Conference unifix::sailing

re .0:

My first reaction to your queries is that you need to adjust some 
expectations. 

Even in today's depressed market, I think that it will be difficult to 
find a well-built, well-equipped, well-maintained 34' to 38' offshore 
cruising boat less than 10 years old in good or better than good
condition for $50000 to $60000. 

My feeling is that by the time you've bought a boat and and done the 
necessary repairs/replacements/refurbishments/upgrades you'll have spent 
$75000 to $100000 or more. As a single example, new working sails for 
our 32' cutter were over $4000 two years ago (with 15% winter discount and 
no options such as roller furling on the headsails). The 10 year old 
sails they replaced were quite tired (though good enough for a 
charterer).

Second, I've yet to see a boat under 40' that I would both take offshore 
and find comfortable for six people. For me four crew is a crowd on a <40' 
boat for more than a weekend. 

Forgiving of banging into the bottom implies, to me, an external lead
keel, which does limit the choice of boat significantly.

A sense of spaciousness down below will depend on your personal sense of 
what is spacious and how many crew you have. I find our Valiant 32 amply
roomy for a crew of two and marginal at best for a crew of four. 

I'd agree with a cutter rig, as long as the staysail is hanked on and 
has a loose foot.

Fin keels of the long Valiant type are just fine and, in my view, 
preferable to a full-keel.

Double-enders are nice (what else can I say?) but they do have less 
stowage aft and you need to be sure that there is enough reserve 
bouyancy in the stern. The Valiant 32 is noticeably fuller aft than the 
Valiant 40. Not many double-enders around.

Skeg-hung rudders are definitely good, as long as the bottom of the 
rudder is well above the bottom of the keel. Spade rudders can be strong 
enough, but making them so is expensive.

I would not have either an anchor platform or a bow sprit. The bending 
loads on an anchor platform are trememdous in rough conditions. I want 
my ground tackle and sails on deck, for my safety if for no other 
reason. Besides, marinas and boatyards may charge for LOA, which makes a 
platform or bowsprit an ongoing additional expense. I keep waiting for 
someone to claim that our Valiant 32 is really a Valiant 34 since we 
have a windvane.

Medium to heavy displacement (length displacement ratio of 300 to 350) 
would be my choice, though clearly the trend is toward lighter.

A large double berth is nice but not really necessary (and becomes less 
so as one gets older). They're lousy sea berths, too.

A dedicated navigator's table -- yup, gotta have one. Make sure it has 
space to store a hundred charts or so. Most are much too shallow.

Huge storage and length under 40' are somewhat contradictory. 

Huge water/fuel tankage and length under 40' are also somewhat contradictory.
You can make a tradeoff between speed under power and fuel consumption. 
Our propeller is the economy model -- only about 5.7 knots in a calm and 
only 0.5 gallon per hour which gives us a range of 450 miles with a 40 
gallon tank. Make sure that there are at least two completely separate 
water tanks.

Three good sea berths -- yup, good idea, but not always possible in 
<40'. (I don't consider the average aft quarter berth a good sea berth 
-- too hard to get into/out of).

Valiant 40 -- my long-time dream boat.

Valiant 32 -- I'd be willing to circumnavigate mine with a crew of two 
(after making a few more modifications).

Alan

Have you looked at Island Packets?? not often on the market but they meet
all your requirements...they range from 27 to 44ft 

the 38...(41.5LOA) can be found on the used market

the 35 although fairly new, may be found used...and there is also a 31.

the room below often is saids to rival a boat several feet longer in each case.

Ample headroom throughout (6'4")..full keel, skeg bar between keel and balanced
hung rudder, rack&pinion direct steering....cutter rigged..


USCTR1::FLEISCHMANN

re .2:

>>> ..... the room below often is saids to rival a boat several feet longer in 
>>> each case.

The interior volume of a boat is more or less proportional to length 
times beam. To have more interior volume for a given length, the beam 
must increase. Beamy boats may or may not sail faster or better 
(whatever better means) than narrower boats. But ..... beamy boats are 
more prone to capsizing in big seas (as are lighter boats). See Note 193.

Also, Ted Brewer has proposed a formula for roughly estimating how 
comfortable the motion of a boat is. The formula indicates that comfort 
decreases with increasing beam and decreasing displacement. 

See Note 1397.16 for a BASIC program that calculates basic design data.

Alan

    I forgot to put Island Packet on the list. We have looked at the 35.
    It's nice, but too expensive at this time.

    re .1

    We have high expectations now, but know the whole process is one of
    compromise. We may go up on price, up in age, down in size, relax on
    detailed requirements, (and probably all of the above), etc. However,
    we wanted a somewhat reasonable starting point.

    Tayana 37's are routinely on the market listed at $60-70k. Assuming a
    final deal of from 10 - 15% off list, that puts us in the range at
    least on some models. I have seen a 10 year old Young Sun 35 listed at
    $69k too, so we are not totally out of band, just pushing the
    envelope...

    We also understand that after purchasing the boat, it will be some
    number of $1,000's later that it will be ready for offshore work. The
    sails are a good example.

    I have sailed offshore in boats ranging from 36' (6 people) to 44' (7
    people). The 36-6 was a, er, bit crowded, but we were racing, much
    younger, and we hot bunked it. Most of the boats we have seen are fine
    for 6 friendly people on a weekender, and ok for 4 on a long trip, and
    great for 2 while costal cruising. Again, it's a compromise.

    ------

    We expect the whole process to take from 2-6 months, involve many
    compromises and even more decisions. However, we intend to make it fun
    and will always place safety at the top of the list.

    tnx for the ideas

    
    	Good attitude Paul! _You_ are the customer, you get to pay, so shop
    till ya drop. I went shopping for an Evelyn 26, and wound up with a
    Beneteau 325. MUCH chunkier and comfier. There are deals out there;
    owners who want out, slight damage, timing... these are just a few of
    the factors that came thru for us.
    
    	Of course, the price per sail is tripled... ouch... so, ya cut back
    for a while! Push a few other things out (food, house repair, etc).
    
    	Anyway, visit a few boatyards every weekend- this is the time to
    look, rather than the spring when demand increases.
    
    	Have fun- let us know how it's progressing.
    
    	Scott.

    One of the general questions i have about the process is whether to
    involve a broker at this early stage or not.

    On the one hand, we could poor over Soundings listings and visit local
    boats to learn about the different models; then maybe call a broker to
    search for individual boats of that model if we couldn't find the right
    one or if all the good ones were only listed with brokers.

    On the other hand, a broker could show us listings of boats that meet
    our rough requirements, help set up visits, etc, and then help finding
    just the right one. They might make the process a little to "pushed",
    however, in order to get their check.

    Opinions?
    

    We do have a specific oportunity to look at a Valiant Esprit 37 ('80). Does
    anyone have any experience with these? While i'm sure they are pure
    Valiant, the aluminum toerail doesn't look that good, IMHO, and it
    seems like the deck and (too small) cockpit would be wet with no
    bulwark. Opinions?

    Also, does anyone have specific experience with a Tayana 37? They sure
    are pretty, but they have the fatest, ugliest underbody this side of a
    Westsail 32 i've seen.

    tnx,
    paul

re .6:

I haven't been aboard an Esprit 37 in years, so I don't remember the
cockpit layout specifically. I assume it is similar to the Valiant 32
cockpit. The Valiant 32 cockpit is very dry -- the flare to the hull
forward quite effectively throws spray off to the sides, even in rough
weather. The Valiant 32 and Esprit 37 cockpits may be small, but that is
exactly what you want offshore. Besides, a small cockpit leaves more 
interior space for living.

By the way, the Esprit 37 is a sloop, as I recall. The early Valiants 
were built by Uniflite, the early Esprits by Nordic, I think. A 
different resin was used, and I have not heard of Esprits having unusual 
blistering problems.

    
    Does anyone know about Bayfield 36's?   From the listing sheet it
    appears to be a full keel traditional design, but I had never
    even heard of them or looked at the boat as of yet.
    
