| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
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| 2115.1 | wind in the rigging | UNIFIX::BERENS | Alan Berens | Fri Mar 04 1994 14:24 | 45 |
| Copied by the moderator.
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Note 1102.42 Battery help 42 of 46
3D::SEARS "Paul Sears, ML05-2, 223-0559, Pole 10a" 35 lines 3-MAR-1994 09:22
-< Wind in the rigging >-
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I must pipe in here to defend wind generators as a viable source of
battery food.
Our Hamiltom Ferris WG produces from 70-120 amp-hours per day when we
are at anchor at Cuttyhunk in typical Buzzards' Bay conditions.
Sometimes less, sometimes more. Its noise level is comperable to wind
in the rigging and has aout the same anoyance level as clanking
halyards. Even though it was right over our bunk on our 26' Ariel, i
was always able to sleep. Your mileage may differ. I much prefer it to
the throb of an engine, and the thought of making ice cubes from wind
is much more appealing to me than from diesel fuel. It can;t be left
alone w/o both a regulator and governor. I'd like to try leaving the
fridge on in place of a regulator, but if there were no wind for a
while, it would kill the battery.
In the tradewinds a wind generator like ours (or a Windbugger, etc)
plus a 40+ watt panel would provide more than enough juice without ever
running the motor. Our's peaks out at 15 amps in about 20kts of wind.
Even at 15kts it produces about 8a. which is about 120 a-h/day. Add in
15 a-h from the panel and you certainly have enough power for a fridge
and other misc stuff.
A 20 watt solar panel will on the average product 7 a-h/day. That's
about 35 a-h between weekend uses. If you didn;t fully charge the
battery last Sunday (and you probably didn't), a solar panel will go a
long way towards floating a battery that was only brought back to
70-80% full charge. For the ~$250 cost i think it's a good investment,
and your batteries will like you for it.
Wind and sub do not replace the need for a high output alternator and
matching regulator, but they are a quite valuable addition; and in my
opinion increase the serenity coeficient by decreasing motoring, and by
almost always having at least something going into the batteries.
paul
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| 2115.2 | wind generator design | UNIFIX::BERENS | Alan Berens | Fri Mar 04 1994 14:25 | 49 |
| Copied by the moderator.
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Note 1102.44 Battery help 44 of 46
SCHOOL::HOWARTH 39 lines 4-MAR-1994 12:52
-< My wind generator design- >-
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Re: .33
The wind generator that I have designed is capable of over 15
amperes. It is an alternator with a state of the art neodymium-
iron-boron permanent magnet field. The unit is completely sealed
to the weather and consists of stainless steel and aluminum for
construction. Both ends of the rotating field are supported by
sealed ball bearings. There are no slip rings to contend with
except for the rings that are part of the mount design so that
the unit can point to the wind without winding the power
transmission line. The propeller is most likely going to be made
from ash rather than spruce as is commonly found in other units.
I have built several props to date and they have a diameter of 5
feet. Note that an earlier reply by Alan claimed that wind
generators are noisy; I don't know what machines he was
listening to but there is one h--- of a difference between a wind
generator and a gasoline powered generator that I was using up to
this year.
I just ran a test on the unit the other night. I rotated the
field on my lathe to 560 RPM and it outputted slightly over 9
amperes at 14.5 volts or about 130 watts. There was too much slip
in the flat belt used by my South Bend lathe to turn it over at
higher RPM's but I will do this later on my drill press.
There are many advantages to an alternator over a generator for
wind mills. A generator has a commutator that is noisy (
electrical noise) that can affect AM radios and possibly, lorans.
A generator also has high RPM problems; my design will have the
RPM's limited by the propeller design.
If you don't have refrigeration problems, maybe you should
consider a solar charger. In any case, my unit will be mounted on
the back of my boat Mary Ellen, and it can be seen this season in
places like Cutty Hunk, Hadley's Harbor, Vineyard Haven and
Nantucket.
