Conference unifix::sailing

    I have two British Seagulls and have used them for many years.  I have
    found them to be simple, reliable engines. Almost without exception
    people generally react to them with negative looks and comments.
    Anybody out there who uses them too?  Have any comments?
    
    Jeff

    Oh, I do have Seagulls Manuals, and parts lists.
    
    Jeff

    I have an old (1908) marine engine I use often. I believe keeping the
    oil mix high is the best route. To much oil will foul the plug, surely
    a pain, but to little oil will blow the bearings, usually the upper rod
    end.
    
    1:10 seems excessive, but I would not go less than about 1:20.
    
    Seagulls are a 'love/hate' kind of thing. They really were designed as
    throw-away for WWII use. They have survived because good basic
    engineering is always appreciated.
    
    One line from the owners manual I always liked was something like 
    	"if it hasen't started in 2 or 3 pulls, stop yanking the cord like
    	a fool and figure out whats wrong".

    They were originally designed as throw-aways for WW II, thats true.
    But they were modified for the consumer market (read, cheapened)
    [laugh] after the war.  Actually they were improved.
    
    The 10-1 oil ratio is appropriate for Seagulls, they are designed to
    run on that ratio.
    
    As far as other outboards are concerned (OMC for example), its risky
    to richen up the oil in the fuel too much, not so much because of spark
    plug fouling but because of PING.  The oil reduces the octane of the 
    gasoline.  Ping is tough to HEAR in a 2 stroke. Outboards 'should' be
    run on premium gasoline to lessen the risk of ping, and at the mfgrs'
    fuel-oil ratio... only slightly richened.
    
    Jeff

My outboard's manual recommends 100:1 ratio. I'm not sure why they
recommend such a high ratio, but I'd guess that it reduces air
pollution.

--RS

    100:1.  I would think a 4 stroke would be the way to go regarding 
    reducing air pollution. Maybe your right, but of course the engine
    would have to be designed for that ratio.
    
    Jeff

	Re. .4
	Using a higher octane reduces PING.
	
	How does it effect 
		a) ease of starting
		b) ability to idle without dying
		c) power

	I have a 8HP Mariner 2-stroke.

		Mike

I used to run a Yamaha 2-stroke which specified a 100:1 ratio. I think the main
reason for heading towards these very lean fuel-oil mixes is not air but sea
pollution, remembering where the exhaust usually discharges. The problem I
always had was measuring the relatively small quantity of oil needed to mix with
1 gallon of fuel - which was usually enough to last me a little over one season!
In practice, I probably ran at between 50:1 and 75:1, erring on the side of
caution.

I heard some years back that British Seagull changed their recomendation from
10:1 to (I think) 25:1. When asked what changes they had made to the engineering
to allow this, they said, "We didn't make any changes. We just tried it, and it
works fine!" If only all product development were that easy...

- Brian

��I heard some years back that British Seagull changed their recomendation from
��10:1 to (I think) 25:1. When asked what changes they had made to the engineering
��to allow this, they said, "We didn't make any changes. We just tried it, and it
��works fine!" If only all product development were that easy...
    I've read, although not specific to British Seagull, that
    improvements in the oil quality over the years have allowed
    the leaner oil/gas ratios.

    Seagull, the lucas of outboards -- prince of rowing.

    A few back someone asked what running premium does for ease of starting
    etc?
    
    I have no idea. All I can say is that I have very few problems with my
    25 HP Johnson and I normally run it on premium.
    
    I DID have terrible problems with fuel I had stored over the winter
    (with fuel stabilizer) one year.  The gasoline lost its 'punch' and
    every time I throttled down the engine would stall.  Fresh gas solved
    that.
    
    I suppose that Seagulls have a very low compression ratio,
    otherwise the high oil content in the fuel mix would tend to cause
    ping.
    
    Also, Seagulls don't idle very well, they tend to stall and work best
    at WOT.
    
    Jeff
    

    A while back I was talking w/ my Merc dealer (Green's Marine, Hooksett
    N.H.) about gas oil mixture for my 1990 5 hp merc.
    Steve was telling me that for some throttle settings my merc would
    be happy with 100:1 gas:oil, (high throttle settings, I think) but at
    other throttle settings they sometimes seized at 100:1. I think we were
    discussing the imprecise shape of the plastic pint bottles that the
    Quicksilver oil came in that always seemed to have an inch of oil
    above the 16 oz. mark, and he was assurring me that it really wasn't
    critical unless you got closer to 100:1 than 50:1. But even if they
    don't seize with a leaner mixture, I suspect wear increases.
    
