Conference 7.286::dcu

    Yes, a credit union can offer a credit card.  I believe there are
    some rules (state vs. federal accredited credit unions) on which
    can and which cannot.  I also belong to the Progressive Consumers
    Credit Union (from a previous life) and they offer both Visa and
    Mastercard.
    
    /bruce

        However, as a shareholder (who happens to have Visa and Master
        Card from other sources), I'd expect the DCU to get into this
        business only if they can offer the service effectively at a
        reasonable cost.  Most of the credit companies make almost all of
        their profit by charging relatively high interest rates; it's not
        clear that the DCU could do otherwise and break even, and if it
        wasn't more cost effective to use DCU than some other credit
        vendor, people wouldn't sign up. 
        
        I'd love to see a "no annual fee" Visa from DCU.  An alternative
        that might make sense would be a "debit card", which looks just
        like a Visa or MasterCard, but the charges are deducted directly
        from an interest-bearing account, instead of being billed on a
        monthly basis.  Then, you would have an overdraft credit line on
        the account.  This can be just as convenient as a credit card (in
        terms of recognition and acceptance), but can be administered by
        the DCU at a lower cost. 
        
        Tom

    As Tom said, DCU shouldn't be in the business of bank cards
    if it can't make any money off of it.  After all, it's just
    another loan program.  I'm not enough of an expert in the area
    to know whether Tom's comments regarding cost and volume
    are accurate.  But I recall reading somewhere that some banks
    are in the business of "wholesaling" bank card services to smaller
    instititions.  If this is true, perhaps DCU can offer a competitive
    program to its members by limiting the "markup" it adds to
    finance charges to cover its reduced cost (note that the wholesaler handles
    some portion of the maintainence chores for DCU).
    
    Brian

A Massachusetts Credit Union group was looking into setting up a single 
bank card operations group to get the volumes required to make a profit.  I'm 
not sure if they ever got it off the ground, but, as I remember the numbers, it 
looked good on paper.

 

    My VISA is from New Mexico Educators Federal Credit Union (My dad
    was a schoolteacher in Albuq.)
    They charge 17.75% APR and no annual fee.  I assume they're getting
    a cut of the interest. It's services by a firm (bank?) in Tampa
    Florida.  
    
    Don't see why DCU doesn't offer this yet. Perhaps they're still
    trying to cure other ills and don't want to compound the problem.
    Doing it might not be in their best interest...
    
    (sorry...I couldn't resist)
    
    Gil
    

The Polaroid Employees Federal Credit Union offered VISA cards 
with typical interest rates but without annual fees.  That lasted
about three years; it's now 18 % (I think, but I don't incur!) 
and $20 per year.

    I would like to see the DCU come up a real credit card to replace the
    Diners Club Card that was issued to those of us who travel. When I ask
    at various places if they take Diners Club, nine times out ten they do
    not. What use is a credit card if most places we go to will not accept
    it, we still must have a personal credit card to cover the gap. If DCU
    does come up with a credit card it would be useful to have two account
    numbers/cards, one for business and one for personal charges.
    
    Bob Cleary
    Software Services
    Piscataway, NJ 

        
        re: .-1
        
        Good point.  If you then added the capability to have expense
        reimbursal checks directly deposited to the charge card, it
        could make things very easy.
        
        I've been with the University of Michigan's Credit Union and
        have had their VISA card for three years.  There's no annual
        fee and finance charges have been under 15%.
        
        One would think DCU has as many members as UMCU.

    Another nice feature would be to make payments electronically using
    the touch-tone system or an ATM. 

    Brian

    
    DCU has a credit account, called CRT.
    there is no card, it is a checkbook loan.
    It also provides overdraft protection on your 
    checking account.
    
    When I applied, they had a 5,000 limit.
    I'm pretty sure the APR is 16.5 %

						JC    
    

    Yes DCU does have CRT but who wants to carry that checkbook around
    all the time?  Besides, there is no 25 day grace period when you
    write the check.  Interest starts the day it reaches DCU which can
    get pretty costly.
    
    This is not a good alternative to a credit card.

    

    re: .-1
    
    Most Vias/Mastercards work the same way - if you use your credit
    for a cash advance there's no grace period.
    
    						Trace

        
        The VISA at my credit union (U of M) also works the
        same way, not just for cash advances but for all charges.
        Does anyone know if this is the case with all credit union
        credit cards?
        
        Rob

Right, so Steve Wright's question:

	Can I use Visa to pay my Mastercharge ?

The answer is

	Yes...for awhile anyway

The idea is, you use your cash-advance feature on Visa to get enough
cash to pay your Mastercharge.  (get bank cheque, not real cash)

BUT, since there's no grace period, you accumulate some finance charge
on your Visa charge until next month when presumably you get a cash-advance
on your Mastercharge to pay off your Visa account.

Eventually, though, you'll run up so much finance charge that you'll
hit your credit limit.

Anyone care to figure out, with, let's say a $400/month shopping
expenditure, $5000 credit limit, 21% per year interest charge, how
long one could get away with paying one account with the other ?

/Eric

    Re: -.13
    
    The grace period is one of the variables set by the lending
    institution; my credit union VISA has a 25 day grace period on
    purchases; cash advances start the day they're posted. NOTE: some banks
    start the day of the transaction, regardless of the posting date.
    
    I suspect the no-grace-period is a trade-off for no annual fee and
    a sub 15% rate.  My CU has a $12 fee and a 15.5% rate.  What's best
    for you depends on how you use the card; if you carry a monthly
    balance all the time, grace periods don't matter.  If you charge
    alot but pay it all off every month, you might want to consider
    switching to a grace period, low-or-no fee card; the rate wouldn't
    matter as long as you stayed in the grace period EVERY month.  Money
    magazine had a very good article on credit card variables in their March?
    issue; it's worth reading.
    
    Jon
     
    

    For more information on tradeoffs between grace periods, annual
    charges, and interest rates, I would suggest that one contact the
    Bankcard Holders of America in Washington, DC. They are a consumer's
    organization which publishes very good information on how to figure
    out what is the best thing to look for to satisfy a person's unique
    credit needs. They also publish a list of the lowest interest rates
    for credit cards in the country, and a list of banks that have no
    annual fee.
    
    Kevin

    Another vote for BankCard Holders.  They sent a list of banks, the
    annual fee, the interest rate, and any limitations.  We applied
    for a couple of them and have received one for 11.5% APR and one
    for 15% APR (both $25.00/year)  Well worth the cost of postage.
         
    Perry

    Does someone have the address and phone number for BankCard Holders?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    /bruce
    

    BankCard Holders of America
    333 Pennsylvania Ave, S.E.
    Washington, DC  20003
    (202)543-5805
    
    I think it cost $1.00 for P/H, but you can call to check.
    
    Perry

                 <<< CEDARS::DUA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DCU.NOTE;1 >>>
                                    -< DCU >-
================================================================================
Note 27.0                     List(s) costs are...                       1 reply
NANUCK::FORD "Noterdamus"                             7 lines   5-MAY-1987 12:51
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    Re: .19
    
    Checked today and the price for each list (NO FEE and/or LOW INTEREST)
    is $1.50.
    
    
    JEF

    Carl Leeber
    {maintainer_of_batch_mailing_of_new_entries_to_DCU_BOD_Chair}

    re: .19
    
    The current address for BankCard Holders of America is:
    
    BankCard Holders of America
    Suite 1000
    460 Spring Park Place
    Herndon, VA   22070
    
    Telephone: 703/481-1110
    
    List is available for $1.50

	I sent away for their information (1 list has low annual fee
cards and the other has cards with low interest rates). I applaud
the existence of such a group; but, I'm not sure I want their
card when a subscription to their group totals $18.00 (essentially
the same as an annual fee).

Chuck

       I joined, you get a newsletter now and then. The lists are
    worthwhile. I got a MC at 11% They are no longer accepting out of
    staters however. I don't think I will renew for another $18 though.
                                                   Denny

    What happend to DCU being able to offer MasterCard/VISA.  I seem
    to remember reading a newletter a while back that said that this
    would be a new service offered by DCU.  Haven't heard anything since.
    
    Anybody know what's up?
    
    pjc

       They're probably planning a joint announcement of the Visa/MC
    and the California branches.
                                                  Denny

    July Input/Output announces DCU Visa: 10.9% APR, no annual fee till
    1990, applications available within 60 days.

       THis IS the lowest rate in the country. I currently have an 11%
    card which is currently the best. I'm Impressed!
                                         Denny

Wonder what the annual fee (When implemented) will be...

I wonder if they will be allowed to tap your various other accounts 
without consent if you overdraft your credit line, or if a merchant 
puts too big a 'hold' on your account (some rental car companies now 
put a $3K hold on your card if you don't take the C/D waiver), or if 
your card is stolen.  

Sometimes it pays not to borrow at the same place you save.

        I was wondering how the APR on the credit card can be so
        low, compared to other "unsecured" credit plans.  The interest
        on CRT (overdraft) loans and personal loans is over 16%.
        
        Maybe the DCU thought that if the APR on the card was around
        16%, there wouldn't be enough interest to sustain the program?
        
Jim Stratton
        

I wonder if they will offer checks drawn on the card account, like
other banks do 

    
    What will be the credit limit on this card?  $5K  +?
    And the cost for cash advances?  (i.e., to pay off 'other cards'?)
    

    I absolutely refuse to even consider a Visa or MasterCard which
    has, or ever will have, an annual fee.  There are too many around
    with none at all.  For instance, I have a USAA MasterCard with *no*
    annual or transaction fees and a floating interest rate which is
    currently around 13% and a $5000 limit.  If you are the type who
    keeps a balance and pays interest on your credit card then a lower
    interest rate makes sense.  But if you are like me and keep the
    thing payed off (wellll, OK, maybe not in January!) then the lack
    of fixed fees is more important.
    
    I'll post the 800 number for USAA if anyone is interested.
    
    	-- Art Z.

Hear Hear - to mention a few I have read about...first signature bank
in NH (a division of J.H) has no fee mastercard and vias - and CHASE
MasterCard - a 'full-feature' card, (CDWs, rebates on hotels and 
aitline tickets, etc)  is free if you charge $2400/year. 

Get with it DCU! 

    Re .33:
    
    I think the USAA Federal Savings Bank, which issues the USAA Master
    Card, limits itself to USAA and USAA-CIC members/policyholders.
    
    The United Services Automobile Association (USAA) was formed originally
    to provide automobile insurance to military officers.  It's grown a
    great deal over the years and now provides a full range of financial
    services over and above being a mutual insurance company.
    
    USAA membership is offered to all past and present officers of all
    branches of the U.S. military.  USAA-CIC provides a parallel set of
    insurance offerings to relatives of same (much as the DCU allows our
    relatives to join).  Thus far, USAA has succeeded in every area they've
    entered except for their USAA Gold Fund, which appears to be turkey.
    I have nothing but praise for their insurance business, though.

    re .35:
    
    I have a USAA Mastercard and have no other affiliation with the
    organization. I have received about 100,000 mail solicitations from
    them for insurance but have never bought any from them. 

    My guess is that the DCU will introduce its VISA with
    	
    	o no annual fee
    	o 5% advance fee
    	o 10.9% interest
    
    The catch?
    
    	o covered by your own Digital stock - this sets your credit limit
    
    Thus, the credit card would be a more expensive version of the other
    stock-covered loan they offer.
    
    Steve

    re: .37 "covered by your own digital stock" - WHERE did you get
    an idea like that? While DCU can make secured loans on stock, you
    have to give them your securities and a power of attorney for 'em.
    DCU is not a stock broker that can margin your shares, you know.

    I guess if you guarantee payment by depositing collateral (stock)
    then the interest rate should be as low as a secured loan. Sounds
    pretty clever, actually!
    
    	Rick
    	Merrill
    

    A teller at the Maynard branch told me 1000 DCU VISAs would be 
    distributed this fall to DCU members who met certain requirements.
    
    Would a DCU official reply with the exact requirements DCU is using
    to determine who will automatically receive the card?  Has anyone
    else heard this?  I would imagine .. account balances, whether or
    not the person has CD's, etc...
    
    The teller also indicated that if you were NOT one of the lucky
    few to automatically receive the card, it would be a while before
    you did...i.e., only 5 cards will be issued per month per branch
    location because of staffing needs.  Could anyone validate this?
    
    						thanks,  nancy b.

    RE: .39
    
    Since when can a bank or credit union send you a credit card that
    you didn't ask for? Perhaps what the teller meant to say was that
    1000 would be pre-approved for the VISA card and they can get one
    just by returning the pre-approved form. Once in a while I get a
    letter stating I have been pre-approved for such-and-such a card.
    But I don't think it is legal to send a credit card to someone who
    didn't request one.
    