    Any experiences/advice/opinions greatly appreciated.
    
    gary                                               

    I don't know the Bayfield 36, however there are several smaller
    Bayfields in our club, a 29, a 30 (why manufacture a 1 foot diff dunno)
    and a 32.  The 32 is a ship.  They are heavy displacement, cutter rig
    with (as you say full keel).  On the wind I dont think that they sail
    too close but they like reaching and stay with the pack on that point
    of sail.  Older boats but I think well built.  A good friend of mine
    owns the 32 and has the usual love hate relationship with it.  He
    bitches about the fact that the fuel tank cannot be removed (leak), the
    cockpit lay out is very much a cruising layout and in his case he has
    the Merriman Diesel with Hydraulic drive which caused him some trouble. 
    On the other hand, his family has done 580 million % more sailing since
    he bought it because his wife and daughter like the boat much more than
    their previous.
    
    These guys are pretty common in Canada and although they seem quite
    sturdy I believe that they are more designed for the Great Lakes than
    for Ocean stuff.  Bayfield went bankrupt probably 4 years ago (comes
    from making boats in 1 foot steps!) but there are still plenty around. 
    The bowsprit takes a little getting used to as well.

    Some friends of ours in Vancouver, BC own a Bayfield 36 and live
    aboard.  They have been cruising on the Georgia Strait and environs
    where it gets very nasty at times. The boat handles it well.  They plan
    to go do long-term cruising with her.
    
    We had the Bayfield 36 on a short list of boats that we were looking at
    when we were in the market a few years ago.  
    
    Another boat that was quite popluar on the west coast was the Union 36. 
    We know a number of cruisers who own these boats and like them (the
    usual cautions about Tiawan boats apply). They stopped building them
    about 5 years ago but are occasionally available on the used market. I
    would prefer the Union 36 to the Tyana 37, although both boats are out
    cruising the world.
    
    One other comment about the topic.  When we were in the market for a
    cruising boat a few years ago we had a similar wish list. We were
    targeting cruising boats in the 32 to 38 foot range.  We actually had
    offers on several, but in the end it took us five years of looking,
    reading, talking, sailing and thinking through what we really wanted. 
    In the end we shifted our view toward the larger end, and have owned a
    43' cutter for the past four years.  
    
    In retrospect, we learned a lot in the five years and made the right
    decision for us.  We would do it the same way again. Just another
    interesting point about size.  Most of our cruising friends that have
    boats in the lower 30' range would move up to a boat in the upper 30 to
    lower 40 foot range if they had the chance. As has been pointed out in
    another note, comfort at sea is directly related to size and mass (as
    well as other factors). Having travelled to a number of cruising
    destinations in Mexico and the South Pacific we have observed that the
    majority of cruisers vote for boats clustered around the 40 foot +
    range. I believe that Jimmy Connell did a survey sometime back that
    also made that point.  If you are considering long ocean passages and give
    comfort priority, larger is probably better.
    
    By the way, another benefit of waiting the five years was that we found
    a well appointed 43' cruising boat for little more than we had
    considered paying for a number of 36 to 38 foot boats.  Many of the
    upgrades that we are making on Viking Rose cost no more than if we had
    a smaller boat.  The advantage is that we have the room to work with
    (eg. electrical systems, tankage, stowage, etc.)
    
    Regards,
    
         Howard
                                                      

re .10:

Howard is right -- larger boats (40' to 45') do have significant 
advantages over smaller boats. I certainly would like my Valiant 32 to 
grow up to be a Valiant 40. 

However, larger boats do have a significant disadvantage -- cost, both
acquisition and upkeep. There are tradeoffs to be made. In our case, 
barring unforseen financial windfalls, selling our Valiant 32 and buying 
a Valiant 40 would delay our early retirement by five and perhaps as 
much as ten years (by which time early retirement would become regular 
retirement). The extra investment needed for a Valiant 40 would easily
fund five years of cruising on our Valiant 32. For now, we're planning 
on early retirement and sailing our 32 while we're young enough and 
healthy enough to enjoy doing so. But, if that windfall happens ......

Alan

    I agree with the comfort observations of a larger boat, but side with
    Alan on the cost issue.

    Like boats, the older we get, the more things break down. We are not
    going to retire to a long cruise, but hope to take a year's sabatical
    during which we will make a couple of long passages. I want to be
    healthy enough to go forward in a gale, and stand some kind of chance
    to get back to the cockpit.

    I more or less figured out what we could reasonable afford, and tried
    to follow listings in that price range. Boats capable of bluewater
    cruising and fitting in the $60k range seem to fall in the 34-37' size
    catagory. I too would love a Valiant 40, but it's only a dream.

    We have contacted a broker (Ted Rose in Marion) which whom i;ve delt
    before, and he's preparing a package for us. I sent a beefed up copy of
    .0 to him to set our parameters. We'll see what results on a few days.

    As a somewhat humorous note, i got out my old copy of the Proper
    Cruising Yacht (or whatever it's name is) by Don Street � 1973. Boy
    have some things changed and some not. For example, the pictures of the
    coal burning stove offer stark contrast to the comfort and ease of an
    Espar heater!

     One tradeoff we might make is gear vs. size and age. That is, it's
     going to be 3 or maybe 4 years before we can take a year off. In that
     time, we could outfit the boat with a great many required items
     (anchor windlass, liferaft, etc) if we do not have to get the topsides
     awlgripped, or the engine overhauled, or new sails, or all new hoses,
     etc. I guess it is better to start with a nice clean, well built and
     not so old boat and outfit her, than to start with a loaded boat and
     have to do major upgrades.

     In any event, the broker mentioned that he might have to reset some of
     our expectations, so who knows what will happen.

     Re the long search period. While i'd love to take that long, i just
     can't wait any longer. We will have a new (used) boat by next spring.

     p.s. Does anyone remember the name of that outfit in Boston that
     teaches city kids to sail? Do they take donations? It's named after a
     former 12 meter cup boat.

     tnx,
     paul

    
    I'd be curious if anyone can compare performance (speed with the
    ability to withstand harsh conditions) of boats in the
    category listed in this note.   My concern is the tradeoff between
    the reality of most of our schedules (daysailing, weekends, 2-4 weeks
    contiguous cruising), with the desire to have a solid, "off shore"
    capable boat (and in my case, traditional in appearance).    
    
    Solid as a rock, but doesn't point at all?  Needs
    20 knts to get out of its own way?  Fast but uncomfortable in a 
    seaway.  Any of these tradeoffs would not
    work for me.  
    
    Not to sound like a beer commerical, but can I have it all?  Are there
    numbers or metrics that provide real comparisons (for us engineers).
    
    
    Gary
    
    PS...thanx to noters advice on the Bayfield  
    
                                                             
    

The magazine COASTAL CRUISING (sort of like Soffshore but for the south east)
had an article a couple of issues back.

The author's conclusion was something like after all was said and done he
liked the change from slow but sturdy to his new fast but flimsy sail boat.
Personally I thnk this comes from finally being honest about how you are 
actually going to sail.

In my case I tried to described both to myself and others what type of sailing
I would be doing (#2032).  Fast and flimsy gets favorable mention.  I will be
doing coastal cruising.  Getting caught in a big storm will be an avoidable 
mistake, getting caught by a squall line in the summer will be inevitable.

I do not intend to go off shore and spend multiple days at sea.  I do want a
comfortable motion along the Cape.  I am not searching for a brutally strong
(expensive) boat.  I think the author of this article orignally thought in 
terms of weekend trips to Bermuda etc. (look I know that you can't sail 
there that fast but people can still dream)

In general it looks like you can't have it all, inspite of what the boat ads
tell you.  Heavy => slower but more comfortable.  Light => faster but bring
flight bags.

Read the article for at least one person's insight who has been both ways.
Read (#2032) and its replies for additional amusement.

