Conference 7.286::dcu

    I believe that is due to IRS reporting regulations and not a fault of
    DCU.
    
    Is DCU an employee benefit for our overseas facilities?  If it is,
    perhaps something could be worked out from that end.

	If this is true, than this makes DCU different from a bank.  You do not
need a social security account number to open an interest bearing account at a
bank.  However, if you don't provide them with one, they must withhold 20% of 
the interest they pay you.

Mark

               <<< Note 476.1 by PATE::MACNEAL "ruck `n' roll" >>>

>    Is DCU an employee benefit for our overseas facilities?  

	Since it is not an employee benefit in the States, I would
	doubt that it would be overseas.

Jim

He can't get a SSN, but he can get an taxpayer ID, which will also satisfy
the IRS and DCU.  They just need some way to track the tax due and nail
somebody with it.

Perhaps the DCU should provide non-interest-bearing accounts for people who
don't want to mess with taxes.  Now there would be a service with a
reasonable profit margin, although perhaps very little demand.

	Paul

  Re:.2
>	If this is true, than this makes DCU different from a bank.  You do not
>need a social security account number to open an interest bearing account at a
>bank.  However, if you don't provide them with one, they must withhold 20% of 
>the interest they pay you.

   This is no different from any other bank.  When I first came here to the US
   I didn't have a SS number and the bank that I tried to open an account
   with (a commercial bank) refused to open an account for me.  That was 15
   years ago so things haven't changed.  Once I had a SS Number there was no
   problem.  Don't blame DCU for this.  These are banking regulations (or IRS
   regulations).

		Danny

>  Re:.2
>>	If this is true, than this makes DCU different from a bank.  You do not
>>need a social security account number to open an interest bearing account at a
>>bank.  However, if you don't provide them with one, they must withhold 20% of 
>>the interest they pay you.
>
>   This is no different from any other bank.  When I first came here to the US
>   I didn't have a SS number and the bank that I tried to open an account
>   with (a commercial bank) refused to open an account for me.  That was 15
>   years ago so things haven't changed.  Once I had a SS Number there was no
>   problem.  Don't blame DCU for this.  These are banking regulations (or IRS
>   regulations).

	No, they aren't.  That was the point of my reply.  They must either
get a taxpayer ID number (usually SSAN for individuals), OR withhold 20% of the
interest they pay you.  They will then issue you a statement at year-end showing
how much interest they paid you, and how much (if any) of that was withheld.
You count the part that was withheld as taxes already paid when you file your
return.  Many people that don't really need your SSAN would seem to like you
to believe otherwise.  I verified this information again last August when I
opened an account at a local bank in response to the "More Choices" brochure.

Mark

    Of course, the other problem that exists, is that the DCU doesn't want
    to know about foreign credit history. We moved here (ZKO)from Overseas,
    opened accounts, applied for a gold visa, and were turned down. Even
    confirming information from our foreign bank wouldn't convince the DCU
    that were had good credit history. (Whereas at the time we had none in
    the U.S.)
    
    Amusingly, I applied for a service merchandise store card at the same
    time, (Where they advertised, 1 major Credit Card (Amex)  and a driver's
    license is all you need) No credit history so they bounced me, A few
    weeks later a form letter comes from TRW explaining why I was bounced,
    The following day, I get a letter from TRW (Which they picked up from
    the Amex lists) offering me TRW Credentials Service because of my good
    credit history....  arrgghhh!
    
    

    My husband is British and I am American.  We wanted to open an account
    at DCU to keep money in for  when we visit the US.  Also we wanted to
    work out a way of getting a VISA card from the US because of the lower
    interest rates.  We were received very positively by a woman who worked
    at the Mill DCU branch.  However, she did say we needed a social
    security number as that was how they kept track of bank accounts.  I
    didnt know if she meant they used the number as the account number or
    what.
    
