Conference 7.286::dcu

    Hmmm.  IMHO, FWIW and all that ...  I agree with DCUs position on this.
    I recall working at a bank that had the same position -- post-dating
    checks doesn't work.
    
    Steve

re: .0

I feel for you.  In some states, Texas for instance, it is illegal to post-date
a check.

A general rule of thumb concerning checks...if it isn't MICR encoded on the
check, the bank never knows it exists.

Bob

    Random data point. My mother in law receives pension checks that have
    a date on them. The date on them is later than the date they are
    mailed. Also usually later than the day they arrive.

    Two other interesting details. She is retired from a large Wall Street
    bank. One would assume they'd know the rules and act on the up and up.
    (Or one would like to. :-)) Second point, DCU will not let her deposit
    those checks until the date on them.

    		Alfred

    But she shouldn't have been charged TWICE for the bouncing of ONE
    check -- not unless they informed her between tries to collect it.
    
    If the DCU doesn't agree with that position, then they should change
    their fee schedule to specify a charge of $30 for a check that is
    over limit.
    
    Frankly, I don't see why the charge is even $15 -- it sounds punitive
    to me.  Shouldn't service charges at a credit union be related to the 
    cost of providing the service?  "All the market will bear" surely
    shouldn't be the guiding rule, unless the DCU is really a bank.
    
    	Larry

    It is fairly routine that a bounced check is redeposited once. This
    actually gives people the benefit of the doubt (the deposit was in
    transit when the check was first presented for collection). As has
    happened to me a couple of times (when there was an error in my
    checkbook) the first notice arrives just as the second collection is
    attempted. Both outside banks involved charged me for both attempted
    collections at $12.50 each try, plus the vendor charged me for her returned
    check fee of up to $20. So one NSF check cost me $45 additional. 
    
    It's no different than anyplace else, and I agree with the position. 
    
    Linda  

	Re. .0

	Did your wife inform the crafts class folks that she is giving them
	a post-dated check, and that they should not cash it until October?

	If yes, they are at fault too for accepting the check in the first 
	place and then trying to cash it. 

	If not, your wife is at fault for writing a post-dated check. 
	Accept it as a lesson learnt and pay up the fine. 

    Thanks to all for your rapid responses.  Re: .3, very interesting.  DCU
    certainly is aware/guarded about accepting post-dated checks! Re: .6,
    yes, my wife did inform the recipient that they would be receiving a
    post-dated check.  It was "...no problem..." In fact, she did it with
    them last year for the same craft fair with... no problem!  We've
    post-dated many times before and never had any difficulties.  I would
    never present a post-dated check for cash or deposit.  I guess we're
    from the old "trust" school... live and learn.
    
    I got a voicemail message from DCU today.  Called them back and
    couldn't reach the person working this issue.  Meanwhile, I decided to
    check the account balance to see if anything new had transpired.  Low
    and behold, it appears that they made 2 transactions!  One, a deposit
    of $2.18 (must have been a transfer from our other sharedraft account)
    to bring the balance back up to $0 to cover the first NSF $15 charge,
    and, then a $15 deposit which appears to be the first NSF charge.  So,
    now there's a balance of $15... $2.18 more than when this whole thing
    started (less, of course, the $40 post-dated check that shouldn't have
    been cashed under the mores of yester-year anyways...)!!  If they're
    gonna waive both NSF $15 fees in return for us agreeing to let the
    post-dated check stand cashed, and cover the other $51, we'll probably
    bite.  The only problem will be convincing the store to mitigate any
    charges they may throw at us.  Shouldn't be as difficult as the DCU!!
    
    I hate wasting time on penny-ante stuff like this, but, I guess life is
    messy... We certainly won't be doing much if any post-dating of checks
    in the future!
    
    Thanks to all for your opinions/help.
    
    If the DCU responds differently than I've anticipated, I'll let you
    know.

    this shoulda been where some balance in the corresponding savings
    account would save your butt from all the fees....you might still
    be miffed about the post dated check but you sure wouldn't be out
    all the phoney baloney charges they stick you with when a check
    bounces.....
    
    I sympathize...been there before, am just as mad whenever this
    once in a five year type of deal happens to me and they charge the
    crap out of me!