    -Glenn-

     re : .40
    
     When discussing this with my father, he also questioned the legality
    of being sent credit cards "automatically".  I think the way it
    was put by the teller was that "people who meet certain qualifications
    would be sent...".  It was probably just an oversight on the teller's
    part.
    							nancy b.

    Well, I guess we must be one of the *lucky* ones.  We received our
    invitation (and it was an invitation, just like a wedding invite)
    in the mail this week.  We do have an equity line of credit, maybe
    that's why.  Anyway, the credit limits only go up to $3000, the
    interest rate is 10.9%, and no annual fee until 1990.  However,
    they did NOT promise to keep the same interest rate, nor did they
    state what they based the rate on (unless I missed it).  Instead
    they reserved the right to change the rate as they deemed necessary.
    
    Needless to say, I filed this *invitation* in my circular file
    immediately.

       Why? If they raise the rate, you can cancel the card or not use
    it. It IS the lowest interest rate in the country, as of now.
                                                        Denny

    Can somene who received the 'invitation' to get the Visa
    card please check and see if there is a grace period?
    
    This is the one thing that is not mentioned in any of the
    brochores that I have seen.
    
    Thanks,
    Amy

    re: .44	
    	Amy, sorry, I don't recall about the grace period.  And, the
    trash man hauled it away.
    
    re: .43
    	It may be the lowest rate in the country, but the rate I have
    is 11 1/2%, not that much higher.  I use my card all the time, even
    on business (how many places *really* take Diners Club?) and it
    would be a severe pain in the neck to keep changing banks.  Sometimes
    charges take months to appear on a statement.
    

    re .40
    Legal or not, I have received several unrequested cards in the mail.
    Discovery,   Mastercard and Visa.     Also get the pre-approved
    stuff all the time

    Also mentioned in the invitation were two types of card Classic
    ($12) and Premier Gold ($18), with absolutely no description of
    the differences.  And it also had some blurb about charging $2000.00
    net per year so that the annual fee will be waived.
    
    - Vikas

    It was mentioned to me that the rate would go up, for sure, in the
    near future.  She told me that this was a 'sweet' rate to get people
    involved.  The rate was going to increase, but she did not know
    by how much.
    
    I found this out after a lot of questions abotu the CRT-500 and
    credit card.
    
    	- mark

    I believe that there is a 25 day grace period except for cash advances,
    where the interest is charged from day 1.  The rate is to be reviewed
    in July at which time it could change.  I didn't see any mention
    of 2 different cards, but maybe I didn't read anything.  It did
    say that there is a $12 per year fee that is waived if you charge
    more than $2000 on it.
    

    For the record, here is the bulk of the text (and contents) of the
    "invitation" for your review. I got mine yesterday (8/24/88, Hudson,
    MA). 
    
    {A formal invitation on simulated parchment paper...}
    
    {front cover}
    
    "An Invitation..."
    
    {inside}
    
    "As a DCU member in excellent financial standing, you're invited
    to accept our pre-approved VISA Classic honored world-wide. DCU's
    new VISA Classic gives you prestige wherever you are. Our low interest
    rate and low annual fee make this a sound financial choice. To receive
    your new DCU VISA Classic, please complete and return the enclosed
    card."

    {on an invitation reply card (no simulated parchment paper)...}
    
    YES...
    
    {inside}
    
    "I accept your invitation to receive a DCU VISA Classic credit card
    and would like a credit line of:"
    
    "{box} $1,000  {box} $2,000  {box} $3,000"
    
    "I would like a second card on this account: {yes and no boxes}"
    
    "I/We agree this person is within DCU's field of membership, related
    by blood, marriage, or adoption, and is jointly responsible for any
    and all balances on this account."
    
    {followed by typical DCU account sign-up information including a
    selection of a code word "...for additional identification".}

    {back of reply card}
    
    "The 10.9% ANNUAL PERCENTAGE RATE is guaranteed through July 1, 1989.
    DCU's rates are set by the Investment Committee and may fluctuate.
    Rates will never exceed the statutory maximum. You will be notified
    15 days in advance of any rate change. No interest is changed on
    purchases if you pay off the new balance within 25 days. Cash advances
    and VISA DRAFTS are charged interest from the date of the loan."
    
    "This VISA credit card may be subject to one or more of the following
    administrative charges: a card replacement fee of $5.00; a dishonored
    check fee of $12.00; a $5.00 fee for each stop payment order placed
    on a VISA DRAFT; a $1.00 transaction fee for each network ATM
    transaction; an overlimit fee of $5.00 if account balance exceeds
    the assigned limit; a $2.00 fee for each monthly statement, VISA
    DRAFT, sales draft or other document reproduced at you request."
    
    "The annual membership fee of $12 may be waived if you charge $2,000
    in net purchases during the year."
    
    {followed by the DCU Parker street address.}
    
    {an addressed, pre-stamped, invitation style reply envelope (again,
    simulated parchment paper) is enclosed.}

    This is the whole package, as I received it.
    
    Carl

    re: .50    
    
    Thanks for entering the text. Now I don't have to bother seeking
    out an application. 
    
    Who needs a card that encourages spending $2000 a year? 

>    
>    Thanks for entering the text. Now I don't have to bother seeking
>    out an application. 
>    
>    Who needs a card that encourages spending $2000 a year? 

this isn't unusual, Chase MC waives their annual fee if you charge 
more than $2400/yr ($200/mo), and offers a heck of a lot more benefits
than DCU ever will.

Anyway, who ever heard of charging for card replacement?

    I received a VISA card to replace my old Amoco Oil card, and threw
    it out (already have one).  I also recently looked at my credit
    report, and it reported the $1,000 credit amount from the unsolicited
    credit card!

    Who needs a 2.00 a month statement fee?

    Re .54
    
    Read it again.  It says that there is a $2 fee if you request a
    reproduction of your monthly statement (I guess if you have misplaced
    it and need a copy for something).  That is not the same as a $2
    fee for each monthly statement.

    Other companies do charge if you go over your limit
    on your credit card.  In fact, I just looked at an
    application where they were seriously bragging that
    they did not have such a fee.
    
    Amy

    Of course there's another group of us [ARE YOU LISTENING DCU?] that
    could get insulted for not receiveing an invitation for getting
    the card. 
    I've been with DCU sence it started.  Now I'm not saying that I
    want one of those cards, but it does sound like one of those big
    thank yous.
    
    It also sounds like they're probing our credit reports without our
    permission?  Is this ok?  what are ths possible rmafications?
    ed
    

    
    "...Rates will never exceed the statutory maximum..."

    Well, isn't that nice of them.  They're not going to break the law!

RE: .57
    
>    It also sounds like they're probing our credit reports without our
>    permission?  Is this ok?  what are ths possible rmafications?
>    ed
    

Probably are probing your credit report, and they don't need your permission
since any credit bureau will provide this information to legitimate businesses
upon request. A few months ago, just for grins, I got a copy of my credit report
which shows the list of inquiries made to your account.  Low and behold every
credit card solicitation I recieved had made an inquiry.  Ramifications, none!
Its legal. 

_Wayne

	If they're probing people's credit reports then something is very
strange here. 

	I got an invite in the mail yesterday.  I've only been with dec for 15
months and The day before I got my invite I got turned down for a mastercard
because I didn't have a "credit file."  So I'm not sure why DCU wants me but
it's certainly a great way to get a "credit file." 

					John 

    No, probing credit reports can NOT be done at random; at least not
    in Massachusetss and New Hampshire. Before a bank, credit union,
    or whoever can see your credit report, you must fill out and sign
    a form saying that they can see your credit information and then
    they send that form to the credit bureau. Or if you are sitting
    in person with someone who has a terminal connected to the credit
    bureau, you can give your verbal ok. I check my report usually once
    a year anyhow, and have never seen an unsolicited check on it.
    
    My guess about the DCU VISA cards is that they probed their own
    credit record that they keep on you. You know, average daily balance,
    # bounced checks, etc.
    
    -Glenn-

    While probing YOUR credit history is a federal felony if you do
    not give your permission, it is legal to ask a credit reporting
    agency to give a requestor a list of ``possible candidates'' who
    meet some set of criteria (not necessarily all) that are supplied.
    
    For example, it is perfectly legal to ask a credit agency for a
    list of names and addresses of all people who live in zip code 80919,
    are between 25 and 45, and have a mastercard that has not had a
    delinquent payment reported in the last 2 years.  This does not 
    give out any particular credit information (such as average 
    monthly billing or how timely or whether you were really delinquent
    and it wasn't reported), vital stats (such as your actual age or
    salary (which credit agencies don't know anyway)), anything actually
    ABOUT your personal credit history.  (The Zip Code is to determine
    where you live and what demographics there are about it).
    
    Pre-approved means that you meet the criteria of the search.  It
    does not mean that you can't be turned down for non-credit reasons.
    When you sign the card you send back, that authorizes the credit
    issuer to ask for YOUR personal credit history.  Then a ``loan
    arranger'' (sorry) decides whether you will be issued credit based
    on credit history and other factors (how long have you lived where
    you do, etc.).
    
    When you meet the match criteria, that is recorded in your credit
    history.  (in fact, BancOne uses number of type matches as a criteria
    on whether to match or not).
    
    BobW

    
    I had a couple of questions and gave DCU a call...
    
    Credit limit: Different folks are getting different mailings.
    	For instance, I got pre-approved for a $5K gold card;
    	must be 'cause I'm already steeped in credit - and almost
    	as much debt ;-). Anyway, $5K is the most they're offering
    	on pre-approvals. As of Sept. 19, you can apply for larger
    	amounts.
    
    Classic vs. Premier Gold: The usual sorts of differences: $100K
    	vs. $300K travel accident insurance, gold has 24 hour replacement
    	of lost card, etc. If you call and ask, DCU will send you a
    	sheet describing features of each card.
    
    Extra cards: Granted there's no fee until at least 1990, but I was
    	told that the fee is per-card. So unlike most other cards, it's
    	$12/$18 per card. The DCU person wasn't sure, but thought the
    	fee waiver was per-account rather than per-card. In other words,
    	2 cards would be $24/$36 per year unless the two card holders
    	charged a total of $2K.
                                                             
    						Trace

    Got DCU's info sheet on Class vs. Premier Gold. Here's the pertinent
    stuff. Remember, "there's no fee until 1990 or maybe never if your
    net purchases exceed $2,000 annually."
                                
    VISA Classic:
    o $100,000 in travel accident insurance automatically when tickets
    	are charged on any common carrier (airline, train, ship, or
    	bus).
    o Guaranteed reservations for late arrival at participating hotels,
    	motels and resorts.
    o Instant cash through the VISA ATM network
    o Minimum credit limit: $500
    o $12 annual fee
    
    VISA Premier Gold:
    o $300,000 in travel insurance automatically when tickets are
    	charged on any common carrier.
    o Guaranteed reservations for late arrival at participating hotels,
    	motels, and resorts. All participants can provide cash advances
    	up to $200 per stay.
    o Instant cash throuh the VISA ATM network
    o A replacement card in 24 hours
    o Minimum credit line: $5000
    o In addition, VISA Travel Service will provide:
    	A message sent anywhere in the world
    	Emergency cash at 10,000 locations, including Western Union
    		offices.
    	Auto rental/collision/loss damage waiver insurance
    	Medical and/or legal assistance
    	Lost luggage assistance
    	Pre-departure assistance
    o $18 annual fee
    
    VISA DRAFTS are available with all DCU VISA accounts, which may
    be used to pay-off credit card balances at other institutions.
    They may also be used at merchants that do not accept VISA, but
    will accept checks.
    
    Applications for VISA Premier Gold and Classic will be available
    in DCU branch offices by mid-September.
                                         
    						Trace

    This is an official response by Mary Madden of the DCU. The portion of
    that response, dated 15-SEP-1988, that applies to this note topic is
    included below. See note 2.22 for more information. 
    
    Whether you agree or disagree with the response from the DCU, please
    either direct your comments to the DCU directly (dtn-223-6735) or
    post your comments as a REPLY to this entry in this conference.
    
    Carl Leeber
******************************************************************************
    
******************************************************************************
        (Response to Note 15.37 to 15.40 and 15.63)
        
        1.  How is DCU's VISA program being conducted?
        
        DCU is offering a Premier Gold and Classic VISA card.  The 
        10.9% rate is guaranteed until July 1, 1989.  There is no 
        annual fee until 1990 and, maybe never if you charge over 
        $2,000 in net purchases each year.  Starting January, 1990, 
        the annual fee will be $18 per account for the Premier Gold 
        and $12 per account for the Classic.  DCU does not require any 
        collateral to secure a DCU VISA card.
        
        Mid-August, over 12,000 pre-approvals were mailed.  These 
        pre-approved members were selected based on internal criteria.
        