    Bill
    

    Exactly, the further away you get from the recommended ratio (leaner)
    the faster the engine will wear.
    
    Rich Johnson (remember him, the outboard repair guru who used to spend
    allot of time in boating?) recommended to me that I run all my outboads
    on premium for the reason I cited in an earlier entry..... can't hear
    ping in a 2 stroke, and the way to eliminate/reduce it is to run
    premium.  The discussion also stated that modern regular gasoline
    is 'crap' compared to the regular of 20 years ago or so.  It even
    went so far as to state that the premium of today (except the ultra
    ultra Sunoco stuff) is equivalant to the regular of yesterday.
    
    This makes sense to me.
    
    Movies a while back used to make a big deal of 'high octane aviation
    gasoline' with the implication (in a crash) being that it would burn
    faster than regular gasoline.  I bet you couldn't measure the burn
    rate difference except in a laboratory, and, it would burn more SLOWLY
    not faster because knock resistance as in premium fuel burns more 
    SLOWLY to resist knock which is an extra fast burn rate that tries to knock
    the piston back before TDC.
    
    

    Well, I called IMTRA Corp, in New Bedford Ma. who a couple of people
    had named as the east coast rep for Seagull. I called, and they told me
    that they no longer deal in British Seagull. They gave me the number
    of a place in Florida called "Sailor Man" 305 522-6716 and 800 523-0772
    and talked with Brian. They deal in lots of other used and new stuff
    as well as Seagull. He is mailing me the parts that I need.
    He also said that Seagull is coming out with a bunch of "new" models
    with higher horsepower in the 5-15 range. 
    I believe that he said that they deal in used
    Seagulls and parts but were becoming a dealer for new Seagulls soon.
    It turns out that mine is a 1967 model. Has gold paint on the flywheel,
    which is apparently one measure of vintage.
    
    	He said the older motors like mine needed 1:10 oil ratio ond the
    newer ones wanted 1:25 ratio. Don't know if he knew that or was just
    quiting the manuals. It sure makes sense to me that nothing may have
    changed, cause I know oils have gotten a lot better over the years.
    For the time being, at least, I am running 1:10, but the exhaust
    bubbles sure do smoke when they surface.
    
    It didn't run well on its maiden voyage Saturday, but I'm quite sure
    it's a fuel flow problem. It starts and runs fine at first and then
    gets fuel starved and runs roughly and then stalls. Time to clean
    the fuel system.
    
    Bill
    

��    had named as the east coast rep for Seagull. I called, and they told me
��    that they no longer deal in British Seagull. They gave me the number
��    of a place in Florida called "Sailor Man" 305 522-6716 and 800 523-0772
��    and talked with Brian. They deal in lots of other used and new stuff
    Sailorman is a cool place.  A big warehouse full of used
    stuff.  It seemed overpriced to me.  They also have
    odd'n'ends of new stuff at great prices.  It's near
    the Ft. Lauderdale airport, so if you're in the area,
    it convienient to stop by.  (State Road 84 at Federal
    Highway)

��    gets fuel starved and runs roughly and then stalls. Time to clean
��    the fuel system.
    And then the inside of the fuel tank will rust some more, and
    more crap will clog the fuel system, you'll clean it, it'll
    rust some more...   Great design.

    Yup, Lee, there was a lot of crud in the fuel tank. What's the best way
    to clean? Just keep rinsing w/ gas and dumping out?
    
    I also found a sparkplug w/ too long a reach. The piston was hammering
    the ground electrode down to .008 gap. Doesn't look like the piston
    is damaged tho. Does have a shiny spot where it was hitting the plug.
    It looks pretty black and grungy on the piston, but it didn't appear to
    be a build-up of hardened "coke". What can/should one do to clean
    things up in there? just run it well and long? I don't want to pull the
    head unless it becomes essential. Interesting that the head has raised
    letters near the head bolts that say "DON'T REMOVE". Is that just a
    caution that if you pull the head, you may need new gaskets?
    
    At first, I was taken aback in that the gasket between the carb bowl
    and the body of the carb was in rough shape, but then I spotted the
    drilled hole in the side of the bowl where it drips when you press the
    flooding button. That sure ventilates the bowl more than a split
    gasket. This baby is starting to look like an ecological
    dinosaur.
    
    

    The Seagull gas tanks are made of BRASS (the older ones) and plastic,
    (the newer ones). The tanks can hardly rust!  The stuff in his tank is
    old gas/oil which should have been drained before storage but wasn't.
    
    I have owned 4 different British Seagulls over the years and have no
    more fuel flow problems than with any other outboard. The trick is to
    keep the fuel tank clean internally and water out of it. 
    