Doug (still looking)
dtn 244 -7042

Once again, let me recommend Marchaj's "Seaworthiness, The Forgotten 
Factor". Well worth the effort needed to read it if you are considering
a boat for offshore sailing. 

re .13:

Numbers such as length/displacement ratio and sail area/displacement
ratio give a rough guide to performance. Typically light with oodles of
sail area is fast (and see the note on the motion_comfort ratio). And
typically moderate to heavy is much more comfortable. There are moderate
displacement boats that are capable sailors and extremely capable
offshore boats (eg, the Valiant 40). 

I agree -- you can't have it all. 

    re.12
    I think you may be thinking of the Courageous Sailing Center.  I don't
    know the address, but they're in the old Charlestown navy yard.
    
    djc
    

    Courageous Sailing Center - that's it.

    Update:

    We will be looking at a Young Sun 35' and a Sea Sprite 34' this
    weekend. Does anyone have any experience with either of these?

    tnx,
    paul

    I worked with a fellow who lived aboard a Young Sun 35 with his wife in
    Seattle. He took an early retirement and went cruising so I have lost
    track of him.
    
    His boat was comfortable for two and was well laid out for a cruising
    couple after the usual upgrades.  He indicated that she sailed about as
    would be expected for a heavy displacement 35 foot cutter, not fast in
    light air, but comfortable in a seaway.
    
    As for the boat, it was typical mid-70s Taiwan construction where the
    builder did some corner cutting.  I recall that this particular boat
    had some problems with water tanks and non-stainless fasteners below
    decks.  I would also look closely at the hull to deck joint and bulkhead
    to hull joints.
    
    As of a few years ago these boats were priced very reasonably compared
    to the "name brand" competition, however they did not come on the
    market that often (on the West Coast).
    
    Cheers,
    
         Howard

re Young Sun:

I've never looked at one closely. Indeed, my only impression of them is 
that they were imported/marketed/sold for a rather short time. It seems 
to me that any such boat should be viewed with more than the usual 
skepticism. There are usually good reasons why a builder/brand/model do 
not survive in the marketplace (and usually good reasons why they do).

Just a thought.

    The boat we will be looking at was built in 1980. It's a little older
    than we wanted, but it is loaded with cruising equipment that's on our
    to-get list. We will see if the age and quality vs equipment tradeoff
    is an easy one to make. Mostly now, however, we just want to get a feel
    for suitability and overall quality: does it "fit" us, and is it a good
    base from which to equip an offshore cruiser.

    In the area of just how does one *look* at a boat, how *does* one look
    at a deck/hull joint, or hidden water tanks, etc? While there are some
    things on which i feel comfortable passing judgement, there are others
    i do not. Of course our eventual choice will be surveyed and test
    sailed and we will contact Cruising World's another opinion, but it
    seems no matter how careful you are, Murphy's law will strike within
    one year of purchase.

    If you were being show a boat by a broker, how long would you spend
    doing it? Would you open every locker, scavange about in hard-to-get
    places? Take an engine oil sample? Insist in seeing the sails the first
    time?

    While we are in a model selection mode and not trying to find the best
    in model, it seems like it will be difficult to not start looking at
    details.

    In preparation, we are developing our list of things to have on the
    "Ultimate Cruising Boat" and use that as a check list. The list has
    things that would be very expensive, time consuming, and awkward to
    make right (e.g. no deckhouse combing on which to attach the leading
    edge of a cockpit dodger), to things i'd rather do myself anyway (e.g.
    install a new radar). We seem to be at the stage of selecting a model
    that has all of the first items and at least facilitates providing the
    second level of items.


    Another thing i have difficulty understanding is the prices of some of
    the boats we are considering. For example, a good Tayana 37 will list
    in the $70-$80k range while a compareable Cape Dory 36 is considerably
    more. The CD36 is a handsome, well built boat, but of lesser overall
    quality that a T37 (IMHO, of course). Or a shannon 28, which lists for
    in the $70-100k range!

    I talked last night to the owner of a Southern Cross 39. It's only
    partially factory finished (level 3). I think i'll stay away from that,
    even though would entertain an offer in our range.

A couple of more thoughts: You can't see or inspect every detail of a
boat's construction, which leaves you to some extent dependent on the
reputation of the builder and his dedication (or lack of) to building a
quality boat. This to a degree might explain the difference in asking
prices between, say, a Cape Dory and a Shannon (I agree, Shannons,
especially the 28, tend to be overpriced). Certainly, some Taiwan-built
boats are excellent, some are not. 

Quality is not always apparent. Builder A might opt for an external lead 
keel and good but not great joinerwork. Builder B might use an 
encapsulated lead keel and first class joinerwork. At first glance boat 
B would appear to be higher quality. In the long term, boat A might be 
the better choice. Or, less obviously, might be quality of the 
electrical wiring. 

Also, the value of the equipment on the boat to a considerable extent 
depends on its age. Things do have a finite life span, though we (I at 
least) tend to not want to admit it. At a guess, the owner of a 
well-equipped boat will want you to think of all that equipment in terms 
of what it will cost you to buy it, not what it is worth in reality. You 
don't want to overpay for something that will need replacement in the 
not too distant future.

Alan

    Well, we looked at a Sea Sprite 34 and Young Sun 35 this past weekend.
    Quite an educational experience, as we more or less expected.

    We spent 5 minutes on the Sea Sprite. It had only 6'1" headroom and i
    topped out in quite a few places. Our first requirement is lotsa
    headroom. Reject. It is a beautiful boat in most other aspects,
    though. Some comments from memory:

	The shrouds are in the middle of the deck and make going forward
	difficult.

	It has a fractional rig.

	A "small" feeling to it down below (even ignoring the lack of
	headroom)

	The one we looked at was well maintained.

    We then litterally moved over two boats (hopping from boat to boat at
    Barden's in Marion) to go over the Young Sun 35, which we did in
    earnest. The broker just left us alone and we spent the next 2+ hours
    going over everything. Comments:

	Overall it was very cosmetically challanged. The outside teak was
	in sad, but recoverable shape. Just needs lots of elbow grease.
	Teak decks, cabin top, outside bulwarks, and almost everywhere
	else. I like teak, but this might have gone over the edge.

	The recent owner(s) have not maintained it well. Enhancements have
	been awful hacks. For example, a stereo was simply placed on a foam
	pad in a locker and the wires (much too small guage) were loosely
	run to the two speakers placed in giant bulkhead cutouts. The
	plumbing was a nightmare. Unconnected hoses, hose runs with 3
	differing sizes of hose, etc.

	No place for electronics. Wiring unlabeled and undersized.

	Good  natural lighting, but the skylight does/will almmost
	certainly leak. It's (supprise) all teak.

	Roomy head but the head and plumbing need replacement.

	Nice vee berth, sufficient room and ventalation.

	Great space in the main saloon with a dinette arrangement, my
	personal favorite.

	Engine in tough shape (Yanmar 33). Needs clean up, rewiring;
	dipstick difficult to access; etc.

	Galley: whole storage under sink rendered useless by water heater.

	Lotsa tankage (135/45)

	All the seacocks have rusty levers and most don't turn.

    In general, the hull, major construction (e.g. bulkhead tabbing into
    the hull) are well done. The joiner work is OK, but not seamless.
    Subsystems are in tough shape.

    I love the cutter layout, cockpit size, etc. but am put off by the
    shear work of getting it up to snuff.

    We are making some search adjustments. I've upped the price window and
    are looking for a newer and higher base quality boat. We expect to
    have to do work, but work to get it ready for a passage; not to keep
    the skylight from leaking or replacing all the hoses.

    I guess not that many Young Suns were made. The reason may have been
    overall quality. It's not much good to have a great hull and deck, good
    woodwork, and mediocre subsystems.

    We are going to look at a Bayfield 36 next, then after that an Esprit
    37. Our latest revised qualifiers:

	Well built blue water cruiser
	Spacious accomidations
	Quality (not quantity) of subsystems


    That's it for this correspondant for now...

