Conference unifix::sailing

I must be a little vague on the price of a GPS 75, since my wife gave me mine as
a birthday gift in February.  However, the price was about $650.00 then.  And
you are correct, prices are falling like a rock.  

Amy got ours at Boat US.  It comes with instructions, a mounting bracket,
carrying case, and wiring harness.  The instructions tell how to hook up the 
harness to a 12 v supply.  I have only run it on the AA battery.  Runs for about
6 hours that way. 

As an option, you can get an external antenna, and I beleive a second warning
speaker for remote mounting.  It is also "differential ready".  I suspect
serious money is involved there.  For my uses it is more than enough.

It also has a NEMA interface.  Though I have never tried that.  In theory that
would allow your autopilot to get route information from the GPS.

200+ way points with up to 10 routes of 20 waypoints each.  Way points can be
entered in alpha numeric.

I have only played with it in my back yard, but I'm impressed.  From what I
understand, it is worth the extra money over the Garmin 50.

    My West Marine catalogue says the Garmin GPS45 is $479.95. The GPS 75
    is $599. I don't know that you get any more from the 75 except NMEA
    output...

    The $600 price is about right in most of the discount catalogs. re:.2
    "I don't know that you get any more from the 75..." What you get is
    ease of operation. The 45 has a big rocker switch, and the 75 has a
    nice keypad. There is less chance for key errors. I have the 75, and
    if the 45 was offered when I bought mine, I still would opt for the 75.
    I heard a rumor that as prices continue to decline for handhelds, they
    would phase out handhelds altogether and focus on hi-graphic, plotter
    type GPS units.

I suspect that the biggest decrease in GPS prices has already occurred. 
Low end GPS prices aren't likely to fall too much further, IMHO. 
According to a dealer I talked to, Magellan (for example) isn't planning 
on any more price reductions for at least several months or more. This 
was one reason I opted to buy a GPS this year instead of waiting. BTW, 
it seems that the basic GPS is fairly prices, the "options" like an 
external antenna seem excessive.

The history of loran prices is instructive. Early units were expensive 
-- high end models were over over $2000. Prices rapidly fell to about 
$500 and then more or less stabilized. 

Alan

There's still $200 difference between GPS prices and Loran prices. There's not
much difference in the actual manufacturing cost. I'd expect to see GPS prices
keep dropping until they're the same price as LORANs are today.

--RS

    maybe not....with the "rumor" of early loran demise still pending, I'd
    expect loran to continue to fall and maybe GPS to climb a bit.  I don't
    believe that loran prices will have a competitive effect on GPS because
    of that issue.  
    
    

The price of GPS units has nothing directly to do with the price of LORAN units.
GPS vendors don't look at LORAN prices when setting their prices. They look at
their competitors' GPS prices.

The price of GPS will drop because it is a competitive business and the
margins are still high. One or more vendors will try to gain market share
by dropping their prices, and the other vendors will follow suit to try to
preserve their market share. This will continue until the margins have reached
the minimum level at which the vendors can operate profitably. Inefficient
vendors will be squeezed out.

The cost of building a GPS is similar to the cost of building a LORAN, since it
is built from similar parts: keypad, display, tuner, antenna, microprocessor,
memory, nav software. So the selling price of LORANs gives a good indication
of what the selling price of GPS's will be after all the margin is squeezed
out.

--RS

    Re: -1.  This ignores the most important factor... the buyer, who does
    look at loran prices relative to GPS prices.  I believe that GPS makers
    know that, and respond to it.  If GPS is $1000+, and loran less than
    $400, then it is clear what will happen.  GPS will have a hard time
    penetrating the volume base.  But look what happened, GPS is right on
    top of loran today.
    
    Both offer the same result, a fix.  You pay for slight advantage in
    accuracy and better coverage.  Since loran offers me =/- 50yd
    repeatability in my area, then it sure does affect the price I'm
    willing to pay for GPS.
    
    Remove loran from the picture, and I would guess that GPS would be
    attractive at twice the price.  Don't you think the suppliers know
    that?  

>    Remove loran from the picture, and I would guess that GPS would be
>    attractive at twice the price.  Don't you think the suppliers know
>    that?  

The suppliers are not permitted to collude in maintaining a high price. They
individually can either set a high price and sell NO units, or they can keep
lowering their prices to try to hang on to as much market share (and profit) as
possible. They've chosen to do the latter.

