Conference unifix::sailing

Uh, perhaps you could better define what you mean by a "realistic" 
navigation station. I have the impression that you are really asking 
"what additional electronics should I acquire?"

My answer is: none. My preference is clearly toward basic, even minimal 
electronics. We've sailed our boat perhaps 15000 miles now to Maine, 
Nova Scotia, and Bermuda with magnetic compass, speed/log, depthsounder,
windspeed (nice but we managed without it for years), and loran. And, of
course, handbearing compass, parallel rulers, charts, and so on. Our 1982 
Autohelm self-steering works quite nicely without talking to any other
electronics. 

Now that GPS prices are becoming reasonable, we may get a GPS as a backup 
to the loran (or keep the loran as a backup to the GPS). 

For the sailing we mostly do (which is like yours) I really see no need 
or justification for additional electronics (most especially given their
cost). My feeling is that you would be better advised to spend the money 
on ground tackle, maybe a liferaft, self-steering, and so on. 

Assuming your boat has the standard-issue battery and battery-charging 
systems, I'd suggest upgrading to a more sophisticated system, eg, Ample 
Power (see the many notes about this). We found it money well-spent.

Alan

    
You are right - by "realistic" navigation station I mean a basic functional 
navigation environment, not focusing on "electronic gagets and clever things".

What I am asking is "what additional electronics should I acquire?" 

					Thanks,
					John

As primarily a day sailer and weekender, I would not presume to be qualified 
to advise you, but I'd thought I would pass along something a friend said
this summer that changed the way I look at interfaced electronics.

My friend (virtually limitless budget) sails a custon designed and built
Little Harbor 58/60. He and Ted Hood started with Ted Hood's LH58, changed
the transom and added an after cockpit. Bill also moved several interior 
bulkheads and changed the interior layout.

As far as electronics,the boat has 2 Lorans, GPS, real impressive electronic 
chart ploter, an autopilot, radar, 2 vhf, single sideband, an AM-FM Cassett 
radio in each stateroom, AFM-FM, Cassett and CD in the main salon, and a 
cellular phone.

When I querried him on his auto pilot, and whether it was interfaced, he said
that even though is was one of the most expensive available with some kind of 
learing ability to remember the current conditions and respond accordingly and
is fully capable of being interfaced, he had NOT had it connected.

Bill's logic is that there must be a human interface somewhere in the system,
and the closer to the actual helm, the better.

re -.1 >>"My answer is: none. My preference is clearly toward basic, 
          even minimal electronics."  

I whole heartedly agree with Alan. With multi,multi K$ invested in electronics, 
Bill, with the big wallet, checks the electronics from time to time, but 
generally stays topside with chart in hand and fine tunes the autopilot 
heading from time to time. 

Fred  Who-is-asking-Santa-for-an-Autohelm-800-this-year.

You already have the basic instruments. You don't mention VHF, but I assume
you have one.

Ultimately, there are two basic purposes for additional instrumentation for a
cruising boat:

	a) convenience
	b) safety

For coastal cruising, you already have all the convenience gear you need, except
perhaps an Autohelm. An Autohelm can be quite useful, especially when motoring
for long stretches. Note that this gizmo tempts you to completely abandon the
helm, i.e. you could run a risk of collision if you're careless.

When thinking about electronics for safety, I'd make one basic observation: It's
only a matter of time before your 12V system suffers a catastrophic failure.
Massive electrical failure becomes much more likely in a major crisis, e.g. a
knockdown or serious flooding. Fixed antennas are also quite vulnerable in
this type of situation.

Consequently, if you want to add some electronics for safety, add battery
operated equipment: handheld VHF, EPIRB, handheld LORAN or GPS. 

A radar is very handy in fog, but it's pricy, and it's a nuisance on your
mast. If you operate near shipping lanes, it will give you considerable
peace of mind in the fog. 

If you want to go offshore, you might consider SSB and weatherfax, after
you have a good raft.

--RS

    I agree with .4, Radar is a real advantage in coastal cruising. I
    sailed for many years without it, going to Maine in fog offshore at
    night, and also along the coast without Radar. It clearly can be done.
    
    The big advantage to Radar is it shows what is out there in the fog.
    Usually there is nothing there, but it is nice to have that assurance.
    
    At night in clear weather it is good to use it to find distances and
    bearings to other boats, to be sure you see everything, and
    particularly which one is closest.
    
    Going to St. John and returning, this summer would have been really
    hairy without it. One person in a powerboat followed me for 3 days
    because we had radar. He had been to St. John 3 or 4 times.
    
    I puchased the Raytheon 10x which has a waypoint identification feature
    if it is linked to Loran or GPS. Basically it puts a circle on the
    screen when the computed waypoint is within the screen. This helps to
    identify the mark you are heading for, and everything else is something
    to be avoided.
    
    After three years with Radar, trips to Maine, St. John and Nova Scotia
    I have found it to be an excellent aid, and also feel it increased the
    level of safety.
    
