AN ACTION THEY OTHERWISE WOULD NOT.  There is absolutely nothing
    unethical in what Dave did and clearly the person took no action
    that she didn't have reasons of her own to take.
    
    Steve
    

"Entrapment?"  Get real.  

The DCU charter expressly restricts employees of the credit union
as regards they're participation in an election, vis:

      Article VI.

       Section 9.  Subject to state and federal law and regulation,
       present credit union employees (including the president/CEO)
       shall not be eligible to serve on the nominating committee,
       nor shall they take part, during normal credit union business
       hours, in any credit union election or campaign actively at
       any credit union location to which they have access solely by
       reason of their credit union employment.

So....

Dave entered the credit union during normal business hours.  An
employee of DCU "campaigned actively" within a credit union location
to which this person had access soley by reason of their credit
union employment.

If this is not a clear cut, unambiguous violation of DCU's Bylaws,
then I don't know what is.

Chris

Here's entrapment:

  Undercover Cop:  Can I by some of those drugs from you?
 
  Thug:  I don't know.  Are you a law enforcement officer?

  Undercover Cop:  Heck no.  Will you sell 'em to me?

  Thug:  You sure you ain't no cop?

  Undercover Cop:  I ain't no freaking cop, buddy.  We gonna
                   do business or what?

  Thug:  Well, ok.  Here they are.


Here's NOT entrapment:

   DCU Member:  I hear there's an election going on.  Got in any info?

   DCU Employee:  Sure, here's everything you need to know.

   DCU Member:  By the way, I'm running for the Board, and what you're
                doing is outside the scope of policy and I intend to
                report it.

    Maybe not even that is entrapment.  More like this:
    
    Cop:  Can you get me some drugs?
    Person: No.
    Cop:  Oh, c'mon, you must know somebody who can get drugs, and you
    	  can sell them to me.
    Person: No.
    Cop:  Could you look around, just as a favor to me, and see what you
    	  can do?
    Person: Leave me alone!  I don't want to sell you drugs!
    Cop:   PLEASE man, I need 'em.
    Person: Oh, what the hell.  [asks his friends, finds some drugs, brings
    	   them to the cop the next week.]  
    Person: Here.
    Cop:   You're under arrest.
    

    What I don't understand is, isn't there any type of "governing body"
    for credit unions that this can be reported to?
    
    (BTW, everyone I've given the "flyer" to read (along with the rebuttal
    of course) are just amazed at the, how shall I say it nicely....lack of
    "judgement" exhibited by it's printing)
    
    

    
    Re: .5
    
    This is a very good description of true entrapment.  The "victim"
    must be encouraged to do something they normally wouldn't.
    
    Steve
    

    Re .-1
    
    Exactly. And incidentially I talked to a friend in the cafeteria and he
    knew little about the DCU until he got the ballot. Went down to the DCU
    and asked them for info on the elections. He got exactly what I got.
    They should not be doing this.
    
    Dave

�    You really ought to understand the terms you use.  This is not
�    entrapment.  Entrapment means that you misrepresented yourself
�    in such a way as to encourage the person you entrapped TO TAKE
�    AN ACTION THEY OTHERWISE WOULD NOT.  There is absolutely nothing
�    unethical in what Dave did and clearly the person took no action
�    that she didn't have reasons of her own to take.
    
    He specifically asked her for information.  He said she went into the
    back to get it.  She wasn't handing it out to everyone who walked in. 
    It wasn't on display.  He had to ask for it.

re .9

Yes, that's true, he did ask for information.  But, if the employee that he
approached wanted to satisfy his request without risking violating any rules she
could have just handed him the flyer with the collection of candidate statements
that was included in the ballot mailing.

Rich

    
    Re: .9
    
    > He specifically asked her for information.  He said she went into the
    > back to get it.  She wasn't handing it out to everyone who walked in. 
    > It wasn't on display.  He had to ask for it.

    That is quite correct, BUT unless you intend to question Dave's version
    of what happened, she willingly, without hesitation, or objection of
    any kind, gave him the information he asked for.  There was no need on
    Dave's part to coax her or encourage her to be doing anything she
    did not want to do.  The bylaws SPECIFICALLY PROHIBIT CREDIT UNION
    EMPLOYEES FROM DOING THIS ON CREDIT UNION TIME AND FROM ANY CREDIT
    UNION BRANCH.  There is good reason for this.  The DCU perse must
    always at least appear to be impartial.  Individual employees may have
    and profess any opinion they want as long as it is not done in such a
    way as to imply anything other than their personal views.  If you don't
    get what the point, Keith, then there's no point in discussing it
    with you.
    