It works this way in every volume business. As volume and competition increases,
the price asymptotically approaches the actual cost of efficient manufacture
and distribution, plus a meager profit.

In my opinion, GPS prices will come down another $200 over the next two years,
and you won't see any more LORANs on the shelves next year or thereafter.

--RS

Ah, but there is another strategy -- add features while keeping the 
price constant. And some features are even useful (instead of marketing 
gimmicks). I did not buy the cheapest GPS available, partly because I
want one button per digit for entering data. No doubt basic GPS models
will become cheaper, but there is lower limit. They'll never be free. 
I'd guess that maybe $250 is about as low as prices will fall any time 
soon. 

Of course, even a basic GPS has considerably more features than early 
high-end loran units. Progress is nice.

Alan

    How come Sextants are so expensive ?  Much fewer features than
    Loran/GPS, less repeatibility and not even differential ready ?

Because they look cool.  

Lots of gizmos on it.  

Stinkpotters don't use them.

Only a real sailor knows whoat they are, let alone how to really use them.

There is a niche market for things that while new, mimic the "good ol' days"
	aka. the Miata.	This costs money.

It is a wonderful toy to add to the other wonderful toys on your boat, that you
	will never use.

I think that is a good start.  Sextants fit the same catagory as my wood masts,
high maintenance, not as functional as the modern replacement, a thing of 
proactical beauty whose history alone justifies its continuance.

Doug

    Price of GPS is also a function of the volume sold. The rule of thumb
    is - the cost of manufacturing drops by 30% every time the volume is
    doubled.
    
    GPS has a broad market: boats, airplanes, hiking, and **CARS**. If GPS
    goes over big in the auto market, the manufacturing volume will drive
    the price down below what we see for Loran today.

    
    
    
           I looked at the possibilities of buying a GPS in States when I was
           on there a couple of years ago. It was not possible to find a
    	   precise difference in price between the USA and the UK, as prices 
           were then, as they are now, frequently reduced.
           The conclusion I came to was that US prices may be 15% to 20%
           cheaper than UK prices however you will be liable to to import duty
    	   and VAT  plus the possible issues with warranties etc.
            There was little advantage in buying a GPS in the States and
    	    importing it to the UK, I choose to buy my GPS in the UK.
           
    							Steve Wibrew
    							CSC Basingstoke UK
                                                                          

Just recieved latest flyer from BOAT US and they list the new MIRCROLOGICS 
hand held (I think its called TRAVELER or some such) for $429. If my aging
memory serves me, I think I saw this one at the boat show for just under $600 
and it seemed to have a number of features.

This unit has a full keypad with a 'button per number', that Alan considers
a desireable feature. Appears to have a 4 line display. Also stores 1000 way 
points with alpha naming.

Ad indicates it will operate on ships power by placing it in its mounting 
bracket which seems to be included and not an additional option.

Any experience?

Alan, if its not too nosy, what unit did you buy?

Thanks,
Fred 

Who has his boat in the water, but has some rework to do on the wiring for 
the lights. WINDSONG took a lightning hit in October and the repair work was 
done up in NH. The electrical sub-contractor did not know the difference
between the 'running lights on the bow' and the 'bow light'!!! Must work 
on power boats. But the hull looks great and the wiring will wait for a foggy
day since I can get most of the lights on, just not with the approriate breaker.

Still plan to document details of incident someday in a more appropriate note.

re .15:

We bought a Magellan 5000DX with an external antenna. A nifty device, 
mostly. I haven't a clue about what I'll do with 1000 (or whatever) 
waypoints since I've been living with 10 for 12 years, nor do I know 
how I'll keep track of them. Maybe by Light List number. I haven't used 
it enough to comment on how useful/useless various features are.

One of the justifications for buying a GPS is the minimal power 
consumption (0.26 A with display light on) compared to that (> 1.5A) of
our 1982 vintage loran. And, of course, redundancy is nice when 
using electronics for navigation.

Alan

    I just dropped $265 on an Apelco 6400.  For $450 more you can add the
    raytheon antenna and get dual tracking (loran and gps).  Installed ok
    but many tech manual errors.  First one really got to me.  My loran
    selected the wrong chain and established my initial position 400miles
    to the south east.  The book says to enter estimated lat/lon after
    power up.  What it does not tell you is that you cannot do this until
    the unit completes its orignal tune up (15-20min).  Only then can you
    get by the "busy" display and into "setup" to tell it about its error. 
    After entering the reality, it took another 4-5min to get reset and all
    is well.  But I spent 2+hrs turning the damn thing off over and over
    again trying to get the magic hard reset done.
    