Joe
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| 2115.3 | diodes in line? | UNIFIX::BERENS | Alan Berens | Fri Mar 04 1994 14:26 | 18 |
| Copied by the moderator.
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Note 1102.45 Battery help 45 of 46
DPDMAI::CLEVELAND "Grounded on The Rock" 8 lines 4-MAR-1994 13:33
-< diodes in line? >-
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If you'd like to share schematics or anything else, I'd love to
duplicate your design to see how it would work on my boat.
Do you need to worry much about those windless days that the alternator
just sits there, happily chewing up 12 volts in it's windings or do you
diode the the device in some way?
Robert
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| 2115.4 | Design is interesting, pass it around? | UNIFIX::BERENS | Alan Berens | Fri Mar 04 1994 14:28 | 32 |
| Copied by the moderator.
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Note 1102.46 Battery help 46 of 46
CFSCTC::CLAFLIN 22 lines 4-MAR-1994 14:13
-< Design is interesting, pass it around? >-
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Though my newly aquired boat does not have a large power demand, I do intend
to add a solar panel to act as a trickle charge during the week.
I too am interested in the wind generator design -.2. I think a similar design
including how to make the prop was in a CRUISING WORLD ARTICLE about a year
ago. COASTAL CRUISING may have been the location of the do it your self unit.
In any event I remeber is using a car alternator. As per the rest of this
discussion, not high enough rating, not resistant to enviorment (NaCL), not
high enough voltage etc, BUT the price would be hard to beat.
Other things that I have wondered about, what if you made a prop to turn slower,
and then geared into the alternater/generater. Would this lower the wind noise?
What about to smaller props each driving their own alternater? CMOS
electronics draw far less than typical bettery leakage. Smaller props = less
translational velocity at the blade tips = less noise.
Since I am most likely to try to use my engine to motor out and back into harbor
and then live with whatever wind exists, some form of secondary charging eg
solar is going to be need.
Doug
dtn 244 -7042
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| 2115.5 | Its not so simple-- | SCHOOL::HOWARTH | | Fri Mar 04 1994 14:33 | 26 |
| Re: .45
I don't think its as easy as sharing a schematic. I have paid for
a casting design plus castings, specially designed magnets,
stationary armature wound to my specifications, and special
rotating pole pieces.
The task is further complicated by extensive machining of 304
stainless steel rod and tube stock, cold rolled steel and
aluminum. The rotating slip rings consist of machined copper
rings fitted into machined delrin plastic along with machined
copper brushes and stainless steel springs. This is a custom
designed, a high performance, high reliability machine that I
intend to sell. So far, I have spent 1.5 years on it and $$$$$.
Mr. Moderator-- I am not using this note file for advertising! I
am just trying to answer questions.
There is a company in Canada that is selling plans to build an
alternator from a GM auto alternator for $25. The piece parts to
build that design is around $500-600. They claim to get about 11
amperes maximum from their machine. Note that their machine uses
current from the boat battery to energize the magnetic field. My
design takes absolutely nothing from the battery.
Joe
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| 2115.6 | | GLDOA::ROGERS | I'm the NRA | Fri Mar 04 1994 14:45 | 6 |
| sort of like a one-off piece of art that is fun for the artist to
conceive of and create but would cost, oh say well over $20,000 in NRE
to duplicate.
Am I close?
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| 2115.7 | how about this ? | OTOOA::MOWBRAY | This isn't a job its an Adventure | Fri Mar 04 1994 14:49 | 9 |
| Joe it sounds like you've built a jim dandy wind device. You've
obviously thought a lot about it so perhaps you could answer this
question for me ... I see a lot of anemometers (sp) that have 3 half
spheres on a vertically mounted axis. I wondered if such an
arrangement, perhaps using similar spheres or perhaps using vertical
vanes would work. This would simplify the design in that the unit
would not have to turn to face the wind and also the unit would have
possibly higher/safer propellors that would be out of the way Vs. the
5' hunk of ash/spruce .... why would this design not work ?