    Steve
    

RE: Note 791.0 by SMAUG::GARROD
    
>    So I just went down to the DCU branch and approached Patricia Hirst a
>    DCU employee. I said:

>    "Do you have anything about the DCU elections I can have?"
    
>    She said she did and went into a back room and came back with the attack
>    memo  stapled to the Special Report and gave it to me.

This should be reported to the NCUA, a DCU officer, and the nominating
committee.  This is NO doubt an infraction.  If the material come from
DCU, was delivered by DCU paid for carrier, etc., then we have
'DCUGATE'...

If DCUGATE were looked into enough, we might think that WHITEWATERGATE
is nothing in comparison...

	- mark

    
    oh bogus!  forget all the entrapment stuff...
    
    I was just in the DCU, and was asked by an employee if
    I had gotten my ballot.  I said yes, she asked if I planned
    on voting. I said yes.  She then gave me the Please vote 
    for... paper stapled to a copy of the special report.
    
    I didn't think of asking who this handout was from :-).  She
    did say that here was some info on the people running...
    
    Amy

    
>This should be reported to the NCUA, a DCU officer, and the nominating
>committee.  This is NO doubt an infraction.  If the material come from

    I would suggest the Supervisory committee rather then the nominating
    committee. The Nominating committee really doesn't have much to say
    once it's made it nominations. The Supervisory committee has some year
    round clout however.

    			Alfred

Gosh - I feel slighted. I've been wearing my old bright red "Real Choices"
button for the past few weeks, and everytime I walk into a branch, I can
barely get them to say "Hello" to me . . . 

-Jack

         <<< Note 791.4 by AOSG::GILLETT "Running for the DCU Board" >>>


>Here's entrapment:

>  Undercover Cop..........

	A nit. The scenario described is not entrapment under the law.


Jim (former cop)

               <<< Note 791.9 by PATE::MACNEAL "ruck `n' roll" >>>

>    He specifically asked her for information.  He said she went into the
>    back to get it.  She wasn't handing it out to everyone who walked in. 
>    It wasn't on display.  He had to ask for it.

	Asking for it does not constitute entrapment. She was obviously
	prepared to violate the Bylaws and required absolutely no coercion
	to do so.

	In all intances of this type, the DCU employee should be subject
	to disciplinary action, possibly resulting in termination. Just
	as a Digital employee would be subject to the same actions for
	a blatant violation of the P&P.

Jim

    
    
    There's a stack of the famous DCU handout right at the door of the DCU 
    branch in the mill..you can't miss it (on your way in or out)..
    
    They might not be handing them out, but they are there for people to
    pick up. (I was going to pick up the whole stack..:-)  )
    
    
    Nisreen

	I would be interested in hearing what action the current DCU BoD
	plans on taking concerning these violations of the DCU Bylaws
	by employees of the DCU.

	At the very least I would expect that an emergency Board meeting
	would be called to discuss the issues raised and what actions
	should be taken by, or against, DCU Management and the employees
	in question.

	If no action is taken, I would certainly be inclined to personally
	ask the NCUA to begin a full investigation into these activities.


Jim

I'm not sure why/how getting the NCUA involved in a matter concerning
violation of P&P would be of any benefit. I think the board has a
responsibility to ensure that DCU management is dealing with the issue
in a manner which they (the board) feel is appropriate. Period.

It isn't the board's place to demand a public lynching of a branch manager
or a teller. It might be the board's place to correct Chuck for failing
to deal with the matter if he chose to (not) do so.

-Jack

    The flyers are now being destributed in the MRO4 branch (just picked
    one up).
    
    FWIW -- the copy of the "DCU Special Report" is a reprint.

I went into the DCU at DCO to do some business.  I noticed what appeared
to be a box of the 'election material' from the committee.  After conducting
my business, I went over to the branch manager, and asked if she had any
election material (I noticed she also had a box of the stuff).  She pointed
to the counter (on my end, though there was no material then), but then reached 
back to the box of stuff I noticed, and handed me a copy, which included the 
Special Report stapled to it.  It was what I read about in this conf., from The 
Committee for a Qualified DCU Board.