    We went to the Department of Social Security, where we were informed
    that as it was not our intention to live in the US at this time, that
    my husband was not intitled to a social security number.  I told them
    that DCU said we needed to apply for one for "banking purposes" only. 
    She then handed me a preformed letter addressed to The Bank manager
    informing them that as my husband was a foreign national and not
    entitled to a social security number they would need to for go this
    request and open an account without the SS number.  We have that letter
    around somewhere, if I dig it out I will write in here exactly what it
    says.  But in a nut shell the SS people told me the banks could not
    demand for him to have a social security number.  We decided in the end
    not to open an account at DCU at that time, as there was so much bad
    "vibes" coming out from sources about the Credit Union "creditability". 
    As a former worker from DCU at Parker Street myself, it sadden me that
    things had not improved since I left!
    
    I hope this adds some value.  I think however, that foreign nationals
    will find other large banks happy to do business with them with credit
    reports from there home country.  Professional, international banks do
    this all the time.
    
    Paula

    Re .8:
    
>   My husband is British and I am American.  We wanted to open an account
>   at DCU to keep money in for when we visit the US. ... However, she did
>   say we needed a social security number as that was how they kept track
>   of bank accounts.  I didnt know if she meant they used the number as
>   the account number or what.
    
    Banks and credit unions ARE required to ask for a Taxpayer ID number,
    which for individuals is the Social Security Account Number.  The
    simple solution is to open a joint account and use *your* SSAN to
    identify it.  (Unless you've NEVER held a job in the U.S. AND you have
    been out of the country for more than a few years, you should have one.)
    
    If you were to attempt to open such an account NOW, you'd have to file
    a request with the IRS for a Taxpayer ID number.  The initial paperwork
    for the account would indicate that the number had been applied for,
    and you'd be responsible for providing the number when you receive it. 
    The financial institution is subject to a fine for each account that
    lacks a taxpayer ID/Social Security number.

    .9> Banks and credit unions ARE required to ask for a Taxpayer ID number,
    .9> which for individuals is the Social Security Account Number. 

    Maybe I'm out-of-date, but I thought that when the Social Security
    system was setup in the '30's, there was fear that the numbers would be
    used as a national registration system (i.e. US open frontier vs.
    registration systems in facist states). Thus the law specifies that the
    numbers are not to be used elsewhere.
    
    Well for convenience and cross-identification :-( many systems want to
    use your SS nr. However even the Mass Dept of Motor Vehicles permits you
    to use another number.
    
    Recently Lotus backed down from selling CD's w/ individuals' info after
    much protest from computer users. I think that TRW (credit reporting
    co.) was forced to allow people to examine their file, due to protest
    over incorrect data. Besides the cross-checking by authorized
    orgainzations, there is much selling of info by IRS & police personnel
    who wish to increase their income.
    
    478.21> As I have mentioned in another note, I worked at DCU a few
    478.21> years ago.  I believe from having seen what went on there that
    478.21> the real reason they want the street address is so they know
    478.21> where to find you.  ... 
    478.21> As Credit reporting companies rely on addresses to keep track of
    478.21> people, banks make a point of collecting this data and passing
    478.21> it on to them.
    
    I wonder if the DCU transfers info on all it's members; and if so, is it
    done as a courtesy to the credit-checking companies, or for cheaper
    rates on it's credit checks, or if it gets a fee.

    I cant say for certain whether they get a fee.  When you work in a bank
    the credit reporting tool has extremely strict guidelines which must be
    obeyed.  For instance, by putting in your social security number (the
    easiest form of tracking as it is unique), I would get a report that
    tells me everything about you.  It tells me all your addresses, all
    versions of your name ever used.  It tells me all payments made 15 days
    late, 30 days late, 45 days late etc.  It tells me about bounced
    checks, comments from credit agents and banks.  Now in simple terms, if
    the Banks and Credit unions etc. didnt give this information out, where
    else would these agenices get it.  As Banks & CU depend on this
    information to make judgements, I will go as far to say it is in their
    favor to put this information in on everyone.  I think that people
    should think long and hard about what information they write down, as
    from what I have seen with my own eyes, they see EVERYTHING.  I refuse
    to give my social security number out.  I also dont give out my maiden
    name, reason, I dont want these agencies having that kind of
    information!!  If I want a mortgage and a bank wants a reference, let
    them call my banks etc. and get a personal reference, not one that is
    computer generated and could possibly be incorrect or for a different
    person (I feel bad for the John Smiths of this world\!!!).
    