        We are very excited about offering a VISA credit card.  Since 
        it is a new loan product, we are anticipating a large 
        membership response.  Therefore, to provide the best service 
        and satisfaction to our members, we felt it necessary to limit 
        the number of applications available.
        
        Beginning September 19th, DCU will make applications available 
        on a limited basis.  Branches will have a weekly supply.  Once 
        the supply is depleted, members will have to wait until the 
        following week.

>>        Beginning September 19th, DCU will make applications available 
>>        on a limited basis.  Branches will have a weekly supply.  Once 
>>        the supply is depleted, members will have to wait until the 
>>        following week.
>>

But what about those of us who are over thousand miles from a branch office?

    
    							Trace

    
    I took a cash advance on my GoldDome VISA card this summer and there
    WAS a grace period.
    
    So not everyone charges interest from day one. Something worth knowing
    when choosing a bank.
    
    Roberta
    

	In previous notes, there was a discussion on the notification time that 
was given when the rate is increased. This is interesting. Do they have the 
right to raise the interest rates on all previous purchases and cash 
advances? This may present a real problem. How is this going to be handled?

Ted

        The typical credit agreement that you sign when you accept a
        credit card usually states that if the interest rate is adjusted
        upward, you will be notified, and if you make any new purchases or
        get additional cash advances after some specified date, then the
        entire balance outstanding is considered in calculating interest
        at the new rate.  On the other hand, if you quit using the card
        and just pay off the balance over time, then the rate stays the
        same.  Of course, the DCU could write the agreement so that they
        can raise the rate, and if you don't pay off the balance, interest
        is computed at the new rate.  After all, you have the choice of
        not having an outstanding balance by simply paying it off.
        
        Tom

	If you are in a field office, call the DCU hotline 223-8444 or
	508-493-8444 for an application. Call on Monday, first thing, as
	they have a limited number of applications available to be sent
	the same way the branches have a limited number available for 
	walk-ins.

	On the interest rate question and new purchases. If you have a
	$100 balance and charge $50.00 additional and DCU raises the
	interest rate.

	Pay off the total additional new charges and the interest rate on
	the old purchases/cash advances will stay at the old interest 
	rate.

	Pay off only a portion of the new charges and the TOTAL balance
	is then RE-financed at the new rate.

    I joined DEC about 6 months ago.  When I was in grad. school, I
    received all sorts of invitations to get credit cards even though
    my income was below poverty line and my bank account was always
    near empty.  Of course, with that kind of income, a credit card was 
    a luxury I could not afford....  Now I am working for a highly 
    respected company and I am earning a decent income, but all my 
    applications to a credit card have been rejected.  What gives here?
    Eugene
    P.S. Needless to say, I have not received an invitation to get a
         Visa card from DCU. 

    RE: .72
    
    Well, the question is: do you have any credit history? Have you
    ever borrowed money and repaid it? Lenders want to see that you
    now how to manage money, not just that you make good money.
    
    I think what most people do who want to establish credit is borrow
    a relatively small amount from a bank through a personal loan. Borrow
    say $500 or $1000 or so for a year and pay it back like clockwork.
    Some people even borrow the money and then use the money to pay
    back the loan each month. It costs you some money in interest but
    it seems to be the price you have to pay to establish some credit.
    I guess the lender wants to make sure that money doesn't burn a
    hole in your pocket and you have enough discipline to allocate enough
    money each month to pay your monthly bills.
    
    Once you eastablish credit like this, I bet you could get a credit
    card just by asking.
    
    -Glenn-

    
    Another approach is to apply for Sears and/or Gas company credit cards;
    they're generally easier to get.  Then use them and pay the bills
    regularly.
    
    The reason you got all those applications when you were in school was
    that the companies wanted to grab you as a customer because of your
    anticpated future earning (--> buying) power.  Silly but true.
    
    Beverly
    

    As to borrowing some money to establish a good credit record....
    I had a 3 year car loan, and paid it up in 5 months.  Does that
    count (it obviously did not count very much since all my applications
    were denied)?  In any case, I did not have any credit history when
    I was in grad. school either (not even the car loan), yet I got
    all sorts of offer.  Either way you look at it, it does not make any
    sense.
    Eugene

    RE: .75
    
    I believe what lenders want to see is the discipline with money
    over as long a period of time as possible. You had a 3 year car
    loan and paid it off in 5 months. To the lender, this could easily
    mean that you won some lottery money (or otherwise came into some
    extra cash) and was able to pay off the outstanding debt. Believe
    it or not, this doesn't do a great deal to show that you have
    discipline with money over more than 5 months. This really isn't
    all that far fetched. After all, you could be a dead beat trying
    to get money for nothing and they have no other proof to show otherwise
    except established credit.
    
    No credit history in grad. school: some credit card companies will do
    business with almost anybody (ever see those "guaranteed" credit card
    ads in TV guide and other places?). But for a price: things like high
    interest rates, high annual fees, other fees, a savings account to back
    up the credit used, etc. It usually takes an established credit history
    to get a lower interest rate (can you say "prime rate"?). 
    
    -Glenn-

    re: .72, .75
    
    You haven't told us why you were turned down.  Lenders are required
    to inform you, in writing, of the reasons for rejection.  If we
    knew the reason, we might be able to provide better advice.  It
    could have nothing to do with your credit history.
    
       Gary

    re .73 .74 .76 .77
    First I would like to thank you for all the information/advice you
    have given me.  As to what companies gave me offers of credit cards
    when I was in grad. school, they are actually quite respectable
    financial institutions (e.g. city bank), and no one asked me to
    get a savings account from them.  Granted the limit is low $1000,
    but it would have been a start.
    As to the reasons of rejection... 
    
    1.  Insufficient number of bank/financial references.
    
    I don't know where they got that idea.  I gave them the names of
    five banks.
    
    2.  Non-ownership of residence
    
    Can't argue with that.
    
    3.  Insufficient number of credit references.
    
    Isn't it the same thing as 1?
    
    4.  Length of residence at current address.
    
    I started my job here 6 months ago.  By the way, what does that
    have to do with a credit card?

    What made this particular rejection so ridiculous is that this 
    particular case is from the city where I attended grad. school in 
    Illinois.  The bank sent me an application form to apply for the 
    credit card saying that this card will bear the mark of I (logo of 
    the University of Illinois), and is particularly set up for the 
    newly graduated alumni.  So they knew before hand that I just moved to 
    MA.  Moreoever, how can they expect a new graduate to own a home?
        
    I came to this country about 8 years ago, and found myself adapted
    to the American ways pretty well, but I never quite understood this 
    "The more money one borrows, the more credit one gets".  In any
    case, I soon realized that I will have to borrow big money eventually
    (e.g. buying a house or something like that).  So I decided to go
    with "If you can't beat them, join them" :-) :-) :-).
                                 
    Eugene
                                                                    

    
    I never got any offers for credit cards when I was in school. But
    I had an account at a local bank that offered credit cards. My father
    also had an account there as well as their card. So he co-signed
    for me when I applied and based on his I was able to get a credit
    card. The other way to go is to try to get American Express.
    
    Regarding Credit Rating, I was once rejected for a credit card,
    I got a letter with the address of the Credit Bureau they used.
    I wrote them and asked for a copy, I found that I had a bad rating
    against a card that was stolen. I then called the bureau and asked
    them what can be done about it. They told me to call the co. that
    issued the card and ask them to fix it. I followed their advice
    and got it taken care of. It was quite painless. I was surprised
    at how painless it was. Not all situations may be this painless,
    but it's nice to know that there are some nice people out there
    who know the rules and are willing to help their customers.
    

    re: .78
    
>    1.  Insufficient number of bank/financial references.
>    
>    I don't know where they got that idea.  I gave them the names of
>    five banks.
>    .....    
>    3.  Insufficient number of credit references.
>    
>    Isn't it the same thing as 1?
    
    I believe that for #1, the credit card company is interested in
    banks where you do your banking -- savings, checking, etc., and
    not in credit references.  So #3 and #1 are not the same.
    
    They're interested in seeing that you know how to manage a checking
    account, and that your cash flow matches your income.  If your bank
    balance never goes above $100, then clearly somethings wrong.
    
>    4.  Length of residence at current address.
>    
>    I started my job here 6 months ago.  By the way, what does that
>    have to do with a credit card?

    Clearly this is a temporary condition.  They're interested in some
    stability.  If you move around frequently, then it can be a sign
    that you don't pay your rent, or a sign that they'll have trouble
    tracking you if you move after running up a big balance.  
    
    My understanding is that banks do a first cut on credit card
    applications by a point system.  Each of the above problems results
    in negative points.  Too many, and you're rejected immediately.
    No one of the above conditions is sufficient for rejection (except,
    perhaps, for lack of credit references), but the combination apparently
    is.
    
    One thing you can do at this point is to contact the person or office
    given on the rejection letter.  If you explain your situation, you
    may be able to convince them that it's worth looking beyond the
    rather mechanical process they use to prune applications.  In
    particular, you should ask them why they applied criteria that are
    inappropriate for recent graduates.  I presume they use different
    guidelines in such cases, because they understand the awkward situation
    of students entering the work force.
    
       Gary

    re .80
    Thanks, I will give it a try.
    Eugene

        We got our cards today; a co-worker got his Saturday.
        
Jim Stratton
        

    
    I got mine yesterday. Is there supposed to be a line of credit
    following it?
    
    	- Ramani Mangu
     

        re .83 and "line of credit following it" - I don't understand
        the question.  The cards were sort of "mounted" on a piece
        of thick paper that included some statement to the effect
        that the limit on the card is $5000.
        
        My wife asked a DCU representative, today, about getting
        a cash advance.  She was told it can't be done, because
        "the software" isn't "in place" yet.
        

    
    re .-1
        I guess I was referring to the cash advance. Yes, I too got
    a thick paper with a card mounted on it, except my limit was $1000.
    

    re: .84
    
    
    Since we can't get a cash advance because the software "isn't in
    place", does this mean that we don't have to pay the bill when it
    comes in?   :-)

    With reference to the problems of getting a card.
    
    I have been with DEC for about 2.25 years. About five months after I
    started I tried to get an America Express card. I was rejected for two
    reasons, 1, I didn't have a credit card history and 2, I hadn't worked
    for DEC long enough. I sent them a resume showing that I had two other
    jobs before DEC, each for 7 years. The last change was because the
    company I was working for had been acquired and everyone was being given
    a termination date. (The company that acquired us was only interested in
    our customers, we were their competition.) I also enclosed the name and
    address of the bank that just gave me a mortage. I told them that I
    just bought the house my mother-in-law lived in so she would not be put
    out on the street. This also involved a move of about 500 feet for my
    family. This was after I had lived 12 years at the former address.
    
    It seems that if I had stayed with the company that was going to lay me
    off instead of getting a job with stability I would have had a better
    chance of getting the card. BTW, I have paid off four cars and two
    furniture loans over the 12 years I lived in that house. I haves since
    had two other short term loans that have been paid off. 
    
    Hopefully the DEC Diners Club card that I have been using for the last
    two years will provide the credit card history. I am looking for the
    American Express because you have to pay it off every month, (like the
    diner Club) there is no temptation to over spend. But unlike the
    Diners Club, more places will accept it.
    
    					Bob Cleary 

        I was "invited" to get a DCU "Classic" card, but I was only
        interested in a Gold card, since I already have a Visa
        Classic card from another bank.  As a result I have to fill
        out an application.

        I am appalled by how difficult it is to get a Visa
        application from DCU!  It seems that one has to be at a
        branch at opening on Monday, or shortly thereafter.  At first
        I just assumed that there was a shortage of forms, but this
        is obviously deliberate.

        Why are they taking this approach to limiting their Visa
        business?  Are people who come to work bright and early on
        Mondays, but who can take a few minutes off at that time to
        go to the DCU office, better credit risks than people who
        might come to the office some other time? :-}

        Bob

    Gee, I just waltzed up and asked for AND GOT a Visa application
    for around 11:30 - maybe the teller recognized my name from the 
    bronze plaque at ML05-4?
                                                    
    Then again,
    I tried to get a form to change my withholdings from another branch
    and was told to come back on Monday too.  Maybe they read my mind
    and did not want me to reduce my withholding!  I'm appalled that
    they are so short on money as to resist my need for a few more take
    home dollars!
    
    	Rick
    	Merrill

    Call the 223-8444 hotline early Monday.  They'll send you an
    application.  (That's EARLY Monday!  DCU often reaches their
    weekly quota for VISA applications before mid-morning.  That's
    what happened to me.)
    
    /Ed

>     -< And I just walked into the LKG DCU and took an application form  >-

Me too!  And on a Thursday!  Filled it out Thurs night.  Handed it
in on Friday.  Got called the following Wednesday saying it was
approved and was told to look for it in the mail in a week or 2. (It 
took 2.)