                              Bill

    Two years ago I sold off most of my Soverel 33's electronics with the
    thought that they would be obsolete before I could ever use them
    anyway.  Now a change in my life, means I can take the boat out of my
    back yard, off the cradle and start sailing again.
    
    I want to add two things to the to the Sailing computer (by NKE) and
    the LRX cockpit repeater.  These are the Navico Tillerpilot for a 45"
    boat (A Soverel has a very powerful rig and needs the "hard-over time"
    to maintain control) and a suitable nav-aid.  GPS would be nice, but
    these two must interface together.  I singlehand a lot, and you can
    trim or steer but not both.  I would love to have the tillerpilot steer
    towards waypoint instead of compass course.  
    
    So all that said, does anyone know if the marriage of a tillerpoilot to
    a gps is is possible and what would the components be?
    
    thanks in advance.
     

    
    	Yup- but you have to buy, at a minimum, the hand-programmer, at a
    maximum, their whole `net'.
    
    	Any techsters out there, who have done their own interface/
    repeater/ etc work? I'd like to do a winter project like VMG/CMG
    repeater from the Loran. It's probably not too tough once the output is
    understood...
    
    	What does the NKE Computer give you? Is it weather & salt proof?
    
    	Scott_who_loves_toys

    NKE is a French built 8088 CMos based sailing computer that is modular
    in design.  it uses a proprietary 4 wire bus that allows you to run a
    single cable around the ship attaching multifunction meters and
    dedicated guages on that single wire.  It has been used by that French
    sponsored multihull transocean race (i forget the name) becuase of low
    current drain.  I like it well enough except for the mast displays. 
    Nothing beats a B&G 2020 for that.
    
    It interfaces masthead AWS and AWD to boat speed and calculates TWS and
    TWD, albeit relative directions not compass directions.  NKE was
    working on interface to sailcomp last I knew (1990) so this might be
    done by now.  I also have the Depth guage by NKE.  There are many other
    functions such as barometric pressure and temp, engine hours, and alarm
    events that I do not use.  
    
    The system uses a lithium battery for keep alive when system power is
    off that lasts three years.  My unit is currently dead plastic and
    silicon as the litho gave up last year.  It is user programable by not
    in five minutes.  So after the battry is replace, I have a couple of
    hours bring the system back up.  The system is not unlike Occam but at
    50% of the price.  Mine cost about $4400 delivered with the boat.  I
    had to reinstall to get it working.  The original shipwrights not
    exactly being computer wizards, don't you know.
    
    The gating item on my nav/steerage rig will be the LRX.  This requires
    NMEA183 (I hope that is right) output from the nav aid.  I think this
    is the standard for steering data as well.  I expect to pay something
    like $900-1000 for the nav aid, $500-600 for the Tillerpilot and
    probably another $200-400 for the interface between the two.  I was
    hoping someone had sone data on model numbers, manufacturers, etc.
    
    EuroMarine Trading Company in Newport R.I. is the U.S. distributor and
    their number is (401)849-0060.  They have been very helpful and
    reliable (especially with my reinstall and the technical suport
    required. Ian Palmer is the perosn to talk to.  I had just contacted
    them a few days ago.  Their new system is quite expansive.  Includes
    GPS and electro magnetic speed (no more weed choked paddlewheel), Large
    scale readouts for the mast (2.5in high), integrated fluxgate compass
    for relative to true conversions and many many more.  They are
    preparing a proposal to take all my stuff intrade and offer the
    standard (installed base discount for up grades) discount.  I'll post
    that here when I receive the package.
    
    /bob
    

    
    	You may want to get prices from JSI (Johnson Sails Inc{?}) in
    Florida on the Navico stuff. My TP5500 came in under $US500 a couple
    seasons back. The handprogrammer, so far, won't come in under 200.
    
    	Oh yeah, the hand programmer also gives you the data from the
    fluxgate in the Tillerpilot. The Navico folks weren't really hot on
    helping me tap this data off; they just suggested mounting the thing
    athwartships while racing, and mounting the hand programmer on the
    bulkhead. No thanks.
    
    	The proprietary nature is what scares me off of Ockam, B&G, et al.
    I'm not at all sure of support 5 years out after purchase, and at the
    price of a new sail or two, that's just not cost competitive enough to
    be acceptable. Of course, this is no sled, either; it's an 11+K lb.
    "performance cruiser" or "comfy racer", whatever you call a nice hull
    shape with operating water heater etc.
    
    	Guess I'll keep my eyes peeled for a laptop PC cheap, and have that
    control the displays. I'm dreaming of both bulkheads having big LCD
    screens with all the tactical scoop.
    
    	Note the term... DREAMING...
    
    	How does the magnetic (or Hall effect?) speed sensor work? I can't
    believe that speedos and wind machines are still of Fred Flintstone
    design, in this day of <$100 lasers and night vision binoculars...
    