    Now I discover that my KVH LRX+ has a software bug and cannot read the
    rounding statement (NMEA0183) from the Apelco, so out and off with it
    to Rhode Island.  It liked my old Furuno ok......but now rounds
    anything over 9.9mi (range) to 0.0.  Decimal is supposed to shift and
    max out to 99mi.
     

    Re sextants: They are expensive to manufacture, therefore expensive to
    buy. Unless you buy a Davis sextant, say, at $100 or so.
    
    Re quality of GPS vs Loran: We have both and the GPS never skipped a
    beat in 11,000nm of sailing last year. The Loran hardly ever worked
    properly in coastal waters for many reasons, not just the complx
    antenna/cabling issues.

    
    I would be careful in relying solely on GPS to establish a navigational
    fix; there have been several instances of commerical vessels running
    aground because the crews were relying solely on GPS without confirming
    their navigational position using other means.  As for Loran, if the
    unit is one of "good" quality, and if it is properly installed - it
    should give very reliable (and repeatable) service.  I have sailed up
    and down the Atlantic coast of the United States for five years using
    Loran without any problems.  (Disclaimer:  Obviously, your milage my
    vary...)
    

	I have to also comment on the reliability of my Loran. I have had no
problems with the actual unit itself, but I did have a corrosion problem. Last 
season I started to have some trouble with it which I initially attributed to 
a low battery. After a fresh charge I still had the same problems, asked the
unit itself and it said it had a weak signal. I decided to open the antenna load
and clean the connection. I found horrible corrosion on the circuit board.
	I cleand the corrosion and replaced a component or two where the leads 
had actually corroded right out of the component. It worked for a couple of 
weeks and failed again. Dead reckoning for the rest of that season.
	I bought a new load this spring. I found Apelco Marine in Nashua NH 
and had the board shipped to me. I really like having the unit back, it's a nice 
convenience. I wouldn't attribute the failure to the fact that this is a Loran 
and not a GPS. I actually attribute it to the seal on the load casing. But 
I can see where this would be less likely to happen on a handheld, with a 
sealed and permanently fixed antenna and the tendencey to bring the unit 
ashore and away from the corrosive atmosphere. 


	NaCl can be nasty
	Geoff

    I had to comment here. My Trimble 200 Loran just died last weekend. I
    was planning on getting a GPS, but not for another year or two, so I
    called Trimble for a repair estimate: (hold on to your seats)

    

    $675 is the "flat" price they charge for Trimble "200" Loran repairs.
    (It's anything but flat :-)

    Looks like i get a GPS sooner than i planned.

    Looking around, I seem to have settled in my mind on a Garmin GPS-65, a
    fixed unit just like the -75 except no battery. West lists it for $639
    (or, $36 *less* than getting a 12+ year old Loran fixed).

    Comments on Garmin? the -65?

    paul    

re .21:

This kind of creative repair pricing is nothing new. Many years ago
Micrologic was charging more for a replacement loran mother board than
the discount price of a brand new identical unit. One of the reasons I
bought a TI loran in 1982 was the then rather low (~$300 as I recall)
flat rate repair price. Of course, getting TI to fix my loran now would
likely be an interesting exercise should it fail. 

Paul,

I have my Garmin 75 at home.  I am in Boxborough, which is not really too far
out of your way home, if you care to come play with it some evening.  In all
honesty I have yet to use it on the boat.

Basic comments sort of mirror Alan's when it comes to the key board, ie. a
judicious number of keys is desirable, verses a fewer number of keys that are
all multi function.

Especially for day sailing the battery pack is a nice touch.  The -75 is good
for about 5-6 hours on one set of batteries.  It uses six AA.  I have bought the
rechargable alkalies from Ray-O-Vac.  One advantage is minimal drainage on the
shelf when compared to NiCad.  The -75 will also accept ships power, and an
external antenna.  