    Gulls do corrode COSMETICALLY a bit in places, but so do all outboards.
    
    Generally I have found them to be simple to repair RELIABLE outboards.
    
    One does have to do the things necessary to keep an engine operational:
    Basic maintenance, such as clean water free gas with the proper oil
    ratio, ok spark plug, and rinse cooling system with fresh water after
    salt water use.
    
    He should NOT remove the cylinder head for decarbonizing. The Gulls
    don't build up excess carbon even with the high oil ratio mix.  It
    even SAYS ON the cylinder head, 'DON'T REMOVE'.
    
    If you do remove the head you must have a replacement head gasket
    (copper I think). You can't reuse the old gasket.
    
    Jeff

    I was wondering about the spray "Tune Up" that Mercury sells as
    part of its "Quicksilver" line. I think it's supposed to help get
    rid of carbon inside the cylinder. Anybody had any experience with it?
    
    Bill
    

��                      <<< Note 2148.16 by SALEM::GILMAN >>>
��                                   -< Gulls >-

��    The Seagull gas tanks are made of BRASS (the older ones) and plastic,
��    (the newer ones). The tanks can hardly rust!  The stuff in his tank is
��    old gas/oil which should have been drained before storage but wasn't.

    The seagull my dad had certainly had a steel tank.  Why would
    I lie?   

��    Gulls do corrode COSMETICALLY a bit in places, but so do all outboards.
    Ha, ha.  What other modern manufacturer used unpainted,
    un-anodized aluminum?  Maybe all the aluminum-oxide causes
    alzheimer's in the owners  --   makes them think they can polish
    shi^h^h^hthe aluminum.

    If your Dads' Gull had a steel tank then it had a steel tank. I have
    never seen a steel tank on a Seagull before.  Didn't OMC routinely
    sell steel tanks before they came out with the plastic ones?
    
    Alumimum.  The only place I have had corrosion on the alumimum on my
    Gull is where the steering handle slides on the casting it connects
    to.  
    
    You apparently have your mind set against this brand outboard as I have
    mine set for them and I doubt there is much either of us are likely to
    be able to do to change the others opinion.
    
    Jeff

    I made a copper gas tank for my antique engine. It had lots of trouble
    with black crud in the tank. A boat builder friend had an advisory from
    the coast Guard that said modern gasoline has some additive that reacts
    with copper creating black gunk.
    
    Brass is mostly copper.

    Diesel fuel reacts vigorously with copper, so I am not suprised
    gasoline does to some extent too.
    
    All I can say is that I have never had a problem with black gunk in
    my brass British Seagull fuel tanks, EXCEPT when I bought them used and the
    prior owner had left fuel for years in the tank.  This would happen in 
    any tank with gas left in it for years.  The black gunk in the STEEL OMC
    tank I bought used was beyond belief.
    
    Gulls properly maintaned do not have a problem with black gunk in
    the tanks that I am aware of.
    
    What is this? The hit on British Seagull string?
    
    The British Seagull is designed to be a low maintenance, simple,
    reliable outboard, and, in my experience the goals have been met.
    
    Jeff

    Last night I Draino ed my tank and then gave it a couple of acetone
    rinses. After comparing the proper "Champion" plug with the AC that
    came in it (which was being hit by the piston), there was barely a
    discernable difference in length (maybe 1/32 or 1 mm difference in
    reach) but the piston no longer compresses the plug gap from .020
    to .008. Hopefully, I'm mostly in business now. If my throttle cable
    would only arrive from Sailor Man, I'd be ready to leave for Maine
    on Monday.
    
    Bill
    

    A few years ago we acquired a 1956 British Seagull. After a little
    clean up and with modest yearly maintenance, it has *never*
    failed us. 
    
    Admittedly, it's not a very pretty thing to look at (brass tank and
    all), but it has that certain character, that certain je-ne-sais-quoi 
    that sets it apart from the masses and causes other boaters to look 
    twice and call over to us asking what type of motor it is.
    
    It doesn't get us there fast, it doesn't get us there in style, but
    it does get us there. :-)
    
    Kathy

    Exactly Kathy.  I am suprised at one comment you made.  "Brass tank 
    and all", implies that a brass tank is unattractive?  Plastic is 
    better?  Some old time outboard lovers would 'kill' for brass tanks.
    
    Oh well, the newer generation is so used to plastic that it sees
    plastic as pretty and genuine brass as ugly.  Sigh.
    
    Laugh.
    
    Jeff

    Actually, I like the brass tank. My comment was more to emphasize
    that our tank *is* brass, not plastic or aluminum. 
    
    Kathy