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Conference unifix::sailing

Title:	SAILING
Notice:	Please read Note 2.* before participating in this conference
Moderator:	UNIFIX::BERENS

Created:	Wed Jul 01 1992
Last Modified:	Mon Jun 02 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	2299
Total number of notes:	20724

2295.0. "Some observations from the boat show" by DECC::CLAFLIN (Doug Claflin dtn 381-6355) Mon Feb 17 1997 09:52

I went to the Boston boat show this weekend.  Actually ran into some other 
Digital people while there.  I met up with Mark Eklof as planned. Prior to
that, I had a few minutes to look around.  Since I am not in the market to
buy a boat, my views tended to be more in terms of those things I might
want to do to improve my boat.  So I was much more interested in the small
booths than in the big boat displays.  Indeed, thoguh the majority of the
boats were power boats, I went on board only one trawler.  There were alot
of power boats.

First and foremost, I bought an Eldgridge for $6.95 plus tax.  This is the
cheapest price that I am waware of.

I wanted to talk about the sail boats I went on, so that others can add
their voices.  I saw four sail boats in the 38' mumble size.  I saw a
couple of larger and smaller boats beyound that.  

The general impression that I had was that I liked the two Sabres best (wow
big surprise).  My second choice in that size range was a Catalina (even
over some bigger names).

I am going to pick on the Sabre 38 for both things I did and did not like.  
This will be my reference.  Other boats will be compared to it.  These are
not in any particular order.  In general if I mention something on the
Sabre, it is likely to be noticably inferior on another 38 mumble boat.

The trend even down to the 26' Catalina was to have wheel steering.  All
wheels were "destroyer type".  About half of them had a suede leather liner
on them for grip and warmth.  I like the look of spokes better, but must
confess that smooth outer rims do not tangle with lines.  One wheel was
gigantic.  It swept forward and sort of engulfed the steering pedestal.  I
had two problems with this one, the resulting well in the cockpit would
collect dirt water and my sunglasses.  And ,tThe wheel had a zillion custom
bent spokes.  All were weaker than the straight would have been, and far
harder to repair.  This particular boat also had instrumentation that
resided at the ankles of the helmsan.  At least these instruments could
have been angled upward so you could see them.

The side decks of both Sabre's was a joy.  The shrouds mounted inboard (by
the coach).  The decks were wide and had good tall life lines.  I found
some life lines that stopped below my knees.  These would actually be safer
if removed.  Others had weak looking stanchions etc.  Indeed the Sabre
42(?) side decks were wide enough to be pleasant lounging areas at anchor. 
The toe rails provided good bracing for feet.  Other toe rails tapered to
flush with the deck (essentially worthless) or were rounded for styling
(again essentially worthless).  The deck had solid non skid (sort of a grit
instead of the square patterns type).  The anchor well opened with a hatch,
that could be dogged down.  Two small drain holes got rid of incidental
water.  None of the anchor wells lent itself to good stowage of multiple
anchors.  Bow chocks looked big enough to be useful.  I did not like the
leads from any of the chocks to the bow cleats.  Sabre was among the best. 
Bow cleats were large enough to be useful.  Leads were reasonably fair if
the port rode went to the starborad cleat.  The Sabres had traditional teak
grab rails on the coach.  I like these better than metal.  One boat had
essentially worthless grab rails (you coule only grip about once every two
feet.  The Dorades were protected.

The Sabre cockpit had lines run aft to it.  The leads from the lines to the
winches were fair.  At least one boat extensive "buried" the lines in
enclosed tubes.  Even at the show, they had messengers rigged for the empty
tubes.  Just try fixing tha on a bouncing deck.  Then again, the leads
weren't very fair, so I guess running on deck would not have hurt.  The
inboard line clutch on  the Sabre was a little awkward.  The wheel  was
large enough to be reached from both sides, but you could still pass around
it.  One feature found on almost all boats was a gate down to the transom. 
This gate was secured with just one life line.  Sabre was better than
others in the pushpit having stainless steel bracing on the lower portion
of the puspit, and a pass through small enough to making falling trough
backwards difficult.  Still I would preferr  some sort of latching door
(you could make one easily enough).  Just eye balling, I would say that the
cockpit drains were adequate, not generous).  I think I saw two 1 1/2
drains. Others were far worse.  I liked the custom transom fittings for the
stern chocks to their respective cleats.