Pricing wise, this is a polite way to say that a company no longer wants to
support the maintenance of your particular piece of electronics.  It is for this
reason among others that I consider all consumer electronics to be of the
disposable nature.  This means that I am not likely to ever buy a top of the
line unit.  Since the company will not stand behind it in a couple of years, why
should I pay top dollar?  Note that this is not the same as with other goods. 
Forinstance my Pentax camera is truely old and still supported by Pentax ( local
camera shops no good, Pentax embarassingly supportive), camping gear, ski boots,
hand tools etc.

Doug Claflin
70 Middle Rd (just off Rt 111, 1 mile east of 495)
Boxborough Ma.
635-0460 hm
264-7042 dtn

re .last:

Yup, sadly most electronics are prohibitively expensive to repair and 
thus are throwaways. But, I think that there is some argument for buying 
top or near top of the line equipment. It is (or should be) better made 
with better weatherproofing, components, etc. The antenna coupler for our
TI loran has sat in wind, sun, spray, and rain for 12 years with nary a
glitch. I had heard that, eg, the weatherproofing of less expensive 
loran antenna couplers leaves much to be desired. The antenna cable 
connectors on our Magellan GPS appear to be high-quality, expensive, and
perhaps/probably watertight. Time will tell. 

Alan

    Doug,

    thanks for the offer, but being crunched for time, i'm going to go to
    the West store and play with the floor models, (then buy the -65).

    I want a keypad entry too, and the -65 seems to fit that bill.

    tnx,
    paul

    re .18:
    
>    I would be careful in relying solely on GPS to establish a navigational
>    fix; there have been several instances of commerical vessels running
>    aground because the crews were relying solely on GPS without confirming
>    their navigational position using other means.  

    I'm under the impression that the GPS system has only been blessed as
    operational for the last few weeks (comments?).   The GPS forcast the
    coasties broadcast used to caution that the system  was not yet fully
    operational, but now they say the system is operational as of 25-May.
    I agree  that it is unwise to rely on only one source for navigation,
    especially in reduced visibility.

    I've been working with my Garmin 75 for around 6  months now and have
    been  quite pleased with it.  It's Estimated Position Error (EPE)  is
    usually  less  than 100 feet, and when tacking, it will have the  new
    course  displayed  before  I  can get the sheets cleated off.  I also
    saved $160 by  making  my  own  coax to externally mount the antenna.

    re. .21:
    
    I thought about the Garmin  65,  but decided it would be nice to have
    the portability of the 75 -  (65's wont run on AA batteries), and the
    cost wasn't that much more.
    
    Oh yeah, got my 75 from West Marine for $579.
    

    Andy Jeschke

On the subject of sextants vs GPS, I do agree that a sextant is a 
nice thing to have on the boat, but not as a toy.  Granted, it is 
esthetically a lovely piece of engineering; granted that it wont 
tell you where you are in thick fog; but, if properly looked after,
it's batteries wont leak or go flat, it's antenna leads wont corrode,
it's external load board wont corrode and it's antenna wont get 
knocked off in a storm. 

Of course, if any of the above did actually happen to your sextant, 
you could always get a fix from your reliable old GPS.  Couldn't you ?

 

The price for a decent sextant is about the same as for a GPS. If you need
backup, get a second handheld GPS. The GPS is far more accurate, far easier to
use, less likely to be damaged in a knockdown, and far less subject to user
error. Its only drawback is that some parts of the U.S. government must be
functioning properly before you can get a fix from it :-)

That said, there's a certain aesthetic appeal to having a backup that doesn't
need electricity or outside assistance in any form.
 
--RS

    I don't know Reinhard, I saw a GPS for sale for a little over a hundred
    bucks.  We are talking about Gray Plastic Sextants aren't we?  :-)
    
    Brian

    I have the cheapest sextant made (the plastic one by Davis).
    It will never give me 1 mile accuracy, but is a darn sight better than
    no sextant, and the price is around $30 (I think).
    
    Bill
    

re .29 and perhaps others:

A sextant does have uses other than finding position (meaning latitude 
and longitude in the sense of a GPS). 

I've been rather dismayed to watch the position given by our GPS while
sitting on our mooring -- the position varies by some 300 feet or so
(which is as good/bad as a loran and makes the anchor watch alarm rather 
useless). If you want to find your position relative to charted or 
uncharted landmarks, horizontal sextant angles will likely give much
more accurate results than will a GPS (should you, say, want to return
to a lost anchor). 

