Conference unifix::sailing

    According to Ferenc Mate, the best way is to use a sharp blade to cut
    down the sides of the channel, then hammer down a file handle and
    flatten to the same width as the channel, and rout by hand, bearing
    down hard to get every scrap of caulking. He says don't use cotton
    backing, because it isn't needed any more, the Detco Two-part
    Polysulphide (the ONLY thing to use) will expand and flex as needed by
    itself.
    
    Then, get a flat belt sander and run it LIGHTLY across the whole deck
    to smooth it all down, including the caulk which needs a couple of
    weeks to settle down in the groove.
    
    

    Applying the primer before cauling can't hurt, either. And get EVERY
    BIT of the old stuff out!

There was an article in, I think, WoodenBoat recently about repairing
teak decks. The current issue or the one before perhaps? Anyway, proper
repair is a horrendously time-consuming and expensive job, certainly
not, as I recall, one to be undertaken afloat. There are significant
problems with using two-part caulks (like just mixing the stuff 
properly). The one-part kind is satisfactory. 

I'd suggest reading the article before doing anything else. 

Alan

    I just finished this same beastly task. This is what worked well for
    me....
    
    Take a 10 inch bastard file and wrap a soft rag around the file and use
    the tip (the end that goes into a handle) as the "scraper to get the
    old polysulfide out). The width is equal to or slightly smaller than
    the channel that will be in your wood. That's good, because you can
    scrape down each edge by itself to get the old stuff off. Go down as
    deep as the current grooves. Mine varied. I also took a propane torch
    to a screw driver and bent the shaft to allow "picking" particularly
    nasty bits out of deep holes.
    
    Scrape the channels CLEAN. Once an area is done, take a hand wisk broom
    and really clean out those channels of all the bits of gunk you
    created. I promise you, the scraping job is not a great deal of fun,
    but if your polysulfide is really bad, it comes out pretty quick.
    Once you broomed it out, take 1 inch tape and tape over the wood you
    don't want to get your "black death" into. Basically, I took an area of
    about 2 feet by 3 or 4 feet at a time, using normal masking tape and
    taped over everying but the grooves. You'll understand the black death
    name the first time you try to get this stuff off your skin!!!
    
    Take disposable latex gloves and put them on! Open a tube of goop. I
    used Silkaflex 214 or 205 I think, I'll have to verify. Squeeze the
    stuff into the grooves in such a way you don't leave bubbles in the
    stuff (ideally, pushing the bead in front of you works best). Then,
    once you have some in about 12 to 18 inches of joint, take a flexible
    shaping utensil (the thin kind they use for fiberglass or auto body
    putty - I got mine at an auto store) and use it to smooth out the line
    you just put in. Work the line lengthwise back and forth, crosswise and
    then lengthwise again. Finally, smooth it. Once you get a small area
    done (working from bow to aft), pull off the tape and leave it to dry.
    DO NOT WALK IN THAT AREA FOR AT LEAST 12 HOURS or you'll understand the
    meaning of "serious MESS". 
    
    Put the tape in a plastic trash bag as you pull it off. Also, keep LOTS
    of paper towels handy to wipe your body putty tool off to keep it
    clean. It will give you a much better edge.
    
    Doing it this way allowed me to do the entire deck and cockpit of our
    Alden 36 while at dock or anchor without electrical tools. It also
    allowed me to be somewhat messy when spreading my silkaflex because I
    could put pressure on it to get it flat and fill all holes. Any
    overspill simply went onto the tape, which COMPLETELY covered the wood
    being done. 
    
    By doing it in small sections, you can tape, bed and remove the tape in
    about a 30 minute timeframe (after scraping and cleaning) so standard
    tape doesn't leave a lot of glue on the wood. I found that NOT cleaning
    your decks prior to doing this actually works better, as the tape still
    sticks well, but comes up slightly easier. 
    
    After this is all done, you can decide if you want to sand or not. Ours
    turned out so well, we didn't sand. The lines are the thickness of the
    tape above the deck. That's not much. If not having a baby bottom
    smooth deck bothers you, then you can sand the deck down very quickly.
    
    Hope this helps. Feel free to call me and discuss if you have questions
    on this. d- 486-6492 or (214)404-6496.
    
    
    Robert

    Now I have a question...
    My stancions are on teak blocks next to my deck. After rains when the
    deck dries, I have a small amount of water that begins seeping out from
    one of these blocks that is a very deep red/brown color. It's also more
    than could possibly be hiding under a 2inch by 3 inch block of teak.
    This just recently started. 
    
    Could I have a problem with the teak stancion block holding water?
    Could it be helping to wick out water that may be getting in a low spot
    of my deck where it pools before drying? Could I be seeing a problem
    that states water is coming out of my deck coring through the screw
    holes in the stancion base???? (my real fear!). 
    
    Any thought on this would sure help. I'd like to fix this and stop it.
    I really want to fix it quick if it's a sign of a possible deck core
    problem. (my deck is approx an inch thick - quarter inch glass, 1/2
    inch core, quarter inch glass).
    