The companionway on the Sabre was the best was the best of the lot.  Steps
were evenly space (not true on others) and nicely spaced.  There was  a
wonderful grab rail around the companion way hatch.  There were also grab
rails on both sides of the steps.  The campanion way had a more pronounced
V than others.  This would be good for wash boards.  I did not see evidence
of lock downs for individual wash boards.

Both Sabres had a three cabin layout.  The main salon was open and yet
pretty secure.  While there were grab rails down the outboard ceiling,
there was not one in the center.  The galley of the 42 was excellent, the
36 was still pretty nice (good for coastal cuising).  There was a deep
double stainless sink in each, located roughly admidships.  Bracing for the
cook was pretty good (excellent in the 42).  Gimbaled stoves and ovens were
the rule of the day.

The Sabres had generaous heads.  Each had a stadup dedicated shower area,
with a seperate drain.  I confess that I would like a shower every couple
of days, and a rinse after saltwater swimming.

Sabre used a pine for some of their paneling.  I found that this still gave
the warm wood feel I like so much, while lightening up from the traditional
teak.  

The standard aft cabin was under the cockpit.  Like others, the Saber
provided good engine access by removing a cowl here and the comapnionway.
All boats tried to do some sound proofing.  Poor engine installation on one
boat had already damaged the sound proofing on one boat.

Instrumentation mounting for the cockpit, was provided in the aft cabin. 
There is a little access port.  You could put maybe three instruments in
there.  This provided one of my biggest complaints with the Sabre.  You
could drop a screw down between the deck pan and the cockpit pan.  I have
no idea how you would ever get the annoying rattle out, once this happened.

The V berth on both Sabres was nice.  Mark noted on the 36 that there was
not quite enough foot space.  I noted on the 42 that there was "wasted"
floor space.  I liked both.

The main salon was differnt but well laid out in both the 36 and 42.  In
both cases the keel stepped mast did not intrude, but aligned with the
bulkhead seperating the foreward cabin.  The Catalina forward bulkhead had
panels which slide out to open the main cabin even more (26 footer).  This
would work for a family, probably not for others.

The table looked solid and closed out of the way on both Sabres.  Chain
plate turnbuckles were visible below.  These were substanitally beefer than
on other boats.  They did not intrude on standing headroom.

My general impression was that there was superior ventalation on the 36
compared to the 42.  However both seemed to be pretty good.  Even after a
day of people tramping through, neither boat was hot or stuffing feeling
below.  Other boats were "close" feeling below.

Sorry, I did not pay much attention to prop, keel, bilge, rudder, stuffing
box etc.

I thought the Sabre was the nicest boat I saw there, both for sailing and
hanging on the hook.  I imagine their price tag reflects that.  My guess is
that the Catalina was the best deal for the money.  I found that the
quality and desgn of the Catalina was better than other presumably more
expensive boats.  Though not a Sabre, I think this would be my second
choice, especailly when price is conseidered.

I just want to mention the keel on the Island Packet 46?.  This Island
Packet had a full keel that was fairly shoal.  The most interesting part
about the keel was its bottom.  I rather expected to find a big center
board that would add a foot or two to the draft.  Instead it was a solid
keel.  The bottom was not only flat, but EXTREMELY wide perhaps two feet.
I can't help but wonder if this compromises windward capability too much.
As a comparision, the full keel on Holiday II also becomes flat but is only
about 8" wide.  Of course Holiday II is a much smaller boat.

Hope this is of interest.