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| 2115.8 | more answers- | SCHOOL::HOWARTH | | Fri Mar 04 1994 16:59 | 34 |
| Re: .6
NRE-- I'm afraid to add all of the numbers. It just seems like
there is always something else to buy. Now I'm looking for a
milling machine.
Re: .7
The "cup" design you described will work but---. I don't have all
of the equations with me and perhaps nobody is interested. Wind
energy is proportional to the velocity cubed times the swept area
times a correction factor. That means the "swept area" must
be large. Sometime ago, people designed systems with barrels cut
in halve, mounted on a pole. They did work. Again, everything
comes down to efficiencies. Beyond that, things get complicated.
The multi blade props seen on machines made by AmpereAir and
others advertise that the machines can operate in high winds.
Although that claim is somewhat flawed as witnessed by Northern
Light in Antarctica (Sail Jan 94), the point is that the more
blades facing the wind, the slower the wind is passing through
the blades. Note that the energy equation deals with wind cubed!
From all of the curves that I've seen, the two bladed prop offers
the greatest efficiency.
Another thing about props. They are designed for either high
torque or high speed. The typical 2 bladed prop seen on machines
such as 4 Winds has a gain of about 10. That means the tip speed
of the blade is 10 times faster than the wind speed. Tip speed is
important because both generators and alternators have outputs
that are a direct function of RPM.
Joe
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| 2115.9 | LVM 3 | HAEXLI::PMAIER | | Mon Mar 07 1994 06:06 | 36 |
| I have since 4 years a LVM 3. I rate it as almost useless.
Having a small boat (30 feet) AND a mizzen mast, I had to install
a small generator. At that time, I could choose between the LVM and
the Ampair, both from the UK. The Ampair was to pricy and to heavy
to be mounted permanently on the mizzenmast. The boom from the
mizzen prohibits to have any windmill at the stern.
The LVM does not perform at all. The spec from LVM in the last Cruising
World is wrong. The LVM does not produce 1 Amps at 10 kn of wind. Its in
the range of 300mA at the best. Waveaction almost stop the propeller.
The LVM 3 goes seldom above 1-2 Amps, even in the Carribean.
But its quiet. In the Tobago Keys with regular winds going up
to 35 kn, there was a small vibration felt from the mizzenmast,
otherwise nothing.
I have heard the same about the Ampair. Additionaly, the Ampair can be used
to tow a propeller. If the boatspeed is going near the 5 kn mark, the
output is 0 amps; if the boatspeed is 6 kn and above, 6 and more
amps is the rule. (I got this information from a participant at the
ARC) My boat is seldom doing 6 kn ...
People having a "Windbugger", have been very enthusiastic about this
machine. But as Alan Berens has pointed out, very noisy. People told
me, that they produce 10+ Amps. But the noise and the vibration is
almost unbearable. Most boats in Rodney Bay (average windspeed 15 kn)
tied down there Windbugger propeller all day to keep the boat quiet.
This machines are so large and powerfull, look at the mechanical
problems in installing them !
From my own experience, windmills are not worth the trouble. The only
12 power I need is for refrigeration. Before evening sets in, I start
the engine, clean the boat, wait 1/2 hour for the shower water getting
hot, then I have my shower, then my wife and guests, leave the engine
running for another 1/2 hour. Thats it; batteries are ready for another
full day refrigeration.
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| 2115.10 | Try some salvaged tape drives for motors | 3D::SEARS | Paul Sears, ML05-2, 223-0559, Pole 10a | Mon Mar 07 1994 12:23 | 9 |
| I read recently that a good source of generating devices for wind
generators is large magtape drive motors. I don't know if they were
refering to the captsan motor or the takeup motor. In any event,
someone reading this file should be able to comment on this.
What type of motors are involved in the big old tape devices (TU45,
TU78, etc). Are there scrap drives around that can be salvaged?
paul
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| 2115.11 | | DEMOAX::GINGER | Ron Ginger | Wed Mar 09 1994 18:45 | 4 |
| Old tape drive reel motors were just big permanent magnet DC motors.