    Thanks for any suggestions.
    Robert

The water might be coming from the core, or it might be coming from inside
the stanchion. If you have water running along a lifeline, it might run inside
the stanchion and collect there, and then leak out through the bottom.

To find out about the core, get a moisture meter and check whether there is
moisture in the core. You'll have to ask around to find somebody with a meter.
(I'm not sure how those gizmos work. Somehow they sense interior moisture from
outside the lamination. Do they measure the dielectric constant of the
material?)

--RS

    I'll see if I can find someone with a moisture meter. The water isn't
    coming from the stancion. My stancions are solid with U braces welded
    to them that have the wires running through the braces.
    
    Any other thoughts??

    re .4
    
    It was Silkaflex 205 Marine polyurethane that I used on the Teak Deck.
    This was what was recommended to me my a marine repair company who did
    quite a bit of deck repair.

I am new at this and may not know enough to know better.

When surveyed, Holiday II proved to have moisture in the deck core.  The check
on the core for rot involved drilling a small hole into the core from inside and
behind some trim.  The core was wet, but no rot.

The surveryor, Giffy Fulls partner, Paul Haley, recommended cutting some
inspection/drying holes in the fall.  I cut through the inner fiberglass with a
1" key hole cutter.  Two holes on each side of the boat.  More could be added as
desired.  The core has "dried out".  I am leaving the holes open as a quick
tale tale on making my decks tight again.  Apparently these holes, or even many
more, have only the smallest effect on the actual strehgth of the hull.  The
inner skin is usually quite thin.  Its purpose is more to keep the core in place
than anything else.

The bottom line is that you may want to try the same thing.  When in doubt, try
to put the inspection holes at the low point of the deck, usually somewhere near
the companionway.  This is also where it is convient to hid behind some
cabinetry etc.  Cut just enough to go through the fiberglass.  You do not really
want to cut a plug into the core.

re .9:

I would be skeptical that your deck core has "dried out". It is likely 
that the core near the holes is now dry, but it could take a very, very 
long time for the entire deck to dry (if ever does) with just two small
vent holes on each side, especially if the core is saturated or
seriously wet. The only way to be sure would be to have the deck 
resurveyed or, better in some senses, drill many more holes to see 
what's what. Probably not what you want to hear, I imagine. Natural air 
drying of lumber with good air circulation takes months.

signed,

ever the skeptical sailor

    Have you considered replacing the Teak Deck completely.  Teak does get
    thiner after years of using chemicals and refinishing.  My friend is
    replacing his teak after 20 years.
    
    Frank
    
    The teak in the U.S. can be so expensive it can justify a trip to
    South America were labor and material is considerably less. For boats
    over 45' this can be the way to go.
    

    Robert, it sounds like, you created a leak somewhere along the new
    Sikaflex. Did you use primer, before you applied Sikaflex ?
    
    Sikaflex is a very sophisticated material for professionals and needs
    carefull attention to small details. Because its  used by 
    professionals, there is no "how to use" documentation send with 
    the cartridge (in Europe).
    I have used a similar product to renew the seal around the bowsprit.
    I received a "how to do" letter (2 full pages) with that product. 
    How to clean the wood and how to apply the primer. First application
    had to dry 24 hours and the second application not longer then 8 hours
    
    Peter    who is lucky to have no teak deck; I have enough leaks already
    
    
    I hate this stuff. It sticks everywhere except where it should !

Back to the quesitons at hand.

How deep should the groove be?  Sorry Alan, I stopped at both B Dalton's and
Boat US and no Wooden Boat magazines.  Help would be appreciated.

Where do I get poly sulfide?  I could not tell by looking at the tubes of
glue at Boat US or a couple of different hardware stores. 

Maybe I will get a chance to dig through my PS's and check on calking, but RTV 
(silicone) is readily available and seems to fill the bill.  Remains flexible,
is a mild adhesive, hence seals tight.  Doesn't expand or contract too much.
Readily available and cheap. Any comments?

What sort of priming do I do in freshly routed grooves?  They should be awfully
clean.  Where do I get said primer?  How much longer will my seal last with
primer?

Can I lay the caulk in the grooves in the late afternoon?  This would let it 
set overnight beofre the next day's sail.  Any special enviormental conditions 
which I should be aware of for caulking?

There is no chance that I will tackle this for at least another week.  I will
then let you know the preliminary results.

I really don't know squat about teak decks, but have a vague clue about 
some glue. I believe that 3M 5200 adheasive is a polysulfide. I haven't 
worked with much and I know one was a poly sulfide. RTV is not good for 
porus surfaces. I assume you want this to stick to the teak.RTV only has 
a good water tight seal for about 3 or 4 seasons, at least in the case 
of my forwad hatch. It repaired, remove, clean and reaseal, very easily but
this deck thing doesn't sound like something you want to do again in 3 years. 