    	Scott

    Ian told me that the (electo-magneto, he called it) new speed sensor
    consists of shallow channel about 1in long with both the front and read
    ends faired into the surface of the plug (which fits into the original
    thru-hull) and is keyed to mount only in a fore/aft direction.  The
    inside edges of the channel contain an emitter and a pickup that
    establish lines of force across the channel.  Evidently (and I'm not
    enough of a physicist to be sure this right) water molcules passing
    through the lines of force create a minute change.  More molecules, a
    larger change, ergo speed creates a linear change.  neat huh?
    
    Also, Ian told me that my micro unit is no longer current.  They, NKE,
    still sell and support the unit but they used refurbished units as
    their stock and that is why they want me to trade up.                 
    
    The newer technology has reduce the bus to three wires, called it
    NETbus and have place the intelligence at the display.  So now, you
    install speed and depth, hook on the three wire cable, come back by the
    mast, splice the three wire coming down with AWD and AWS into the first
    cable, come aft with one cable to the displays, go past the fluxgate
    and integral GPS and pick up their inputs by splicing into the three
    wire cable and finally hook up to display units everywhere.  The
    signals are coded digital (not a trade mark of Digital Equipment
    corporation) signals that are picked off by the intelligence in the
    display.  No brain box can take your whole system down.  Flux compass
    goes down, who cares, use boat relative and do it the old way.
    
    I'm waiting for the butchers bill to upgrade.  I do like that speed
    meter tho,  The sell it (with the interface to adapt to my micro) for
    $430 -30%.  That is still about $320 or more than double the old paddle
    well unit tho. 
    
    BUT, boat speed is the Heart and Soul of the whole system.  Weeds are
    like minefields, they blow away your indicator and you are blind.  And
    that is not all.  In the 1989 Cmd Perry Race on lake Erie, Assassin was
    running third in the "A" division behind Migizi and White Lightning ( a
    Farr One Ton and the scratch boat, a J44), It was blowing buckets,
    27knt true at 140deg apparent.  Yes we had the chute up (the world is
    made up of fools) and the bow was smashing through the waves in front of
    us as we caught them and drove through them.  It was a very grim time,
    but this was the last six miles of a 68mile race and Migizi was only
    100yds ahead and 30yds to leeward.  No way could we go up, but neither
    could they.  Anyway the damn paddle wheel spun the axles right out of
    the sensor, so to this day I have no idea how fast that was but Migizi
    later said she was breaking 15kn and we were gaining on them.  
    
    I don't think paddlewheels can take that or were designed for it.
    
    I'm really looking forward to creating more memories like the one
    above.
    
    /bob
    

    I'm also interested in connecting my Navico 5500 TP to an NMEA183
    talker.  I understand fro the manuals etc. that I need both the hand
    programmer (to enter spped) and the junction box (or whatever it is
    called).  Both of these things together seem to be pretty pricey for
    the advantage that I would get.  
    
    Can anyone out there explain the (real) purpose of these guys and
    convince me why I should not simply build an NMEA183 coupler (I can get
    the specs) for a fraction of the cost ?
    
    Thanks.

    
    	*BOTH*??? This is news to me, could be true. I'll grab my glossies
    tonight, they had a few example diagrams of hookups. 
    
    	If anybody out there is NMEA - aware, I'd love to proto at least a
    simple display-
    
    	Scott

    Wow! talk about timing.  Got a catalog from Boat U.S. today that has,
    on page 59, an ad for a "member special"  on the Magellen GPS Meridian
    for $499.00.  this unit is a portable that is 3.5w x 6.125h x 1.25d
    (inches).  It contains a large backlit graphic display and features
    direct to, MOB and up to 100 waypoints.  it tracks up to 12 sats for
    uninterrupted 1sec updates.   AND it outputs NMEA 0183.    There is a
    kit for $289, that includes external antenna and 12vdc supply interface
    and another option is a quick release mounting bracket.
    
    This is worth looking at a little closer...
    
    /bob
    

    We are considering a replacement of our old IMI/Combi instrument
    cluster after many years of service. I am interested in the Autohelm
    and Navico brands of equipment and have a couple of questions. Does
    anyone know where Navico is manufactured? Has anyone experience with
    Navico instruments and if so how is the reliability, readability and
    customer service (if required)?  I have heard that the backlighting on
    Autohelm is not good - comments?
    
    We are just looking at the basic speed, depth and wind instruments in
    the cockpit with a multifunction unit inside at the nav station.
    
    Thanks for the help.
    
    	Howard

    I've had a set of Navico instruments for about 5 years now...  I've
    been pretty happy with them...  I'm pretty sure they are made in the
    UK, but I could be wrong...  I've had two occasions to call the Navico
    US operation in Florida....  Once when a boat yard decided that I
    didn't really want all three cups on the wind speed sender, and then
    this year when I notice4d the wind speed sender was sticking quite a
    bit...  Both times I go through quickly, the service reps were very
    good, got the right parts out to me... Fixing the 'dticky' unit this
    year required two new bearings...  I could have sent the unit to them,
    but I decided just to order the bearings and do it myself...  The rep
    gave me some helpful advice on what to do if the old ones had rusted
    and stuck, etc.
    
    I'll definitely buy Navico again...
    
    Steve Wark