Cheers,
Dan

re Note 15.90 by HJUXB::ADLER:

>     Call the 223-8444 hotline early Monday.  They'll send you an
>     application.  (That's EARLY Monday!  DCU often reaches their

I called them, but not on Monday.  The guy said that he couldn't take my name,
he couldn't send me a form, and that I had to go to a branch on Monday
morning.  He did not give me the option of calling back on Monday morning.

Bob

    I went to the branch here at ZKO early this morning and the teller said
    that they were out of application forms.  I asked when they expected 
    some to come in and she said that no more forms would be available 
    until they got caught up with all of the previous applications.
    
    --Jeff                               
    

    Dunno!  Maybe it's better to be at a remote site that doesn't have
    a DCU branch.  I've already received my VISA card.
    
    /Ed

I've been trying to get an application for weeks now and I'm starting
to get ANNOYED!! DCU should find a way to take advantage of the demand
for their card while it lasts because it won't last forever.

    It should begin to dawn on people that DCU limits the number of
    applications given out to the number of applications that they can
    process in a reasonable time frame. There is no other way to avoid
    overloading the credit checking process except to hire more employees
    to process VISA applications.  
    
    In other words you wait to get an application or you would wait for
    the card.  Maybe they should SELL the applications or have a lottery
    for applications to raise money to pay more interest to the rest
    of us  :-)  just kidding!
    
    	Rick
    	Merrill
    

    
     I called some branch on a Monday morning, and they told me they
    didn't have any applications left.  So, I called another branch,
    and they sent me one . . . 
    
    

    	What's the hurry?  One should only use "plastic" a couple times
    a year or so...if it takes a few months to get an application it's
    ok!
    
    Keith  (try working with VISA/France one time!!)
    

    .99> What's the hurry?
    
    People want the damn card, what do you think?
    
.99> One should only use "plastic" a couple times a year or so...
    
    That's your opinion only and certainly isn't a general statement
    that can be made. For example, I use my (one) credit card (not a
    DCU credit card) for all my gasoline purchases and then pay them
    up when the bill arrives. It's just the way I *prefer* to buy gasoline
    and it's not up to anybody else to say that is wrong.
    
.99> if it takes a few months to get an application it's ok!
    
    It certainly isn't, as other noters have been saying. In my opinion,
    the DCU shouldn't bother to start a service if the don't have the
    people to support it. But then what do I know!
    
    Happy New Year.
    
    -Glenn-

    
    DCU now offers VISA cards and offers one of - if not THE - lowest
    rate(s) in the country at 10.9% (guaranteed thru 1-Jul-89) and waiver
    of annual fees when purchases exceed $2,000 during a calendar year.*
    
    Two separate card classes are offered:
    
    VISA Classic 
    - $12 Annual Fee*
    - Minimum Credit Line of $500 
    - $100,000 in free, automatic travel insurance when you charge your
       tickets to the DCU card
    - Guaranteed reservations for late arrival at participating motels,
       etc.
    - Instant cash thru the VISA ATM network
    
    VISA Premier Gold
    - $18 annual fee*
    - Minimum Credit Line of $5,000
    - $300,000 in free, automatic travel insurance when you charge your
       tickets to the DCU card
    - Replacement card within 24 hours
    - VISA Travel Service Benefits:    		
     	* Guaranteed reservations for late arrival at participating motels,
      	   etc. PLUS cash advances of up to $200 per stay 
    	* Emergency Message Service
    	* Emergency Cash at 10,000 locations (including Western Union)
    	* Auto rental collision/loss/damage waiver insurance
    	* Medical and/or legal insurance
    	* Lost luggage assistence
    	* Emergency Ticket Replacement
    	* Pre-departure assistence
    
    - Instant cash thru the VISA ATM network
    
    Applications are available at your local DCU office or by calling
    the Customer Service Center at (DTN) 223-8444 or (508) 493-8444.
    

    re: .101
    
    It's kind of false advertising, though.  I wanted to replace 3 cards
    that had 15+ % interest rate with 1 DCU card at this rate.  (Isn't
    that part of their advertising?) 
    
    However, even with that criteria stated in my application they 
    turned it down, saying that they have to ADD the current obligations
    to the application minimum, rather than use the current as the total
    obligations!  
    
    Their intent, they say, is not to get you to change from one VISAcard
    at the other bank, to theirs; that would be looked on as a debt
    consolidation.  ....And we can't do this to replace the high interest
    cards.  These new cards are only for new accounts.  
    
    I thought DCU was supposed to help its members .... but I can't
    see that those in <power> now see it that way.  
    
    By the way, I was not turned down for a bad credit record; just
    that they doubled the proposed obligation rather than give me 
    the trust to do what I asked:  change from the high interest-rate
    VISA to their lower rate.  
    
    N

.102> Their intent, they say, is not to get you to change from one VISAcard
.102> at the other bank, to theirs; that would be looked on as a debt
.102> consolidation.  ....And we can't do this to replace the high interest
.102> cards.  These new cards are only for new accounts.  
    
    Yes, right DCU. And I've got a bridge to sell you!
    
    Banks do this all the time: offer lower interest rates on credit
    cards to "steal" business away from other banks. Some backs even
    offer to pay off the other cards for you and putting the new balance
    on their card. It's called competition. Why the heck else does the
    DCU think lower interest credit cards are offered? This scenario
    is in complete contradistinction to "loan consolidation".
    
    I am amazed time and time again how the DCU can so blatantly refuse
    perfectly good business like this. I said this once before here:
    it must be nice that the DCU has so much money they don't need to
    make more. Most businesses will take any business they can - not
    hinder it.
    
    -Glenn-

    You don't understand.
    
    The low interest and no fee (for a while) are intended to get you
    to apply for the card.  You're not really supposed to then "borrow"
    money at that low rate.
    
    The point is to get you "hooked", then up the interest and charge
    a fee.
    
    It's the reverse of the 100.93343% interest CDs (for the next 15
    minutes) ads in all the papers.
    
    /s/ Jim Williams ;^))

    No, I don't think that is their tactic either. Although, yes, the
    low interest charge and no fee is to induce you to get one of their
    cards they can, at any time, increase the interest charge.
    
> The low interest and no fee (for a while) are intended to get you
> to apply for the card.  You're not really supposed to then "borrow"
> money at that low rate.
  
    They shouldn't care if you borrow at the low interest rate. Because
    in 2 months they can up it and you now have to pay the new interest
    rate on all that money. You could get the benefit of the low interest
    rate for a while, but when it is increased you are now stuck with
    the new rate. Either way, the DCU would make money. They should
    *want* you to roll the balance of other credit cards into the DCU
    credit card because they will then have a balance they can charge
    interest for. Without a balance, they don't make money from the
    card holder (except the nominal annual fee, when applicable).
    
    This doesn't bother me. This is just typical competition for this
    sort of customer. What bother's me is every time the DCU turns away
    legitimate customers it means they make less money which means us,
    the shareholds, make less in dividends.
    
    -Glenn-

	RE: .102

>        Their intent, they say, is not to get you to change from one VISAcard
>    at the other bank, to theirs; that would be looked on as a debt
>    consolidation.  ....And we can't do this to replace the high interest
>    cards.  These new cards are only for new accounts.  

    Games, games and more DCU games!  If that's what they want to play
    with you, then play games with them.  Maybe you could get a short
    term loan from a family member to retire the credit card debt and
    cancel the cards, apply for the DCU card, borrow the money back
    and repay the family member.

    It's truly mind-boggling that DCU would refuse this request when
    practically every bank in the world does this.  It would mean instant
    revenue for DCU.  I guess your interest is different (and less desireable
    for some reason) than "new account" interest for some reason.
    Maybe they want you to apply for one of their higher rate loans.
    
    When will DCU start acting like a real, member oriented institution???
    
    
    

    I don't believe that the 10.9% is necessarily a teaser rate.  If
    it goes up to 18% and they still have an annual fee; joke 'em.
    After all, credit cards can be cancelled with a 2 minute phone call.
    I used to play a that game with first-year-free annual fee cards;
    cancel just before the fee is due in the second year and apply for
    another elsewhere.  Also, here's another tactic: when you call up
    to cancel, they basically hand you off to someone who wants to go
    to bed with you over the phone rather than to have you cancel.
    Just tell them you've got a permanent no-annual-fee card and that
    if they were to waive their annual fee for the year, that you might
    just keep using their card.  Worked twice so far; saved $40 in annual
    fees...
    
    _KB                  

>    Just tell them you've got a permanent no-annual-fee card and that
>    if they were to waive their annual fee for the year, that you might
>    just keep using their card.  Worked twice so far; saved $40 in annual
>    fees...

    I like it!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    - Chris
        

    Two no fee cards:
    
    	VISA
    	First Signature Bank & Trust
    	PO Box 7090
    	Portsmouth NH 03801
    	(800)522-1776
    
    	M/C
    	First National Bank of Wilmington
    	???
    	(800)772-7775
    
    	No fee, 30 day billing period, no interest if paid off each
    month (except cash advances).  Gold colored (if you care).
    
    /s/ Jim Williams (Who owns NO bank stock)

< Note 15.105 by CVMS::DOTEN "Right theory, wrong universe." >

>    They shouldn't care if you borrow at the low interest rate. Because
>    in 2 months they can up it and you now have to pay the new interest
>    rate on all that money. 

	I specifically called and asked about this. They said as long
	as you don't use the card when the interest rate is raised, 
	all the money on the card is paid off at the OLD rate. Once
	you use the card the total balance is THEN subject to the new
	rate.


	ANY COMMENTS FROM DCU WHEN YOU SEE THIS MESSAGE ARE WELCOME!

	DCU, AM I RIGHT OR WRONG ABOUT THIS?

    RE: .110
    
    Frankly, I don't believe that they can do that. Probably the person you
    spoke to was wrong or didn't communicate what they meant effectively.
    It doesn't make any sense. Why should suddenly using your card for a
    $2.00 purchase allow them to suddenly increase the interest rate on the
    previous balance? For all the bank credit cards I've ever had (about a
    dozen), any new interest rate applied to all card holders balances
    at the same time. 
    
    I would be pleased to hear an official word from the DCU on this. 

>    It doesn't make any sense. Why should suddenly using your card for a
>    $2.00 purchase allow them to suddenly increase the interest rate on the
>    previous balance?
    
    It makes sense to me.  When you borrowed the money originally, you
    agreed to a certain interest rate.  Until you use the card after
    the rates have changed, you haven't agreed to the new loan terms.
    							Larry

    RE: .112
    
    Well, has anybody ever had a card where this happens?
    
    -Glenn-

                This is a common way for credit cards to operate. I've
        had cards long enough that I have seen this happen more than
        once. A new rate card will come in a bill with a notice on it
        that usage of the card after a certain date will constitute
        acceptance of the new rate and all monies still owed at that
        point will be subject to the new rate. You are allowed to remain
        at the old rate by not using the card. Not at all an unusual
        occurence.
                
                /s/     Bob

    It's moot! The interest charged on your OLD loan  becomes an
    integral part of your NEW loan (the interest itself) thereby 
    contaminating the whole!
    
    	RMM
    

    
    I had a card from a bank which was not renewed as I had closed my
    account with the bank and moved out of state. I called the bank
    and found this out. I told them that they did not notify me of this
    but just never sent me my new cards upon expiration of the old ones.
    So they agreed to issue me new cards for only 6 months. The first
    thing I did when I got the new cards was run up the credit to the
    max. (I just bought a new house and needed lots of stuff). The interest
    rate on the card (no membership fee) at that time (1987) was 14%.
    Since then they have raised the rate upto 16%. I haven't charged
    anything since 1987. But I noticed that the annual % being used
    to calculate the interest was 16%. I still have a small balance
    let on it. But it was a way to get a personal loan, no questions
    asked for whatever amount of time I choice to keep it.
    
    	So does my choicing not to pay off the balance mean I accepted
    the new terms? That's how it looks to me.

    With most of the bank cards, if they increase the interest rate,
    you have the option of not using the card and staying at the old
    rate.  When interest is credited to your account, that does not
    constitute activity, so just accruing interest would not put you
    into the higher rate.  Not all cards work this way, so you would
    have to read the notice that announces the new rate.  In many of
    our cases, it doesn't matter, since we don't have a card that we
    can have that luxury with.
    
    Ed..
    

I am mad as hell and I don't know what to do about it.