    Just curious, how much for the Young Sun?
    
    Brian

    They are asking about $73k for the Young Sun. It's a 1983. I'll bet
    they'd take $60k for it, imho. I'm staying away until i prove to myself
    that a) i can muster the will to do all the work to get it up to snuff,
    and b) it's the only thing available, which it's not.

    It's available through Rose Yacht sales, 508/748-2211.
    
    paul

re .24:     

>>>    They are asking about $73k for the Young Sun. It's a 1983. I'll bet
>>>    they'd take $60k for it, imho. 

I'd bet that they would, too. IMHO, $60k would be about right if the
boat were both in cosmetically excellent condition and well maintained. 

By the time a boat is 10 years old, there is potentially much
repair/replacement/refurbishing/etc needed, all of which can be quite
costly. Besides sails (which I mentioned before), another example is the
engine. Say the engine has a life of 15 years and costs $6000 to 
replace. If you buy a 10 year old boat, you potentially face a $6000 
engine replacement in just five years. I personally would be most
reluctant to depart on extended sailing with a 15 year old engine. 
Another consideration: what quality wire was used for the standing 
rigging? What quality swaging and turnbuckles? Rerigging is far from 
cheap. 

All in all, there is a lot to be said for buying a newer boat. The 
additional cost may well be less than the cost of refurbishing an older 
boat. 

Alan

    Has anyone heard of a Union 36 cutter?

    It was originally marketed under the Hans Christian name and is a
    heavily constructed Tiwan type boat. For example, sail area: 786,
    displ: 22,500 (Displ/SA: 28.62). Lots of teak, excellent joiner work,
    etc.

    It was also sold under the name EO 36, i think.

    The original bulders took a 34' Bob Perry design and scaled up in the
    lofting, and built it w/o paying any royalties to him. Mr Perry was
    understandibly pissed, and things got messy. The owner was not clear
    about all this, so i'm looking for more info. The owner also did not
    know which yard built it, but thought it was EO.

    Anyone know any more details on this?

    I have a photograph of the boat and it's georgous. But it looks like it
    needs all 52 HP and the 100 gal of fuel to get anywhere in anything
    weaker than a gale.

    tnx,
    paul

    (ps update: the Young Sun in Marion is under agreement)    
    

re .26:

I think you've miscalculated the SA/displacement ratio. A bit under 16 
is more like it. The number you've given is way up there past the top 
end of ULDB racers.

A note of caution when calculating the SA/displacement ratio for 
cutters. The standard way to do the calculation is to use the mainsail
area and the area of a 100% jib. The area of the staysail is not
included. A number of builders, especially those of overly heavy boats,
like to include the staysail area to make the ratio look better, ie,
smaller. The EO36 is almost certainly a very slow boat and probably not 
a lot of fun to sail, especially in light winds. 

Alan

    I am not sure of your price range, therefore this might not fit.
    Tom Morris is listing a Hinkley 38, which I think is the only one
    they built. I think this is a Sparkman and Stevens design which
    Hinckley built, did not like the original layup schedule and
    overbuilt the boat. Hinckley did not like the idea of a fin
    keel and spade rudder.
    
    I think it might be a boat to look at, if it fits your price range
    and design criterior.
    
                           Bill hill

    I'm not sure of any of the numbers. The info i got on the Union 36 (EO
    36?) is a 3/4 page sketch.

    I'm almost certain any Hinckley is out of our range.

    tnx,
    paul

    re: .26 .27
    
    Paul,
    
    Friends of ours in Seattle own and live aboard a Union 36. They could
    provide input to your questions.  They are skilled cruisers and racers
    and have participated in a number of west coast off-shore races with
    their boat. I am sure that they would take exception with Alan's
    comment in .27. A common misconception is that full-keel and heavy =
    slow = not fun to sail.  As David King showed to a rather humiliated
    race committee in Hawaii a few years ago even a Westsail 32 can perform
    competitively if the boat is carefully prepared and sailed with skill.
    
         Howard

re .30:

>>> ..... even a Westsail 32 can perform competitively if the boat is 
>>> carefully prepared and sailed with skill.
    
No doubt, but when racing one is competitive when one beats other boats
based on some (more-or-less) arbitrary rating scheme that gives a time
allowance to slower boats. (Another example is the heavy wooden Aage
Neilsen ketch Holgar Danske that won the Newport-to-Bermuda race a few
years ago to, I gather, the considerable annoyance of the moneyed racer
crowd.) Racing success does not necessarily have anything to do with
being able to sail quickly in an absolute sense. I think it is generally
true that moderate displacement boats with reasonable sail area will get
from A to B faster (ie, in less time) than similar size heavy
displacement boats with low(er) sail area/displacement ratios. Achieving
a reasonable sail area/displacement ratio with heavy displacement means
using big sails. And to me, at least, handling big(ger) sails isn't as
much fun (or as safe or as easy or as fast) as handling small(er) sails.

My suggestion would be to at least be aware of the tradeoffs of heavy 
displacement before purchasing such a boat. One not as obvious tradeoff 
is that full-keel, heavy displacement boats are appeal to a smallish 
segment of the sailing population and thus may be more difficult to 
resell.

Alan

    I stand somewhat firmly in the middle of this argument. (which may be
    my problem selecting a boat...)

    On the one hand, a heavy boat may be more likely to be more comfortable
    in storm conditions. On the other hand, a ligher displacement boat will
    sail better in ligher winds.

    I think i read that an average cruising apparent wind is about 15kts.
    Except on a beam reach, i don't thing a Westsail 32 will reach hull
    speed in 16 kts.

    I do not want a Westsail-like boat. I have only listened to about 30
    minutes of marine ham chatter on the airwaves in my whole life (14.313
    Mhz). In those 30 minutes (about 8 years ago) i heard the Westsail used
    twice as a synonim for slowness.

    I chartered a Southern Cross 31  (quite Westsail like) once in San
    Diago (at Decus) and the only conclusion was that we could swim faster.

    The Union 36 looks like a beefy, heavy displaycement cutter, but it
    also looks quite nice to the eye. I'm going to have my brother in law
    in OH check it out, video tape it, etc. and i'll report the results
    here.

    re .-2

    I'd love to talk to your friends in Seattle. The Union 36 is supposed
    to be popular on the West coast.

    re SA/Displ.

    Yes the formula that i sued was incorrect. It is:

    SA/D = Sail area  / ((displacement  / 64 ) ** (2/3))
    
    I think this puts the Union 36 in the league of heavy displacement
    cutters, not in the Westsail 32 class.
    

re .32:

According to my calculations, the Westsail 32 is at the far end the heavy 
displacement spectrum. 

	length/displacement = 419
	sail area/displacement = 15.2

By comparison, other cutters:

   Valiant 40
	length/displacement = 256
	sail area/displacement = 15.1

   Valiant 32
	length/displacement = 300
	sail area/displacement = 16.0

   Crealock 37
	length/displacement = 334
	sail area/displacement = 15.6

   Tayana 37
	length/displacement = 360
	sail area/displacement = 16.6  (this probably includes staysail area)

    re .28
    
    The Hinckley 38 may not be as outlandishly expensive as some of the
    better known models.  I've seen them in the range under discussion.
    
    One reason the price is likely to be sub six figures is that most of 
    them are around 20 years old.  There was a small production run in the
    early seventies (maybe earlier) but the 38 never acquired the cult
    following of the Bermuda 40.  It isn't likely that any newer ones were
    built.  But the factory is still there and they can still answer
    questions about the boat.  Can't say that about many newer used boats
    on the market.  They speak English too (Ayup).
    
    Design wise, the 38 is extreme middle of the road.  Medium heavy
    with not as much overhang as the B40 and a moderate sail plan.
    The fin keel is the shallow but long type with a foil shape and an 
    adjustable trim tab. This is patterned after the keels on 12 meters.  
    By locking the tab to the rudder with the concentric steering wheel 
    it's possible to spin the boat aroung briskly in a crowded anchorage.  
    Or lock it straight ahead for easy tracking on a long passage.  
    Sounds strange but it really works.
    