	Polysulfide is distincly stickier than RTV and I can imagine how it 
would be better for wood. 

For what it's worth
	Geoff

    somewhere in this notesfile, there has been a  discussion about
    using silicon sealant, or better said: why not using silicon.
    I tried to locate the note, but it looks like its hidden inside
    a discussion with a different topic. If my memory serves me right,
    it was between Alan and somebody else and did cover the different types 
    of sealants suitable for boats. (Lifecaulk)
    
    Fact is, that the builder of my boat has not used any silicon based
    product on my boat. There must be a reason for it. I do not understand 
    fully why. I use it only, if its not exposed to the sun. For instance 
    the seal between the anchorwindlass and deck. 
    
    Peter
    

Thanks to Alan, I will get to review the article in Wooden Boat about teak deck
repair.  In addition, I found an article by Nick Nicholson in Practical Sailor
about teack deck work.  "Do You Really Want Teak Decks" PS  V19, Num 21,
November 1, 1993.

Here are some preliminary conclusions.  First, Nicholson is not convinced that
he would reteak(?) his deck again, and certainly not the same way.

Based on this article, comments in the notes file etc. here are some dimensions.
A groove of 3/8" allows 1/2" teak to wear down about 50% before the caulking
starts to pop out. ==> Groove depth at least 1/4" more is better.  Lip of teak
should be about 1/4" thick.

	----------------	----------------	-------------
			|	|		|	| ^
			|< 1/8 >|		|	| 1/4" - 3/8"
			|  3/16	|		|	| v
			---- ----		---- ----
			    ||			    || ^
			    ||			    || 1/4"
			    ||			    || v
	-------------------------------------------------------------

Caulks:

	Silkaflex 205 seems to be the front runner.  One part in tubes.

	BoatLIFE LifeCalk commonly used and easily found.  Some complaints in 	
        the notes file.  Some discolorization.

	Detco is the main competitor to BoatLIFE.  More of a professionals 	
        product.  Probably a little longer lifespan.

	3M 5200 a good one part polysulfide.  superior "glueing".  Read hard to
	pull out.  Longer working time for corrections.

	Finally, just to get Alan going: Teakdecking Systems SIS 440 sandable
	one-part silicone.  Nicholson has a friend whose deck is done with this
	and has good results after three years.  They are in Florida, (813)
	377-4100.

Prep work:

	Clean and make groove regular.

	Prime: romove teak oils to encourage a good bond.  Use paint thinner or
	Acetone with a tooth brush for this.

	Tape everything that is to be protected.  Use 3M's green line tape.  It
	is more expensive than masking tape but has three very desirable 	
        qualities. First, the built in crepe allows for bending to fit curves.  
        Second, it comes off with less glue residue.  Third, it masks better.
	The down side is that it is more expensive.

Questions:

	How well are your seams holding up?

	Has anyone tried the Teakdecking Systems silicone?

	Does anyone have a favorite primer?

More to come as I get closer to actually working on the deck.

Doug
dtn 244-7042

gotta go sailing this weekend.

I did the "bad" portions of the port side last year. I thought maybe you
would like some preliminary results.  

I was able to do a fairly bad job in a number of places.  I have not had
much luck in getting the bead to look good.  However, it beats the heck out
of cracking polysulfide.

I made two tools to help rat out the grooves.  Both help alot.  The first
is a cheap screw driver.  I filed the blade down to the width of the crack.
 I use this for most of the ratting.  The end result is a pretty clean
groove of qustionable heritage.  This is where the second tool comes in.  I
bought a cordless Dremel, and a little router stand.  I made a differnt
base for the stand so that I could put guides on it easily.  The guies are 
"6 screws which follow the groove nicely.  Use a Dremel or Sears Moto tool,
not a real router.  A real router has too much torque.  You will never get
a straight line.  I adjusted the depth of the Dremel bit to ~3/8".  Even
this ws dangerously close to through on some of my teak deck.  But heh, it
buys a couple more years before I have to really look at deck replacement.
This produced a nice regulare groove that I then taped.  Tape the sides
carefully.  Make certain that you get a good seal on the edges.  "Black
death" is putting this stuff mildly.  Still Jessica hardly got any on her.
Let the polysulfide set up a little before removing the tape.  When done
just right, the tape just pulls up through the edge of the bead, and yet
the bead is cured enough to retain its shape.  

I did this in the afternoon.  The evening fog seemed to help "film" over
the bead.  In any event, I cold walk on it the next day.

This spring I took the covers off early enough to get snowed on but good. 
The port side showed minial leakage through my "inspection" hole.  Core was
damp to the touch.  The starboard side had a ton of water come through the
inspection hole.  My initial conclusion is that I have closed off at least
90% of the deck leak on the port side.  This is more a staement of deck
condition than the completeness of my work.  It is encouraging enough to do
more.  I also have to reseal the forware hatch.

Doug 
dtn 381-6355