I just got rejected for a DCU VISA card for the second time.  The first time
was because I asked for too high a credit limit.  Ok, I can accept that, but
then I reapplied for the regular "Classic" card with a credit limit almost
$1,000 less than my Baybanks Mastercard.  I've had the Mastercard for over 5
years and my credit history is impecable.  The reason I was given was recent-
ness of employment, I've only been here about 4 months.  Now normally if I
was a teenager or someone just out of college I might be able to understand
that, but according to the women at headquarters that I personally went to
speak with (unfortunately, didn't get her name), it does not matter if you
previously worked somewhere for 6 months, 5 years, 10 years even 25 years. As
soon as you leave for another job you are back to square zero!  I find this
wholely unreasonable, not taking into account prior employment history at all.

According to the women I spoke with you must have been working at the same
place for at least six months.  I asked her, "why?".  Her response was
"because that's the policy".  Again I asked, "why?". Her response was "because
we need to have these rules".  Again I asked "why?" (Not too patiently waiting
for an acceptable answer).  Finally she responded with something about ensuring
steadiness of employment and all.  At this point I was so angry that I got
up without saying a word and left.  Right then and there I considered taking
all of my business away from this institution.  I just drove away and tried
to forget about it for the time being.

What I want to know is, am I being unreasonable?  I've never bounced a check
in my life, I've never missed a payment for any bill.  All I wanted was a
lousy credit card.  I find it amazing that every credit card company in the
country sends me letters saying all I have to do is sign my name and they will
send me their card, but the one card I do want I can't get because this
place is intent on not giving me one.  It seems to be just another argument
that the DCU does not serve its members the way a credit union should

    Re .118:
    
    I can see why you're agitated.  I can also see DCU's rationale for
    turning you down.  (That's not to say I agree with same.)
    
    To DCU, a loan (or line of credit) is an investment.  They balance the
    expected income against the risk that you'll default.  The higher the
    interest rate, the greater the risk they're willing to tolerate.  Many
    factors contribute to their perceived risk, including the person's
    "stability" of job and/or residence.
    
    A wise loan officer has a "feel" for good risks vs bad risks, and is
    able to weigh ALL the factors without falling back upon a rigid set of
    rules.  Lesser minds rely upon such rules in order to avoid making
    risky loans.  Sadly, financial institutions are FULL of the latter; the
    former is a vanishing breed.  More's the pity.                  

    RE: .118
    
    Just keep using your current credit card(s) or get one somewhere else.
    
    I refuse to apply for a DCU credit card because of their B.S. loan
    processing techniques, and I have excellent credit too (I tried for a
    CRT-5000 loan twice and was rejected, after that I refused to ever
    apply to DCU for any type of loan situation again). If they don't want
    your money, that's there problem.
    
    There are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of other VISA/MC type
    credit cards you can get.
    
    -Glenn-

    
    RE: .118
    
    I agree that DCU is relying on standard (and in some situations,
    out-dated) criteria.  If after talking to the PERSON-IN-CHARGE,
    not somebody answering a phone, they do not understand that an
    excellent credit rating is worth more than length of residence then
    they have missed the boat.  In this day and age, length of employment
    should carry little weight in the calculation.
    
    I got turned down for a gasoline credit card once and received the
    standard rejection with 3 boxes marked off; length of employment,
    length of residence and lack of credit history.  As you are, I was PO'ed
    enough to call the number they sent with the rejection.  After all,
    they sent the damn thing to me!  I was fresh out of college and had
    just moved to a new state.  That explained the length of employment and
    residence being 3 months.  The lack of credit history was due to the
    fact they used a credit bureau in the new area I had just moved to.
    Hell, the next door neighbors didn't know me yet, never mind the
    local credit bureau!  The amount I was making and how much money I had
    in the bank NEVER enough came into play (or was verified)!  The
    "standard criteria" hadn't been meet.  The person I talked to realized
    the situation and agreed I was worth the risk of miserably low credit
    limit they usualy give.
    
    If DCU is so blindly committed to it's "standard criteria" that
    it can't recognize valid exceptions, then they aren't worth doing
    business with.  FWIW, I got a DCU VISA after much debate.  After
    seeing how well(?) they did other things, I was worried that one
    of their screwups could do something to damage my credit rating.
    The first months statements arrived.  1.5 - 2 weeks later, the
    "corrected" statements arrived.  They may be doing you a favor....
    
    Good luck.
    Phil

re:    < Note 15.118 by AKOV11::COHEN "Andrew B. Cohen" >
                                                
    > Right then and there I considered taking
    > all of my business away from this institution.  
                                                
    Hold that thought! DCU needs to learn how to value customers. The
    only way they will learn is by direct feedback. 
    
    I've found a bank that will: purchase my DCU checks; provide their
    first 200 checks for free; and offers free access to CIRRUS, Yankee24,
    and NYCE (with direct deposit of pay). There are no monthly or per
    check fees (again with direct deposit).        
    
    I'll keep open my savings account with DCU for a year or so, just to
    track whether things improve. (I don't have high expectations.) 

    Re .122
    
    Mind telling us which bank that is?  There are a lot of us out here
    that are currently shopping around for a new bank, and I for one
    would sure be interested in knowing which bank you switched to.
    
    Thanks,
    Cathy

    re: .123
    
    First Service Bank of Leominster, MA. They have branches in many
    towns of North Central MA.
    
    Note: First Service has been called "a troubled bank" because of
    some irregularities with certain loans, certain bank officers, or
    both. However, this institution is insured by FDIC, so deposits
    are not at risk.
    

    On the >6 months rule, I've run into that more than once. Once with a GAS
    credit card and another time with a normal bank. So I don't think DCU
    is unique in this area.
    
    	Bill

    This is an official response by Mary Madden of the DCU. The portion of
    that response, dated 10-FEB-1989, that applies to this note topic is
    included below. See note 2.22 for more information. 
    
    Whether you agree or disagree with the response from the DCU, please
    either direct your comments to the DCU directly (dtn-223-6735) or
    post your comments as a REPLY to this entry in this conference.
    
    Carl Leeber
******************************************************************************
    Our VISA credit card rate is 10.9%. This rate is guaranteed until July
    1, 1989 (nine months).  Presently, we do not know if the rate will
    increase or decrease.  We will notify the member 15 days in advance of
    any change.  When a rate change occurs, up or down, any unpaid balance
    at that time will be charged interest based on the new rate.  If you
    have any questions or concerns, please contact the communications
    department.  Thank you. 
******************************************************************************

    	Anyone want to bet that the annual percentage rate goes up in
    the summer and within two years after DCU gets enough cardholders
    with a balance,
     their rates will be as high or higher than area banks.
    

       I got a 'pre-approved' application for the Visa card on Sat.
    What's funny is I DIDN'T get one last year when they first sent
    them out. And I've been a member since day 1. Anyone else get one
    of these?
                                                    Denny

    
    Yeah, Denny, I just got one the other day, too.  I've been at DCU
    for 3 years and have good credit with them (1 3/4 car loans paid off),
    so I don't know......
    
    I just figured that last year I must not have fallen into their
    "absolutely no risk" category of members.  
    
- Sean

    I got one too. It isn't a free VISA card anymore, unless I charge $2000
    a year on it. They also point out that the interest rate might (I'm
    sure that means WILL) go up later this summer. Who needs it :-( 

    Well, I received the 1st _and_ 2nd mailing for the pre-approved 
    VISA card.  I didn't consider it the fist go 'round -- I already
    have a low interest credit card, but it's gone up to ~13-14% (don't
    recall) so 10.5% sounds inviting.  Still, knowing the rate will
    change this summer and not knowing what it will change to, I'm not
    certain I want to go thru the hassel of changing cards (which would
    likely be the _only_ way I'd do it).
    
-Andy

     Just to balance things, I've yet to be solicited by DCU for the
    VISA card, and I've been with them since day 1, too (along with having
    substantial deposits). My nose was a little outta joint when I wasn't
    asked the first go around, and hearing that I missed the second
    cut doesn't endear me to DCU. Honestly, they really should have
    solicited EVERY member the first time, and controlled it via acceptance
    terms. Instead, this "second class, third class" mailing makes me
    wonder how much DCU appreciates me. 
    
     I have no intention of accepting the card now. I might not have
    done so if it had been done differently. Really, it would have been
    nice to have been asked. This is customer satisfaction?
    
    
    
                                    Ken
    

    	I got my DCU VISA card last September. I already charged more
    then $2000.00 since Jan. 1, 89 because I almost never use cash.

        Yech! Cash is green and dirty.
    
    I always pay the balance in full each month so I don't care if the
    interest rate goes to 25%.
    	I use my DISCOVER card where ever it is accepted because I get back
    1% in cash of my total charges each year. Again I don't care what
    the interest rate is because DISCOVER has no annual fee.

    	I wish we could use credit cards to pay our house mortgage bills,
    real estate taxes, grocery shopping, DEC lunches etc....

    re: .134
    
    Minor nit.  With the Discover Card, you get back 0.25% (one quarter
    of one per cent) on your first $1000 charged per year, 0.50% on
    the next $1K, 0.75% on the third $1K, and 1% thereafter.  
    
       Gary

       Do they send a 'checkbook' with the Visa card in case I want
    to use it to pay off a higher interest card? Do they charge a higher
    interest rate for 'cash advance'?
                                                 Denny

	How 'bout a few more details on the Discover Card:
	
	Is it  the  case  that  there  is  just  one set of terms for the
	Discover card that  is uniform across the U.S.?  You can only get
	it from Sears, true?  What is the interest rate, and how and when
	does it change?  How does one get an application?
	

       The interest rate, I believe, is close to the highest allowed
    by law.
                                                  Denny

    
    Discover Card's interest is about 21% - wicked high.  I only keep
    one for because there's no annual fee - I *never* leave an outstanding
    balance on this thing.
    
    Denny, yes, DCU Visa does give you some checks to pay off other
    credit cards with.
    
- Sean

    .136>  Do they [DCU] charge a higher interest rate for 'cash advance'?
    
    Nope. Same rate.
    
    						Trace

       Where do I get the checks? They didn't come with the card.
                                           Denny

    You should get a small supply of checks in a separate mailing.
    
    The Discover Card is actually issued by the Greenwood Savings Bank
    (if I have that right), but I believe that the bank is a subsidiary
    of Sears.  They must be starting to have positive cash flow.  Last
    year, they offered to double the rebate if you opened a savings
    account with them, at a fairly good interest rate.  This year, as
    far as I know, there's no such offer.
    
       Gary

    re: .129
    
         I got one of those pre-approved notices as well.  I have a
    problem with my credit that I am in the process of cleaning up and
    I was surprised to get the notice as I doubt anyone in his/her right
    mind would currently issue me a credit card (unless it was
    collatoralized).  Well, I have been debating getting a collatoralized
    credit card for the purposes of re-establishing good credit (I have
    been a DCU member 7.5 years with no credit problem) and this sounded
    like a good deal so I mailed it in.  A few days ago, I got a notice
    that I had been denied the card due to a bad credit history.  The
    bad credit history was no surprise, but I was really confused at
    the meaning of "pre-approved" so I called the credit union.
    
    They told me that the pre-approved applications were mailed out
    to random DCU members.  The applications were supposed to be sent
    only to random 'qualified' members but there was a bug in the program
    and credit checks were neglected in this process.
    
    Routinely, a credit check is done when these applications are received
    to make sure the requestor has not become a bad risk between the
    sending and receiving of the application.
    
    So, if you got one of these and you are wondering why as you don't
    think you are eligible, blame it on the DCU programmer(s).
    
    Denise

    This is an official response by Mary Madden of the DCU. The portion of
    that response, dated 30-May-1989, that applies to this note topic is
    included below. See note 2.22 for more information. 
    
    Your comments on this response should be posted here or directed to
    to DCU directly at Mary Madden's number (dtn) 223-6735 x207.
    (Note: New extension for Mary Madden)
        
    Carl Leeber
******************************************************************************
    
         RE: 15.143
    
             DCU's recent VISA mailing, which preapproved members for 
             a credit line, was not based on random selection.  Our 
             selection was determined by internal account criteria.  
         
             When a member returned the completed response card, we 
             conducted a credit check through an independent reporting 
             agency.  If the member didn't have a positive credit 
             report, their request was denied.  We waited to have 
             credit reports pulled.
         
             Since a majority of members do not respond to direct mail 
             pieces, it is more cost effective to have credit reports 
             pulled on respondents only.
         
             It was also noted on the letter and response card that 
             our offer was subject to DCU credit granting criteria.
         
******************************************************************************

    Re: Mary Madden's response in the previous note.
    
    I guess I see nothing wrong with the procedure DCU used (sending out
    applications to members who met some internal credit qualifications and
    then doing a formal credit check AFTER the application was sent back),
    except they should NOT have used the work PREAPPROVED.
    
    They should have used wording like American Express and some of the
    other credit card companies use in their bulk mailings.  This is
    something to the effect that, "We believe that you may meet our
    qualifications and should waste no time in filling out this
    application...".
    