And for its price, a plastic sextant is a very good emergency backup in
the (not unlikely) event of electrical failure (eg, the horror story of
someone sailing into the English Channel after a transAtlantic crossing
with no electrical power at all for lights, navigation equipment, etc). 

A disadvantage to a GPS I hadn't thought about is the difficulty of 
plotting fixes on a chart. The loran lines on the charts having them are 
fairly close together, so that the loran TDs put you in a small area of 
the chart quickly and easily by visual inspection. Plotting, say, 42 deg
46.713 min N and 69 deg 31.613 min W takes longer and is more difficult
and error prone. On the whole, I prefer loran TDs, at least so far.

Alan

>    I have the cheapest sextant made (the plastic one by Davis).
>    It will never give me 1 mile accuracy, but is a darn sight better than
>    no sextant, and the price is around $30 (I think).
    
With plastic sextants, try to keep them in a constant temperature environment
(i.e., belowdecks), and when you bring them out, try to shoot from a shady
spot, get the index error on every sight, and make your sights as quickly as
possible. Plastic has a *much* higher thermal expansion than metal, and that's
the greatest factor in poor sights. Alternatively, let the unit "stabilize" for
several minutes. Another thing is to always turn the vernier CW (or CCW). With
the inherent slop in plastics, there's a minute or two of inaccuracy depending
on which way you turn, so you should always set the IE and sight by turning in
the same direction.

I was able to get 1 mi accuracy with the Davis plastic sextant by following the
above guidelines. On the other hand, I now have an Astra, and I can
consistently get 1/4 mile accuracy (planet sights are sloppier, but that's my
fault).

As Alan notes, sextants can also be used to get bearings, distance off, etc.,
and an electrical/battery failure only means that the night light on the
sextant doesn't work.

I also have a GPS-75, and the display has a resolution of 60 feet. That's 60
feet plus or minus 300 feet, of course! Add in any chart inaccuracies
(considerable in some cases), and you're not nearly as accurate as you might
otherwise think.

I wouldn't be without a GPS on the open ocean, but I wouldn't be without a
sextant either. LORAN is essentially useless in the Bahamas, so two forms of
navigation (sextant and GPS) back up any DR plots. If you want pinpoint
accuracy, then the best thing is the eye.

 - Ken

    I'm holding off on buying a Sextant until they start selling
    differential ready ones.  Can you get them with NMEA 0183 ?
    

    We sailed a looong way last year (Boston to San Francisco) and had a
    GPS aboard. It never missed a beat the entire time. However, the cheap
    $150 Davis plastic sextant usually gave a fix within one mile of the
    GPS readout, so when electrical failures strike (we once went four or
    five days without even running lights.....) a sextant can become vital!

    I would be happy to "scrap" my sextant. The sextant itself is not
    a big burden, but all the books you need. And we have to get every
    year a new nautical almanac. Yes, its possible to scrap the books
    and carry a computer with the ephemer(???) in it. But, if I carry
    a mechanical backup device, it must be fully mechanical. Computers
    tend to break. Nautical Almanac, 2 books for the sun, 1 book for the
    stars and planets and a bunch of forms for easy filling in. We have
    no plotting charts. We can make them ourself if needed. 
    
    We have navigated the last 10 years with our Satnav. And we will use it
    as long as the system is in operation and use the GPS as a backup.
    The Satnav has a much better designed human interface and is less
    prone to operator error. I do not trust my GPS (Garmin 50). To many
    keystrokes needed.
    
    Peter 

> A disadvantage to a GPS I hadn't thought about is the difficulty of 
> plotting fixes on a chart. The loran lines on the charts having them are 
> fairly close together, so that the loran TDs put you in a small area of 
> the chart quickly and easily by visual inspection. Plotting, say, 42 deg
> 46.713 min N and 69 deg 31.613 min W takes longer and is more difficult
> and error prone. On the whole, I prefer loran TDs, at least so far.

I have used a device called a Yeoman Plotter, which is a cheaper alternative to
electronic charts. You clip your chart onto the mat of the plotter, and move a
puck around on top. It operates in three main modes. The first simply gives the
long. and lat of any point on the chart, the second illuminates little arrows on
the puck , to show you which way to move the puck to get to your current
position, which it obtains from a NMEA interface to your GPS/Decca/Loran, and
the third gives distance and bearing from one point to another. If your GPS
accepts uploading of waypoints, the first mode will allow you to do this. The
puck has a little hole in the middle that you can stick your pencil through.