    The other quirky thing is the amount of storage in the stern.  Lots of
    it.  There should be, there's no engine there.  It's in the bilge. 
    Along with the battery set.  There are pluses and minuses with this. 
    Some pluses - keeps the weight low and the keel low for remarkable
    pointing.  Also makes for a very quiet engine.  The minus - it is a
    cost effective idea to keep the bilge as dry as possible.  If water
    rises up to the floor boards, the engine has just turned into internal
    ballast.
    
    Otherwise, the 38 is just your usual Hinckley - pilot berths, wide
    walkways, good sized comfortable cockpit, nice joinery, teak rails and
    coamings, nice lines, etc., etc.  Worth a call.
    
    

    re: 15 kn average windspeed ? Far too high. In the Atlantic, we had 7-9
    kn and Earl Hinz in his 1993 edition of "Landfalls to paradies" speaks
    of 9 - 11 kn average in the Pazific.
    
    re: slow and heavy ? Fast and light ?  This is not always true, if you go
    cruising. People load there boats with gear and drinks, extra
    fuel, water etc, until there is no space left. A heavy displacement
    boat is more forgiving if you "overload" it then a light boat. Where
    are you going to store 300 feet of chain, 3 heavy anchors, etc in a
    light displacement boat of 34-38 feet lenght ? 
    
    "Jonathan Seagull" (30', long keel, very heavy displacement) has
    in/on the bow:
    
    2 anchors   		 60lb
    220 feet 8mm chain		210lb
    200 liter water		400lb
    1 dinghy			 70lb
    100 liter diesel		200lb  (just for the first week or so)
    
    almost in the bow 
    
    30 feet 8mm chain		 30lb
     2 dive tanks		 80lb
    dive equipment		120lb
    clothes, spare parts	100lb
    
    I can move the chain from the chainlocker to the bilge during an
    extened offshore passage.
    
    
    Peter

    
    	A few replies back, was the issue of keels vs. success in which
    rating system. I don't know of ANY rule that could make a straight-line
    race, like the Marion-Bermuda, Marblehead-Halifax, anyplace-Hawaii,
    fair. If it's not an olympic triangle, constant wind, no current, no
    local knowledge, then, face it, it's REALLY tough to say who won,
    especially a tight finish.
    
    	Weight vs. speed: NOT! There are some ultralight dogs out there, a
    few too many IMS bumps on them, being sailed out of designer's waters,
    that make the Westsail look good. There are successful older, chunkier,
    heavier designs as well, with the owner steering for decades, rather
    than a rock star out for the weekend. Check out the Gulf of Maine
    results. Lighter and longer IS the way to bet, tho...
    
    	Peter makes an Excellent point about loaded vs. unloaded
    performance. Whenever race comittees inspect winners after larger
    regattas, guaranteed someone gets tossed for no anchor, furnishings
    removed, fuel tank empty, etc. etc.
    I can feel the fullness of my water tanks in a quick tack. And the
    storm anchor lives low in the bilge, even when cruising. What a hassle
    when the wind kicks up in Nantucket!!
    
    	One bit of wonderful data is polar plots of a boat's performance.
    USSA (ex-USYRU) in Newport keeps a database. If you lay polars of 2
    boats one on top of the other, it may be glaringly evident of which
    reaches, runs, points better at which windspeed. And, in defense of
    more performance-oriented rigs; a big main on a taller mast can always
    be reefed, but the shorter sticks limit your light-air possibilities.
    
    	Anyway- 2 more � for your `database'!
    
    	Have fun-
    
    	Scott

    As this is my first attempt at notes, please excuse any protocal
    errors!  Iam currently planning our "breakaway" in my C&C 37 that we
    have raced heavily nad very successfully for the last 12 years.  With
    that, you know how I feel about fin keels, etc.!   I also "retired"
    from corporate life to manage a C&C, Valient and Pearson dealership here
    in Houston before I had to return to the real world (or face divorce)! 
    My idease have been molded by friends who have cruised successfully in
    the Carib. in the same boat as ours and a close friend who recently 
    completed a circumnavigation in a Pacific Seacraft Mariah 31.
    	a. shallow draft is not the requirement that many think it is.   It
    is very easy to run aground with 5 ft, as it also is with 7ft, if you
    do not pay attention. I plan to spend up to 2 years in the Bahamas with
    7 ft. (loaded) draft (I know, crazy!).  It can be done! - been there,
    done that!b
    	b. heavy, full keel can be very slow in most conditions and not
    being effective to windward is a pain.  
	c. Sailing is more fun than motoring-fewer gallons of D. and
    better sailing characteristics may make sense.
    	d.   Heavy built does not necessarily mean well built.
        e.  Ease of handling (maneuvering) makes cruising a lot more fun. Same
    characteristics lets the auto pilot work better and longer.
    	f.  Teak on deck needs to be maintained-are you willing to do
    so????   Carring the stuff to varnish, etc. does not really make sense
    if you don't have to.
    Anyway, just some counterpoint.   Haven't had the opportunity to read
    all replies.    Bottomline, try looking at the C&C Landfall 38.   For 2
    people, not bad.   Long fin keel, reasonable stowage, rod rigging (I think
    good!) and priced right and most have not been very abused (watch for
    ex charter boats).   Unforunately, any valient built before 1982 has a
    blister potential.   However, there can also be some excellent buys if
    you like blisters!  Repair is not permanent, no matter what anyone
    tells you.   The chance is always there, short of new glass.
    This is coming from Houston, Texas.  Great racing but not so good
    cruising!
    
    Lee Demarest
    

-.1  Lee,  I took a C&C 37 Landfall for a week's charter  (Lauderdale, G.Bahama,
Bimini, Miami and intercoastal Lauderdale). Its a nice quick boat, we kept
up with heavier 48 footers easily enough and stomped an Endevour 42. Keel depth
 didn't worry me (and I'm normally a centre-boarder) 

Where I thought the boat was lacking was in the storage/tankage department. 
This boat has very shallow bilge and not a lot of storage space. Decent tankage
(water/fuel/holding tank) can eat up all the under-berth storage and that 
doesn't leave a whole lot of space for all the stuff you want to load up for 
extended cruising. I'd guess some other cruising-oriented 37's have a lot more 
space than this racehorse. Just a though.

Steve

    Hey, this is fun!  Keep in mind that I am talking about 2 diferent
    boats.   I am going on a C&C 37 (mkI), which is a "racer/cruiser"
    because 1. I own it!  (different boat will cost at least 50k
    additional, even for same size), 2. I like sailing upwind!!   We are
    ashort on stowage and fuel, too. (i won't say what we carry, you'll
    know I am nuts!!)   Water tankage is 85 gallons and I
    plan to install shortly a powersurvivor 35 watermaker (convertible to
    manual is emergency).  The Landfall 38 is a different boat, but still
    has some of the same shortcomings. I had forgotten what the actual
    stowage was.  My wife liked the relatively big head!
       If there is interest in a note on
    extended cruising equipment, count me in!  I have been doing much
    research and would like to bounce conclusions off knowledgeable people.
    
    Lee
    

    re: .38
    
    Hey; now watch out how you talk about the 48' Cheoy Lee "Nueva Vida"
    
    	:-)
    
    That trip sure was FUN!  The fact that my spouse and I got the queen's
    rear birth didn't hurt a bit either!  Stereo, air-conditioning, nightly
    jaunts up above thru its hatch, private shower - and then there was I
    at the helm during the cross back over the Gulf of Mexico with 50+ knot
    winds for hours.  I loved it!  What a boat compared to the 26' Pearson
    when sailing with a reefed jib and reefed main in a real howl!  The
    only thing the Cheoy Lee cried about was the ripping off of the bimini
    as the boat crashed against 8 to 12 foot chop.  I repeat!  It was
    GREAT!!!
    
    	Regards,
    
    	Ron
    
    ps: Tom; so when we gonna make another trip???
    