    The words that DCU used implied that any credit checks that needed to
    be done had already been performed and that the applicant had
    successfully met their terms.  There is no way I would have interpreted
    PRAPPROVED to mean what Mary just decribed.

Since I never received on of their solicitations, I decided to return one of the
others that I receive on a periodic basis.  Not only was I approved, I was
approved with a credit limit $1K higher than my credit limit on my existing
gold card.

I wonder what bizzare criteria they used to select people.  Maybe they don't
need the interest income my normal  > $2K balance would produce.

Bob

I guess they also wouldn't be interested in an aircraft loan either.  Too bad,
used aircraft prices have been steadily increasing over the past few years.

> I wonder what bizzare criteria they used to select people.  

Along those lines.... What amazes me about some of these pre-approved
Visa & Master Card applications that I receive is the phrase
"...because of your excellent credit rating....", and we're talking
about the Gold Cards with a credit limit of $5000 and up. 

The funny part is, that these applications were mailed to me at my
parents address where I haven't lived for over 11 years! Some credit
checking! Oh well, I just wait for the card with a decent rate, check
off the box, correct the address and then send it in. A few weeks
later, a pair of Gold Cards! 

Charly

    My wife received a "pre-approved" card once which left no doubt that
    a card would be issued if one simply filled out the form.  As a test,
    she did, listing (correctly) her income as zero.  We were pleasantly
    surprised when the cards were issued!
    

    re .147
    
    When I would receive "pre approved" charge account applications
    at my old address, I would change address, and then be sent the
    long form to fill out. I quickly learned to send back without
    correction, and then make an address change after card was sent.
    
    The aggravating part was that I did not move, but my local post
    office did, forcing me to get a new box number. Apparently the address
    change made me un-preapproved.
    
    Joseph
    

None of the replies in this topic seem to cover this:

I recently got a DCU VISA.  My first bill was for the period 5/11 - 6/10
and was due on 7/5 (I sent it in 6/28).

I have yet to receive my second bill!  In the midst of vacations, etc.,
this fact eluded me until now.  Also, I have charged lots of stuff on my
card in that time!

I would assume that DCU VISA sends bills monthly... is this my fault that
this happened?  Is this another DCU horror story that is going to make me
wish I hadn't bothered?  Any suggestions of what I should do?

I'm still sitting tight for now since I should be at the end of my NEXT
billing cycle.

Thanks,
	Rico

        Bills come monthly.  I'd guess yours was lost in the mail
        or something.  I'd suggest contacting the DCU to (1) make
        sure they know why your 5 August payment is late, (2) pay
        it, and (3) get a statement.

    Re .150
    
    Also note that you can inquire on the balance of your card or make a
    payment by DCU EasyTouch, if you're so inclined and don't want to wait
    for the statement.
    
    Kak

    Re .152
    
>    Also note that you can inquire on the balance of your card or make a
>    payment by DCU EasyTouch, if you're so inclined and don't want to wait
>    for the statement.

    I don't have the original card agreement with me, and I don't recall
    getting any separate mailing about DCU EasyTouch.  What is the number?
    Do I need just my VISA card number, or do I need a password as well?

    Thanks,
	    Rico

    Your DCU VISA is treated as any other loan, and has a loan suffix
    number in addition to the account number printed on the card.  All
    you have to do to get a balance or make a payment is note the loan
    suffix number (upper left portion of statement) and then follow
    the EASY-TOUCH procedure for loans balances or payments.

    
    
         Just wanted to reply that this has happened to me twice in the
    last few months.  I would never receive the bill,(and not notice
    because it was not in my "to be paid pile") and then the next month
    would show me having a late payment.  I checked and the DCU is supposed
    to be looking into what happened, but I haven't heard anything back
    in almost a week.  I just transferred the funds from my savings account
    to pay it off, but I'm just hoping this didn't hurt my credit.  I'm
    positive that the bill did not come, and to have it happen twice within
    a few months means something is wrong.  Anyone else have this happen
    to them???
    
    Tim

    
    I thought DCU did this once, but what happened is that because
    the bill comes in an exactly similar-looking envelope to my DCU
    statement, I threw it in the "leisurely things to get around to"
    pile, thinking it *was* my statement, rather than my "to be paid" pile.
    
    Definitely my mistake, but it probably could't hurt to use different
    envelopes.
    
- Sean

    Yes folks, that time of the year to zero out your Visa/MC card's
    balances, call their customer assistance line, and tell them that
    you'd really like to continue using their card but that the annual
    fee coming up is just too much and you'd like to cancel... perhaps
    if it were waived then you would continue to enjoy their card's
    great benefits in the future.
    
    Try it.  Works every year.  Takes about 10 minutes to save $30/card.
    _KB 
     

RE .-1 DCU Visa waives the fee if you charge $2000.00 in purchases per year.
       I called them and they said that if you get charged a fee that 
       means that you didn't charge enough during the year, and that they
       are not going to let you know how much you charged per year. Guess
       its too much work for them..

We just got our first DCU VISA bill. I can't seem to figure out the total 
line. Did DCU screw up everybody's bill, just mine, or is this normal 
practice? 

The boxes right above the dotted line about two thirds of the way  down the
page are labeled;

Previous   Payments  Purchases/  Credit      Debit   New   Finance  Late
Balance              Advances    Adjust.     Adjust. Bal.  Charge   Fees

$0.00      $0.00      $150.10     $0.00      $0.00   $0.00 $0.00    $150.10
                        ^
                        |
(Jane seems to think    |
a new card needs some   |
exercise to break       |
it in right)------------+

Doesn't seem to you as if the headings "New Balance" and "Late Fees" are 
reversed? Does yours look like this? Is this normal? Should I complain? 
worry?

				-Marc

Re:  .159   (CELIA::SOULE "ASMOP"  Am I reading this statement wrong?)


>>> Is this normal? Should I complain? worry? 

Well, if it were _my_ money:

DCU's telephone number is listed in my Digital telephone book, under
Credit Union, as dtn 223-6735.  Simply ask them to connect you with
"Customer Service", and direct the question to them.  Having your account
number handy is also probably a good idea.

Whether it is a mistake or not, something tells me they would be the best
source of accurate and timely information on the subject.  Of course, you
may find the answer here as well, but there would be no guarantee of its
correctness.

Would you also be so kind as to let the rest of us know what the answer is
if and when you find it out?

Using extreme care to be courteous and friendly and helpful always,
\Gary

        I check with the local DCU office. The teller was confused,
        but called me back later in the day to tell me that there was
        indeed a mistake with all the bills and that new ones will be
        mailed. Now that is a waste of money, but I guess they have to
        do it.
        
        				-Marc

    
    I believe that this is not the first time this has happened.  I think
    when they first started the credit card program, something very
    similar happened.  It kind of makes me wonder whether I should be
    checking DCU's arithmetic and interest calculations on these statements
    from now on...
    
    With all the Visa billing that goes on, you'd think that they could
    have gotten some very mature software to create the bills.  Did they 
    re-invent the wheel?  It certainly would be interesting to know a $
    figure for regenerating the bills. I wonder whether it's even close to
    all the bad checks they get stuck with?
    

I didn't even realize that the first bill was printed wrong when I got it...

But then I got the new one, with the message "Your most recent VISA statement
is incorrect.  Enclosed is a corrected statement."  So I go back to the old
bill to try and figure out just what was wrong with the &^%$*^%$ thing!  Thanks
DCU for telling us what was wrong!  I'll admit it, I spent quite some time
comparing the two bills to see just what was wrong!  Was someone fraudulently
using my card?!?!  Thank you very much!

It would have been pretty easy (and mush appreciated) if they could have
simply stated that a couple of column headings were printed incorrectly!

And I thought DCU was getting better in the communication department.

Dan
one POed customer

    
    I compared the two bills last night and was quite surprised to see the
    error was in column headings in the total section (in the middle of the
    bill).  How could something like that happen?  If they are using
    pre-printed forms, doesn't anybody check them when received?  Did they
    use the wrong form?  If they aren't using pre-printed forms, why are the
    headings so easily changable?  Does anybody remember why DCU re-sent
    the VISA bills the first time?  This really does sound familiar.
    
    I would also STILL like to know the cost of re-sending these bills. 
    Especially since it isn't the first time.
    

    Have you ever programmed a Datatrieve report using your own column
    headings?  Later on, you changed the format by repositioning the
    columns but forgot to move the headings also. 
    
    An easy mistake to make (especially if nobody reviews the changes 8^).
        
    /Ed 

    Come now, haven't any of you ever made mistakes?  Haven't you all
    gone through these same types of errors with other banks/credit
    cards?  I know I have, and none are any better/worse.  I'll stick
    with DCU.
    
    P.S. Back about 6 months ago in this note was a "too good to be true"
    description of the services available from First Service Bank.  I
    noticed that their latest status was never posted:  they were absorbed
    (one step away from the courts!) by People's Bank, and now the level of
    service is back to the standard mediocrity expected from the banking
    industry. 

>    Come now, haven't any of you ever made mistakes?

	I didn't mind the mistake, if I knew what the &^%#$ it was!  What
	I'm moaning about is the reporting of the error...

	So did everyone else find the "sorry there was an error in your
	last bill" statement acceptable?

>  Haven't you all gone through these same types of errors with other banks/credit
>    cards?  I know I have, and none are any better/worse.

	Actually, no I haven't.  But I'm sure that was just luck...

>  I'll stick with DCU.
 
	Same here.  Mostly since the convenience outweighs any problems
	I've had (of which this is really the first).  But I felt the need
	to make my disatifaction known in case it happens again...

Dan

    re:    < Note 15.166 by REGENT::EPSTEIN "Meet me at Foodee's" > 
    
   > P.S. Back about 6 months ago in this note was a "too good to be true"
   > description of the services available from First Service Bank.  I
   > noticed that their latest status was never posted:  they were absorbed
   > (one step away from the courts!) by People's Bank, and now the level of
   > service is back to the standard mediocrity expected from the banking
   > industry. 

    I posted the note about First Service, and yes, some of their policies
    have changed for the worse since Peoples Savings Bank (of Worcester)
    assumed most of their assets and liabilities last March. They now
    charge ~$1 for network ATM transactions, and there is an annual
    custodial fee ($10) on IRA accounts. 
    
    Consequently I'm consolidating my network ATM activity and IRA at the
    Nashoba Credit Union (where both are still fee-free). However, I still
    have most of 400 free checks to use, and I still earn 5% interest with
    $100 minimum balance, so there's still value in using Peoples. 
    
    Like most things in this world, one-stop banking usually doesn't
    provide the best value for the dollar.                        
    
    P.S. I suffered no loss of liquidity from the FDIC closing/PSB
    assumption of First Service Bank for Savings. I can report first-hand
    that the banking insurance system does indeed work, from the
    depositor's standpoint. 
    

    
    I agree that anybody can make a mistake.  BUT, this is a financial
    organization responsible for MILLIONS of dollars.  I would hope that
    anybody making changes to statements would be checked by others.  What
    scares me is that I believe this is not the first time.  It also scares
    me to think that these same people may be making changes to formulas
    used to calculate balances, interest, etc.  Let's just hope the
    auditing at DCU improves.
    
    BTW, I've never had statements resent from any other bank that I had an
    account or credit card with.
    

    I had a second statement sent to me by Baybank on my Mastercard
    bill about 6 months ago. There was some kind of error on only a portion
    of the statements that had been sent, not mine, but they sent duplicate
    bills to all with a stuffer explaining that it was a duplicate.
    
    I don't think the DCU error was such a big deal. It was obvious
    to me from the first examination that the form did not match the
    software, and what each column really meant. Perhaps there are
    several different formats available for Mastercard statements
    and DCU's vendor sent the wrong one. It is easy to not notice such
    a problem if the formats are very similar to each other. Would you
    rather that they didn't send you any statement at all until they
    got the right forms? I think it is unrealistic to expect reprogramming
    to match an incorrect form. 
    
    Linda

Not quite the same, but I got one of my charges double billed on my
BayBanks credit statement this last December ($341).  The posting dates
and descriptions where different (and the latter was undecipherable),
but the amounts were the same and I only owed one of them.  I never
did get an explanation -- by law they are apparently only required to
explain it if they don't remove it, and they did remove it.  Eventually.
To their partial justification, the merchant had messed up the slip.
But that should have caused problems for the merchant, not me.

Due to this event, and due to the incredible hassles I had trying to
find out what was going on, I cancelled my Baybanks credit card.  Now
they've screwed that up... they're charging me finanace charges on
the card fee that they said they'd cancel.