Chris

Hi 

Here in New Zealand I know of no boats that have a Loran set on-board, I dont
know if Loran works in this part of the world, maybe someone can answer this 
question. 

Another dumb question: What is LORAN?

Satnav and GPS are the commonly used forms of electronic nav aids, both of
these have windows of unavailabity at these latitudes but it is improving. It
seems that the south pacific is not high on anyones list of coverage.


Cheers
revel.

    You are right, Loran (LOng RAnge Navigation) is pretty well northern
    hemisphere phenomenon.  There are some southern chains I believe but
    they are to the north of you, in areas where the US Navy rules the
    waves.
    
    Loran is basically a radio triangulations method, a Master and several
    slaves send out radio signals that the receiving unit which determine
    the difference in timing and then calculate the position bassed on
    that.  They are fairly accurate and repeatable although susceptible to
    propagation errors over land. 

re .37:

Yes, I've seen this device. From my viewpoint, it has three major 
disadvantages:

  1. Cost -- there are many other things I'd rather spend my (limited)
     funds on.

  2. It is electronic, and hence prone to failure. A wave sneaking down
     our companionway will fall on the chart table (which is one reason 
     we bought a waterproof GPS). Electronics also use electricity, and
     our battery capacity isn't overly ample as it is.

  3. Size -- where would I put the bloody thing? My smallish chart table 
     is already crowded, and it is also used for other important activities, 
     like cooking and washing dishes. 

Still, a neat device. Probably sell lots of 'em. 

Alan  

    Hi all,
    
    Charles Grossie is my name - I am an MCS Manager in the Belfast office
    in Northern Ireland. 
    
    I have read with interest the replies regarding GPS vs. LORAN and the
    quality of the different vendor's products.
    
    I currently require a replacement for my broken Philips DECCA Mk3
    Navigator. In the U.K. there is quite a selection of GPS products, but
    as usual, there are so many to choose from; so many features - who
    knows which is the best value for money.
    
    I would prefer to stick with Philips if possible and fancy either the
    Mk8 or Mk9 (680 and 740 Pounds Sterling respectively). GARMIN,
    MAGELLAN, LOWRANCE and TRIMBLE are all sold here, but unfortunately, I
    haven't as yet received any sales literature on them.
    
    Ironically, I have a brother-in-law in San Diego until next Tuesday. If
    possible, I would like to ask him to bring me a GPS home with him, but
    unfortunately, I am unfamilair with the complete U.S. product range and
    cost.
    
    I want a fixed GPS, so would opt for say a GARMIN 65 or a MAGELLAN 5000DX
    with external antenna. The GARMIN 65 costs 410 Pounds - the MAGELLAN
    with Antenna costs 1000 Pounds! I have looked at the LOWRANCE range
    too, but again are approximately 1000 Pounds.
    
    This is where I am expecting miracles!
    
    1. Can anyone recommend a good quality no nonsense GPS which is well
    priced. It must be a fixed set with a marine quality antenna. My budget
    is limited to a maximum of $1000.00.
    
    2. Are there any chain stores or recommended dealers in San Diego
    (Califronia) that I could contact? 
    
    I really would appreciate your help.
    
    For you interest, I live in Portrush, County Antrim in Northern Ireland
    approximately 5 miles from the famous Giants Causeway. I sail a
    RIVAL34.
    
    I look forward to your replies.
    
    Best regards,
    
    Charles Grossie.

re .42:

The discount price of a Magellan 5000DX with external antenna is less 
than $1100 US. I purchased mine from West Marine (the San Diego store is 
located at 1214 Rosecrans Street, phone 619-224-8222). (Garmin GPS units 
are less expensive.)


The 5000DX is actually a portable handheld -- the 5200 model is the
fixed mount version but costs rather more. The U-bracket mount for the
5000DX is fairly convenient (though I had to file a notch in the bracket
to provide clearance for the external antenna cable) and effectively
makes it a fixed mounting. 

With only limited use so far, I'm happy with our 5000DX. Even with the
24 button keypad, data entry and navigating is less convenient than I
like. I would suspect that fewer buttons would be even less nice. 

The waterproofness of the Magellan is one feature I like, especially 
since our chart table and electronics would be drowned by a wave down 
the companionway.