Ive been watching for some for tool use, because spped control is easy.
They are rather hard to find these days. They should make fine
generators as well.
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| 2115.12 | Delft Windmill? | MILKWY::WAGNER | Scott | Thu Mar 10 1994 11:17 | 17 |
|
... until the saltwater hits `em. The motor is probably the
toughest part of this problem, right? As far as the anemometer model,
not enough efficiency. The idea there is wind direction insensitivity.
There's a windmill near Hull Gut, REAL big, hitech-looking blades, with
endplate-wings a'la Australia II's keel, except the leading/trailing
edges are reversed. Anyway, execpt for gear noise and the WHIIFF noise
of the blades, the thing's pretty darn quiet. Also, anybody seen the
wind generators down on the Vineyard? I think there's some sort of
braintank down there, right?
Neat stuff, tho my schedule doesn't usually permit months offshore,
so I stick with the block-of-ice-for-$5 technology... (voice of
jealousy!)
Scott
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| 2115.13 | Fourwinds II wind noise? | DRMWAY::KENWORTHY | Jim | Tue Apr 12 1994 15:04 | 12 |
| Does anyone have any experience with the Fourwinds II? I am most
concerned about the wind noise when the large two bladed prop is
turning. I have heard from folks that it is very noisy but I have not
actually been next to one.
My neighbor across the dock has the Fourwinds III and it is very quit.
You can almost stick you head into the turning prop before you can hear
it.
regards
jimk
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| 2115.14 | Almost a guarrentee not to! | USHS01::DEMAREST | | Tue Apr 12 1994 15:59 | 15 |
| I have recently discussed this with "Bill" at EVERFAIR. He states
that noise has been a problem only in a very few circumstances and that
if it is a real problem, they will replace the blades. Most of the
problems seen have been caused by incorrect installation by owner! He
also said that they were experimenting with new blade tips. Perhaps
this is where the Fourwinds "III" came from. I will be ordering the
latest in about one month - you can help with the install if you
want!!! I have noticed that there are some folks in Waterford and
Watergate (local Houston area marinas for you folks not in Houston)
that like to think that the Fourwinds is the noisiest wind generator.
SSCA folks have not found that to be true. I have also bought stuff
from "Bill"and find him very knowledgeable and honest. I'd give him a
call and ask him! (305-968-7358)
Lee
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| 2115.15 | | SX4GTO::WANNOOR | | Wed Apr 13 1994 01:47 | 11 |
| We've had a Fourwinds II since leaving Boston. Now we are in San
Francisco, and the wind generator is running still in our regular 15kt
winds in the marina. The only noise we can hear above deck is the
"hissing" of the blades spinning. Below, it can't be heard at all
except when the wind is really kicking up, say 20-25kt, when there is
some slight vibration that comes down the mizzen mast. We have no
rubber absorption, and the unit is permanently fixed to the mizzen.
It productes huge amp/hours per day, up to about 350 in tradewinds
conditions. The new Fourwinds III is a smaller, lower power, cheaper
version designed I presume to get into the Rutland end of the market.
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| 2115.16 | check you numbers???? | MR3MI1::BORZUMATO | | Wed Apr 13 1994 09:21 | 5 |
| Are you sure that its producing 350 amp per day.
Sounds awfully high to me....
JIm
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| 2115.17 | | SX4GTO::WANNOOR | | Sat Apr 16 1994 16:55 | 2 |
| Maximum 15 amps for 24 hours =360 amp hours/day. That's in a fairly
strong, consistent trade wind.
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| 2115.18 | ?????? | MR3MI1::BORZUMATO | | Tue Apr 19 1994 09:47 | 12 |
| I'm looking in the 93 defenders catalog, at the Ampair and
Fourwinds adds.
The Ampair will generate 7.5 amps at approx 48 knots.
The Fourwinds will generate 16 amps at 45+ knots.
Kinda breezy ain't it.