I asked where she got it, and after starting to answer, she asked what I 
meant.  I asked how she got it, and she kinda said it was from some committee.
I asked how she got it, did it some from up north.  She said (and in my view
the more we talked, the more evasive she became, IMHO) that it was sent
from up north, I said "from DCU Headquarters" and she said yes.

On my way out, she said they were normally on the front counter, and I stopped
and said 'I think this is a violation to hand these out'.  She got very
defensive, and pointed out 'you asked for it, I have witnesses...'.  I 
didn't mean to accuse her of anything but only to state an opinion, but I 
guess I did sound accusatory.

Mark

Sounds like Chuck chose to ignore the message Alfred spoke about in 794.1.

-Jack

>    <<< Note 791.19 by COMET::PERCIVAL "I'm the NRA, USPSA/IPSC, NROI-RO" >>>

>	I would be interested in hearing what action the current DCU BoD
>	plans on taking concerning these violations of the DCU Bylaws
>	by employees of the DCU.
>
>	At the very least I would expect that an emergency Board meeting
>	would be called to discuss the issues raised and what actions
>	should be taken by, or against, DCU Management and the employees
>	in question.
    
    I have received no notification of any meeting, telephone or otherwise,
    concerning this activity by DCU and its employees.  I also do not
    expect any such meeting to occur.  At Tuesday's Board meeting, the Board
    decided to move our next Board meeting until AFTER the election.  Any new
    Directors will have 24-48 hours to prepare.
    

Wow!  I wish I had had the time to catch up on this conference before now.
I can add one more data point.  When I went to the DCU branch in DAS (Andover) 
yesterday, there was someone handing out "The Committee for a Qualified DCU
Board" literature.  I did not recognize her as a DCU employee, nor at that time
was I aware of the controversy.  Nonetheless, after reading the handout, I 
immediately filled out my ballot for the "Three Gs" and dropped it in the mail.

Elliott

    
    As I think about this election, and watch everything going on, I
    have to ask myself a few questions:
    
    	"Is the birth of a credit union always this painful?"
    
    	"Why is the thought of being a credit union so 'dangerous'?"
    
    	"Why are DCU employees getting put right in the middle of this
         AGAIN?"  (far, far more than they were too years ago)
    
    	"Didn't DCU management learn ANYTHING 2 years ago?"
    
    	"Why would such 'qualified' people need to issue trash material?"
    
         "Aren't their resumes good enough?  Aren't their ideas good enough?"
    

re: .-1

>    	"Why are DCU employees getting put right in the middle of this
>         AGAIN?"

This is the one that bothers me the most, I think.

I like these people. I do business with them on a daily/weekly basis.
The Us vs. Them friction that I feel at this time of the year when I walk
into the branch really inhales. The oddest thing is, I can't see how
they stand to lose so clearly if one side or the other is victorious.
My sense is that a DCU employee should really see little difference
immediately.

-Jack

    Re .-1
    
    The reason I believe the DCU employees are so anti Phil, Chris and
    myself is because I believe they have had strong communications on DCU
    HQ on how BAD for the credit union we would be. This is very
    unfortunate because as can be seen from my own personal statement and
    the joint statement we believe in a very customer/owner focused credit
    union. That is ONLY possible through happy, motivated employees. The
    employees are essential to our vision for a true credit union.
    They have absolutely nothing to fear if we are elected.
    
    I'm also troubled by the fact that they are being encouraged to
    distribute literature for only some of the candidates.
    
    The reason that makes me think that the employee involvement in the
    election is orchestrated is because employees in different locations
    give extremely similar responses to people when they are challenged
    for distributing partisan literature.
    
    I think it is poor judgement on the part of the senior management in
    the credit union to put the employees in this predicament.
    
    By the way one DCU HQ employee I would like to compliment is Pat Coyle.
    Pat was responsible for working with all the candidates prior to the
    ballots being mailed. She oversaw getting the statements and was
    responsible for working with the publisher/printer in getting the
    ballot leaflet layout done and the photographs done processed. I had several
    phone calls with Pat throughout this process and she was ALWAYS
    extremely courteous and helpful. I am also happy with the resultant
    candidate statement insert and I think the quality of this has a lot
    to do with Pat's work.
    