Sonas,

Alan 

    West Marine, the largest US marine discount catalogue company, sells an
    excellent Magellan GPS for less than $400, that's about 259 pounds
    sterling.
    
    A friend has one and it seems quite creditable. Most good handhelp GPS
    units now are around $500 each. The UK price is, quite simply, a
    rip-off.

    Thanks for the info Alan. I successfully dealt with West Marine in San
    Diego and purchased a Magellan 5200DX for $999.00 plus Tax @8%. They
    delivered it to my brother-in-law's hotel free of charge too!
    
    Fortunately, I received it undamaged at the week-end and am now looking
    forward to installing it.
    
    This same unit as advertised in the U.K. caosts approximately 1100.00
    Pounds Sterling. 
    
    Once again, thanks for your input and everyone else's who replied.
    
    Regards,
    
    Charlie.
    

Just purchased a Garmin 45 for US$299 from West Marine. Most of the
catalogs still list it for US$499. The prices are falling rapidly.

    mark

    Newport boat show prices where $265-270  plus tax.  
    
    KC
    

It sure seems that the Garmin 45 has become the standard of the hand helds.

Even back last winter at the Bayside Expo Show here in Boston some of the 
major outlets were quoting @$269 (at the show) or like Boat US, $299, but 
they gave you a coupon good for $30 off on a $300 purchase until the end 
of the month.

FD

Just got a West Marine sales blurb in the mail last night.

Lists a Magellan hand held for $199. Not many specs included, but 
I would like to stop by and check it out.

Meant to bring the ad in with me today, but! So I do not
have the model number.

FD

    I saw one at Bliss.  The major diff between the $199 magellan and the
    garmen 45.  Is the magellen has a built in patch ant.  No possibility of a
    remote.  Will work only on batteries, and does not have any data output
    or input.  Also track only 5 sattelites.  The garman tracks 8.  the
    user interface is about the same.  
    
    KC
    

    Tried the Garmin 45 in the deep woods of Michigan's UP.  Not so hot. I
    could get a fix in an open space, but as soon as I was under the canopy
    it started beeping about poor GPS coverage and would lose it's way.
    
    
    

re .51:

Sounds normal. Our Magellan 5000 behaves the same way. Apparently the GPS 
signals are readily absorbed by most anything. As I recall, Practical
Sailor compared GPS receiver sensitivities by putting wet paper towels 
over the antenna. Not many sheets were required.

    I got my west marine christmas catalog yesterday.
    I am interested in a handheld. The prices they were quoting were:
    
       they had the Garmin 45 @ $299
       A new maggellan 2000   @ $199
       A new maggellan 3000   @ $245
             Meridian xl      @ $299
    
    
       Anyone have any info on the new 2000 & 3000?
    
    I believe they run on 4 batteries, take 200 waypoints and use 8
    satillites to track. Sounds like the Garmin at a lower price.
    

             

    As luck would have it I just saw a article that tested the 2000.  Not a
    Practical sailor style more of I used it and here how I liked it. It is
    not intended for marine use but for hikers.  It stores 200 landmarks
    but you can only store one route with 29 landmarks at time.  It can be 
    changed to use nautical miles, they got well over 10 hours on the 
    batteries.  The write up said that there is no provision for a remote 
    antenna.  At the end the claim was it was rugged enough and usable but
    that the Meridan was a better choice for boating use.


    Forrest

    From West catalog:
    
    Name		price	way		routes	life	Remarks
    				points	legs		(hrs)   
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Garmin 45  		$299	250		20	15-20	waterproof	
    
    Garmin 75		$499	250		10		
    								waterresist
    								w/cable &mount
    
    Magellan 2000	$199	100	29	1	17	no NEMAIntrfc	
    								water resist
    
    Magellan 3000	$249	200	20	5	17	waterproof
    								w/bracket
    
    Magelln Meridian xl $299	200	15	5		
    								diff ready
    
    Magellan Nav dlx-10 $599	1000	20	20	10	Waterproof
    								floats
      								rugged
    								comes w/cable
    								&mount
    
    From M&E catalog:
    Prices for above +- $10
    
    Micrologic Sportsmn $399	1000			2.5	Waterproof
    								includes Mount
    
    Micrologic SprSport $199	250		9		not waterresist
    								No NEMA
    								inclu case
    
    
    And for you Loran lovers
    
    Micrologic loran	$99	250	20	9	18	No NEMA
    handheld							Not watr resist