Jim
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| 2115.19 | more data | USHS01::DEMAREST | | Tue Apr 19 1994 11:30 | 19 |
| The following info is taken from the EVERFAIR catalogue:
FWII AMPAIR 100
wind output output
10 5.6 1.2
15 10.7 1.3
20 16 4.1
The max effective output for the FWII is 15-18 as the "airbrake"
deploys at 22 kts. to limit the output. 2 out of 3 of the FWII
survived Andrew! The non survivor lost a blade. This catalogue can
be had from: EVERFAIR ENTERPRISES,INC
2520 N. W. 16th Lane, #5
Pompano Beach, Fl. 33064
305 - 968-7358
Defender's new catalogue is supposed to be out now, although I have not
seen it yet.
Hope this helps. I plan to buy the FWII in June!
Lee
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| 2115.20 | seems good | MR3MI1::BORZUMATO | | Tue Apr 19 1994 13:54 | 9 |
| With the fwii, seems they will give generators a real run.
Pretty impressive, if you can accomodate one of these, it seems
worthwhile. And they are quiet comparitively.
Having a power boat presents a different group of issues.
JIm
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| 2115.21 | build your own ? | OTOOA::MOWBRAY | This isn't a job its an Adventure | Mon Jun 13 1994 13:43 | 33 |
| I have obtained a copy of the plans Joe referred to previously for the
conversion of a GM alternator to a marine wind generator. Because of
copyright and length reasons, I will not put all of the instructions
here, however if people are interested I can put address etc.
The process is to basically pick up a used GM alternator, re-wind it
with smaller (more turns) wire, replace the regulator and then make a
frame (and "Lolly" stick - to take off the power) they claim that the
unit can be made for under $200.00 Cdn ($ 17.50 US!@) and that it
starts to generate at 7.5 kts. The unit does take power during
stand-by (no wind) at 5 milliamps ... which they claim means that if
you get 2000 hours without wind will flatten the battery. For us we
would not get 2000 minutes without wind!.
It seems fairly straight forward, I would like to get the alternator in
order to understand all of the instructions but it would not be too
tough. The thing I don't like though is the 5' dia 2-blade prop. My
thinking goes .... guest on board max height 6'3" 5' dia - 2.5' radius
- minimum safe mount height = 9 - 10 feet. That would basically
convert my 32' Rival to a ketch. I still can't help but wonder if the
multiple bladed options could save me a foot or 2 in height.
I realize that from the science presented here that long 2 blades are
most efficient, however I don't need 100% efficiency, I get a ton of
wind all of the time and only really need the generator to keep my
batteries filled plus power for long cruises.
With the 5 blade designs, it seems that the radius is kept smaller and
I guess from the diagrams/photos in catalogs etc. that these are flat
blades angled to the wind Vs. carefully formed 2 blade screw. ?
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| 2115.22 | Please post info | DPDMAI::CLEVELAND | Grounded on The Rock | Mon Jun 13 1994 14:25 | 6 |
| I'd love to get a copy of this. I tried to send you a note via VMS mail
but cannot get it to go through. Would you post the address where we
can get this or send it via Vax mail: DPDMAI::Cleveland or Robert
Cleveland @DLO?
Thanks,
Robert
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| 2115.23 | Here's the scoop snoop | OTOOA::MOWBRAY | This isn't a job its an Adventure | Thu Jun 16 1994 09:51 | 32 |
| Because the plans are copyright and because some guy has obviously
spent time and money in putting the plans together, I don't feel
comfortable in copying or reproducing the plans, he only charges $ 25
cdn for the plans so they are not too steep.
He is - Electrovent
Bernard Belisle
633 Routhier
Ste-Foy
Quebec, Canada
G1X 3J8
(418) 654 1759 - Phone and Fax
The specs he gives are:
Voltage 12 VDC
Amperage Up to 12 Amp (depending on Alternator)
Prop size 5 feet
Weight 5 Pounds
Operating Range 7 to 40 MPH
Charging Voltage 14.4
Regulating Voltage 13.5
The plans are about 10 pages of "words" (8.5 by 11.5) and 6 pages of
drawings.