    An update.

    We will be leaving this friday to tour the southern states looking at
    boats. We will be seeing:

	1   '85 Tayana-37, single owner, real clean, up and down the ICW
	    type
	2   '81 T-37, 2 owner, already-been-everywhere, everything
	    including a windvane
	3   '85 T37, similar to #1, but with less equipment
	4   '80 Esprit 37 ("Passe Partout", Bob Parshley, formerly from
	    DEC), super well equipped

    We have gone over many listings, but have inspected relatively few boats
    (kinda of like catalog shopping).

    This trip might produce a finalist, or just confuse us more.

    Btw, the #2 boat has a raw water cooled engine. If it's 12 years old, i
    imagine it's real close to needing replacement? Does Anyone have
    experience with raw water cooling?

    tnx,
    paul

    Paul,
    
    I've got an 81 Alden 36 with a 35hp Volvo Penta with Raw Water Cooling.
    It has spend all of it's life prior to the last 6 months in Salt
    Water. I've not had any cooling related problems in the 3.5 years I've
    owned the boat, save for having to replace one of the two water
    mufflers due to corrosion along the seams of the stainless steel.
    
    Raw water cooling doesn't necessarily mean you'll be purchasing a piece
    of rust for an engine. It's condition will depend on the salinity 
    of the water the boat resided in and how well it was taken care of.
    
    Good luck!
    Robert

    The salinity of the ICW is pretty much the same as the Atlantic and the
    only way I can conceive of "taking care" of the engine would be to have
    a "flush" adapter in line between the raw water seacock and the water
    pump.  I have this installed so that I can hook up a hose and pump
    fresh water into the system (with seacock closed) and run the engine
    for a few minutes to flush out all traces of salt water.  Why might you
    need this on Lake Erie?  You don't, but if I was to do the Soverel 33
    nationals in Florida or Long Island......you see the point.
    
    If you cannot find this on the prospective cruiser....well maybe there
    is a sacrificial anode and that has been changed often (My yanmar has
    one, not even pitted yet).  Beyond that and its rustin.....and where
    will that hurt worst?...probably in water pump, thermostat (if there is
    one) and exhaust with exhaust taking the worst beating.  Take a look at
    the engine room.  Reasonable pride will demand cleanliness here.  That
    same pride will drive an attitude toward prevention rather than
    reluctant repair.
    
    /bob
    

I have a 1973 Farymann with raw water cooling. It's still doing OK. I think
the shaft zinc tends to protect the motor insides from rust, but I really
don't know much about it. A friend of mine had a Yanmar with fresh water
cooling that need a heat exchanger overhaul after only four years.

The bad news: raw salty water running through your engine.
The good news: no heat exchanger with raw salty water running through it, and
   one less water pump.

--RS

    (caution, long rambling note follows)

    Well, after 2,000+ miles on the road we have answered a number of
    questions but have come up with yet more, perhaps more meaningful
    questions more to replace those answered.

    For example, I'm trying to figure out why bulwarks appeal to me. I
    like the look of a cruising boat with bulwarks (probably in the 6-10"
    range) and a reasonable bowsprit.

    I believe they provide safety while working forward, but wouldn't a
    good net on strong stantions do that too?

    I think they might make the deck drier, but isn't it the total topside
    height and bow design that does that?

    What other real or perceived advantages/disatvantages do bulwarks
    provide?

    Another example is the bowsprit. I like the look of a bowsprit. My
    believe is (or maybe was) that it is eaqsier to anchor and weigh anchor
    from a bowsprit. It also provides more sail area for a given LOD/LWL.
    Yet many people sail the worlds oceans without them.

    What other real or perceived advantages/disatvantages do bowsprits
    provide?

    What about age of things. For example when do the following things
    become real serious candidates for replacing?
	Westerbeke desel
	Yanamar   "
	Mainsail, staysail
	throughull fittings
	expoy barrier coat
	rod rigging
	regular rigging
	black iron fuel tank?
	water heater
	
    Opinions are always welcome

    The reason i'm examining these basic beliefes is that we saw 3 Tayana
    37's and one Esprit (Valiant) 37, and the Esprit is much higher quality
    than the Tayuana's in many important catagories.

    I can sum up the Esprit's plusses and minusses as follows:

	Plusses:
	    Good price for the boat,
	    good layout (we want a vee birth, dinnette, quater berth
		arrangement),
	    easy maintainance (little wood that needs work, easy access to
		stuff,
	    high quality subsystems),
	    overall good condition (could cruise the Bahamas tomorrow, and
		boy wouldn't i like to but that's another story...)
	    many extras: heat, radar, Grunert fridge, givens liferaft, etc.

	Minusses:
	    less storage than a Tayana 37
	    No bulwarks (is this plus or minus)
	    No bowsprit
	    small, fairly uncomfortable cockpit - can be improved, however,
		with a bit of work
	    looks "plastic" - large white hull; no rubstrake, white decks
		with many many grey non-skip patches
	    It's a 1980 valiant (built by Uniflite) and there's always the
		blister spector; i'm gona call Valiant about this
	    

	The minuses (except the cockpit comfort) are somewhat emotional,
	but that counts too when buying a boat.


	All three Tayana's we looked at had custom layouts. To each his/her
	own, but some people just shouldn't be doing custom boat interior
	designs. For example, one had a quarter cabin aft to port, a
	scrunched galley to stbd, and as a consequence the nav station was
	a fold down table under the deck in the dark quarter cabin
	rendering it useless for practical navigation.

	Another thing about the Tayana's was system access. All that we
	looked at had many key systems located under the cockpit where i
	could barely fit (i'm 6'1", 250lbs and need lotsa room). This makes
	it hard to do maintainance in port, and maybe impossible in
	boisterous seas.

	Also, all three Tayana's will need bowsprit work in the next few
	years (see another note in this conference about that)

        Another thing was the subsystem quality. While not at the awful
        level of the Young Sun we saw, it was not a Valiant either. The
        woodwork is simply the best. The plumbing quite good, the
        electrical OK, deck fittings OK, and overall quality OK. 

	If this note sounds scattered, it's because i've not been able to
	sort out all the details yet, so bear with me.

	The raw water cooling doesn;t seem to be as bad a thing as i
	thought. The repair person who showed us that particular boat said
	he worked on a 1925 schooner with raw water cooling and it still
	had the original engine! I'd still be inclinde to add a heat
	exchanger, though.

	I'll touch briefly on the boats we saw:

>	1   '85 Tayana-37, single owner, real clean, up and down the ICW
>	    type

	This was a beauty. It had storage way forward (about a 4' mini vee
	berth and shelves aft of the foc'sle - all for storage. Then a
	pullman to stbd that was quite roomy, lotsa drawers and lockers to
	port, then a small dinette area to stbd, then a nice nav station
	(no quater berth and no settee - a stand and navigate place). It
	had many extras and spare parts including replacement head gaskets
	for the Yanmar!

	Next to the Esprit, it's our favorite.

>	2   '81 T-37, 2 owner, already-been-everywhere, everything
>	    including a windvane

        It looks like it's been everywhere. Didn't show well, mildew &
        desel fumes, worm old schooner like steering, raw water cooled,
        nice cream hull, with elbow greese would fix up nice.
	
>	3   '85 T37, similar to #1, but with less equipment

	The strange fully enclosed quarter cabin. Hard to get in and out of
	the companion way (the cabin walls help block it), galley is
	compressed (again because of the enclosed aft cabin). Wouldn't
	consider.
	
>	4   '80 Esprit 37 ("Passe Partout", Bob Parshley, formerly from
>	    DEC), super well equipped

	Our favorite so far.

	If you've read this far, thanks for listening. If we decice on a
	Tayana, we will have to find one with the right layout for us.

    tnx,
    paul

re .45:

Valiant (the company) had all Valiants (the boats) and Esprits built by 
contractors until the present owners bought the company (in the mid-1980s I 
think) and moved it to Texas. Uniflite built Valiants (the boats) and, I am
reasonably certain, Nordic Yachts built the Esprits. Esprits were not
built with the (in)famous fire-retardant resin, as I recall, though I 
have heard of Esprits blistering badly, so perhaps they were.