    I believe that you can keep yourself honest with the IRS for accounts
    by filing the tax information yourself.  Everything I have seen has
    said that you are not obliged to give your social security number out
    except to the few government agencies where it is used.  Everytime you
    fill in a credit card form etc. I can assure you that the information
    is easily logged on to the TRW, again because your SSN is unique.  It
    takes more effort to log if they have to check by address and name
    (although they use zipcodes then to track the addresses).
    
    I think consumers should take hold of Consumer Protection acts etc. and
    demand from banks & cu to see their files!) Interesting that here in
    England it is easy to get around the few credit agencie;s they have
    because computer evidence cant be used against you!)
    
    
    
    IMHO
    
    Paula

It is against federal law to REQUIRE the social security number for
anything but Social Security.

It is NOT against the law go USE the social security number for other things.

any institution that wants you ssn, should be willing to give you a different
number instead.

grins,

clark.

    If you really want to anger them, just invoke the Privacy Act of 1974. 
    

I hate dangling references...

what does the privacy act of 1974 say??

grins,

clark.<

>what does the privacy act of 1974 say??

	I'm not sure but I think that was the act that required anyone who
	asked for your SSN to cite the legislation that allowed them to ask
	for it.

			Alfred

    
    I think the Privacy Act was the basis, for example, on which the Mass
    Registry of Motor Vehicles must supply you with a driver's license
    number that is different from your SSN, if you so request.
    

    The Privacy Act only applies to government agencies (like the Mass.
    Registry).  A non-government business (like DCU, or your local
    supermarket) is probably not affected, and is probably free to
    turn your business away if you don't provide it.
    
    The Privacy Act states that a government agency must cite its
    authority (i.e. applicable laws) to ask for your SSN, say if you
    are required to provide it, and what problems/penalties arise
    if you don't provide it.  
    
    >Mark

    Re .17:                  
    
>   The Privacy Act only applies to government agencies (like the Mass.
>   Registry).  A non-government business (like DCU, or your local
>   supermarket) is probably not affected, and is probably free to
>   turn your business away if you don't provide it.
    
    Actually, the Privacy Act of 1974 ONLY applies to U.S. Government
    agencies.  There is separate legislation that specifies the proper use
    of the Social Security Account Number.  The SSAN is only REQUIRED for
    actions affecting one's Social Security account (such as starting FICA
    withholding when one is hired), as an individual taxpayer ID number
    (both the IRS and state departments of revenue are authorized), and as
    the service number for members of the U.S. military.
    
>   The Privacy Act states that a government agency must cite its
>   authority (i.e. applicable laws) to ask for your SSN, say if you
>   are required to provide it, and what problems/penalties arise
>   if you don't provide it.
    
    This is a good synopisis of the Privacy Act statement that must
    accompany EVERY request for personal information by federal agencies. 
    The other half of the act requires the agencies to protect such
    information from unauthorized distribution.
    
    What's frightening is that Massachusetts and most other states have no
    analogous privacy act to prevent state agencies from selling selected
    lists of drivers, voters, et al, to all takers.  (I was appalled to
    discover that the various armed services' recruiters routinely purchase
    lists of high school graduates and 18-year-old drivers as a starting
    point for their efforts.)

The following contains information about Social Security Numbers and
    why you might be careful with it.
    
    	- mark
    
From: [email protected] (Chris Hibbert)
Newsgroups: alt.privacy
Subject: FAQ: SSN  [lu 7/25]
Date: 23 Aug 91 23:08:01 GMT
Organization: Xanadu Operating Company
 
 
[recent changes: buying a house, added 7/25]
 
 
Many people are concerned about the number of organizations asking for
their Social Security Numbers.  They worry about invasions of privacy
and the oppressive feeling of being treated as just a number.
Unfortunately, I can't offer any hope about the dehumanizing effects
of identifying you with your numbers.  I *can* try to help you keep
your Social Security Number from being used as a tool in the invasion
of your privacy.
 