    The way I was handled by Pat is in contrast to the way I am handled now
    by DCU HQ. On identifying myself I am told that the only people who
    can address any concerns I have on the election process are Mary Madden
    and Charles Cockburn. And of course they weren't available when I
    called and didn't return my phone call today.
    
    Dave

    I have not asked any questions about elections or even looked at or for
    any literature while in the DCU - just do my transaction and leave -
    but it sure feels cold in there these days.
    
    This looks like it has been thuroughly planned by the party in power.
    
    The DCU employees got "profit sharing".  Now these three Gs and the
    "handfull" of wackos that are following them are "attacking" the people
    who provided that profit sharing.  If you were an employee in such a
    position who would you be inclined to side with?
    
    (note: just for clarity, that "wacko" comment was sarcasm and/or a
    projection of what "they" are being lead to believe about "us")
    
    This sort of subtlty combined with some communication from HQ to make
    sure all the employees "know where they stand" could easily lead to
    this sort of stuff.  
    
    They have been lead to believe we are all out to get them.  That's sad
    because I'm convinced that, once power returns to the owners, life in
    and around DCU will be much better for everyone concerned.

    	
    For reasons of confidentiality I cannot disclose specifics in this area,
    but I can guarantee DCU employees that they don't have all of the facts
    on the people they are supporting.  If I were allowed to disclose very
    specific information with regards to Board votes, discussions, and my
    position on employee bonuses and rewards the employees chins would hit
    the ground.  They would see who has fought FOR them and who has fought
    against them.  Enough said.
    
    The DCU employees I have meet are very good people.  I have serious
    doubts about how they are being lead.  Whoever is responsible for this
    organized attack on candidates for the Board by DCU employees has
    caused severe, and possibly irreparable, damage to the image and
    credibility of the credit union itself.  Many people have sent me mail
    questioning the integrity of the entire election process after seeing
    all this going on.  Whoever has done this should be held accountable for
    their actions.  I hope the DCU Supervisory Comm. acts quickly to put a
    stop to this ongoing damage to the credit union.
    

�    	"Why are DCU employees getting put right in the middle of this
�         AGAIN?"  (far, far more than they were too years ago)
    
    Who says they are being put there?  Do you have evidence to suggest
    that they are being forced by their managment to vote a certain way? 
    Perhaps the Three G's stand on employee bonuses has something to do
    with this.

This morning myself,. Phil Gransewicz, and Dave Garrod went to 
DCU World Headquarters in Maynard to see the president.  He didn't
know we were coming - we showed up unannounced to see if we could
"chat" about a few things.

Well, they were more than happy to see us.  In fact, they brought
in Mary Madden and Alan Prindle as well.  Here's the outcome of 
the meeting:

1.  Chuck says he has advice from counsel that restricting his
    employees from handing out literature while they are on their
    breaks is an illegal restriction of their rights.

2.  The word has gone out - presumably twice by the time you
    read this - that literature regarding any candidate is not
    to be left laying around on tables.

3.  Any candidate - or their supporters - are free to hand out
    their literature in any branch, with the proviso that they
    do not interfere with the conducting of business, do not
    harrass customers, and hand out materials in a  non-confrontational
    manner.

4.  Chuck says that he has not received any notification from Digital
    regarding DCU employees handing out literature in the cafeterias.

5.  Chuck says that the rule about campaigning withing 100 feet of
    a credit union location was a Digital Equipment Corporation rule
    that they (Digital) rescinded after DCU tried to use it.


So, there you have it.  Chuck did say that the only property DCU owns
is its headquarters, and that Digital policies apply to any of the
property on which the branches are located.  

Hmmm......

Chris

    
>4.  Chuck says that he has not received any notification from Digital
>    regarding DCU employees handing out literature in the cafeterias.

    The Digital DCU liaison committee was sent a memo last Thursday.
    Hopefully Chuck will receive it tomorrow when he meets with them. 
    I am at a lose to explain why they did not inform him of it earlier.

>So, there you have it.  Chuck did say that the only property DCU owns
>is its headquarters, and that Digital policies apply to any of the
>property on which the branches are located.  

    I'm told that Digital is willing to allow DCU some latitude inside
    the branches. Which sounds reasonable.


    			Alfred

    
    Also of note, when we arrived at DCU HQ, a copy of the flyer stapled to
    the "DCU Special Report" was laying on the table in a general area.  A
    woman was sitting there and I inquired whether she had read it.  She
    had.
    