Bulwarks are very nice and are also a significant safety feature.
Netting will likely keep sails aboard and may keep crew aboard. You
cannot, however, brace your feet/knees/body against netting or skimpy
toerails like you can bulwarks. I most appreciated this while securing a
headsail in fifteen foot seas 300 miles offshore at 0200 hours.
Moreover, if you have bulwarks, you can lay tools on the deck without
them sliding over the side at the slightest provocation. I've lost one 
tool over the side in the last 13 years. 

My estimates for the age when replacement should be considered:

	any diesel engine: 10 to 15 years
	mainsail, staysail: 10 years is very old if used much 
	through hull fittings: 10 to 20 years (if good bronze)
	epoxy barrier coat: the coating doesn't deteriorate if painted 
		-- water slowly permeates it though, which recoating 
		doesn't effect all that much
	rod rigging -- Navtec wouldn't give me an estimate other than 
		"long", which is why I added a fatigue indicating 
		fitting to our headstay
	regular rigging -- depends on where the boat is kept -- south 10 
		years, north 15 to 20 years (assuming proper toggling and 
		well-done swages)
	water heater -- our OEM tank lasted about 6 years, Allcraft 
		guarantees theirs for 10 years (as I recall), which is
		why we bought one in 1988
	
Re small cockpit: Just what you want for offshore sailing.

Re sea water engine cooling: The general consensus in the literature is 
that it is not a good thing. Sea water cooled engines must be run below 
optimum operating temperature to prevent salt deposits from forming. 
Modern engines are much more lightly built and much more heavily 
stressed than old engines, which is why old engines may last so long. 
IMHO, fresh water cooling is a non-negotiable requirement. By the way, 
according to some reputable engine manufacturers (eg, Caterpillar) an 
engine's life is directly proportional to the total fuel burned, which 
implies that running at less than full throttle prolongs life and also 
suggest more questions to ask the previous owner.

Re bowsprits: IMHO, not for me under any circumstances. When working 
forward handling sails or ground tackle, I want to be on deck where the 
footing is much more secure, not balanced on some narrow platform over the 
ocean. Ever wonder why the bowsprits on the Grand Banks fishing 
schooners were called "widow makers"? Plus, dockage, winter storage, and
mooring fees are often/usually charged on LOA, which can make a bowsprit
rather costly. A taller mast gives more sail area, too. And don't forget
that the bending loads on a bowsprit from anchoring can be extremely
large, which means that the bowsprit must be very, very strong. If the
bowsprit is supported by the headstay, then the headstay will be
subjected to larger long-term cyclic loads, shortening its life due to
increased fatigue. 

Re decks: In low latitudes, white decks are very bright. Gray reduces 
the glare considerably. I've always liked the gray Treadmaster 
(excellent non-skid) on Esprits. I'll probably do our deck that way some
day. 

Alan

    Raw water cooling:  I agree with Alan.  If your running in fresh water
    thats one thing... but in salt 'there is no substitute' for going with
    the heat exchanger etc.  IF your looking to prolong engine reliability
    and introduce an element of safety due to increased engine reliability.
    I don't think problems from an additional water pump etc. are bigger
    problems than the damage done by cooling with salt water.
    
    I doubt that your shaft zinc is doing much to protect the insides of
    your engine from salt water damage.  Its too remove and not in the same
    galvanic circuit as the cooling water jackets of your engine.
    
    Jeff

    
>    I doubt that your shaft zinc is doing much to protect the insides of
>    your engine from salt water damage.  Its too remove and not in the same
>    galvanic circuit as the cooling water jackets of your engine.

Actually, on my engine, you're right, since there is a rubber flex coupler
between the shaft and the gear box.

As to reliability, my engine is 20 years old, and it still runs fine. I've
done nothing extraordinary to protect the cooling system (e.g. flushing after
use, as suggested earlier.) 

Clearly, there is rust inside the engine. There are three possible rust-related
failure modes for the engine: 1) rust-through, and 2) rust-related flow
blockages, and 3) cooling efficiency reduction because of rust buildup. I'd
guess that 1) is unlikely because of the thickness of metal involved, especially
since a thick rust layer tends to protect the metal beneath it. Problem 2)
sounds more plausible, but I don't know much about how this works in practice.
One positive thing about raw water cooling: the system is constantly being
flushed, so particulates don't accumulate in the system. Problem 3) is a
function of the particular engine design. If there is plenty of margin in the
cooling system, this will not be a problem.

An additional reliability consideration: A raw water cooling system is less
likely to run dry because of a leak, since a small leak will simply result in
some air drawn in with the water (on the intake side) or some water dripping in
your bilge (on the exhaust side). The closed circuit on a fresh water cooled
engine will run dry after a while, even from a small leak.

Personally, I believe fresh water cooling is a plus, despite the above,
especially on today's lighter, less overbuilt engines.

--RS

    I think you hit it on the nose when you referred to todays more lightly
    built engines.  I am not aware that rust affords any particular
    protection to underlying metal.  I though rust was porous and flaked
    off so much that any real protection was virtually non existant.
    "Won't ever rust through".  Given enough time it will.. but maybe that
    is longer than you will use the engine.
    
    Good points about small leaks and particulates... nothing is ever all
    bad is it?
    
    Jeff
    

    One more thing... do you run you boat in salt or fresh water????!!!!
    
    Jeff

    Some other thoughts, mostly from the other type of boat.  
    On gas engines, mostly small block chevy's the difference between raw
    water cooling and closed loop fresh water is when the the engine is worn
    out the fresh water cooled one can be rebuilt.  The raw water one there
    is not enought metal.  Given the rebuil costs vs a new gas engine most
    people just replace.  So on high production volume gas engines fresh 
    water cooling is not a great need.  Diesels have a much different cost 
    factor.  From a poor memory, a 250hp diesel list is between $18-21K.  
    So rebuilds are ecnomically viable.
    
    One operation differance is if the raw water intake is blocked, ie
    picks up a plastic bag.  On the fresh water cooled engine.  Just idle
    the engine then shift into reverse, throttle up to clear the blockage.
    Then just idle in neutral until the temp falls.  On a raw water cooled
    engine this proceedure will crack the engine block and heads.  So after
    clearing the blockage you then wait until it cools down enought to
    restart.  The shop at the marina sees  2-3 cracked blocks a month 
    during the summer.    
    
    One other thing from personal experance.  It is not worth the effort to
    add fresh water cooling after one or two years use.  The amount of
    rust, scale and sand in the passages will cause over heating at high
    throttle settings.  The problem I had was a reduced passage size around
    one of the exaust ports.  The engine would not over heat, just boil the
    water and antifreeze mix in one spot.  The pressure then buils up and
    blows the water out then it over heats.  The fix was a new cylinder
    head and an acid bath for the manifold.
    
    So don't base your choice on the cooling system.  Just plan on the
    right amount replacement/rebuild cost when the time comes.
    
    KC
    

    re bowsprits:
    
    I have one and I'm not very happy with it. Mine does not allow to store
    the anchor  and I have to lift the anchor every time between the lifelines
    and bullwarks and store it on deck. 45lb !
    A bowsprit is a pain with manouvering. Moored alongside, usually long
    keel boats are put in forward with the rudder pointing to the wall.
    As soon as the boat reaches 45 deg, the bow almost touching the wall,
    then the rudder is moved to the other side and the boat is taken
    away from the wall with the engine going backwards. Try the same with
    a bowsprit ! (ha, explaining manouvering a boat in a foreign language
    is almost as complicated as the actuell manouvering)
    
    
    
    Peter

    Bulwarks are not my favorite under sail.  The weather deck finds that
    bulwark angled inboard and restricting movement.  One of the "best"
    arrangements in heavy weather has been (surprise) the Soverel's 12deg
    angled down deck which is nearly flat when heeled.  Coupled with its
    inboard shrouds (30in inboard) this deck and bow is a pleasure to work
    on in a blow. (relatively speaking).
    