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
2295.1		UNIFIX::BERENS	Alan Berens	`Mon Feb 17 1997 12:41`	43
	I've always wondered why builders bring so many large boats to boat shows. Is it that they're pandering to the dreams of the masses? Really now, how many people can afford boats costing more than a median-price house? I'd rather see boats I can realistically afford to buy. I haven't bothered to go to the Boston Boat Show in several years. I've been to the Maine Boatbuilders Show in Portland (March 21-23 this year) the last three years or so. Lots of nice, small boats I could afford to buy or even build and exhibitors with things I'm interested in -- like boat lumber, industrial-duty tools, etc. No metal flake paint jobs, either. re .0: >>> The trend even down to the 26' Catalina was to have wheel steering. Sigh. Tillers are cheaper, more reliable, and use less cockpit space. I like mine, ain't gonna change. Hummm, see Note xxxx for the wheel/tiller religious argument. >>> The anchor well opened with a hatch, that could be dogged down. I've never seen much value in an anchor well. They're never big enough for a reasonable anchor and rode, the anchor isn't as accessible as it is on a decent bow roller, and the well makes mounting a windlass difficult. >>> I did not like the leads from any of the chocks to the bow cleats. Yup, been a problem since chocks were invented. Take a look at the hawse pipes in the bulwarks on a Valiant. Very large-radius rounded edges and no way for a rode or pennant to jump out. After a rather bad hurricane in Marblehead our pennants had no visible chafe. >>> The campanion way had a more pronounced V than others. This would be >>> good for wash boards. I did not see evidence of lock downs for >>> individual wash boards. The more pronounced (wider) the V, the less the boards have to be lifted to be removed, which makes for significantly less safety in a knockdown. Catalina is a prime offender in this regard -- very wide V and a very wide companionway. Best of all is a straight-side companionway.
2295.2	V compainion ways	DECC::CLAFLIN	Doug Claflin dtn 381-6355	`Mon Feb 17 1997 13:29`	40
	Where/how much is the Maine boat show. Might be a fun thing to do. Of course I could be working on my deck some more. Anyone have a hand held belt sander I can bum in April for a day or two do deck flattening? In the for what it is worth catagory, from what I understand many people will even impulse buy a big Sabre, Island Packet etc. Not a problem for me, $275 in sail repair was a significant hit to my monthly budget out here. I suspect it is even more pronounce with ski boats etc. My tiller works for me. However, I am not convinced about the less room arguement. It certainly is reliable, and offers a good feel for what is going on. Still the trend seems to be in favor of wheels. The Island Packet and the Sabre's both had pretty good anchor wells. By that I mean they look like a coupla three hundred feet of rode plus an anchor would fit in nicely. However, I would hate to have that much chain at my stem. The Island Packet also had an installed windlas in the anchor well, complete with a permanently stowed windlas handle for emergencies. Nice touch that. However, the anchor wells were deep and weird shaped. A real mess to reach into. Also (like Holiday II) there was no prevision for more than one rode. Hence only one anchor can be quickly deployed. Bow chocks etc. I have never seen a Valiant up close. Perhaps I'll see yours some time. Holiday II does have chocks and a pretty nice deck arrangement. The chocks are close to the stem, and I have two big cleats in the center of the foredeck behind the chain pipe. Alan advocated verticle wash boards. This is in conflict with mumble in the "Desirable and Undesriable ad infinitum ...". I see both argeuments. Start with, boards are not worth much unless they can be locked into place. The book indicated that you want an easily removed wash board, hence the V. Alan's counter arguement is that the V makes it too easy to remove the wash board. Has conventional wisom changed? Is Holiday II now back in vogue? In either case, I think it is safe to say that a wide companion way can be bad, to easy to ship water etc. Who would have thought that there were things to learn by looking at dream machines.
2295.3		UNIFIX::BERENS	Alan Berens	`Tue Feb 18 1997 08:59`	34