I sympathize - but never postdate a check that you can't
cover.  The people that attempted to cash the check (which
is not legally a "check" until the date written on it)
are probably legally liable for the fees that you
incurred; mention that to them and see how they feel
about forking over around $50.00 in fees for a $40.00
check - perhaps they'll be more careful in the future
(assuming you ever do this again).

re Note 699.0 by ABACUS::CARLTON:

>     She receives the first bounce notice over a week
>     after the occurence and after the second attempt at payment, so
>     notification was not in time for us to figure out what happened and do
>     anything about it.
  
        This is a pet peeve I have (not just with DCU) about banks'
        notification by mail in case of a problem like this.

        I would be willing to pay for a phone call (like many people,
        I have an answering machine) as well as get written
        notification so I can correct the problem as soon as
        possible.

        Bob

	Knowingly presenting a check not backed by sufficient funds is
fraud.  Be lucky that it's only costing you fees.  (And be greatful
that the amount wasn't over $100 - fraud over $100 is a felony.)

				--Doug (with relatives in banking)

        <<< Note 699.11 by WAYLAY::GORDON "Paste, now with oat bran!" >>>

>	Knowingly presenting a check not backed by sufficient funds is
>fraud.  

	Legally, a post dated check is a promissory note. If the person
	receiving the "check" agrees to the terms there is no fraud
	involved.

Jim

�	Legally, a post dated check is a promissory note. If the person
�	receiving the "check" agrees to the terms there is no fraud
�	involved.

	A bank is not required to honor the check date.  In fact, if you read
the little disclosure brouchure that DCU just put out you'll discover that
(paraphrased):

1) DCU reserves the right to dishonor an instrument more than 60 days old. They
   might still cash it though.  After all, I'll bet a lot of checks go through
   early in the year with dates a year old because of mistakes.

2) DCU reserves the right to honor post-dated checks before the date on the 
   check unless you notify them otherwise (different time limits for verbal &
   written notification) and you must give them sufficient information to
   identify the check.

	For a number of years I dated my checks with the Julian date.  None were
ever refused even though I doubt most people knew what the numbers in the date
field meant.

	A check is a negotiable instrument.  A promissary note is not.  You
should also be aware that even with a stop payment order outstanding, a check
is still negotiable and could theoretically still be cashed after the stop 
payment order expires.  DCU now issues stop payments orders in 6 month increments
so theorectially the check would also be stale after that point but see point
1 above.  The only time I needed a stop payment on a DCU check was six years
ago.  At that time, the fee was $3.00 (now $15.00) and the order was only good
for 3 months.  Back then, most financial institutions considered a check viable
for a year instead of 6 months.

	As I implied in my previous note, I have family in the business in MA.
I'm not just playing shithouse lawyer here, I have done some asking and had
reason to investigate the law for my own needs.  (Issuing a stop payment on a
check for a purchase can get you afoul of the fraud laws as well.) It's my 
understanding that a post-dated check is viable before before the date on the
check.  I know for a fact that knowingly presenting a check not backed by 
sufficient funds is fraud under the law, at least in MA.  While what you claim
about post-dated checks might be true for Colorado, I'd be really careful about
trying to use that as a defense.

						--Doug

Many times I have heard from reliable sources that a post-dated
check is legally a promissary note.  And, indeed, financial
institutions treat it the same as a check.  All of which
makes me want to avoid the whole issue altogether in my
banking.

        <<< Note 699.13 by WAYLAY::GORDON "Paste, now with oat bran!" >>>

>	A check is a negotiable instrument.

	A post dated check is technically not a negotiable instrument
	either.

	Think about it, if you write on a piece of paper "I promise to
	pay Joe Fabeetz, 10 dollars on October 1st 1993" it's called a 
	promissory note.

	Using a pre-printed form issued by your bank for this purpose
	does not change this fact.	

>	As I implied in my previous note, I have family in the business in MA.
>I'm not just playing shithouse lawyer here, 

	I would expect that people in the banking business would want to
	tell people that post dated checks are illegal, immoral, cause all
	sort of ugly skin diseases, etc. This does not make it so. They
	are a bad idea but only because banks, using OCRs instead of 
	humans, no longer screen for the date.

	Again note that if the recepient agrees to take a post dated
	check, there is no fraud. You have merely prmosed to pay at a later
	date (AKA given a promissory note). Bankers would rather you didn't 
	because they can actually be held liable if they cash such a check
	before the due date.


Jim