    After having given our questions some more thought, and taking a good
    look at cost of replacing/providing cruising options on other boats, we
    have reached a decision. But first a few comments.

    I gave some thought to Alan's comments about being out on a bowsprit in
    a blow and wrestling down a jib, and i recalled just such an incident
    as a teenager on a 62' yawl. What i remember was plowing completely
    into and under the backside of a wave we were overcomming and thinking
    how neat it was. Ah youth... Today, some number of years later and a
    little less foolish (well, maybe; i'm trying to buy a boat after
    all...), i'd rather be on deck and inside a bow pulpit wrestling the
    same sail.

    If we find dealing with an anchor would be helped with a spritlette
    about the length of the anchor shank, we will fashion one, but for now
    a massive stemplate with two large rollers will do.

    On bulwarks. These i'd like. However if the primary reason is helping
    to keep one on board, then a replacement can be fashioned. In fact i've
    seen a boat in Great Harbor with this arrangement and it looked ok.
    One can take some nice teak planking (1x5" or so) and bolt it to the
    stantions from the bow pulpit back to about the forward lower shroud,
    and about 1-2" off of the aluminum toe rail. It will provide a way to
    help stop you from sliding overboard at the expense of not looking
    quite as clean as the real thing. While the question of the stantions
    being strong enough must be clearly addressed, with creative
    engineering i'm sure a solution could be found.

    Because almost all of our concerns can be addressed to one level of
    satisfaction or another, we have decided to make an offer on the Esprit
    '37. I'll tell you how it is accepted or not on monday. It's simply too
    good a deal to pass up.


    Up course we now have to learn how to buy a boat. For example:
	What is the process of events?
	Where can good financing be obtained?
	Who pays for what?
	What if the surveyer finds some important "must fix" problems?
	Who pays for delivery (i'm not sure i want to sail it up from
	    Annapolis in January)
	Does anyone know of a reliable surveyer in Annapolis?

    Anyway, thanks for the advice so far. Moving from a Pearson Ariel (26')
    to an Esprit 37 will be an enormous change for us, and i'm sure we'll
    have lotsa questions.

    The Esprit 37 may not be an "ultimate cruiser", but I'm not sure what
    is. With some significant work and preparation, it is certainly up to
    the job of getting a middle age couple around the Atlantic safely;
    assuming the middle age couple can get into good enough condition
    themselves...

    paul

re -.1

>>	What is the process of events?
		1) get survey and possibly sea trial
		2) apply for financing
		3) get financing and insurance
		4) close
		5) make it fully seaworthy
		6) sail it home
>>	Where can good financing be obtained?
		I don't know what's available, but you can find ads in boating
		magazines. Yegen is a company that advertises a lot.
>>	Who pays for what?
		This is between you and the seller. When I bought my boat,
		I paid for the survey, but the seller paid for the haul.
		The costs associated with the closing are typically paid
		by the buyer.
>>	What if the surveyer finds some important "must fix" problems?
		There's no way to deal with this until it happens. Typically
		one of the following happens: a) price reduction, b) seller
		fixes it before closing, c) deal goes through unchanged, or
		d) deal falls through. I'd guess d) is fairly rare, except
		if the nature of the discovery causes the buyer to no longer
		want the boat at all.
>>	Who pays for delivery (i'm not sure i want to sail it up from
	    Annapolis in January)
		Why not leave it there until April or May, and then sail it
		home? This is a LOT cheaper than trucking it to MA.
>>	Does anyone know of a reliable surveyer in Annapolis?
                Try asking at boat yards. Boat US also can give you a reference,
		but I'm not sure what the standards are to get on their list.

>>    One can take some nice teak planking (1x5" or so) and bolt it to the
>>    stantions from the bow pulpit back to about the forward lower shroud,
>>    and about 1-2" off of the aluminum toe rail.

		This will interfere with picking up moorings and dock lines,
                and possibly interfere with anchor handling. A narrow slot
                (1-2") is a potential hazard for broken toes, etc. If you're
		worried about staying on the boat, get a good harness and
		use it. If the boat only has single lifelines, you might want
		to add a second lifeline. My boat had a single lifeline
		attached low on the bow pulpit. I had it raised to attach
		higher on the pulpit (my jib is high enough to make this work),
		and I had a second lifeline added. I feel much more secure on
		the foredeck now!

--RS

    An update.

    The owner (Bob Parshley) has accepted the offer, the process of buying
    the boat is going full speed ahead (survey, financing, insurance,
    transport, etc).

    The euphoria of having the offer accepted lasted all of two hours
    before the nagging doubts set in: what's *really* wrong with the boat,
    i have so much to learn about diesel engines [like how to spell it
    correctly], how much more than a 26 footer is this going to cost, etc,
    but i wouldn't trade it for anything.
    
    tnx for the help,
    paul

    Imagine that you can "catscan" the boat starting from the very bow (or
    bowsprit), taking little slices of cross section.  As each element of
    construction comes into view, write up what you might do about it or
    with it, I.E. inspect it, tighten it, lubricate it, adjust it, clean it, 
    etc. 
    
    Make a list and organize into task types (cleaning tasks, adjustment
    tasks, etc).  Organize these subgroups by priority: What can I do now
    (offseason)?  What must be done before launching?  What must be done
    before serious sailing?  What can wait til later in the season?  What
    can wait til next year.
    
    This is fun (sort of) and is invaluable when you find an hour or two to
    work on the boat.
    
    It sure passes the time, until feet wet!
    

    
    	Another winter activity is to find all the owners manuals and stuff
    that was tossed by the previous owner (assuming non-anal-retentiveness)
    which may save time when something breaks in the summer. Examples:
    Engine and all it's goodies (what brand IS that seperator??), rig
    (Harken is great for support on their rollers), Electronics (EEEK),
    etc. etc. etc.
    
    	And of course: GET PSYCHED
    
    Congratulations, enjoy!
    
    Scott.

    Because we do intend to take the boat for a long offshore trip
    (Atlantic Circle), i figure it's about time to start collecting spares
    and in general getting into the skavenger hunt mode.

    The previous owners actually kept manuals for every piece of equipment,
    so I get to make copies of them, then read, organize and understand
    them. The boat owner's manual from Valiant is pretty complete as well,
    and even has an owner card for owner #3 (me) to fill in and return (the
    old address, of course). However, electrical and plumbing changes made
    since initial construction have not been added to the diagrams so i can
    do that as well.

    I don't intend to do much to the boat except to do normal maintainance
    and purchase a dodger. I want to use it for a year before I change
    anything. Just learning about the boat and prepping for summer will
    occupy me until a real early launch this year (i can't wait...). Then
    next year will be a bottom job (remove barrier coat, dry hull, new
    barrier), and prep for the '95 Marion BDA race, my third one.

    Anyone know anyone who wants a 1965 Pearson Ariel 26? (the listing is
    in the For Sale note)?

    One thing i'm learning is that boat yards seem to delight in putting it
    to your wallett.

    paul

    This string seemed as appropriate as any.

    My contract comes to an end this afternoon and i'd like to thank
    everyone here and say goodbye. Goodbye.

    I'm afraid to say that i'm going home to work full time on preparing
    Passe Partout for the Bermuda race, and so that Bill French and Scott
    Wagner get a nice clean boat to sail on... So from software engineer to
    boatwright (or in my case, probably boatwrong until i get it wright) i
    go.

    Sailing notes is surely one of the things about DEC i'll miss the most.
    I found lots of advice here, a great dinghy here, and of course, i
    found Passe Partout here.

    My e-mail address should be [email protected]. My home phone is
    508/365-6248, fwiw.

    thanks,
    paul

    (of course, if anyone hears about an OpenGL/Motif contract, give me a
    call)