Surprisingly, government agencies are reasonably easy to deal with;
private organizations are much more troublesome.  Federal law
restricts the agencies at all levels of government that can demand
your number and a fairly complete disclosure is required even if its
use is voluntary.  There are no comparable laws restricting the uses
non-government organizations can make of it, or compelling them to
tell you anything about their plans.  With private institutions, your
main recourse is refusing to do business with anyone whose terms you
don't like.
 
 
                            Short History
 
Social Security numbers were introduced by the Social Security Act of
1935.  They were originally intended to be used only by the social
security program, and public assurances were given at the time that
use would be strictly limited.  In 1943 Roosevelt signed Executive
Order 9397 which required federal agencies to use the number when
creating new record-keeping systems.  In 1961 the IRS began to use it
as a taxpayer ID number.  The Privacy Act of 1974 required
authorization for government agencies to use SSNs in their data bases
and required disclosures (detailed below) when government agencies
request the number.  Agencies which were already using SSN as an
identifier were allowed to continue using it.  The Tax Reform Act of
1976 gave authority to state or local tax, welfare, driver's license,
or motor vehicle registration authorities to use the number in order
to establish identities.  The Privacy Protection Study Commission of
1977 recommended that the Executive Order be repealed after some
agencies referred to it as their authorization to use SSNs.  I don't
know whether it was repealed, but that practice has stopped.
 
 
The Privacy Act of 1974 (5 USC 552a) requires that any federal, state,
or local government agency that requests your Social Security Number
has to tell you three things:
 
1:  Whether disclosure of your Social Security Number is required or optional,
 
2:  What law authorizes them to ask for your Social Security Number, and 
 
3:  How your Social Security Number will be used if you give it to them.
 
In addition, the Act says that only Federal law can make use of the
Social Security Number mandatory.  So anytime you're dealing with a
government institution and you're asked for your Social Security
Number, just look for the Privacy Act Statement.  If there isn't one,
complain and don't give your number.  If the statement is present,
read it.  If it says giving your Social Security Number is voluntary,
you'll have to decide for yourself whether to fill in the number.
 
 Private Organizations
 
The guidelines for dealing with non-governmental institutions are much
more tenuous.  Most of the time private organizations that request
your Social Security Number can get by quite well without your number,
and if you can find the right person to negotiate with, they'll
willingly admit it.  The problem is finding that right person.  The
person behind the counter is often told no more than "get the
customers to fill out the form completely."
 
Most of the time, you can convince them to use some other number.
Usually the simplest way to refuse to give your Social Security Number
is simply to leave the appropriate space blank.  One of the times when
this isn't a strong enough statement of your desire to conceal your
number is when dealing with institutions which have direct contact
with your employer.  Most employers have no policy against revealing
your Social Security Number; they apparently believe the omission must
have been an unintentional slip.
 
 Lenders and Borrowers
 
Banks and credit card issuers are required by the IRS to report the
SSNs of account holders to whom they pay deductible interest or when
they charge interest and report it to the IRS.  If you don't tell them
your number you will probably either be refused an account or be
charged a penalty such as withholding of taxes on your interest.  When
buying (and possibly refinancing) a house, most banks will now ask for
your Social Security Number on the Deed of Trust.  This is because
Fannie Mae (FNMA?) recently started requiring it.  The fine print in
their regulation admits that some consumers won't want to give their
number, and allows banks to leave it out when pressed.  [It first
recommends getting it on the loan note, but then admits that it's
already on various other forms that are a required part of the
package, so they already know it.  The Deed is a public document, so
there are good reasons to refuse to put it there, even though all
parties to the agreement already have access to your number.]
 
 
 Insurers, Hospitals, Doctors
 
No laws require medical service providers to use your Social Security
Number as an ID number.  (except for Medicare, Medicaid, etc.)  They
often use it because it's convenient or because your employer uses it
to certify employees to its groups health plan.  In the latter case,
you have to get your employer to change their policies.  Often, the
people who work in personnel assume that the employer or insurance
company requires use of the SSN when that's not really the case.  When
my current employer asked for my SSN for an insurance form, I asked
them to try to find out if they had to use it.  After a week they
reported that the insurance company had gone along with my request and
told me what number to use.  Blood banks also ask for the number but
are willing to do without if pressed on the issue.  After I asked
politely and persistently, the blood bank I go to agreed that they
didn't have any use for the number, and is in the process of teaching
their receptionists not to request the number.
 
