Conference 7.286::dcu

I ran into this same problem many years ago when the DCU first went on 
ATMs.  The only ATMs that the DCU could give you any help with is DCU's 
own ATMs.  It is up to the other banks or the ATM service to resolve 
problems with their links.  One of the reasons the DCU switched to CIRRUS 
was because the PLUS SYSTEM was so notorious for being down on weekends.  
For the DCU to be able to respond to ATM down queries they would have to 
have someone work the weekends or have some kind of stand-by and all the 
other banks involved would have to be staffed.  Would we 
want to pay for this kind of service, full weekend coverage by a DCU 
employee and a 800 number?  I tried to get the DCU to provide us members 
with an after-hours number for the PLUS SYSTEM but was told they had no 
such thing.  I doubt that CIRRUS would have any kind of trouble-shooting 
staff after-hours either.

The ATM process works as such from a non-DCU branch.

The ATM machine you use talks to the bank's computer.
If that computer doesn't have a tie in to the requested bank then it 
forwards the request to the ATM service.
The ATM service locates it's server to the requested bank and forwards the 
request.
The requested bank finally gets the request and processes it.
Then the denial or permission is transmitted back.

These steps can go through any number of computers throughout the US 
therefore there are many possibilities for interruption.

An old PLUS SYSTEM example.

I request a withdrawal from a CHASE MANHATTAN ATM in downtown NYC.
That ATM talks to the local branch computer which forwards the request to 
the CHASE ATM server computer in NJ.  Then the PLUS SYSTEM computer 
recieves the request on it's computer in NJ.  This system does not know 
about the DCU so it forwards the request to the central computer in 
Colorado Springs.  This system find the proper PLUS SYSTEM server in BOSTON 
and forwards the request.  The BOSTON PLUS SYSTEM sends the request to the 
DCU which finally handles the request and sends the response in the reverse 
direction.

A lot of places for failure don't you agree and the PLUS SYSTEM was always 
having failures.  I don't know if the CIRRUS system is any better because I 
got a local bank for my cash needs.  Also the ATM charge when using a 
non-DCU ATM is imposed by the ATM service not the DCU.  Most larger banks 
eat this cost or pass it on in other ways (ie monthly service charges, high 
miniums, lower returns)

In short if you fail in a transaction at a non-DCU ATM there are many 
sources for the problem.

re:    < Note 144.1 by HAMER::JILSON "Door handle to door handle" >
   
>      I tried to get the DCU to provide us members 
>with an after-hours number for the PLUS SYSTEM but was told they had no 
>such thing.  I doubt that CIRRUS would have any kind of trouble-shooting 
>staff after-hours either.
 
    CIRRUS does have a 24-hour 800 number (1-800-4-CIRRUS);it's designed
    to provide the closest ATM to where you're phoning from. I never
    tried to report a down ATM to them; perhaps they would forward such
    information to the member bank (or at least tell you where is the next
    closest CIRRUS ATM). I was under the impression that PLUS offered
    a similar locator service. Also, many proprietary ATM networks,
    such as BayBanks' Xpress-24, have direct-connect phones at their
    ATM's.
    
>     The BOSTON PLUS SYSTEM sends the request to the 
>DCU which finally handles the request and sends the response in the reverse 
>direction.
>
>A lot of places for failure don't you agree and the PLUS SYSTEM was always 
>having failures.  I don't know if the CIRRUS system is any better because I 
>got a local bank for my cash needs.  
    
    CIRRUS offers member banks the option of providing their customers
    a minimal amount of cash, say $50, if the member bank's computer
    is unavailable to approve/deny the request. Given DCU's check-hold
    policy, I'd never expect the DCU to trust its members enough to
    offer this feature.
     
>    Also the ATM charge when using a 
>non-DCU ATM is imposed by the ATM service not the DCU.  Most larger banks 
>eat this cost or pass it on in other ways (ie monthly service charges, high 
>miniums, lower returns)
 
    This has been discussed elsewhere in this file. Suffice it to say,
    other (smaller!) credit unions are able to offer a better checking
    account (no monthly service charges, lower or no minimums, higher
    returns) and free CIRRUS access. 

>    CIRRUS does have a 24-hour 800 number (1-800-4-CIRRUS);it's designed
>    to provide the closest ATM to where you're phoning from. I never
>    tried to report a down ATM to them; perhaps they would forward such
>    information to the member bank (or at least tell you where is the next
>    closest CIRRUS ATM). I was under the impression that PLUS offered
>    a similar locator service. Also, many proprietary ATM networks,
>    such as BayBanks' Xpress-24, have direct-connect phones at their
>    ATM's.