After studying the plans, my only two questions are 2-bladed vs. say
smaller dia 5 blade and what issues does one have (and how to address
them) in the higher wind ranges. 40 MPH is not particularly high for
around here.
Graham
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| 2115.24 | thanks! | DPDMAI::CLEVELAND | Grounded on The Rock | Thu Jun 16 1994 10:42 | 3 |
| Thanks!
The contact name and cost was exactly what I was looking for!
Thanks for posting...
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| 2115.25 | | DEMOAX::GINGER | Ron Ginger | Thu Jun 16 1994 16:54 | 6 |
| and thanks for doing the ethical thing and not copying the plans.
There has been a series of letters in MESSING ABOUT IN BOATS about this
topic, and the related one of selling 'used' plans. Most people dont
take this seriously enough.
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| 2115.26 | What prop though ? | OTOOA::MOWBRAY | This isn't a job its an Adventure | Fri Jun 17 1994 11:17 | 48 |
| Its a topic that is near and dear to all of us that work for Digital,
I'd hate to compete with a customer who says "I just bought RDB from
DEC and now I can sell it to others ......"
I am at a loss though as to how to generate discussion/info on the prop
options though. We have a blustery day here and I can easily imagine
an inefficient but smaller/safer prop just pumping away. In fact on a
day like to today, I bet a vertically mounted arrangement would work
just fine.
Does anyone know if there is a compelling reason not to build/try a
vertically mounted prop ? I know that the power from the prop is quite
a bit less but if the objective is to top up the batteries and keep
them topped up while on a (maximum) 2 week cruise then squeezing the
last little piece of efficiency is not too important.
It's an issue today as we are off this evening for the weekend and I
put a charger on overnight to get the batteries all the way up as my
Loran is pretty rude if the voltage is at all low.
By the way this is the "rally" that we discussed in this conference
last winter as I was organizing it. It ended up looking like:
Depart 1900 Fri for Warwick Hr. Trinity Bay nfld. (approx 65 nm)
Skippers estimate their eta at Baccalieu Is (40nm) and lose a point for
every 15 mins they miss by.
From Baccalieu, Skippers do the same ETA to Warwick Hr. and lose a
point for every 15 mins. In both cases you also lose a point for evey
boat that passes you in the hour preceeding the eta.
First in to W.
It should be an overnight about 14 hours to the destination with only
one reported berg in the dark area.
In warwick Hr. there is a Homemade Wine tasting (no points + or -) then
a hamburger BBQ and a dessert competition. Finally if the BBQ and
winetasting go well there will be a concert with every boat
participating or losing points.
Depart for home Sunday morning ... 6:30 a.m.
There are 6 - 7 boats going and it will be fun.
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| 2115.27 | brakes available | UNIFIX::BERENS | Alan Berens | Fri Jun 17 1994 13:59 | 7 |
| The Fairwinds wind generator catalog lists an air brake that is
supposedly adaptable to other wind generators. The brake begins
functioning at about 40 knots and is claimed to be effective even in
hurricane strength winds. I don't recall the price, but it might be
useful on an owner-built generator.
Alan
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| 2115.28 | rotor, not propellor | DEMOAX::GINGER | Ron Ginger | Mon Jun 20 1994 14:23 | 15 |
| Back in the 'energy crisis' days, there was lots of discussion on
wind generators. A neighbor had one on his roof that looked like a
barrell cut in half, along the axis. The two halves were then spread
apart such that from the top it looked like the letter S. This seemed
to be the favoured, simple, balde.
It should work fine in the vertical direction, and be easier to guard
than a propellor. Should be able to make one from a large section
plastic pipe, like sewer pipe. Get area by making it longer, not larger
diameter. Id bet a 12" dia by 2 or 3 feel long would fit well along the
front edge of a mast. Easy to support with a couple simple brackets and
bearings.
Then maybe the wind generator could become a fletnor rotor and power
the boat to :-)
|