    On my way back, I stopped at the Mill.  Again, materials were out in
    the general distribution area.  This time they were tucked into the DCU
    rate comparison brochure.  I handed the stack to the teller and
    explained to her that according to DCU President Chuck Cockburn this was a
    violation of DCU policy and of the Bylaws.  (He also indicated that
    employees that still did this were subject to reprimand or dismissal and I
    didn't want that to happen to anybody over this stuff.)  We were informed
    they had already been instructed about this (presumeably when they
    started) but it seems somebody didn't get the message or didn't obey it. 
    
    Time to take some vacation and get a tan in those sunny DCU branches. 
    I look forward to meeting everybody there!
    

re: .32, Chris

>1.  Chuck says he has advice from counsel that restricting his
>    employees from handing out literature while they are on their
>    breaks is an illegal restriction of their rights.

So, this would indicate that the by-laws are n error?

>2.  The word has gone out - presumably twice by the time you
>    read this - that literature regarding any candidate is not
>    to be left laying around on tables.

I presume this applies only to tables within the branches?

So, they can hand out supporting literature in the branches, but not
leave it lying around passively? What sense is there in this?

-Jack

    .28:
    
�    by DCU HQ. On identifying myself I am told that the only people who
�    can address any concerns I have on the election process are Mary Madden
�    and Charles Cockburn. And of course they weren't available when I
�    called and didn't return my phone call today.
    
    Don't they have a phone at home?
    
    Dick

�>1.  Chuck says he has advice from counsel that restricting his
�>    employees from handing out literature while they are on their
�>    breaks is an illegal restriction of their rights.
�
�So, this would indicate that the by-laws are n error?
    
    The bylaws do not prevent DCU employees from campaigning, provided they
    do it on their own time which is, I believe, what Chuck said.

re: .35

>re: .32, Chris
>
>>1.  Chuck says he has advice from counsel that restricting his
>>    employees from handing out literature while they are on their
>>    breaks is an illegal restriction of their rights.
>
>So, this would indicate that the by-laws are n error?

I'm not a lawyer (heck, I don't even play one on TV), so I wouldn't
want to comment for certain about the legality or illegality of
the by-laws.  Chuck made a big deal about how they had to do this
only on their lunch hours and breaks, and Mary Madden made a big
deal about how when breaks occurred wasn't predicatable since it
was all based on traffic flow and the branch manager's discretion.

I'm sure it would be easy for anybody to get a lawyer to say that
their are "possible legal problems" with doing something.  

>>2.  The word has gone out - presumably twice by the time you
>>    read this - that literature regarding any candidate is not
>>    to be left laying around on tables.
>
>I presume this applies only to tables within the branches?

Presumably.  We limited our discussion to only that over which
DCU has complete control.  They govern the branches.  Digital
controls the rest of the place.  

>So, they can hand out supporting literature in the branches, but not
>leave it lying around passively? What sense is there in this?

Beats the heck out of me too, Jack.  I don't know.  It would be
much easier for all parties concerned just to have copies of
everything laying around for all to see.  However, they've made the
rules, and they claim to be very interested in enforcing them.  
I'm not looking any gift horses in the mouth.

Chris

    
    re .37:
    
    Chuck's counsel's advice would seem to contradict the applicable bylaw,
    which states:
    
      "...present credit union employees...shall not...take part, during
      normal credit union business hours, in any credit union election or
      campaign activity at any credit union location to which they have
      access solely by reason of their credit union employment."
    
    The bylaw seems to say that DCU employees will not campaign from
    8:30 to 4:00 (ie, "normal credit union business hours"); it does
    not say "unless you're on a break."
    
    Unless one holds to another interpretation, it would appear that either
    the bylaw or the counsel is in error.
    
    

    
    It is not only a matter of who, it is a matter of WHERE.  Early in this
    election we were given a written message on DCU paper by a DCU employee
    that stated there was no campaigning allowed within 100 feet of a
    branch.  Mr. Cockburn now claims that was a DIGITAL policy.  I have
    seen nothing on Digital letterhead to back that statement up.
    
    In several instances over the last week, we asked to have materials at
    branches at were denied.  
    
    Needless to say, I hope a court doesn't end up providing us all with
    the real interpretation of this Bylaw.  The wording of this Bylaw was
    approved by DCU's General Counsel and approved by the NCUA.