These services are DEC-TALK like.  You call them they tell you to key in 
the areacode and then it tells you a location.  Most of the time it doesn't 
have the latest info about ATM loactions.  Also the direct connect phones 
have been known to respond with "our buisness hours are ..." when used 
off-hours.  Also from my experience the local banks can only tell you if 
their ATM system is up and possibly if their connection to an ATM service 
is OK.

re:    < Note 144.3 by HAMER::JILSON "Door handle to door handle" >
   
>These services are DEC-TALK like.  You call them they tell you to key in 
>the areacode and then it tells you a location.  

 
    You're right! The last time I called CIRRUS (about 18 months ago)
    there was a live person at the other end.
    
    Interesting side note: I just queried the system for the CIRRUS ATM 
    nearest (508) 772-xxxx (Ayer, MA). The four choices it offered in
    successive order:
    
    1. BayBanks Xpress-24, Main St., Groton
    2. BayBanks Xpress-24, Great Rd., Littleton
    3. Co-operative Bank of Concord, Main St., Groton
    4. Co-operative Bank of Concord, Great Rd., Littleton
    
    ATM's 1 and 3 are within 100 ft. of each other; 2 and 4 are similarly
    close. Logically, it should have offered 1 and 3 before even mentioning
    Littleton, which is a bit further away. Why was 2 suggested before 3?
    
    BayBanks is part-owner of CIRRUS.
    
    Another instance of sly software at work....

>   Another instance of sly software at work....

Or no one cared when they put the info in.

    re: -1
    
    Perhaps. But I'd bet BayBanks machines are always listed first for any
    location where other banks' ATM's are nearby. It's similar to how their
    ATMs are programmed: The first menu choice always include balance info
    with that option (FastCash: $ and balances; Finish: Receipt and
    balances; etc.). CIRRUS charges member banks a higher transaction fee
    when balance info is also transported. 
    
    One could argue both examples are random, but I think it's analagous to
    which brand of cereal is at eye level, and which is at shin level. 

    I tried 800-4CIRRUS with (508) 486 (LKG, Littleton, MA).  My results
    do not show any bias towards Baybank:
    
    1. Xpress-24, Concord Cooperative Bank (sic), 272 Great Rd, Littleton
    		[actually Cooperative Bank of Concord]
    2. Xpress-24, Lowell 5c Savings Bank, Brookside Road, Westford
    3. PocketBank, Purity Supreme Store, Split (sic) Brook Road, NASHUA NH???
    4. Xpress-24, Baybank, 74 Main St, Groton MA
    
    From that and .4, I conclude that their data about what's nearby
    is pretty inaccurate.

    Perhaps the (800) number seems more useful when you really need
    it.
    
    I was on vacation las summer in north eastern Arizona, in an area
    that is not well populated. I needed some more cash, and called
    the number. It gave me a bank in the same town. I was really
    greatful, it also gave me directions that were adequate for me who
    did not know my way around there.
    
    I felt that the service was a great boon.
    
    It is easy to argue the merits of such as service when you don't
    need it. I for one am very glad about it.
    
    Len
    

Sure the number is great when the branch it gives you can give you money.  
But when you try all the banks it gives you and still cant get through what 
then.  They major ATM services NEED an 800 line to report troubles after 
hours and on weekends.  I spent an entire weekend in the Lancaster PA area 
trying every bank I could find that had a PLUS SYSTEM symbol with no luck.  
When I notified the DCU about my problems they replied that the PLUS SYSTEM 
wasn't even aware of it.  I guess that's why we switched to CIRRUS.

Jilly

    Are we supposed do be able to get money at _ANY_ CIRRUS machine?
    I was in western NY and other people were able to get money...
    but not me...hmmmmmm
    
    amy

>    Are we supposed do be able to get money at _ANY_ CIRRUS machine?
>    I was in western NY and other people were able to get money...
>    but not me...hmmmmmm

Yes you should be able to get money from the DCU from any CIRRUS machine if 
the DCU and CIRRUS are talking to each other at that point in time.

re -1 and -2
Your card may be bad.  Mine would not work last year in florida but
the error message on the tube told me that it could not read my card.

Fortunately, my wife was there with her card, same account and it worked.

DCU promptly replaced my defective card.