	re anchor wells: While putting the anchor, rode, and windlass in a well tidies up the foredeck nicely, all is not as nifty as it appears at the boat show. 1. Getting a fair lead to the windlass is difficult. It would be difficult or impossible to use the windlass for anything other than a rode over the bow roller. 2. Since the well is (usually) at the very bow, the rode has to be stowed in the well. Windlass life is certainly increased by plopping a wet rode over it. It is also very difficult to stow any significant length of chain in the well. 3. Most importantly, if the windlass is in a well, manually operating the windlass (if manual only or if the electrics or hydraulics fail) is awkward at best. The handle for our deck-mounted manual windlass is just long enough that I can crank standing up and well-braced. If the windlass were in a well, I'd have to kneel while operating it. My back and knees ache horribly at the mere thought. Manual windlasses are slow. Bringing in a chain rode while kneeling would be agony. 4. In my experience with our windlass, getting the chain to strip from the gypsy and self-stow is problematic, even though the chain falls vertically some two feet into a locker under the V-berths. I'd not want to try clearing a jam on a windlass down in a well. We once had a CQR 45 and 40' of chain run free off the deck (not intentionally). Scary enough just standing behind the windlass. Grim if I'd been reaching down into a well. In my dream boat, the windlass would be just in front of the mast and the hawse pipe would have a Y-junction so that two separate chain rodes would be available and the chain would stow in a deep locker in the bilge.
2295.4		LEXSS1::GINGER	Ron Ginger	`Tue Feb 18 1997 09:38`	13
	As to the Maine Boatbuilders Show. It is the only boat show I go to. One very important note- the name is BOATBUILDER. boat DEALERS are not allowed. So you talk to the guy that builds the boats, not some salesman. There are some brokers of used boats there, and a few marinas. But it is a show for builders. It is at the Portland Yacht Yard, down on the waterfront, in an old brick mill bulding. Essentially in the shadow of the BIW floating drydock. Note that the 'other' boat show is usully going on the same weekend, and if you ask most people for directions you will end up at the plastic show in some convention center.
2295.5	Since I wasn't shopping I didn't look too close	MILKWY::MILKWY::SAMPSON	Driven by the wind	`Wed Feb 19 1997 09:24`	33
	A couple of small useless points. Interesting doug, it sounds like your picks of favorite boats was along similar lines of the cruising world Boat Of The Year picks. I didn't know that until after we went, if I had maybe I'd have looked at those boats closer. As for selling those boats that I can't fathom affording, there are people who can afford those things. Encountering some of the other F-27 owners has blown my mind in respect to what is meant by disposable income. One of the first other owners we met was taking delivery on his new boat, the show boat from 1994. He had recently participated in in a race (in his other F-27) where he was holing off 40' tri's down wind averaging better tha 18 knots. He pithed the boat 2 miles from the finish. Since he couldn't get an insurance settlement fast enough to maintain his racing schedule he bought a new boat, in cash, while waiting out the settlement. That's more disposable income than I can fathom, working to pay off my bargain priced factory main sail. There are other owners around of F-27 who have bought these boats in cash, like the original owner of our boat and one a friend is buying, who loose titles on the boat because it was such an insignificant purchase. They tend to be doctors, I don't know why. Also I don't know if you've ever seen "Wired". Steve Garland's boat. I've seen it in four different encarnations. He's got a new, very large, boat every couple of years and he pays someone to drive it in races for him. He's an orthadontist, hense the name "Wired". It blows my mind but some people really have banks worth of money in their pocket and live in this area. Oh, I like tillers myself. I've never used a wheel, but would expect initial confusion and less feel of the helm and ballance. I suspect that if ordering many of these boats, you might be able to specify that it be equipped with a tiller rather tahn a wheel. Just a guess. Aren't tillers better for use in windvane steering? Geoff
2295.6		UNIFIX::BERENS	Alan Berens	`Wed Feb 19 1997 09:55`	31