I don't think any such event should be treated as business as usual.  
Voting with your feet is sometimes the only way to express your opinion.
However, if they'd given me accurate information and fixed it right 
away when I brought the problem to their attention, I'd very likely
still be with them.  I'm still thinking about whether to try the DCU.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    RE: .-1
    
    I have had the same problem with BayBank.  It took me several months to
    cancel my credit card with BayBank, together with all the finance
    charges on the card fee for the year after I canceled it.  That was 
    several years ago.  Last year (89), I canceled my checking account with 
    them.  It took over 6 months before my account balance settled down to 0.  
    They kept transferring money from my reserve credit into my closed account.
    
    I have dealt with many banks in my life, and BayBank seems to be the
    only bank with this problem of not being able to close customer
    accounts correctly, and BayBank did this consistently over the years too.

    re: last couple (BayBank)
    
    Seems to be an epidemic.  I closed my VISA account last August.
    Since then I have been getting statements noting $2.33 credit
    balance and zero available credit.  I have called their customer
    service center several times, and each time spoken with a different
    rep, all of whom assured me that the account was closed and "the
    check is in the mail."  I am still waiting, called again yesterday,
    got the same story.  They're incredibly polite, just screwed up!
    
    If DCU did this, there would be a hue and cry for their heads in
    this notesfile!

   My wife had a savings account with BayBank which she closed. We received
statements for about a half year after that stating that there was $.01
in the account. Finally we went down and closed it again and got the penny.

   My parents also had BayBank for their accounts, but closed them due to
numerous statement errors.

    re: .172
    
    I had a similar problem several years ago with a bank in Ohio.
    After I cancelled my Visa card, it took about a year for them to
    cancel the annual fee and interest on the anual fee. They finally
    did, and I had totally forgotten the incident until last year.
    At the closing on my new house, they informed me that that bank had
    listed the nonpayment of the fee on my credit record (despite the fact
    that the fee was their screw-up in the first place). We managed to
    close on the house that day, but it was an added hassle.
    
    So anyone who has had problems closing out a credit card may want to
    make sure their credit rating is intact as well.
    
    

    re: .175
    
    Thanks for the reminder about credit rating.  I have a letter from
    BayBank that states that they did not report my non-payments due to
    BayBank's mistakes to credit bureaus.  (They refused to send me anything
    in writing until I send them a strongly worded letter.)

       I Would like to share my experience with DCU VISA CARD. My
    application was rejected. Reason, I would not supply them information
    on mortgages and loans that have my name on them. I explained that
    I do not pay those bills my husband does. I applied for the card in
    only my name. I supplied 3 credit references in my name they found
    out I have A-1 credit rating but still refused to let me have the
    Credit Card. It was stated that my income did not suffice having the
    card. I never had to give anyone the information that DCU is asking
    for unless my husband and I were applying for a mortgage or a loan.
    I do not consider a Credit Card a loan. Most establishments require
    a Credit Card for identification purposes along with a license. I 
    always thought Digital Credit Union was here to support Digital 
    employees and their family members. I find they make it twice as
    hard to get anything from what I have read in this conference. I was
    even stated to me that how would you pay those bills in the event
    something should happen to your husband? I informed them I did not
    think that was any of their business. I would like to hear what some
    of you think of this situation. Do I deserve a chance from DCU?
    
    Thanks Donna
     
    

    
>    application was rejected. Reason, I would not supply them information
>    on mortgages and loans that have my name on them. I explained that
>    I do not pay those bills my husband does. I applied for the card in
    
    I guess if mortgages or loans have your name on them then you are
    jointly liable for the debt.  I believe if your husband stopped paying
    them then you would be liable for them so they should be considered in a
    calculation of your indebtedness.
    
    Would it be possible to report both incomes, all debts and have the card
    just in your name?  Wouldn't hurt to ask.
    

    Re .177:
    
>   My application was rejected. Reason, I would not supply them
>   information on mortgages and loans that have my name on them. I
>   explained that I do not pay those bills my husband does.
    
    Unfortunately, you are legally responsible for those debts in the event
    your husband loses his job or is otherwise unable to make the payments. 
    A credit card is considered to be a pre-approved loan (line of credit),
    so the issuer DOES care what other debt you have, even if you're not
    the one who usually writes the checks.
    
    The DCU and many other lenders are completely unimaginative when it
    comes to meeting your REAL need, which is to establish a good credit
    rating of your OWN, independent of the one you share with your husband. 
    
    All is not lost, however.  For one thing, you can get a DEBIT card
    instead of a CREDIT card from many financial institutions.  Merchants
    who want to see a card for identification will accept either version. 
    The DEBIT card draws directly from your checking account in lieu of
    writing a check.  Use of the debit card isn't considered to be a loan
    any more than writing a check is.

I was in a similar position.  I had a mortgage for a 2-family house that
was jointly in the names of 2 couples.  I had to provide information
about the other couple's income to get an auto loan because the debt
percentages didn't work out properly if I were paying the mortgage all
by myself.

I consider that the DCU acted properly in this case.  I really was liable
for any part of the mortgage that my co-owners did not pay -- I knew that
when I made the mortgage.  A credit card is a loan, and the DCU had a
right to know that the pool of money being used to pay the mortgage was 
large enough so that I could afford the credit card loan.  They also
wanted a statement that I was, in fact, paying just half of the mortgage.
This information is DEFINATELY their business.

There is no need for the person in .177 to get a debit card if what she
really wants is a credit card.  All that is necessary is to report all of
her debts, including joint debts with her husband, and document on the
source of income that is being used to pay them.  The credit card itself
need not be joint with her husband, any more than my auto loan was joint
with my co-owners.  This can result in her building her own separate
credit record, without exposing the bank to more risk than they would have
by extending credit to anybody else.

There is yet another alternative.  That is to have her name removed from
the joint mortgage.  I'm being facetious, of course -- it is hard to
get a name removed.  I'm sure she wouldn't do it anyway -- the whole
point of a joint deed and mortgage is to establish joint ownership.
That it also establishes joint liability to pay the mortgage is not
the fault of the DCU.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

                 <<< BEIRUT::DUA2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DCU.NOTE;3 >>>
                                    -< DCU >-
================================================================================
Note 15.159                     Visa/MasterCard?                      159 of 180
CELIA::SOULE "ASMOP"                                 23 lines  18-DEC-1989 10:21
                    -< Am I reading this statement wrong? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We just got our first DCU VISA bill. I can't seem to figure out the total 
line. Did DCU screw up everybody's bill, just mine, or is this normal 
practice? 

The boxes right above the dotted line about two thirds of the way  down the
page are labeled;

Previous   Payments  Purchases/  Credit      Debit   New   Finance  Late
Balance              Advances    Adjust.     Adjust. Bal.  Charge   Fees

$0.00      $0.00      $150.10     $0.00      $0.00   $0.00 $0.00    $150.10
                        ^
                        |
(Jane seems to think    |
a new card needs some   |
exercise to break       |
it in right)------------+

Doesn't seem to you as if the headings "New Balance" and "Late Fees" are 
reversed? Does yours look like this? Is this normal? Should I complain? 
worry?

				-Marc
        
                 <<< BEIRUT::DUA2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DCU.NOTE;3 >>>
                                    -< DCU >-
================================================================================
Note 15.161                     Visa/MasterCard?                      161 of 180
CELIA::SOULE "ASMOP"                                  7 lines  18-DEC-1989 22:32
                                 -< an answer >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        I check with the local DCU office. The teller was confused,
        but called me back later in the day to tell me that there was
        indeed a mistake with all the bills and that new ones will be
        mailed. Now that is a waste of money, but I guess they have to
        do it.
        
        				-Marc
        ===============================================================
        ==================================================================
        
        I just got my May bill.  I don't believe it!! Everything is
        correct; the numbers are in the right place; they all add up;
        the information is current  (the balance is too large, but
        that is my wife's fault :-) ). The funny part is that right
        above the perforation, in bolded caps it reads;
        
        CORRECTED DECEMBER 10, 1989 STATEMENT
        
        Are we dealing with a bunch of amateurs?  It seems that the
        DCU treats the banking business as a hobby.

Well, they did it again.  I received my VISA bill last week and noticed that 
a charge had been duplicated.  I went to the DCU in Spitbrook, after writing 
the requisite letter, and asked them to correct the problem.  The teller took 
photocopies of my letter and my statement and said that all she could do was 
forward it to the VISA department.  That isn't the problem.  Anyone can make 
mistakes; and DCU is just like any other bank in that they have their share of 
humans.

The problem comes to day.  I walked over to the DCU in Spitbrook to make a 
payment on my account.  I wrote a check (non-DCU) for the amount minus the 
disputed amount which the teller accepted graciously.  I reiterated, at that 
point, that there was a problem with the bill and asked when I might reasonably
expect to hear from the VISA department.  Another teller chimed in with, "Oh, I
am sure you will be hearing soon, everyone got double billed on one item."

ARE YOU KIDDING ME???!!!  The DCU duplicated an item on everyone's bill?  This
is absolutely incredible!  A professional organization should have some form
of QA in place that would catch these things before they are sent to the public.
I have only had my DCU VISA card since Dec. 1989, exactly 6 months, and I have
found three major errors in their bills.

What is going on over there.  Did they hire Mike Eisner for a CEO or 
something! :-)

I hope their success rate improves, because I won't take this much more.

    Guess they dont I got double billed too.....
    
    Lloyd
    
    bet they thought they had a good business day that days !

    I hope everyone has noticed, but the interest rate is going up on the
    VISA card.  If I remember correctly it is going to 14.25.
    
    I also received a notice that CRT is going from 16.5 (someone correct
    me if I am wrong) to 17.25.
    
    Lastly, I just received a phone call from DCU saying that they need to
    order me new credit cards.  They said that VISA is forcing them to add
    some new text (she said she did not know what the text was) to the
    card.  They will order new cards and have them sent to my closest
    office so I can trade in my old ones.  Only people having cards that
    are good past a certain date will have this happen, she said.
    
    Anyone else know more?
    
    	- mark
    

	I also got double-billed on one charge.  I called up the company 
	that supposedly made the mistake.  I guess I called the wrong
	company...
		
	Sheesh.
	Sue

    I doubt it was a 100% problem, since my bill is OK.

    Was this for June?  my bill was also fine.
    

        It was the bill received in mid-June that is to be paid by
        5-july.  I can't wait to see what the next one says.  I got
        the requisite letter that they had to send out acknowleging
        the discrepency.  I have yet to hear about a correction.

    This is an official response by Mary Madden of the DCU. The portion of
    that response, dated 18-JUL-1990, that applies to this note topic is
    included below. See note 2.22 for more information. 
    
    Your comments on this response should be posted here or directed to
    to DCU directly at Mary Madden's number (dtn) 223-6735 x207.
        
    Carl Leeber
******************************************************************************

         Response to 15.186
         
         On June 19, 1990, our VISA Processor, FIRST SECURITY, 
         incorrectly double-posted account charges.  This 
         affected approximately 700 of DCU's 15,000 VISA 
         accounts.
         
         Within 24 hours, First Security detected the error and 
         made the necessary account corrections.  Those members 
         affected received the correction as a detailed line item 
         on their June 10th VISA statement.
         
         We apologize for any confusion this may have caused.  If 
         you have any questions or concerns, please contact our 
         Member Service Center at DTN/223-8444 or 508/493-8444.
         
******************************************************************************

         On June 19, 1990, our VISA Processor, FIRST SECURITY, 
         incorrectly double-posted account charges.
        ...
         Within 24 hours, First Security detected the error and 
         made the necessary account corrections. [ed note: June 20,
        1990]  Those members 
         affected received the correction as a detailed line item 
         on their June 10th VISA statement.
        
        How about that for service :-)  They say that they have
        corrected the problem 9 days before they made the mistake and
        10 days before realizing it. (Have you ever noticed that
        English has a problem with verb tenses when it comes to time
        travel?)
        
        I just received my VISAt bill yesterday, and there hasn't been
        a correction yet.  Nor have I heard anything from them
        directly.

    I just received an information sheet from DCU about the VISA card. 
    They mention the multiple level rates that are going into effect.
    
    ALong with this, they mention a couple fees that are new or I did not
    know about.
    
    Late payment charge: $ 5.00
    Overdraft charge:    $15.00
    
    In the letter that talked about these fees it said something about the
    fees will allow the members to be _served_ better (previous is not exact
    quote, but as close as my memory will allow).  The sentance that
    mentioned how this would help the members, did not make any sense.
    
     1) How many other CC companies charge a late fee?
     2) How will this help the members?
     3) I hate the double talk.  Give me facts on how it will help me.
        How much money will this bring in?  What is the reasoning behind
        this change?  (Hopefully it is not, 'Because, everyone else is
        doing it')
     4) I notice that this is being implemented at the same time they
        are changing their 'escrow' accounts for payments.  Is this a way
        to force people to use there new procedure?
    