 
           Why use of Social Security Numbers is a problem
 
The Social Security Number doesn't work well as an identifier for
several reasons.  The first reason is that it isn't at all secure; if
someone makes up a nine-digit number, it's quite likely that they've
picked a number that is assigned to someone.  There are quite a few
reasons why people would make up a number: to hide their identity or
the fact that they're doing something; because they're not allowed to
have a number of their own (illegal immigrants, e.g.), or to protect
their privacy.  In addition, it's easy to write the number down wrong,
which can lead to the same problems as intentionally giving a false
number.  There are several numbers that have been used by thousands of
people because they were on sample cards shipped in wallets by their
manufacturers.  (One is given below.)
 
When more than one person uses the same number, it clouds up the
records.  If someone intended to hide their activities, it's likely
that it'll look bad on whichever record it shows up on.  When it
happens accidentally, it can be unexpected, embarrassing, or worse.
How do you prove that you weren't the one using your number when the
record was made?
 
A second problem with the use of SSNs as identifiers is that it makes
it hard to control access to personal information.  Even assuming you
want someone to be able to find out some things about you, there's no
reason to believe that you want to make all records concerning
yourself available.  When multiple record systems are all keyed by the
same identifier, and all are intended to be easily accessible to some
users, it becomes difficult to allow someone access to some of the
information about a person while restricting them to specific topics.
 
 
 
                What you can do to protect your number
 
If despite your having written "refused" in the box for Social
Security Number, it still shows up on the forms someone sends back to
you (or worse, on the ID card they issue), your recourse is to write
letters or make phone calls.  Start politely, explaining your position
and expecting them to understand and cooperate.  If that doesn't work,
there are several more things to try:
 
1: Talk to people higher up in the organization.  This often works
        simply because the organization has a standard way of dealing
        with requests not to use the SSN, and the first person you
        deal with just hasn't been around long enough to know what it
        is.
 
2: Enlist the aid of your employer.  You have to decide whether
        talking to someone in personnel, and possibly trying to change
        corporate policy is going to get back to your supervisor and
        affect your job.
 
3: Threaten to complain to a consumer affairs bureau.  Most
        newspapers can get a quick response.  Some cities, counties,
        and states also have programs that might be able to help.
 
4: Tell them you'll take your business elsewhere (and follow through
        if they don't cooperate.)
 
5: If it's a case where you've gotten service already, but someone
        insists that you have to provide your number in order to have
        a continuing relationship, you can choose to ignore the
        request in hopes that they'll forget or find another solution
        before you get tired of the interruption.
 
 
If someone absolutely insists on getting your Social Security Number,
you may want to give a fake number.  There is no legal penalty as long
as you're not doing it to get something from a government agency or to
commit fraud.  There are a few good choices for "anonymous" numbers.
Making one up at random is a bad idea, as it may coincide with
someone's real number and cause them some amount of grief.  It's
better to use a number like 078-05-1120, which was printed on "sample"
cards inserted in thousands of new wallets sold in the 40's and 50's.
It's been used so widely that both the IRS and SSA recognize it
immediately as bogus, while most clerks haven't heard of it.  It's
also safe to invent a number that has only zeros in one of the fields.
The Social Security Administration never issues numbers with this
pattern.  They also recommend that people showing Social Security
cards in advertisements use numbers in the range 987-65-4320 through
987-65-4329.
 
 
The Social Security Administration recommends that you request a copy
of your file from them every few years to make sure that your records
are correct (your income and "contributions" are being recorded for
you, and no one else's is.)  The statute of limitations for getting
corrections without either an "obvious error on the face of the
record" or good proof of earnings is 3 Years, 3 months and 15 days.
The reason for this (the 3 years, not the 3 months and 15 days) seems
to be that details are only kept for earnings in the last 3 years and
older earnings are lumped together.  Call the Social Security
Administration at (800) 234-5772 and ask for a "Request for Earnings
and Benefit Estimate Statement".
 
-- 
[email protected]
uunet!xanadu!hibbert
    

    The 800 number has been changed.  The new number is 1-800-772-1213
    
    /debi