	re .5: Oh sure, there are people with much more money than you or I, but they are still relatively few compared to the masses. No doubt boatbuilders have to serve their customers just like any other business. Got a newsletter from a Sabre dealer recently. Seems that the new Sabre 406 (or whatever) is a very successful boat -- Sabre sold 22 the first year. Not exactly mass production even though Sabre is a production builder. I find the assumptions underlying these "boat of the year" reviews/articles quite annoying. Just because a boat was first produced this year doesn't make it a great or even good boat. It may be better than the other new boats and still be a lousy boat. 'Tis a shame the articles never compare this year's "best" with last year's "best" or the "best" of the boats currently in production. Somewhat better was the Cruising World reader survey a while back that tried to pick the best boats of the last 10 years. Very few boats are built in any quantity or for very long. Those that are bought in large numbers or that are built for a very long time might be reasonably called "best" something. Two boats that have been in production for over 20 years are the Valiant 40 and the Hinckley Bermuda 40. (If I were to buy a bigger boat, it would be a Valiant 40, nothing else.) Think 20 years from now Hunter will still be building that dreadfully ugly new 340? And yes, windvanes work much better with tillers than wheels. I notice that the Bermuda One-Two folks are giving a three second per mile credit for using a windvane. My Monitor vane steers very well, better than I do much of the time (it doesn't get sleepy during the 0000 to 0400 watch). Alan
2295.7	For the masses	MILKWY::MILKWY::SAMPSON	Driven by the wind	`Thu Feb 20 1997 08:33`	25
	This note crossed my mind last night and I thought about the masses. Unfortunately I would speculate that the masses are drawn to the power driven boats. I would also expect that the biggest number of boats sold from an initial contact made at the Boston boat show are jet skis and small runabout size high speed power boats. These can easily attract the masses because they're small enough to be towed behind the family or personal car, they may cost a little less than that car, and after the money you don't need a clue, just gasoline. Selling larger sail boats, it's probably an opportunity for someone to see a variety of offerings in one place. I would expect the person who is truely looking to buy has decided the range of size they're looking at before they go to the show. They are also probabaly going on a weekday so they can get a better loook and more devoted attention from the brokers. I know that when we were actually shopping for a boat, we went on a Friday, actually to Newport, early in the morning, had the place almost to ourselves and got a lot of devoted attention from the rep.s. This past weekend I was interested in discussing some finer upgrade points about our boat with the dealer, but if he had an opportunity to discuss a potential sale, which occured about three times while I was talking to him, I'd let our conversation fall off as he was there to make sales. I'd expect if any sales are actually closed at the show I expect the person walks in knowing they are going to buy today. Geoff Who enjoys self steering, but is a slave to electricity (and I did loose my battery once)
2295.8	I can dream can't I????	OGOPW1::ogodhcp-125-128-69.ogo.dec.com::Kalinowski		`Thu Mar 06 1997 12:16`	19
	re. 1 Hey Alan, not everyone works for DEC ;>) Actually, I like going on the bigger boats. Sure I can't afford them today, but I might be able to afford them used in 5 years. There are certain late model boats I keep my eye out for in the listings just because I remember being impressed with certain features when they showed them at the new boat show years earlier. The second thing I like to do is look at the listings. The magazines have only so many listings. At the show, they have pictures so you see why two boats have very different prices (hopefully). Finally, I have a chance to ask tough questions of factory reps. The magazines only tell you the good. Ask the opposition what to look for and you are then informed. The only thing I don't like are the convertion building folks. The attendees are happy, the boat builders are happy, but the clown selling mile high apple pie couldn't care less and knows next week's meat slaugthing convention is just as boring. Love to be able to "dunk the dope" sometimes from their bad karma.
2295.9	Tartan T3500	AOSG::LANZA		`Thu Mar 06 1997 15:57`	12
	Gee didn't anyone see the Tartan T3500? I happen to be partial because I'm buying one but I think it's a much better boat that the Sabre 362 althought there are a great deal of similarities. I thought that the 362 was small. The tartan had a smaller salon due to the placement of the head/shower but the v-berth has much better footroom than the sabre and the rear cabin is larger. The cabinetry in the Tartan is better as well, all handrubbed teak. It has a great nav-station as well which is behind the galley where the navigator can communicate with the helmsperson. Ports are better and there's more storage.