    	- mark

fwiw;

Every CC company i've ever seen has always had both a late fee and a "returned"
check fee.

    I got the new terms & conditions pamphlet yesterday.

    I'll have to check the agreements on my other cards.  But I don't
    recall seeing a "late fee" on them.  There may be some clause about a
    penalty for overdrawing the account.

    Usually the card issuer doesn't care too much if you're late with a
    payment (unless it becomes a habit that you skip payments).  They just
    merrily allow the the interest charges to accumulate.

    I believe that the card holder's obligation is to make the payment by 
    the due date.  If not, the holder accepts additional interest charges.

    I find this new "service offering" very strange.

    
    Several of my visa cards ( I do not have one from DCU) have late
    fees.  I don't think it is unusual or that it is a new fee.  I 
    remember the being talked about in this conference last year when they
    changed all the fee structures.  Maybe someone can find that
    discussion?
    
    Amy
    

I don't mean to be too geo-centric ( :-) ).  I recall reading 
recently (wish I could remember where) that it is against 
Massachusetts law for credit card companies to charge a late fee. 
None of my credit card agreements include late fees.  However, I 
don't have a DCU credit card so I'm not sure what their notice 
says.  However, before paying one of these fees, I suggest you
check on the legality of a late fee. 

Maryellen

RE: .195

> I recall reading 
> recently (wish I could remember where) that it is against 
> Massachusetts law for credit card companies to charge a late fee. 

I rembering hearing this sane fact not too long ago during a consumer report
segment of the evening news on Channel 5.

-Andy

    What bothered me about the late fee stuff was the way they made it
    sound like it would help the members.  Read the sentence where they
    talk about the members will benefit etc...  Is this a 'You have all the
    choices you want, but you can choose only black' type of statement?

    Read it and make up your own mind.  Maybe I have read into it too much. 
    It just brought back some unpleasant memories from previous 'messages'
    from DCU.

    	- mark

from 

>Note 339.36            Mr. Cockburn's informal meetings?               36 of 70
>                       -< Notes from ZKO - 08-Nov-1991 >-

>	Things DCU did wrong with checking account fees:
>
>		timing
>		gimmick
>		no advance warning
>		pricing done wrong
>
>                   .
>                   .
>                   .
>
>	DCU does a poor job of notifying members of fees, etc.

It would appear they are still learning....

				Tom_K

    
    Talk about fees! I just ordered two boxes of new checks and the
    charge appearing on my statement was $22!  22$ for two boxes of
    checks!!!!!  Get real!
    
    Steve
    

    To correct what I said in .193 -
    
    I checked one of my other card's T&C statements.  They do have a late
    fee which is a percentage of the minimum payment due.  There is no late
    fee if the outstanding balance is less than $10.  There is a $15
    penalty if your check bounces.
    
    For an overdraft on the credit limit, there is no penalty.  However,
    the amount over the credit limit is to be paid in full along with the
    minimum payment on the remaining balance.
    
    So, the DCU fees are not out of line.

re .199 (outrageous charges for checks):

I too couldn't believe what DCU charged the last time I ordered checks.
At that time, I resolved never to get ripped off by DCU again!  Instead,
I found a place called "Checks-In-The-Mail" in California.  They charged
me about 1/3 the price of DCU checks, and they have all kinds of styles,
check designs, etc.

I ordered some NCR paper checks (since DCU charges so much for copies of
canceled checks :-( ), and the order arrived a few weeks later.  A small
problem with the order (they'd taken the starting check number off the DCU
check reorder form instead of what I asked them to start at) was resolved
by them quickly agreeing to reprint the entire order.  I was happy with
the checks I received, their customer service was great, and the price was
nothing close to what DCU charged for the same order.

"Checks-In-The-Mail" has an 800 number.  I'll try to remember to bring it
in, if someone else doesn't have it handy.

Jim

    
    The toll-free number for "Checks-In-The-Mail" is (800) 800-2432.
    
    Gotten by calling (800) 555-1212.  I ordered a catalog.
    
    -Dan

Current Inc.  also has some nice checks and decent prices.

    Well, I just had an interesting experience with my DCU Visa card.
    I made a payment yesterday using Easytouch and as always, I checked my
    balances after such transactions to make sure they took. My Visa
    balance reflected the payment I made so I called to purchase some
    tickets (in a great location) for a Boston Garden event this Saturday,
    using my Visa, the total cost of which was well within the available
    credit limit. I got a call this morning from the ticket people saying
    that I had been declined. Naturally, I was embarassed and confused but
    the ticket people said that the only information they had was that my
    credit card company had declined the charge. I called the Information
    Center at DCU to find out what was going on. The first person I talked
    to took my information and went to check. When she came back on the
    line, she said that they had not received any charges against my Visa,
    that I did indeed have the amount available that I thought I had and
    that I had no payments waiting to clear.
    
    So, I called the ticket people back to try and get more info and they
    reiterated what they told me before - it was definitely declined by my
    credit card company and once declined, they won't put any charges on
    the same card again for two weeks. 
    
    So I called DCU again and this time I was told that payments are held
    for 24 hours and that I didn't really have the available credit that
    both Easytouch and the first Info Center person said I had, BUT, they
    were going to get someone to release the credit early for me. I told
    them that it didn't matter because Boston Garden now considered me
    personna non grata for two weeks. 
    
    So, now I can either take my chances at Boston Garden Saturday night -
    cash only  -  or I can try and find a ticket outlet and pay a
    higher service charge and probably not get the same great seats. 
    
    I am not a happy camper. If DCU is going to hold an electronic transfer
    using their Easytouch system for 24 hours, then don't tell me I have
    that amount of credit available, until it really is available. Either
    fix the hold process or fix the software.
    
    I will be sending someone a formal complaint. I rarely get angry, but
    this has made me livid.

I'd suggest mailing the complaint directly to DCU. Let me/us know if you get
an unacceptable response.

    I will send my complaint directly to the DCU.
    
    BTW: I've found out that no other ticket agency sells Boston Garden
    Disney on Ice tickets so if I want to go, I will have to get the cash
    and see how lucky I am Saturday night.
    
    

    
    This seems ridiculous.  If you are transferring cash from your
    account against your credit, why do they need 24 hours.  It should
    be no different than going into a teller and have it transferred 
    out of your account against your credit card balance.  Once you've
    done that the payment has been made and they *have* the money.
    
    Steve
    

	I think I ran into this a couple of times.. I ended up going
	to a phone, transferring money BACK to my checking account and
	then going to an ATM and paying with cash.

	Quite annoying..

						mike

    I just got a call from Michelle who had been forwarded my letter
    detailing my account of my Visa fiasco. Michelle explained that
    Easytouch acknowledges my transfer transaction right away but they only
    update with Visa once a day at 3:00 p,m. so if a payment is made after
    3:00, it doesn't get to Visa until 3:00 the next day. I don't remember
    what time I made the transfer, only the date. Michelle said that they 
    are looking into possibly doing more frequent daily updates. 
    
    So, if you make a payment to your Visa, make sure you check the time
    because if it's after 15:00, you'll have to wait until 15:00 the next
    day, and - the Visa balance/available credit quoted by Easytouch isn't 
    necessarily correct until that happens.
    
    Pat
    
    p.s. I took the chance and went to Boston Garden last Saturday and they
    were sold out(Surprise!), so I had to buy tickets for this Saturday - 
    cash only - and the seats aren't as good, plus I had to pay for parking, 
    gas, etc. which I get to pay again this Saturday thank you very much.
    Plus, I got to explain to my 2-year old (crying) daughter why we were 
    leaving without seeing the ice show. It was a very entertaining
    evening.

Just got my statement for my DCU Visa -

They waived the fee...

Which is interesting in that -

I have no loan balances with DCU,

and my total savings and checking have only topped 3500 a few times in the last
year  (and never for long :-( )

could the policy have changed? 

Could they have actually listened to us?

or did I just have more money than I thought... :-)

grins,

    I was wondering if DCU has pursued updating the VISA payments to more
    than once a day at 15:00. A few months ago when I went through my
    experience of my payment not hitting until 15:00 (one update per day),
    I was told that they were looking into updating more frequently, maybe
    even 'realtime'! Does anyone know what the issues are the would prevent
    more frequent updates? Personally, I think it would be nice to update
    at least once in the morning (say 09:00) and once in the afternoon.
    BTW, this may be a moot point for me because I have been pre-approved
    for a gold card with a lower rate and no annual fee and I may just take
    them up on it.

The credit card business is getting pretty bloody.

GM and FORD are offerring credit cards that gives you a 5% 
rebate when you buy a car. (I plan to buy a Ford as my next
car so I'm getting one.)

Discover offers a small rebate.  Banks that tied into an 
airline will often waiver the annual upon request.

Citibank offers lifetime (expected) warranty for major applicances.

It's going to be tough to stay in business.

Gim

� Discover offers a small rebate.

	Yeah, it is kind of small -- I just got a check for $28. If more
places took Discover it would have been larger.  Just having been able to charge
both DECUS registrations last year would have added $10.

	Of course, since I have a fee-free Visa Gold card plus Discover, I 
canceled my $21-a-year (non-DCU) MasterCard so I consider my return this year
to be closer to $50 than $30.

					--Doug

    Well, it's me again with another chapter in the DCU VISA saga. They did
    it to me again this past weekend.
    
    I made a transfer payment Thursday morning. I knew that they only
    update the central Visa database once a day at 15:00 (from the last
    fiasco). Friday night at about 18:30, I try to charge a relatively
    small amount at the campground where I'm spending the weekend, for
    which  EasyTouch has told me I have sufficient credit. "DECLINED".
    "Excuse me?" "It's been declined" "Thanks, I'll pay cash". Embarassed,
    angry, muttering under my breath, I go to the payphone around the
    corner and EasyTouch tells me that the amount of available credit is
    what I think it is (more than the purchase). Fine. Maybe there is some
    other hidden limit which I don't know about, like you can't charge to
    within certain $$$ of your limit. I make a $50 transfer payment. I know
    it won't go in until the next day - no problem. Sunday, I had to make
    an unexpected small (less than $25.00) purchase and tried to charge
    again. This is now almost two days after the first fiasco and another
    payment. The cashier announces in a voice well-suited to a announcing
    blue-light specials in the local department store, that the sale is
    "DECLINED". Fine, I'll pay by check. Once more to the phone to find out
    that I have plenty of credit. Thanks for nothing.
    
    I just got off the phone with the information center. No, there's no
    other limit, you can charge up to your credit limit. I'm told that the
    updates to VISA now occur at 5:00 instead of 3:00 (did everybody here
    get that update with your bill?) and that's why I couldn't make a
    purchase at 6:30. I explained again that even if it somehow missed the
    update on Thursday, it should have been done on Friday - in plenty of
    time for me to make my purchase. And what about the second payment? "Oh
    yeah" Put on hold - "We're in the VISA terminal now and you're all set -
    you can go out and charge again - we fixed it!!" Yippee! Too late!!
    
    I'm fed up with this. I'm dumping my DCU VISA as soon as I find the
    best deal anywhere else. I'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt once
    and try them again. "MY" credit union just did it to me once too often.
    "Dad, how come they won't take your credit card? Didn't you pay the
    bill?" "Yes, the bill has been more than paid. For some reason, it's
    not going through" "Why do you stay with this credit union?" "I'm
    wondering the same thing myself." My 10 year old and me Friday night. I
    guess if my 10 year old can figure it out, so can I.
    
    Don't even get me started about EasyTouch being unavailable on Father's
    Day.
    
    Chuck, if you're reading this - this is the kind of thing that pisses
    people off so much that you lose them. It shouldn't happen. I'm going
    to thoroughly enjoy cutting up my DCU VISA card when I replace it with
    a financial institution that knows what it's doing.

re: .214

>   I'm fed up with this. I'm dumping my DCU VISA as soon as I find the
>    best deal anywhere else.

Shouldn't take long to find a better deal than the DCU Visa.  I get
at least one pre-approved deal in the mail every week that beats DCU
Visa.  And your experience is by no means isolated -- I had the same
thing happen twice, and that's why I dumped DCU Visa.

	Steve

EasyTouch should have an audible timestamp in their messages. Then we could
record what easytouch says v. what we find out upon a verifiable attempted
transaction and have some basis for "discussion". No intervening DCU 
transactions ought to cement the issue.

-Jack

    I had the same thing happen with my checking account over memorial day
    weekend.  Talk about being E M B A R A S S E D !! My husband's check
    had been deposited on Friday and I was trying to write a check against
    it on Saturday and no deal.  I couldn't wait to get home to check the
    balance.  I thought I had overdrawn big time.  I was was so upset it
    didn't even call the number on the card they give you.  Now I know it's
    DCU and their funny games uh?